Topic: Brexit - doesn't really seem to be a very good idea does it? (*)

[rob1966]

Someone in the audience did ask the question, why would Nissan need reassuring if Brexit was going to be a positive thing for them. No answer from the pro-Brexit panel members.

Starmer noted that Nissan bosses previously talked about wanting the same access to the EU market and what the implication of that was if they were now happy with the government's plans. Again, no clear answer given.

That Clark spoke for ages about Nissan without actually saying anything, just an absolute load of waffle, as he was never going to reveal what they've promised Nissan nor how much it is going to costs the country for them to stay.

It was good to see the small business owners telling the facts of what's going on, that they are having to cover the increased costs themselves but will pass them on to consumers.

[Priest078]

Question Time was much better this week . A lot of people will start to realise what they have done soon and regret it . All these figures about how well we are doing post Brexit are irrelevant until we actually invoke article 50 and leave .

[Jonny-B]

Yeah there's an article on Sky News saying May has outright told the boss of Nissan we're sating in the customs union.

The gov will never admit that as it weakens their hand.

[PaulF]

I know it's Tory thinking, but the taxes ( NI , VAT , income from employees) from companies like Nissan are important to the economy.  I'm sure there are multiple ways to spin it , but it may be that IF they subsidise Nissan (et al) in some way, it's cheaper than footing the unemployment bill, propping up a heavily declining area and the impact that has on the NHS. Ideally Nissan is a net contributer (I guess I mean total taxes are higher than subsidies) and the NHS benefits from Nissan staying.

[rob1966]

Question Time was much better this week . A lot of people will start to realise what they have done soon and regret it . All these figures about how well we are doing post Brexit are irrelevant until we actually invoke article 50 and leave .

I'm into my bikes and I was reading in the monthly mag I buy a feature on a guy in Norway who restores Kawasaki's. He said, with Norway being outside the EU, parts cost him more.  Things like this were never told when the leave lot where trumpeting the deal Norway have and how we could get the same. So many hidden costs that people just cannot afford.

[killer-heels]

I know it's Tory thinking, but the taxes ( NI , VAT , income from employees) from companies like Nissan are important to the economy.  I'm sure there are multiple ways to spin it , but it may be that IF they subsidise Nissan (et al) in some way, it's cheaper than footing the unemployment bill, propping up a heavily declining area and the impact that has on the NHS. Ideally Nissan is a net contributer (I guess I mean total taxes are higher than subsidies) and the NHS benefits from Nissan staying.

I dont think there is any doubt that even with a subsidy or tax reduction its still going to benefit the country more if Nissan stays then if it left.

[rob1966]

I dont think there is any doubt that even with a subsidy or tax reduction its still going to benefit the country more if Nissan stays then if it left.

GM, Honda, BMW, Jaguar Land Rover and any others are all now going to want whatever Nissan got and your point is a great bargaining tool to get exactly what they want.

[Trada]

Ed Conway
‏@EdConwaySky

Last night Apple quietly raised the UK prices of its computers to reflect the fall in the pound. So a 4K iMac that was £1,199 is now £1,449

Paul Lewis ‏@paullewismoney 5m5 minutes ago

Paul Lewis Retweeted Ed Conway

That's a 20% rise.

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

Yeah, I think that's likely.

I think we have to give credit to the government on the Nissan thing. It's not something I make a habit of, but if we are to survive this Brexit mess, then encouraging companies to stay here long-term is going to be vital. The Nissan announcement is a massive boost for the people of the North East and for the rest of the country.

if they had of done it years ago yes credit.

but why now?

subsidising or the eu suspecting we will be subsidising will just make trade negotiations a lot harder.

[rob1966]

Yeah, I think that's likely.

I think we have to give credit to the government on the Nissan thing. It's not something I make a habit of, but if we are to survive this Brexit mess, then encouraging companies to stay here long-term is going to be vital. The Nissan announcement is a massive boost for the people of the North East and for the rest of the country.

I think the government should be battered for the fact that they created the situation where they are having to make concessions to companies that had no intention of leaving the UK pre brexit.

[MichaelA]

Ed Conway
‏@EdConwaySky

Last night Apple quietly raised the UK prices of its computers to reflect the fall in the pound. So a 4K iMac that was £1,199 is now £1,449

Paul Lewis ‏@paullewismoney 5m5 minutes ago

Paul Lewis Retweeted Ed Conway

That's a 20% rise.

Basically parity with the dollar prices on the Apple US website.

[Trada]

Apple raises computer prices in UK

Apple has increased the prices of its laptop and desktop computers in the UK by hundreds of pounds.

On Thursday, the company unveiled new Macbook Pro laptops, with prices similar to the US after currency conversion and addition of UK VAT.

But the company also increased the prices of its older computer products, including the three-year-old Mac Pro, by hundreds of pounds.

One analyst said consumers should expect further price increases.

"Apple has to recalibrate prices after significant currency fluctuations, and since the EU referendum, UK prices are out of sync with the dollar," said Patrick O'Brien, analyst at the Verdict Retail consultancy.

"Apple has taken the hit up until now. While price increases won't look good to the consumer, it's difficult to blame Apple.

"Once you strip out UK sales tax (VAT) and the currency conversion, the new UK prices could still be viewed as fair."

A number of technology companies have increased their prices in the UK, reflecting the lower value of the pound.

Apple's least expensive laptop - the 13in Macbook Air, last updated in March 2015 - now costs £949, up from £849.

Its Mac Pro desktop computer - last updated in December 2013 - now costs £2,999, up from £2,499.

"Apple suggests product prices internationally on the basis of several factors, including currency exchange rates, local import laws, business practices, taxes, and the cost of doing business," the company told the BBC.

"International prices are not always comparable to US suggested retail prices."

Rival Microsoft has already announced UK price increases for some of its business services.

Earlier in October, the company said some service prices would go up by 22% in 2017, reflecting the pound's weakened value against the euro.

"We periodically assess the impact of local pricing of our products and services to ensure there is reasonable alignment across the region and this change is an outcome of this assessment," the company said.

Mr O'Brien said it was "inevitable" that more companies would increase the prices of products and services.

"Retailers are struggling with increased costs to import goods, and it's something they cannot afford to swallow themselves," he told the BBC.

"We will definitely see further price rises, so if people are in the market for big-ticket items such as laptops, it might be a wise idea to buy now rather than later."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-37799235?ocid=socialflow_twitter&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=twitter

[Andy]

I'm into my bikes and I was reading in the monthly mag I buy a feature on a guy in Norway who restores Kawasaki's. He said, with Norway being outside the EU, parts cost him more.  Things like this were never told when the leave lot where trumpeting the deal Norway have and how we could get the same. So many hidden costs that people just cannot afford.

Any negativity was considered Project Fear and shouted down. Or you were accused of being an "expert" and we all know it is best to disregard "experts", right?

People were horrendously badly informed, and couldn't be fucked to do any research as they were blinded by the bullshit from Nigel Frottage and his loony gang.

[reniformis]

I think we have to give credit to the government on the Nissan thing. It's not something I make a habit of, but if we are to survive this Brexit mess, then encouraging companies to stay here long-term is going to be vital. The Nissan announcement is a massive boost for the people of the North East and for the rest of the country.

Well, as I work for Vauxhall/Opel/GM, it looks like a good thing that the Tories are looking to protect the car industry in the UK. However, if the Little Quitlers of Sunderland get everything they want and I, as an equivalent worker at Ellesmere Port, get shafted despite being a remain voter in a remain area, doing what we were supposed to, I'll be more than a little pissed off.

I know it's Tory thinking, but the taxes ( NI , VAT , income from employees) from companies like Nissan are important to the economy.  I'm sure there are multiple ways to spin it , but it may be that IF they subsidise Nissan (et al) in some way, it's cheaper than footing the unemployment bill, propping up a heavily declining area and the impact that has on the NHS. Ideally Nissan is a net contributer (I guess I mean total taxes are higher than subsidies) and the NHS benefits from Nissan staying.

It's only (maybe) modern Tory thinking. They didn't give a shit in the 80's when it was coal and steel and shipbuilding.

[Libertine]

Interesting opinions from Vince Cable on the Nissan deal:

Cable told the Guardian: “The only way these big supply chain companies are going to commit themselves to Britain – and Nissan is the biggest – is that if they give them guarantees they are not going to be caught up in rules of origin problems, which is what happens if you leave the customs union.

“And if you stay in the customs union, which I think is what we’re talking about, what is the role of Dr Fox? Because it means you no longer have an independent trade policy.”

He added: “If you leave a customs union you, by definition, will have tariff regimes and have to validate all the flows of widgets going backwards or forwards. A customs union is not an incredibly big deal and it is not more radical than the single market. Turkey is in a customs union with the EU. But it does mean you can’t go round the world doing separate bilateral deals.”

Cable, who lost his seat at the last election, said the only alternative to staying in the customs union would be a specific agreement for the automotive industry, which the EU would be unlikely to want to negotiate.

“I am pretty certain the car industry will be operating together. The only alternative to what I have suggested is that they are going to get a separate sectoral agreement for cars. But I cannot see that happening,” Cable added. “Why would the EU want to do that? The same problems arise for aerospace, for pharmaceuticals. GSK yesterday was worrying about their supply chain. The only way to make the promise stick is to stay in the customs union.”

He said the decision taken by May and Greg Clark, the business secretary, to provide such assurances to the car industry would be “very tricky stuff for the Brexit people because the hardliners want us to leave the customs union as well as the single market”.

Cable said: “I was involved in discussions with Nissan in their last big round of investment decisions. Even under the coalition they were toying with doing it in France. I find it impossible to believe they would go ahead without some pretty copper-bottomed promises. These guys do not go making decisions on the basis of vague assurances. That is not the way they operate.”

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/oct/28/vince-cable-assurances-nissan-uk-customs-union-tariff

[Trada]

Surely inflation will go up. so many price hikes starting to happen.

The Guardian ‏@guardian 2m2 minutes ago

Morrisons puts Marmite price up 12.5%

[Yorkykopite]

This bloke has some sensible things to say.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/28/tony-blair-remain-voters-to-mobilise-against-brexit

[Trada]

This bloke has some sensible things to say.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/28/tony-blair-remain-voters-to-mobilise-against-brexit

He should do a dossier on it.

[PaulF]

subsidising or the eu suspecting we will be subsidising will just make trade negotiations a lot harder.

<conspiracy_theory>Maybe that's what May wants, for the EU to only offer us such an appalling deal, there's no way we can accept</conspiracy_theory>

Strangely, I don't remember anyone pre Brexit mentioning a trashed pound. It's an obvious likelyhood and with very clear consequences.  I'm sure it was mentioned, but got relatively little prominence. With the blessed advantage of hindsight it's been the clearest (financial) effect of Brexit.

ps off to stockpile Marmite and twigletts.
pps Someone told me during the unilever-tesco standoff that most ingredients for marmite are produced locally, true or bull?

[Lush is the best medicine...]

<conspiracy_theory>Maybe that's what May wants, for the EU to only offer us such an appalling deal, there's no way we can accept</conspiracy_theory>

Strangely, I don't remember anyone pre Brexit mentioning a trashed pound. It's an obvious likelyhood and with very clear consequences.  I'm sure it was mentioned, but got relatively little prominence. With the blessed advantage of hindsight it's been the clearest (financial) effect of Brexit.

ps off to stockpile Marmite and twigletts.
pps Someone told me during the unilever-tesco standoff that most ingredients for marmite are produced locally, true or bull?

from vague memory I can remember Frottage making a comment about the pound being overvalued, but not sure if that was the morning after

But do agree on May wanting a deal so bad that it cannot be accepted because it's crap

[Yorkykopite]

Of course they should be battered for creating this whole Brexit mess. But we can't just fucking wallow about it. Whatever happens, we have to make it work, and part of that - whether we eventually leave or not (and I hope that we don't) - is convincing the likes of Nissan and other large manufacturers to stay. There's no point just having a big sulk. Anyone has a moan about Nissan safeguarding the jobs of thousands because they want to score some political points is frankly a bit of a dick. This is good news. It is good news for the economy, it is good news for Theresa May's government, and more importantly, it is good news for the people of Britain, regardless of whether they are/were Brexit Wankers or not. Let's not paint it as some massive Conservative conspiracy or whatever. I can't stand May or her bunch of bigoted merry-men, but the Nissan thing is good for all of us.

I agree with that. But with a heavy heart. The deal with Nissan - and all the sweetheart deals which will follow - will empower capital against labour in the UK. Who knows what capital will demand from the government as "compensation" for staying in this country? We already know that EU labour laws are under threat. Who's to say the Minimum Wage won;t also come under pressure. Holiday allowances, pensions too? This is the foreseeable future. Brexit gives the whip hand to firms like Nissan, and there's very little we can do about it.

All the more laughable of course that the Labour leadership is now talking up "The People's Brexit".

[TepidT2O]

A possible explanation for the brexit vote?

[SP]

I can't stand May or her bunch of bigoted merry-men, but the Nissan thing is good for all of us.

There is still a caveat. I depends just what they have promised. There is still the possibility the May has written a blank cheque that the country could not afford to honour. There is a price too great to pay to save those jobs - albeit it is sufficiently high that the price would fund complete retraining and investment for replacement jobs (if the government were minded to spend that money).

[Johnnyboy1973]

https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/brexit-vote-explained-poverty-low-skills-and-lack-opportunities

It's pretty long but worth a read.

Counter:

http://tomdlondon.blogspot.co.uk/2016/10/who-is-to-blame-for-brexit-part-one-who.html?m=0

The typical Leave voter was not a Northern working class Mirror reader. They were Southern and middle class and read the Telegraph or the Mail.

The typical Leave voter was also white and elderly. Many would still remember the days that Britain had an Empire.

[killer-heels]

A possible explanation for the brexit vote?

You mean the explanation for the blame immigrant vote?

[reniformis]

What many don't seem to grasp when talking about triggering article 50 is that it's possible that it can be revoked. That's the next legal battleground.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-how-does-article-50-work-2016-7

It's an old article but still relevant. If we, the country, have a change of mind, eg as evidenced by a change of government before the leave date (probably March 2019) who disagree with the previous government about any previously proposed deal that hasn't been ratified by parliament, then we can revoke and remain in the EU.

But to say that's part of May's plan is rather stretching it. She wouldn't be denying a parliamentary vote on triggering article 50, a general election on the terms of Brexit, a better second referendum or generally trying to sort it on her terms before the GE in 2020 if that were the case. She's not some Machiavellian genius, it took her until the age of 60 to lead the tories after not being able to get get past Duncan Smith or Cameron. She stumbled into office when everyone else were tripping over their own feet, probably deliberately given what a poisoned chalice the position of PM during Brexit is. Basically she's an opportunistic c*nt and I wouldn't trust her to sit the right way round on a toilet.

[PaulF]

There is still a caveat. I depends just what they have promised. There is still the possibility the May has written a blank cheque that the country could not afford to honour. There is a price too great to pay to save those jobs - albeit it is sufficiently high that the price would fund complete retraining and investment for replacement jobs (if the government were minded to spend that money).

A blank cheque to Nissan , probably isn't all that much in the grand scheme of UK Plc. But it only works if it cause other large firms to believe that the UK government will ensure the terms of Brexit protect their interests.

[reniformis]

There is still a caveat. I depends just what they have promised.

I agree with this. I don't believe they've simply promised Nissan they'll write a cheque for any incured losses post-Brexit. I'd expect they've said they'll slash corporation tax, do a trade deal with the Japanese government for importing their materials more favourable than the EU would and hack away at workers rights and pensions whilst remaining in the customs union to minimise disruption to the running of the business. Probably the same for the Indian-owned JLR. The German-owned Mini and Vauxhall brands might not be so fortunate.

[killer-heels]

I agree with this. I don't believe they've simply promised Nissan they'll write a cheque for any incured losses post-Brexit. I'd expect they've said they'll slash corporation tax, do a trade deal with the Japanese government for importing their materials more favourable than the EU would and hack away at workers rights and pensions whilst remaining in the customs union to minimise disruption to the running of the business. Probably the same for the Indian-owned JLR. The German-owned Mini and Vauxhall brands might not be so fortunate.

If they are going to stay in the customs union then why would they look to cut tax as well? You imagine its a possibility IF the country doesnt get access.

[PaulF]

Maybe they just promised they'd make sure Moyes went to Newcastle?

[TepidT2O]

You mean the explanation for the blame immigrant vote?

No, it shows that those doing worst in society are those probably in employment, but at the bottom of the pile...

Perhaps explains why that group may have voted for leaving the EU.

This group perhaps the ones arguing that immigration had keep their wages low....

[killer-heels]

No, it shows that those doing worst in society are those probably in employment, but at the bottom of the pile...

Perhaps explains why that group may have voted for leaving the EU.

This group perhaps the ones arguing that immigration had keep their wages low....

How does that translate to communities where there wasnt much immigration? Many communities had nothing to fear or worry about and these working class communities still wanted curbs on immigrants. Why was the number of leavers not reflected in black and asian communities, who tend to be in cities who are most affected by EU immigration and apparently being undercut?

[reniformis]

If they are going to stay in the customs union then why would they look to cut tax as well? You imagine its a possibility IF the country doesnt get access.

Sorry, yeah, you're right. But in my mind, staying in the customs union means essentially nothing changes but for Nissan to come out with the PR yesterday when they could have kept their gob shut and watched the mackems panic and accept pay cuts and worse working conditions and the like in order to get the new orders doesn't make sense unless Nissan have been given other bribes.

[TepidT2O]

How does that translate to communities where there wasnt much immigration? Many communities had nothing to fear or worry about and these working class communities still wanted curbs on immigrants. Why was the number of leavers not reflected in black and asian communities, who tend to be in cities who are most affected by EU immigration and apparently being undercut?

I'm not in any way saying immigration DID depress the wages of is group.

But, because their wages remained stagnant compared to other groups in society, I can see how they might have looked for a convenient scapegoat, and the trend of immigration as the wage disparity grew seems to be an obvious one to latch on to.

As always, correlation does not denote causation. The fact that areas with the least immigration voted to leave, probably tells us that in areas with more immigration, it was quite obvious to people that immigrants weren't just pinching their jobs...

[redbyrdz]

What many don't seem to grasp when talking about triggering article 50 is that it's possible that it can be revoked. That's the next legal battleground.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-how-does-article-50-work-2016-7

It's an old article but still relevant. If we, the country, have a change of mind, eg as evidenced by a change of government before the leave date (probably March 2019) who disagree with the previous government about any previously proposed deal that hasn't been ratified by parliament, then we can revoke and remain in the EU.

There are mixed legal opinions on that, and as its untested since nobody's ever left the EU, i wouldn't pin my hopes on it. The EU might well say 'only with the consent of all member states', and the recent Canada trade deal issue showed that that is easier said than done.

[killer-heels]

I'm not in any way saying immigration DID depress the wages of is group.

But, because their wages remained stagnant compared to other groups in society, I can see how they might have looked for a convenient scapegoat, and the trend of immigration as the wage disparity grew seems to be an obvious one to latch on to.

As always, correlation does not denote causation. The fact that areas with the least immigration voted to leave, probably tells us that in areas with more immigration, it was quite obvious to people that immigrants weren't just pinching their jobs...

They were very well looking for a convinient scapegoat and that is and always will be immigrants. To me that illustrates either very little knowledge or levels of xenophobia in the white working class, hence the very crude thick or xenophobic/racist stereotypes i place on them.

In reality there are many reasons but i dont think its clear that economics and voting leave is fully linked. Many communities voted leave due to an eroding of what you would call a British way of life and culture. Stagnant wages could be one of the reasons but the eroding of British cultures was prevalent reasons in many Leave voters minds, be it rich or poor.

[TepidT2O]

They were very well looking for a convinient scapegoat and that is and always will be immigrants. To me that illustrates either very little knowledge or levels of xenophobia in the white working class, hence the very crude thick or xenophobic/racist stereotypes i place on them.

In reality there are many reasons but i dont think its clear that economics and voting leave is fully linked. Many communities voted leave due to an eroding of what you would call a British way of life and culture. Stagnant wages could be one of the reasons but the eroding of British cultures was prevalent reasons in many Leave voters minds, be it rich or poor.

There are other huge problems with the white working classes...

In education, they are (by quite a distance) the lowest performing sector of society.

Sure start was an attempt to change this.  But there is a huge nut to crack, how do you change the ambitions of a whole sector of society?  Culturally, educationally, emotionally... (btw, these are all things that I've always thought Liverpool addresses better than anywhere else. There has always been an idea that music, poetry, art are for everyone).

That's my aim for politics.  Addressing this single issue.  God knows how mind, but it's all linked to the Brexit vote...

[saoirse08]

Counter:

http://tomdlondon.blogspot.co.uk/2016/10/who-is-to-blame-for-brexit-part-one-who.html?m=0

Interesting figures. Little is said of middle class, politely voiced, home counties xenophobia - even though many more people who are economically comfortable and unaffected by migration voted to leave. 

This piece also articulates many things that have been bugging the fuck out of me since Brexit. And there are plenty. Especially fed up with middle class commentators telling us who we are and what we believe. We are not an amorphous mass of unthinking, uneducated racists, and we don't get all our opinions from the right wing tabloids. Many of us can think for ourselves. Anyway, as the piece says, the history of the working class is a history of migration:


I’m white and working class. I’m sick of Brexiters saying they speak for me (Btw, hate the term white working class - apart from that, this is quite good)

"Ordinary hard-working people have genuine concerns about immigration, and to ignore immigration is to undemocratically ignore their needs.” Other than the resurgent importance of jam, this is the clearest message we are supposed to take out of Brexit.

So concerned are we that the government’s hands are tied that it must send all the doctors back where they came from. It must crack down on students coming here to get educated in our universities in exchange for money. It must check teenagers’ teeth lest we accidentally extend compassion to a Syrian adult.

Who are “ordinary hard-working people” though? It seems the consensus following Brexit is that they’re the marginalised white working class; the people who have been left behind by modernity, who feel alienated by the “liberal metropolitan elite”. I’m a white man from the north-east, living in strongly Brexit-voting Middlesbrough, so you might expect me to tell you all off for looking down on us from your ivory towers. But the truth is that this outbreak of “the poor proles can’t help it” is both incorrect and patronising.

The working class mostly lack our own voices in the media. Instead, we are reported on. This reporting seems, even now, to believe that the true working-class identity is, as Kelvin MacKenzie put it in the 1980s, “a right old fascist”. Culturally insular, not interested in or smart enough to understand real news, generally afraid of people not like him (it’s always a him).

Migrants and native people of colour are stripped of their right to a working-class identity, and even cast as the enemy of the “real” (ie white) working class. I spoke to Marsha Garratt, a working-class, mixed-race woman who heads up the All In Youth Project, and she was cutting about the “underreporting of positive stories of solidarity between all members of the working class, including ethnic minorities”. Working-class history is migrant history, but we ignore that because it does not match what we believe to be authentic.

Likewise any of us who are white and born here, but refuse to blame migrants for the result of government policies, are cast as the “metropolitan elite” even if we’re earning the same amounts and living in the same towns. Working-class identity becomes necessarily and by definition anti-migrant.

Once everyone who doesn’t fit is excluded, those who remain are transformed from real people into weaponised stereotypes to be turned against those who resist the advance of jam-obsessed fascism. Even the complexity within people is stripped out as individuals are merged into a howling mass whom you must “understand” or risk losing your tolerant, liberal credentials.

We’re not the only people with concerns. It’s just that everyone else seems to have them on our behalf, out of the charity of their hearts. The white middle classes are just as likely to be disturbed by brown faces or foreign accents as the white working classes are, but they are generally educated enough to realise they can’t just come out and say it. Working-class poverty, framed as the result of the strains these new arrivals place on our generous social safety net, provides the cover for them to object to immigration even though they are unharmed by it.

But our other “genuine concerns” – such as school and hospital funding, benefits and disability payments, the crushing of industries that formed the backbones of our local economies – are ignored or dismissed out of hand. They are cast as luxuries, an irresponsible “tax and spend” approach, or they are turned back on us as evidence of our own fecklessness and lack of ambition. When we say “we need benefits to live because you hollowed out our towns in pursuit of a flawed economic doctrine,” we are castigated for being workshy, and told we only have ourselves to blame. If we alter our complaints to blame foreign people it’s a different story. “I can’t get a council house because they’ve all been sold to private landlords,” gets nothing. “I can’t get a council house because they’ve all gone to bloody Muslims,” gets on the front page of the tabloids.

Just as we are given identities as good or bad working-class people based on whether we adequately perform our roles as good little workers or whether we insolently insist on being disabled, unemployed or unionised, so our authenticity as working-class people depends on our use for political ends. Are we salt of the earth yeomen, or skiving thickos milking the system, or drains on the already stretched infrastructure? That all depends: are we kicking out immigrants or privatising a clinic today?

If we only matter to politicians when we can be used as to defend old bigotries about hordes of eastern Europeans stealing our women and poisoning our jam, then we don’t matter at all.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/25/white-working-class-brexiters-politicians-bigotry

[killer-heels]

There are other huge problems with the white working classes...

In education, they are (by quite a distance) the lowest performing sector of society.

Sure start was an attempt to change this.  But there is a huge nut to crack, how do you change the ambitions of a whole sector of society?  Culturally, educationally, emotionally... (btw, these are all things that I've always thought Liverpool addresses better than anywhere else. There has always been an idea that music, poetry, art are for everyone).

That's my aim for politics.  Addressing this single issue.  God knows how mind, but it's all linked to the Brexit vote...

It very well may be but the reality was that much of the middle classes and educated folk voted for Brexit as well. Its quite clear that xenophobia and racism will never cease to exist and what came out the vote was that whilst i knew it was present, i never realised this country was as massively as racist it showed.

[TravisBickle]

They were very well looking for a convinient scapegoat and that is and always will be immigrants. To me that illustrates either very little knowledge or levels of xenophobia in the white working class, hence the very crude thick or xenophobic/racist stereotypes i place on them.

In reality there are many reasons but i dont think its clear that economics and voting leave is fully linked. Many communities voted leave due to an eroding of what you would call a British way of life and culture. Stagnant wages could be one of the reasons but the eroding of British cultures was prevalent reasons in many Leave voters minds, be it rich or poor.

http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com/stumbling_and_mumbling/2016/10/whose-racism.html

 An interesting take on some of what you say, there.