Topic: Westworld - HBO's next thingamajig

[abs-ibs]

Was not expecting the ending of that episode at all. Wow.

Anthony Hopkins is a fucking awesome actor. Can play so many different roles within one character. Brilliant stuff so far

[JLStretton]

Proper award winning stuff that last scene, Hopkins is killing it excellent stuff.

[red_lfc_costello]

great episode, loved it. Starting to shape up a little now!

[Funky_Gibbons]

I thought that episode was going a little slow and then that scene at the end was amazing, the revelation about Bernard and Anthony Hopkins at his sinister best. Brilliant stuff.

[Mr Mingebag Squid]

"Thank you for your foundation, it really helped my sister-"

"One more word and I'll slit your throat. I'm on my fucking vacation."

Episode 4, I think.

Ah cool! Missed that!

[oojason]

Level B83 is filmed inside the abandoned Hawthorne Plaza Mall in Southern California

It doesn't look like anything to me...




a nice pickup - and answer from Jonathan Nolan - over on reddit Westworld:-

https://www.reddit.com/r/westworld/comments/5d0zee/the_real_question_no_one_is_asking/da1zzsl/

[Brian Blessed]

Spoiler

Nope.

He's not completely off the hook but he's stopping the board from using the technology for a far more sinister use.

[close]

Spoiler

Is he, or is he acting in self interest? I'm not sure that's clear at the moment.

[close]

[Sir Psycho Sexy]

watched all 7 over the past couple of days. Fucking brilliant TV.

[Xxavi]

As a person who tries to stay away from "theories", the revelation was a shock to me. By the end of it, I thought one of the 2 intruders wasn't real human but couldn't tell who it was.

[Trada]

Spoiler

So now we know Bernard is a robot under Fords controlled.

Why was he having those late night chats with Dolores and telling her to delete them?

Is Ford telling him? maybe Arnold?

Or is he really already self aware after all I imagine his intelligence setting are high and hes worked there for years. And followed the orders to kill Theresa so he won't blow his cover.

[close]

[tubby]

Spoiler

So now we know Bernard is a robot under Fords controlled.

Why was he having those late night chats with Dolores and telling her to delete them?

Is Ford telling him? maybe Arnold?

Or is he really already self aware after all I imagine his intelligence setting are high and hes worked there for years. And followed the orders to kill Theresa so he won't blow his cover.

[close]

Spoiler

Alternate timelines, Bernard is modeled on Arnold and those chats with Delores are Arnold earlier in an earlier timeline before he died?  Or something like that.

[close]

[vagabond]

Spoiler

So now we know Bernard is a robot under Fords controlled.

Why was he having those late night chats with Dolores and telling her to delete them?

Is Ford telling him? maybe Arnold?

Or is he really already self aware after all I imagine his intelligence setting are high and hes worked there for years. And followed the orders to kill Theresa so he won't blow his cover.

[close]

Spoiler

The chats he was having with Dolores seemed to take place in the same location that he took Teresa in the end there. So either Bernard is having those conversations there and then having his memory of the place wiped or that wasn't Bernard...

[close]

[saoirse08]

As usual, some great stuff in the spoilers and much of what I've had an inkling about the narrative(s) and the characters are fitting into place nicely now.

This is such a rich and intellectually stimulating series, though, without being overwhelmingly gripping or tense. Episode 6 & 7 really pushed the plot along nicely too. I love this series because, for a whole week in between episodes, it makes me think about a number of concepts and ideas I'm quietly obsessed about. Things such as memory, the self, how we understand and make sense of the world around us, the very nature of reality itself, the development and evolution of human consciousness. What it is to be human. The advancement of AI technology. And also the morality of enjoying vicariously the violent delights of gaming or screen violence etc.

But what I enjoy most about this particular TV series is that it is unashamedly literate, too, with nods to Alice in Wonderland, Shakespeare, Milton and Mary Shelley's gothic classic, Frankenstein, among many. It also has classical mythology antecedents too with allusions to the maze (labyrinth) and the underworld. That's why I love the character of Maeve...

Spoiler

Perhaps she is a (post?) modern Prometheus - remember Mary Shelley's Frankenstein is subtitled: 'A Modern Prometheus'. Whereas the Greek Titan of the myth stole fire from the Gods and Dr. Frankenstein imbued his creature with the spark of life - taking on the role of God - Maeve takes control of the Gods' (humans) 21st century equivalent: algorithms/code. Karl Marx also admired the myth of Prometheus and saw the character's revolutionary act of giving fire to humans as way of allowing them to break free of the Gods' control, enabling them to be in charge of their own material destinies on earth through this transformative technology. Will Maeve, armed with the knowledge of the Gods and perhaps the transformative technology, lead the tortured, exploited and abused android masses in an uprising against their masters?

[close]

[Funky_Gibbons]

Spoiler

Alternate timelines, Bernard is modeled on Arnold and those chats with Delores are Arnold earlier in an earlier timeline before he died?  Or something like that.

[close]

Spoiler

That could be it. I was really confused when Delores would suddenly be talking to Bernard naked when we last saw her in the park with William, I kept thinking "don't they miss her". I reckon we could be looking at least two different timelines here, maybe more.

[close]

.

[Trada]

Spoiler

That could be it. I was really confused when Delores would suddenly be talking to Bernard naked when we last saw her in the park with William, I kept thinking "don't they miss her". I reckon we could be looking at least two different timelines here, maybe more.

[close]

.

Spoiler

I thought the times they were naked was if they were checked and questioned as normal at night . but clothed if they are taken out suddenly or in the day. like the one this week forgot her name who was beaten up and shot.   

[close]

.

[vagabond]

Spoiler

That could be it. I was really confused when Delores would suddenly be talking to Bernard naked when we last saw her in the park with William, I kept thinking "don't they miss her". I reckon we could be looking at least two different timelines here, maybe more.

[close]

.

Spoiler

I may be remembering wrong but I feel like each time we have Bernard and Dolores alone, having one of their secret conversations, she is always shown clothed.

[close]

[Funky_Gibbons]

Spoiler

I may be remembering wrong but I feel like each time we have Bernard and Dolores alone, having one of their secret conversations, she is always shown clothed.

[close]

Spoiler

I'm sure there was one where she was naked, might have been with Ford though

[close]

[bobadicious]

E7

Spoiler

I watched Futureworld again the other week after not seeing it for years and I think they maybe getting some of the story from that, where they were replacing the rich guests, politicians etc with hosts and slowly taking over

Maybe thats why when they are shown pictures of the outside it doesn't look much different from now because at some point the story will move to the outside world.

[close]

Mind blown. Is this the end game?

Spoiler

world domination?

[close]

[Schmidt]

Spoiler

Finally watched this after being thwarted for a whole two days by other commitments!

Brilliant episode and worth the wait, that "What door?" moment gave me goosebumps.

No one has brought up the fact that Ford said "the situation demands a blood sacrifice" to Theresa, the same phrase that the woman from the board used when she and Theresa were plotting against Ford. Is it as simple as Ford using the bandit tied up in the bed to monitor their conversation? Or is something more going on?

[close]

Spoiler

So now we know Bernard is a robot under Fords controlled.

Why was he having those late night chats with Dolores and telling her to delete them?

Is Ford telling him? maybe Arnold?

Or is he really already self aware after all I imagine his intelligence setting are high and hes worked there for years. And followed the orders to kill Theresa so he won't blow his cover.

[close]

Spoiler

I'm starting to get the impression that at some point Ford stopped making big strides with the hosts in the park, instead leaving them basically at a final "version" for the other programmers to make incremental improvements to without every really changing them much. The bulk of his work since then has gone into his other projects, including Bernard, who I'd bet is way beyond anything we've seen in the park so far. As others have suggested it's possibly at this point that he can basically replace anyone he wants with a host, given enough time to study the person.

[close]

[Brian Blessed]

Spoiler

Finally watched this after being thwarted for a whole two days by other commitments!

Brilliant episode and worth the wait, that "What door?" moment gave me goosebumps.

No one has brought up the fact that Ford said "the situation demands a blood sacrifice" to Theresa, the same phrase that the woman from the board used when she and Theresa were plotting against Ford. Is it as simple as Ford using the bandit tied up in the bed to monitor their conversation? Or is something more going on?

[close]

Spoiler

I'm starting to get the impression that at some point Ford stopped making big strides with the hosts in the park, instead leaving them basically at a final "version" for the other programmers to make incremental improvements to without every really changing them much. The bulk of his work since then has gone into his other projects, including Bernard, who I'd bet is way beyond anything we've seen in the park so far. As others have suggested it's possibly at this point that he can basically replace anyone he wants with a host, given enough time to study the person.

[close]

Spoiler

I believe he was essentially letting Theresa know he has eyes and ears wherever there are robots

[close]

[Schmidt]

Spoiler

I believe he was essentially letting Theresa know he has eyes and ears wherever there are robots

[close]

Spoiler

Yeah probably, it'd certainly explain his demeanour when Theresa and the QA team were giving that little demonstration.

It's funny that even with such a big reveal there are still so many questions. What's the new storyline? What is the maze? Do the two tie together? How many time frames are playing out? Even the Mauve stuff is hard to pin down, does Ford know it's happening and did he incite it, or is it a consequence of Arnold's work that seemingly goes against what Ford wants to achieve? It feels like Ford wants to keep the hosts free from higher thought whereas Arnold felt the exact opposite, and while Arnold may be long gone his code is still there, like Pandora's box, waiting to be opened.

[close]

[vagabond]

Spoiler

My wife is convinced that Ford himself is a host. He was Arnold's greatest creation and turned on his creator. The maze is symbolic for whatever weakness Arnold programmed into Ford and the Man In Black is trying to find it to bring down Ford's Old Testament fiefdom. The family of hosts that are supposed to be a representation of Ford's past are actually him imagining what his past would have been like if he were human. One piece of evidence - Ford's seeming ability to issue commands to hosts telepathically. Perhaps there are some elaborate gestures or voice commands that he has developed with his hosts but, especially in the scene where he shows off his power to Theresa, he seemingly stopped the world without issuing any commands. He just thought it and it happened.

[close]

[Brian Blessed]

Spoiler

My wife is convinced that Ford himself is a host. He was Arnold's greatest creation and turned on his creator. The maze is symbolic for whatever weakness Arnold programmed into Ford and the Man In Black is trying to find it to bring down Ford's Old Testament fiefdom. The family of hosts that are supposed to be a representation of Ford's past are actually him imagining what his past would have been like if he were human. One piece of evidence - Ford's seeming ability to issue commands to hosts telepathically. Perhaps there are some elaborate gestures or voice commands that he has developed with his hosts but, especially in the scene where he shows off his power to Theresa, he seemingly stopped the world without issuing any commands. He just thought it and it happened.

[close]

Spoiler

Interesting. Maybe the MiB saying he was going to cut Ford open to see what was inside him was a reference to that. Although Ford apparently ages, which throws a spanner in the works.

[close]

[Conocinico]

Spoiler

Perhaps there are some elaborate gestures or voice commands that he has developed with his hosts but, especially in the scene where he shows off his power to Theresa, he seemingly stopped the world without issuing any commands. He just thought it and it happened.

[close]

Spoiler

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/4kSGkGKwp9U" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/4kSGkGKwp9U</a>

If you watch again @5:00 his index finger is raised.

[close]

[vagabond]

Spoiler

Interesting. Maybe the MiB saying he was going to cut Ford open to see what was inside him was a reference to that. Although Ford apparently ages, which throws a spanner in the works.

[close]

Spoiler

If you watch again @5:00 his index finger is raised.

[close]

Good points. Back to the drawing board.

[Gili Gulu]

Spoiler

My wife is convinced that Ford himself is a host. He was Arnold's greatest creation and turned on his creator. The maze is symbolic for whatever weakness Arnold programmed into Ford and the Man In Black is trying to find it to bring down Ford's Old Testament fiefdom. The family of hosts that are supposed to be a representation of Ford's past are actually him imagining what his past would have been like if he were human. One piece of evidence - Ford's seeming ability to issue commands to hosts telepathically. Perhaps there are some elaborate gestures or voice commands that he has developed with his hosts but, especially in the scene where he shows off his power to Theresa, he seemingly stopped the world without issuing any commands. He just thought it and it happened.

[close]

Spoiler

When Ford is talking to Theresa in the cellar, there was something about the way he says "..you people.." that got me thinking that he might not be human.

"You people" as in outsiders meddling in his affairs, or "You people" as in 'you others who are real people'.

As for him aging, Ford could simulate that by undergoing "repairs" in the same way hosts do after being shot.

[close]

[Redcap]

Spoiler

I think the show will have prematurely jumped the shark if Ford turns out to be a host.

On the other hand, any number of staff could well be hosts. I wouldn't be surprised if Stubbs turned out to be one. In fact, I'm betting on it.

[close]

[zabadoh]

Spoiler

I was thinking that Ford reacted like a host in "this does not compute" mode by standing completely still when they did the Killer Clem demo.

edit:  Upon re-watching, Ford isn't completely still during that scene.  His eyes are darting about and there are some other facial movements, but his body is almost motionless.

[close]

[Funky_Gibbons]

Spoiler

Interesting. Maybe the MiB saying he was going to cut Ford open to see what was inside him was a reference to that. Although Ford apparently ages, which throws a spanner in the works.

[close]

Spoiler

An interesting twist I've seen is that maybe the Man In Black is actually William from another timeline (we know William works for a large company and in one of the previous episodes someone thanked the MiB for the work his foundation did for his sister).

Maybe William is trying to finish the work Dolores started?

[close]

[Wigwamdelbert]

Spoiler

An interesting twist I've seen is that maybe the Man In Black is actually William from another timeline (we know William works for a large company and in one of the previous episodes someone thanked the MiB for the work his foundation did for his sister).

Maybe William is trying to finish the work Dolores started?

[close]

Spoiler

I am more convinced that the MiB is actually William's intended future father in law

[close]

[Brian Blessed]

Spoiler

An interesting twist I've seen is that maybe the Man In Black is actually William from another timeline (we know William works for a large company and in one of the previous episodes someone thanked the MiB for the work his foundation did for his sister).

Maybe William is trying to finish the work Dolores started?

[close]

Spoiler

I'm completely on board the two timer theory myself, and think they are the same person.

[close]

[Sir Psycho Sexy]

Spoiler

Maybe William is trying to finish the work Dolores started?

[close]

Spoiler

The one thing that puts me off Wiliam being the younger MiB is that we see the MiB with Dolores in the first episode. "30 years I've been coming here and you still don't remember me" and then it's implied he rapes her, though not shown. Something big must have happened between them if he does something like that. n top of that, it also raises the simpler question about if there is any alternative time period, or at least, which scenes are and which scenes aren't, as Dolores is still there while the MiB is.

[close]

[Chavvie]

Spoiler

I am more convinced that the MiB is actually William's intended future father in law

[close]

Good shout

Also,

Spoiler

No way is Ford a host

[close]

[Red_Irishman]

Spoiler

The one thing that puts me off Wiliam being the younger MiB is that we see the MiB with Dolores in the first episode. "30 years I've been coming here and you still don't remember me" and then it's implied he rapes her, though not shown. Something big must have happened between them if he does something like that. n top of that, it also raises the simpler question about if there is any alternative time period, or at least, which scenes are and which scenes aren't, as Dolores is still there while the MiB is.

[close]

Spoiler

She was probably completely reprogrammed and had her memory erased after she strayed from her loop with William 30 years earlier.

Also, is it conclusive that he raped her? Can't remember. Perhaps after 30 years rambling the park the MIB/William has become less sensitive to the hosts and came to the realisation the are just machines.

[close]

[OsirisMVZ]

Watched 1-7 this week as I had some time off.

Spoiler

The reveal of Bernard as an android was spoiled for me, but that entire scene is amazing and I watched it several times in reaction videos on YT to see people slowly work it out for themselves.

I believe this is set across two timelines. William is the Man in Black. When Bernard went into Ford's private room with Theresa he couldn't see the door, but then we've already seen him in that room before with Dolores, haven't we? Bernard is an android replicate of Arnold, who we see in the past interviewing Dolores and other androids. He discovers Dolores is obtaining free will and lets her grow. This will have a big impact later on, as something she does will change William and he'll begin his more villainous approach, trying to discover how she awakened. William starts with a white hat, symbolic of a hero, and now wears all black, the self-chosen villain of the game to see it through. He'll be an anti-villain. I'm not convinced that in the present at ep 7 he is aware that the AI has become self aware. Maybe he'll be the first guest to discover this.

I believe that Arnold died but I don't know how yet. I think its too cheap to have him be killed by Ford. We know Ford is a sick fuck after what he did to Theresa and I think maybe Dolores kills Arnold somehow, resulting in Ford sticking her in a horrible loop where she is raped and killed after witnessing her family be slaughtered every day until the end of days, as revenge.

Ford's utter humiliation of Theresa was beyond savage, this is a closed-off woman that he sent Bernard after so he could learn more about her. When she attempted a powerplay on him, he not only revealed that the only man she had feelings for was a robot (this meant he was designed to do this), but orders him to execute her, a complete show of 100% control.

Ford obviously likes playing God, I think Arnold wanted the AI to be free outside of WW and co-exist with humanity but Ford wasn't ready for that and wanted everything within. Expect some bullshit to come soon because Arnold now is literally the Deus Ex Machina of this show, the god in the machine. I think the maze is freedom for the androids. I don't think its a doorway or anything like that. I have this joke that at the end of the maze is an android dressed up in period drama clothes reciting Shakespeare in a loop. There's a violent delight at the violent end of the maze, an awakening for the hosts.

I also think Bernard will reawaken as Arnold and kill Ford. I haven't been able to link together why I think "Arnard" will kill Ford but at the same time not have his death be directly related to Arnold, but hey there's more to come from Hopkins' character. Perhaps Ford wants to replace everyone outside of Westworld, in the real world, with a host, and he can play God with the planet as his playground, and that's not what Arnold intended.

Maeve will be the leader of the robo revolution, but also a martyr. She'll go too far and be killed off just before the spark becomes a flame. I think Dolores tries to do this early on in the past and is given a hard reset, but in time (aka a couple more seasons) take on the role of revolution leader that hears the voice of God, all Jean D'Arc like.

[close]

[Chavvie]

Watched 1-7 this week as I had some time off.

Spoiler

The reveal of Bernard as an android was spoiled for me, but that entire scene is amazing and I watched it several times in reaction videos on YT to see people slowly work it out for themselves.

I believe this is set across two timelines. William is the Man in Black. When Bernard went into Ford's private room with Theresa he couldn't see the door, but then we've already seen him in that room before with Dolores, haven't we? Bernard is an android replicate of Arnold, who we see in the past interviewing Dolores and other androids. He discovers Dolores is obtaining free will and lets her grow. This will have a big impact later on, as something she does will change William and he'll begin his more villainous approach, trying to discover how she awakened. William starts with a white hat, symbolic of a hero, and now wears all black, the self-chosen villain of the game to see it through. He'll be an anti-villain. I'm not convinced that in the present at ep 7 he is aware that the AI has become self aware. Maybe he'll be the first guest to discover this.

I believe that Arnold died but I don't know how yet. I think its too cheap to have him be killed by Ford. We know Ford is a sick fuck after what he did to Theresa and I think maybe Dolores kills Arnold somehow, resulting in Ford sticking her in a horrible loop where she is raped and killed after witnessing her family be slaughtered every day until the end of days, as revenge.

Ford's utter humiliation of Theresa was beyond savage, this is a closed-off woman that he sent Bernard after so he could learn more about her. When she attempted a powerplay on him, he not only revealed that the only man she had feelings for was a robot (this meant he was designed to do this), but orders him to execute her, a complete show of 100% control.

Ford obviously likes playing God, I think Arnold wanted the AI to be free outside of WW and co-exist with humanity but Ford wasn't ready for that and wanted everything within. Expect some bullshit to come soon because Arnold now is literally the Deus Ex Machina of this show, the god in the machine. I think the maze is freedom for the androids. I don't think its a doorway or anything like that. I have this joke that at the end of the maze is an android dressed up in period drama clothes reciting Shakespeare in a loop. There's a violent delight at the violent end of the maze, an awakening for the hosts.

I also think Bernard will reawaken as Arnold and kill Ford. I haven't been able to link together why I think "Arnard" will kill Ford but at the same time not have his death be directly related to Arnold, but hey there's more to come from Hopkins' character. Perhaps Ford wants to replace everyone outside of Westworld, in the real world, with a host, and he can play God with the planet as his playground, and that's not what Arnold intended.

Maeve will be the leader of the robo revolution, but also a martyr. She'll go too far and be killed off just before the spark becomes a flame. I think Dolores tries to do this early on in the past and is given a hard reset, but in time (aka a couple more seasons) take on the role of revolution leader that hears the voice of God, all Jean D'Arc like.

[close]

That's a vivid imagination you've got 

[Funky_Gibbons]

Spoiler

The one thing that puts me off Wiliam being the younger MiB is that we see the MiB with Dolores in the first episode. "30 years I've been coming here and you still don't remember me" and then it's implied he rapes her, though not shown. Something big must have happened between them if he does something like that. n top of that, it also raises the simpler question about if there is any alternative time period, or at least, which scenes are and which scenes aren't, as Dolores is still there while the MiB is.

[close]

Spoiler

Doesn't William first meet Delores when she drops a can on the floor when she's loading her horse and it rolls along the floor and he picks it up and gives it back to her? When we see the MiB meeting her he's standing in the exact spot where the can rolls to as it's one of those scenes that is repeated at the park every day.

He hands her the can back and say "sweet, but not as sweet as you Delores" quite affectionately.

[close]

[vagabond]

Spoiler

The one thing that puts me off Wiliam being the younger MiB is that we see the MiB with Dolores in the first episode. "30 years I've been coming here and you still don't remember me" and then it's implied he rapes her, though not shown. Something big must have happened between them if he does something like that. n top of that, it also raises the simpler question about if there is any alternative time period, or at least, which scenes are and which scenes aren't, as Dolores is still there while the MiB is.

[close]

Spoiler

I would be shocked if the MiB actually raped Dolores. I think the scene was cut because we're still being kept in the dark about his full motivation.

[close]

[Sir Psycho Sexy]

Spoiler

Doesn't William first meet Delores when she drops a can on the floor when she's loading her horse and it rolls along the floor and he picks it up and gives it back to her? When we see the MiB meeting her he's standing in the exact spot where the can rolls to as it's one of those scenes that is repeated at the park every day.

He hands her the can back and say "sweet, but not as sweet as you Delores" quite affectionately.

[close]

Spoiler

right ... but then proceeds to drag her along the floor to the barnhouse and well, the rest is yet to be revealed (if at all)

basically i don't know what's fully going on i suppose

[close]

[OsirisMVZ]

Spoiler

right ... but then proceeds to drag her along the floor to the barnhouse and well, the rest is yet to be revealed (if at all)

basically i don't know what's fully going on i suppose

[close]

Spoiler

I think he scalped her.

[close]