Topic: Roberto Firmino

[Eeyore]

When we won against Villa that would have been 11 goals without a game and 9 without assist but you didn't write anything.

People are judging him on result and not performance.

Firmino is reminding me of Gini when he first came. When we won, Gini unnoticed play and movement were central to our controlling the midfield. When we lost or drew,  it was what did he do?

Firmino should score more, and there is a false narrative about his play as evidenced by him having the 3rd most shots in the league but it comes across a bit silly to bring it up after this result, considering he was denied by mm

Would you say Bobby is in good form and looking confident.

[Clayton Bigsby]

Would you say Bobby is in good form and looking confident.

No I wouldn't to be honest.

[ac]

No I wouldn't to be honest.

I think Bobby played well yesterday but as Mignolet once said said Firmino just isn't a killer in the box - that's just how he is. I think we rely too much on Salah and Mane for goals at times and so it would be good to have a top class Firmino type player that can alternate with the Brazilian when he is struggling for goals.

[Ghost Town]

He's brilliant.

But what's going on with the pink, bubbly hair? My girlfriend is not impressed.

It's the dodgiest barnet since his last dodgy one

Honesty those tight poodle perms look rank on anyone except terry mac

[Ghost Town]

He's magic

Wand of a right foot?

[liverbloke]

Really no goals in his last 12 League games, no assists in his last 10 League games and his key passes have dropped from around 2.2 to 1.2 per game. He is now taking more shots has a higher Xg but is scoring far less goals. We all love Bobby but his output has fallen off a cliff lately.

As I said for me his form has dropped off and teams are working harder to deny him space.

We'd be a lesser force without him in the side full stop.

Players do more than assists, passes and goals - even though they are VERY important factors of course - like take space, make space, draw defenders, upset defensive tactical positioning and just cause merry mayhem by them being on the pitch.

Sometimes I think if a player is maybe having a dip in form but the team is winning and becoming champions then it can't be all that bad.

[Hazell]

The cold hard facts are that his impact on games is dwindling. I think it is a combination of his form dropping off and teams becoming more tactically aware of Bobby.

I don't think that's a fact.

[Hazell]

''We don't think about Bobby scoring nor are we worried about him not scoring, we need him for other things, he was outstanding today in what we need him to do'' Klopp

The cold hard fact is that the manager absolutely loves and appreciates the importance of his play and what he contributes and does for this side and the system implemented. Which very few players in the world, if any, can replicate exactly. Can he score more, sure, but his numbers overall in his career have stayed at similar levels precisely because of the position he plays now, or has played in the past. He wears the number 9 but he isn't a centerforward. He's in essence a hybrid attacking midfielder, who drops deep as it is, to perform a role in order to provide better opportunities, situations to our two wide forwards.

The impact of having him in the side can't be underestimated IMO, he's absolutely brilliant in what he brings to the side (as per Klopp's comments after the Leicester game) and he's an absolute joy to watch. We certainly wouldn't have won the league without him, goals or no goals. Even yesterday, when he should have scored, his all round play was actually fine and the team in general really should have scored four or five but for wayward finishing.

You can probably tell, I absolutely love him and it's not really problem for me that's he's not scored at Anfield this season, it's more of an anomaly than anything else. Obviously I'd like him to score more but it really wouldn't bother me if he has a similar season next year if we carry on winning trophies, particularly if his contribution to it is at a similar level to this year.

And lest we forget, goals wise he scored the winners in the semis and the final of the Club World Cup

[FilthyBloke]

He’s quality. A true piece of klopps jigsaw.
His goals tally could be higher but I think it’s only noticeable in those spasmodic games where salah and mane forget how to shoot. It’s those games where we need a traditional number 9. Fox in the box etc.

But he’s key for me. Mane and salah wouldn’t be half as effective if bobby wasn’t playing.

The lack of cover and options is for another thread.

[Eeyore]

I don't think that's a fact.

Pretty much every metric for League games shows a decline though. He is scoring fewer goals he has 8 compared to his best season of 15, His assists have stayed around the same at 7. His key passes this season are 1.4 per game compared to his best season which was 2.2. He is making far fewer passes 31.2 per game compared to 44.1. He is making fewer tackles and fewer attempted tackles 1.9 compared to 3.2.

Bobby is making fewer interceptions .2 per game compared to a peak of .7 per game. He is making more unsuccessful touches.

As I say I think it is a combination of Bobby's form being a little off and the opposition targetting him because of how important he is to the way we play. Maybe we will need to tweak things slightly tactically to get more out of Bobby.

[Clayton Bigsby]

But he’s key for me. Mane and salah wouldn’t be half as effective if bobby wasn’t playing

In my opinion, Salah and Mane are bonafide top 5 wide forwards in Europe and personally I'd have them at 2 and 3 respectively(behind Mbappe).

I think, though unintentional, you do them a disservice by saying this

[aw1991]

Pretty much every metric for League games shows a decline though. He is scoring fewer goals he has 8 compared to his best season of 15, His assists have stayed around the same at 7. His key passes this season are 1.4 per game compared to his best season which was 2.2. He is making far fewer passes 31.2 per game compared to 44.1. He is making fewer tackles and fewer attempted tackles 1.9 compared to 3.2.

Bobby is making fewer interceptions .2 per game compared to a peak of .7 per game. He is making more unsuccessful touches.

As I say I think it is a combination of Bobby's form being a little off and the opposition targetting him because of how important he is to the way we play. Maybe we will need to tweak things slightly tactically to get more out of Bobby.

I think Firmino is a player who is hard to quantify. Can his goal scoring form improve? Probably, but it's not very important. What is important is what he does without the ball, as well as the small things he does with it.

Bobby not scoring is okay. If the team as a whole score less, then look towards him

[FilthyBloke]

In my opinion, Salah and Mane are bonafide top 5 wide forwards in Europe and personally I'd have them at 2 and 3 respectively(behind Mbappe).

I think, though unintentional, you do them a disservice by saying this

I dunno. He scored less than 60 goals in his 179 games before joining us.
His scoring here has been phenomenal and I think that’s down to the front three collectively.

[Fromola]

Normally if Firmino is struggling for a goal Mo or Mane will step up and vice versa. The problem now is Firmino isn't really scoring at all so if Mane and Salah are having an off day then you're relying on keeping a clean sheet because goals are hard to come by.

How often have we dominated games this season but been left sweating at the end because we couldn't finish the game off?

[Hazell]

Pretty much every metric for League games shows a decline though. He is scoring fewer goals he has 8 compared to his best season of 15, His assists have stayed around the same at 7. His key passes this season are 1.4 per game compared to his best season which was 2.2. He is making far fewer passes 31.2 per game compared to 44.1. He is making fewer tackles and fewer attempted tackles 1.9 compared to 3.2.

Bobby is making fewer interceptions .2 per game compared to a peak of .7 per game. He is making more unsuccessful touches.

As I say I think it is a combination of Bobby's form being a little off and the opposition targetting him because of how important he is to the way we play. Maybe we will need to tweak things slightly tactically to get more out of Bobby.

Where are you getting these stats from? Saying his impact on games is dwindling is really more of a subjective thing than anything else.

Not that they aren't important but those at the club will have access to far more detailed information than anything your or I can obtain and they will have people who can interpret them better than you or I.

The most important thing is that the team performs to a high level and I don't think there's been much doubt about that this season? I don't know about you but for me, whenever he doesn't play, there's usually a noticeable drop off in the performance of the team. Origi's a good player but can't replicate Firmino's ability to make our attack one of the best in the world.

You say his form has dropped off, I actually think his performances in recent games have been really good, he was excellent on Wednesday against Brighton, for the first goal in terms of closing down the space for Brighton from their goal kick and then letting the ball go for Salah to score but also that was a situation where he took out two/three of players which allowed Salah to play in Williams (he was fouled in the process but the ref didn't play advantage for some reason and brought it back for a free kick) and he also played in Oxlade-Chamberlain down the left with a brilliant one-two and won the ball back on the edge of the Brighton area at one stage in the second half which probably no one else in the league would have done. Yesterday too, yeah he should really have scored that chance but the biggest point for me is always going to be whether the team played well enough to win (we absolutely did) and there was nothing in their performance that would have me worried about Firmino. Some of his play in the box was joyous, especially given how crowded it was at times.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Normally if Firmino is struggling for a goal Mo or Mane will step up and vice versa. The problem now is Firmino isn't really scoring at all so if Mane and Salah are having an off day then you're relying on keeping a clean sheet because goals are hard to come by.

How often have we dominated games this season but been left sweating at the end because we couldn't finish the game off?

You fuckers have had a really hard time this year haven't you.


38 1-0 victories with goals all scored off a players arse in the final 3 seconds of each match is enough for me.

Loads of people in here are just showing how little they understand about the game & how it is played.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

You fuckers have had a really hard time this year haven't you.


38 1-0 victories with goals all scored off a players arse in the final 3 seconds of each match is enough for me.

Loads of people in here are just showing how little they understand about the game & how it is played.

Hallefuckingluyah. The bloke has been negative all year about every single.thing known to man

[killer-heels]

You fuckers have had a really hard time this year haven't you.


38 1-0 victories with goals all scored off a players arse in the final 3 seconds of each match is enough for me.

Loads of people in here are just showing how little they understand about the game & how it is played.

Id take that many wins. Maybe we should do that next season?

[Eeyore]

Where are you getting these stats from? Saying his impact on games is dwindling is really more of a subjective thing than anything else.

Not that they aren't important but those at the club will have access to far more detailed information than anything your or I can obtain and they will have people who can interpret them better than you or I.

The most important thing is that the team performs to a high level and I don't think there's been much doubt about that this season? I don't know about you but for me, whenever he doesn't play, there's usually a noticeable drop off in the performance of the team. Origi's a good player but can't replicate Firmino's ability to make our attack one of the best in the world.

You say his form has dropped off, I actually think his performances in recent games have been really good, he was excellent on Wednesday against Brighton, for the first goal in terms of closing down the space for Brighton from their goal kick and then letting the ball go for Salah to score but also that was a situation where he took out two/three of players which allowed Salah to play in Williams (he was fouled in the process but the ref didn't play advantage for some reason and brought it back for a free kick) and he also played in Oxlade-Chamberlain down the left with a brilliant one-two and won the ball back on the edge of the Brighton area at one stage in the second half which probably no one else in the league would have done. Yesterday too, yeah he should really have scored that chance but the biggest point for me is always going to be whether the team played well enough to win (we absolutely did) and there was nothing in their performance that would have me worried about Firmino. Some of his play in the box was joyous, especially given how crowded it was at times.

The main site I have used for the stats is https://www.premierleague.com/players/13511/Roberto-Firmino/stats?co=1&se=54.

I am the same as you, I love watching Bobby play and clearly we play better as a team when he plays. I would just love us to tweak the system to make life a bit easier for Bobby and allow him to be more involved.

I think he suffers a bit when we play the Fab-Hendo-Gini axis. I think it is no coincidence that the outlier in terms of Bobby's scoring rate was when Oxlade-Chamberlain was in the side prior to his injury. From a game management point of view Fab-Hendo-Gini I think it offers us a lot of control. However, I think the lack of midfield thrust and runners makes Bobby's life a bit harder than it needs to be.

At times, we struggle to play vertical passes in to Bobby. I wouldn't be surprised if that is why we seem to be interested in Thiago.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Id take that many wins. Maybe we should do that next season?

That'll be the plan 

[Komic]

He was amazing yesterday, his ability to control the ball whilst jumping is ridiculous.

Also he has scored at Anfield in the league, but because it was against the Mancs they disallowed it for a "foul" on De Gea

[killer-heels]

The main site I have used for the stats is https://www.premierleague.com/players/13511/Roberto-Firmino/stats?co=1&se=54.

I am the same as you, I love watching Bobby play and clearly we play better as a team when he plays. I would just love us to tweak the system to make life a bit easier for Bobby and allow him to be more involved.

I think he suffers a bit when we play the Fab-Hendo-Gini axis. I think it is no coincidence that the outlier in terms of Bobby's scoring rate was when Oxlade-Chamberlain was in the side prior to his injury. From a game management point of view Fab-Hendo-Gini I think it offers us a lot of control. However, I think the lack of midfield thrust and runners makes Bobby's life a bit harder than it needs to be.

At times, we struggle to play vertical passes in to Bobby. I wouldn't be surprised if that is why we seem to be interested in Thiago.

Keita played 3 or 4 to Firmino in the final third when he came on.

[Oskar]

He's a quality player going through a lean spell in front of goal at Anfield. It happens, his influence isn't dwindling and his level of performance has not dropped to a level where anyone should be concerned. He was very unlucky not to score yesterday but his luck will change.

[Eeyore]

Keita played 3 or 4 to Firmino in the final third when he came on.

I think Bobby really benefits when we play Keita, or Oxlade Chamberlain pre-injury. I think Matip helps as well because he looks to carry the ball and ping it in to the front men whereas the other centre backs prefer to go long to the wings.

This season Bobby's shooting accuracy is down, and he has missed twenty big chances in the League. I think that may be because he is less involved in games. Strangely as our number of team passes has gone up Bobby's has dropped by almost a quarter. I think Bobby is one of those players who loves to be involved.

[Hazell]

The main site I have used for the stats is https://www.premierleague.com/players/13511/Roberto-Firmino/stats?co=1&se=54.

I am the same as you, I love watching Bobby play and clearly we play better as a team when he plays. I would just love us to tweak the system to make life a bit easier for Bobby and allow him to be more involved.

I think he suffers a bit when we play the Fab-Hendo-Gini axis. I think it is no coincidence that the outlier in terms of Bobby's scoring rate was when Oxlade-Chamberlain was in the side prior to his injury. From a game management point of view Fab-Hendo-Gini I think it offers us a lot of control. However, I think the lack of midfield thrust and runners makes Bobby's life a bit harder than it needs to be.

At times, we struggle to play vertical passes in to Bobby. I wouldn't be surprised if that is why we seem to be interested in Thiago.

Thanks for the link. I don't really like getting into statistical debates as the club employs people with PhD's in Theoretical Physics - a chancer like me has no idea about the level of detail they go into to interpret statistical date and use it to improve the team (whatever it is, it's working).

It's a fair point about Oxlade-Chamberlain (and Keita). Klopp's favoured midfield means we don't Oxlade-Chamberlain's thrust and running that Firmino can play into (like the first goal in the 4-3 game against Man City in 2018) but it's usually fine, the midfield offers enough and allows Robertson and Alexander-Arnold the support they need to play further forward than they Otherwise might. For Firmino, it just means a slight difference in what support he can give to the midfield.

I think the main point I was trying to make is that from watching us this season, I haven't actually seen a drop in his performance levels, just a in his actual goal return. I'm with Klopp's comments after the Leicester game in that respect. And having for most of my life watched Liverpool sides with various deficiencies and wanting so much more from them, we've legitimately got a side that's one of the best (only Rafa's side comes close) ever and Firmino's vital to it. Add to that he's a genuine joy to watch, I can't really complain about the odd thing here and there (although it might seem an odd thing to say about someone's goal return). I'm just enjoying the ride.

[Ginieus]

Do you think Bobby suffers more when you had Mane and have Salah gunning for golden boot? Take that shot in first half yesterday when Salah goes for flory but Pope comes off his line quickly. Firmino was practically 2 yards from the goal line if Salah had played him in instead.

I'm not sure the front 3 would work so well if Firmino was as selfish as the others and probably why they like him so much, he is so willing to do the hardwork to help the team.

[tubby]

I don't think it's to do with the tactics or the personnel, it's just that Bobby has always been an inconsistent finisher.  There's so much else to his game that's important to the way we play that it doesn't really matter though.

[Eeyore]

I don't think it's to do with the tactics or the personnel, it's just that Bobby has always been an inconsistent finisher.  There's so much else to his game that's important to the way we play that it doesn't really matter though.

In his first 3 seasons Bobby scored more goals than his xG suggested he should do. Last season he scored 12 but his xG was 13.74, this season he has scored 8 but with an xG of 16.28.

[tubby]

In his first 3 seasons Bobby scored more goals than his xG suggested he should do. Last season he scored 12 but his xG was 13.74, this season he has scored 8 but with an xG of 16.28.

Yup, inconsistent.

[Asam]

Firmino is over thinking things at the moment, no one disputes his value to the side, he needs to score goals for his own self image because if it continues he will lose even more confidence

[Roger Federer]

In his first 3 seasons Bobby scored more goals than his xG suggested he should do. Last season he scored 12 but his xG was 13.74, this season he has scored 8 but with an xG of 16.28.

Doesn’t this suggest that both he and the team does a whole lot right, just that he’s been exceptionally unlucky infront of goal? Just like some players ”run hot” (eg Vardy in the first half of the season, Greenwood right now), Firmino appears to ”run cold”.

[Eeyore]

Doesn’t this suggest that both he and the team does a whole lot right, just that he’s been exceptionally unlucky infront of goal? Just like some players ”run hot” (eg Vardy in the first half of the season, Greenwood right now), Firmino appears to ”run cold”.

Possibly but it isn't just the number of goals he has scored that has dipped. For the 3 seasons prior to this Bobby had the same shot accuracy percentage each season of 45%. This season he is below 40% for the first time in his Liverpool career. As players hit their peak you expect their shot percentage to go up.

In 17/18 Bobby scored 15 League goals from 84 shots. This season he has scored 8 from 100 shots. The biggest thing though is that it is not as if Bobby is now taking a lot more low percentage shots. In 17/18 he scored 15 with an xG of 10.76. This season he has scored 8 with an xG of 16.28.

As I said earlier Bobby has now gone 10 league games without a goal and 12 without an assist. Pretty much all of his metrics are in decline.

[Fromola]

You fuckers have had a really hard time this year haven't you.


38 1-0 victories with goals all scored off a players arse in the final 3 seconds of each match is enough for me.

Loads of people in here are just showing how little they understand about the game & how it is played.

I'll take a win any way it comes but when profligacy cost you games it becomes a problem (like Atletico tie where we go out to a mistake but missed chance after chance to kill the tie).

The other factor is if you can get games won early it saves on mental and physical energy over a season, rather than left clinging on and having to dig deep every week.

[Barrow Shaun]

A little digression perhaps but I don't get people's obsession with 'assists' these days. It's a new optastat/whatever thing anyway.
Take Steve McMahon's contribution to that goal v Arsenal years ago (mentioned on other threads) and by the 'assist' definition it was Beardsley's assist. How the hell can anyone say McMahon didn't do the crucial assisting I will never know. Another one (I think from this season, perhaps the 2.0 v Watford) where Salah back-flicks the ball in from a yard very late on to confirm the win, I think it was Origi who completely fluffed his shot leading to the ball going to Salah. But Origi gets the 'assist' for that???
I'm just saying that 'assists'stats can be bollocks as they don't tell the whole story.

[Knight]

It'd be super interesting to see passing maps for the whole season and compare them to previous seasons. I suspect we're going wide a lot more, and we're creating from wider areas lots more. That means Firmino is going to be less involved in terms of passes, key passes and assists. I suspect his pressing numbers are down because we press less as a team (but more efficiently) and his tackle/interception numbers are down because we have lots more of the ball. In short, his decline is a function of the way the team is playing.

Having said that, in terms of goal scoring, he's definitely finished less well this this season, as the XG to actual drop-off demonstrates. But he's also been unlucky and his confidence is probably at a lower ebb in front of goal right now. I'd love to see Minamino become a legitimate alternative to Bobby in the team. It'd lower the burden on him and also provide some healthy competition for places.

[aw1991]

The other factor is if you can get games won early it saves on mental and physical energy over a season, rather than left clinging on and having to dig deep every week.

I don't get this comment, are you suggesting we haven't won enough games early on this season?

I don't get looking at stats like xG and assists when examining Firmino. Klopp himself went out and said that it isn't all that important if he scores or not, and what is important is how he create chances for others:

https://www.bt.com/sport/news/jurgen-klopp-talks-up-roberto-firmino-despite-anfield-goal-drought-continuing

Wanting more from him is okay, but falling on stats to suggest that he is having a bad/average season is doing him a massive injustice. He is still one of the first names one the teamsheet and one of the most complete players in the world

[Redknight60]

One for the stats guys is Xg chain, it gives the total xg of possession involving the player so not just who has the shot or plays the last pass, pretty good stat when evaluating Firminos strength.

De Bruyne 34.83
Salah 29.64
Sterling 29.09
Firmino 27.08
Mahrez 26.73

In pretty good company. He’s also 4th in the league in Npxg (xg minus penalties) just on a cold streak in terms of finishing.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Think that's nine parts post-fact bullshit, to be honest. If he had had a whole load of lucky scuffs undeservedly going in you wouldn't be saying this. You're only saying it because he's had the most anomalous season from a forward I have ever seen. To say it isn't an anomaly is idiotic; far far shitter attackers score at least one goal at home in a season. Hell, non-strikers manage it fairly often. He would have to be the worst attacker ever to lace up his boots in the PL for this to be anything other than an anomaly, and he clearly ain't that.

The thing about anomalies is that as anomalous as they are, they can happen. It's a shame it's happened to one of our attackers, but that's how what we call luck tends to roll. You can't legislate for it.

Anomalies work both ways. His finishing in 2017/18 was one, to be perfectly honest. He'll never have another goal-scoring season like that. Equally he'll never have another one where he doesn't score a single league goal at Anfield. His true goal-scoring level is somewhere in between.

He's not a natural finisher; never has been, never will be. It's not an "anomaly" that he's missed shit loads of chances for that reason. The best finishers in the world still miss easy chances. Firmino will miss more than most at the elite level. It's stat, xG driven "bullshit" served up on a wafer-thin waffle to think otherwise. And I for one ain't eating it.

Thankfully he's not only in the team to score but it's still something he has to do much better at. It's not even the chances he's missing, it's the fact he doesn't get on the end of any crosses either. That brilliant driving run from Robbo was begging for our central forward to be on the end of it. You even saw Klopp mouth "Bobby!" with a kicking action after it. That doesn't show on an xG chart, but it's an opportunity missed.

[plura]

A little digression perhaps but I don't get people's obsession with 'assists' these days. It's a new optastat/whatever thing anyway.
Take Steve McMahon's contribution to that goal v Arsenal years ago (mentioned on other threads) and by the 'assist' definition it was Beardsley's assist. How the hell can anyone say McMahon didn't do the crucial assisting I will never know. Another one (I think from this season, perhaps the 2.0 v Watford) where Salah back-flicks the ball in from a yard very late on to confirm the win, I think it was Origi who completely fluffed his shot leading to the ball going to Salah. But Origi gets the 'assist' for that???
I'm just saying that 'assists'stats can be bollocks as they don't tell the whole story.

Just because assists exist doesn’t mean other factor in the game are not important, or that they shouldn’t get more appreciation in statistics and from the supporters.

So if there are other metrics or factors that still are quantifiable that we could promote then great. But I do like the fact that we have assists. As it can show that Salah for example not only contributes a lot of goals but also assists. And this shows that there is more to his game than a selfish goal scorer.

[Barrow Shaun]

Just because assists exist doesn’t mean other factor in the game are not important, or that they shouldn’t get more appreciation in statistics and from the supporters.

So if there are other metrics or factors that still are quantifiable that we could promote then great. But I do like the fact that we have assists. As it can show that Salah for example not only contributes a lot of goals but also assists. And this shows that there is more to his game than a selfish goal scorer.

At no time did I say other factors/stats are not important. My point is that they (assists stats specifically) can be misleading.