Topic: The Expanse - James S A Corey

[kaesarsosei]

Overall I really like The Expanse, however I thought the last two seasons had a definite dip compared to what came before. But Seasons 2-4 especially are very good, and the second half of season 1 also.

The final season had a touch of GoT season 8 about it, in that it felt kind of rushed, but at least it was overall done well.

I hate shitting on Trek so much, and I know its a completely different kind of sci-fi, but the difference in quality between this and Discovery/Picard is stark.

[Macphisto80]

So, if you've only watched the show, could you carry on with the last couple books without missing much or being confused with any potential changes?

[ChrisOH]

Spoiler

Honestly, I don't think it was rushed per say - maybe apart from the transition from the final battle to the negotiation table. The character decisions and the storyline still made sense, unlike say Game of Thrones, where character decisions became jarring at best

That said, it was just missing so much. We had so many teasers for the protomolecule/other alien guys stuff with absolute zero answers. I know the books have/will expand on this but if that is the end of the TV show, then meh.

I've seen snippets that the production company/actors are willing to carry it on. Surely that can't be the end?

[close]

Still, it's one my favorite TV shows ever.

[kaesarsosei]

Spoiler

Honestly, I don't think it was rushed per say - maybe apart from the transition from the final battle to the negotiation table. The character decisions and the storyline still made sense, unlike say Game of Thrones, where character decisions became jarring at best

That said, it was just missing so much. We had so many teasers for the protomolecule/other alien guys stuff with absolute zero answers. I know the books have/will expand on this but if that is the end of the TV show, then meh.

I've seen snippets that the production company/actors are willing to carry it on. Surely that can't be the end?

[close]

Still, it's one my favorite TV shows ever.

You have literally described a rushed ending, and also agree with what I said about GoT?

[ChrisOH]

You have literally described a rushed ending, and also agree with what I said about GoT?

Spoiler

My comment about it being rushed was aimed at the content that was there and wasn't directly aimed at your post. Sorry if it seemed that way. Obviously the conclusion of the TV has been rushed, which is why they have 'ended' it before the books.

[close]

[RedSince86]

Such a Meh season, it's like Amazon lost all heart with it and decided to put the budget towards Wheel Of Time and other new shows.

Worst season of the lot, seemed rushed which is expected with only 6 episodes.

[boots]

I agree Red, so much so Ive abondoned it. After 1 episode...

Ive read all the books anyways.

[blert596]

This has probably been my favourite program over the last few years but ended strangely. There's not many series that don't aim to go out with a last (usually decent) hurrah, but this season just seemed to flatline the whole way through.

I've not read the books but probably will now, as there seems that there's so much more that the could have/should have done.

Saying that, I still enjoyed the whole "experience" that this brings to the small screen.

[Gili Gulu]

I think there's going to be one-off movies.

The parts of this last season on Laconia that didn't seem to go anywhere will be picked up in the future.

[Macphisto80]

I agree with the consensus that the final series felt rushed. It felt like the last episode needed at least two previous to it to set that all up and build the tension. It just felt a little flat with no sense of the stakes. It'd be like starting up Mass Effect 2 and proceeding to the  last 'Suicide Mission', which is sort of what the finale came across as being like a last level of a video game with a cheat code on so you couldn't lose. Also, I think the actor playing Inaros was a bit shit. He just came across as a bit of a cartoon villain with zero gravitas or menace. I think the show went off the boil when the intrigue of the Proto Molecule lore got replaced by the war between Marcos, the Belters and Earth.

Still, overall an amazing show. Not the disaster of the last season of GoT by comparison by any stretch of the imagination. I think that would be massively unkind to it, and at least it got the chance to be finalized after SyFy criminally cancelled it. Non of the characters got butchered at the very least, and they left it open for what will almost certainly be more to come. I don't think this show is finished and will continue with another spin off series, or a direct companion or even a film or two. 

[kaesarsosei]

Also I wonder how much the stuff with Cas Anvar played into this? Is it possible Amazon were worried that was a can of worms and wanted to cut bait ASAP?

[RedSince86]

Also I wonder how much the stuff with Cas Anvar played into this? Is it possible Amazon were worried that was a can of worms and wanted to cut bait ASAP?

I think it was the LoTR white Elephant at Amazon Studios.

The first season of LOTR has a ridiculous $450 million budget, i'm sure Wheel Of Time has a decent size budget as well.

Looks like the budget was cut for the final season and why we got this shortened rushed stripped down version. 

[lobsterboy]

Been one of my favourite shows ever but the final season was poor. Rushed and simply didn't do it justice.

[Macphisto80]

They'll return to it. Hopefully in a similar manner that Joss Whedon was allowed to with Firefly. I'd take a trilogy of films with decent production value behind it. I think I'm reasonably content because, as I said, at least we got what we got, and there's still a very good possibility of getting more. They haven't sabotaged the characters or the story like the final season of GoT did. It can still go forward and be added to.

[newterp]

Just about finished with the books (halfway through the last one - Leviathan Falls) - how does it stack up?

Book were great - though sometimes confusing.

[Macphisto80]

Just about finished with the books (halfway through the last one - Leviathan Falls) - how does it stack up?

Book were great - though sometimes confusing.

Compared to the show? The last 3 books take place 30 years or so after the show ended. The show just ends without really resolving any of the protomolecule or other aliens stuff, and only touches on Laconia. Not sure what the issue is on why they didn't continue on. If it was the time jump, all they had to do is just give the main actors some minor prosthetics, dye their hair grey or whatnot, and it would pass. They take anti aging drugs in the books as a way of explaining traversing space anyway, so that's that covered.

[Armand9]

well shit, been waiting for the final season for ages and thought fuck it, it's been ages, check wiki and see when that shit is dropping....

only to find it dropped fuckinga ages ago 

not sure what happened there, i like to binge rather than do shit weekly so presumably i was waiting for it to air the last episode before downloading it all and totally fucking forgot about it

anyway, was ok, tho tellingly the most interesting shit that i wanted to see was the short passage at the start of each episode about laconia

the protomolecule arc (up to the establishment of the ring) was fantastic and some of the best sci fi on tv

after that it was still a quality show but pretty pale in comparison - the fact i always hated the character of naomi and even more her limp ass son didn't help cos now i've got that twat added to naomi that i couldn't stand seeing on screen and didn't give a flying fuck for any of their content, was hoping naomi would get offed at some point in earlier seasons and wanted the kid offed as soon as he showed up as a weekly character

still, when you look at the cast of great characters from holden, amos to bobby and my favourite drummer (defo not in the last season enough) and many more, they could carry the show despite a story arc i didn't really care for

so yep, sad it's all done now but it really needed to get back to the protomolecule stuff or something of that ilk to capture the magic of first bunch of seasons

on a side note i liked the easter egg of all the soldiers in the assault team that dropped to medina in cargo flotsam with amos and bobby had names from famous sci fi characters from Ripley to Mass Effect's Shepherd (they pull up a list and you can read them all on that), was a cool nod

[Kashinoda]

Only recently finished this too, still easily one of my favourite shows but another one guilty of having a short final season and rushing everything - no doubt that's on Amazon but it's very disappointing.

The final episode alone could have easily been 3 episodes and borrowed the 'teleport where the story needs to be' mechanic from the last season of Game of Thrones too. Kinda jarring when the show has always emphasised how vast space is. 

I fucking hate that good Sci Fi will never have the viewing numbers to match, it's a bit of a mircale this got 5.5 seasons. I think I'n gonna have to read the final 3 books, for those interested here's a thread which goes through the book differences up to season 6 - luckily not a huge deal:
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheExpanse/comments/s45vvv/showbook_differences_through_babylons_ashes/

[Schmarn]

Started this a couple of months ago on the recommendation of others here as I do like a good bit of sci-fi. Thought I’d made a mistake early on as I found Miller’s character very irritating (halfway across the solar system and cocky American pricks are still smarter than the natives). But the series really took off with the proto-molecule story and the competing interests of Earth, Mars and the Belters.

Up to season 4 now and will definitely finish it. As with a lot of sci fi it does have some problems (the politicians are cartoonish at times) and a lot of it looks like it’s filmed on green screen (not unlike BSG) but the core gang and the Belters are great particularly Drummer.

[Kashinoda]

Started this a couple of months ago on the recommendation of others here as I do like a good bit of sci-fi. Thought I’d made a mistake early on as I found Miller’s character very irritating (halfway across the solar system and cocky American pricks are still smarter than the natives). But the series really took off with the proto-molecule story and the competing interests of Earth, Mars and the Belters.

Up to season 4 now and will definitely finish it. As with a lot of sci fi it does have some problems (the politicians are cartoonish at times) and a lot of it looks like it’s filmed on green screen (not unlike BSG) but the core gang and the Belters are great particularly Drummer.

Filmed on a green screen? Come on The production values in the show are top tier with plenty of practical sets and effects (in addition to VFX obviously). It's a big step above BGS which was still good for it's day.

[Riquende]

Started this a couple of months ago on the recommendation of others here as I do like a good bit of sci-fi. Thought I’d made a mistake early on as I found Miller’s character very irritating (halfway across the solar system and cocky American pricks are still smarter than the natives). But the series really took off with the proto-molecule story and the competing interests of Earth, Mars and the Belters.

Up to season 4 now and will definitely finish it. As with a lot of sci fi it does have some problems (the politicians are cartoonish at times) and a lot of it looks like it’s filmed on green screen (not unlike BSG) but the core gang and the Belters are great particularly Drummer.

I didn't mind Miller at all, it's the pair of Holden and Naomi Nagata (to use the name she's referred as all the damn time) that stop me ranking this perfectly.

Holden I don't hate, but when I picture him in the show, he's slouched against a doorway, overalls around his waist, drinking a coffee. Not all sci fi protagonists have to be big damn heroes, but there's got to be a middle ground?

Naomi Nagata was such a debbie downer in the first 2 seasons. She constantly complained about everyone else's plans whilst offering nothing herself (and doing nothing wasn't an option), she unilaterally stole the hidden protomolecule, and through her we got to all the Marco Inaros stuff later in the show. This might have been written better in the books, but I found it too jarring to have this random Belter captain suddenly having so much influence across Earth and especially Mars.

But I don't want to come across as too negative - it was a brilliant show that put a big thick slice of realism in the physics (up to a point). I just found it started to slack off towards the end, clearly they thought they'd get enough time to explore that planet glimpsed in the final season.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

It's easy to hate Miller because Jane is such a fucking scumbag irl.

[Kashinoda]

I didn't mind Miller at all, it's the pair of Holden and Naomi Nagata (to use the name she's referred as all the damn time) that stop me ranking this perfectly.

Holden I don't hate, but when I picture him in the show, he's slouched against a doorway, overalls around his waist, drinking a coffee. Not all sci fi protagonists have to be big damn heroes, but there's got to be a middle ground?

Naomi Nagata was such a debbie downer in the first 2 seasons. She constantly complained about everyone else's plans whilst offering nothing herself (and doing nothing wasn't an option), she unilaterally stole the hidden protomolecule, and through her we got to all the Marco Inaros stuff later in the show. This might have been written better in the books, but I found it too jarring to have this random Belter captain suddenly having so much influence across Earth and especially Mars.

But I don't want to come across as too negative - it was a brilliant show that put a big thick slice of realism in the physics (up to a point). I just found it started to slack off towards the end, clearly they thought they'd get enough time to explore that planet glimpsed in the final season.

By all accounts there's not a huge deal of deviation from the books but protomolecule is given to Fred by Holden in exchange for controlling the nukes fired at Eros. I can see why they changed it but felt substantial to lay that with Naomi.

[Schmarn]

I actually quite like Holden and the weary coffee slouching pose. It’s probably a more realistic depiction of a hero albeit not one that reflects the usual sci-fi hero figure.

I’m with you on Naomi partly because I don’t like forced romantic hook ups and she has zero chemistry with Holden. Partly for the reasons others have mentioned.

My slightly harsh comments on green screen were actually directed towards the scenes on Earth and to some extent Mars. The sets are just too pristine and sterile not unlike the Earth depictions in Star Trek TNG. One of the reasons I loved DS9 was that it felt lived in but that’s a whole other debate.

[Armand9]

I didn't mind Miller at all, it's the pair of Holden and Naomi Nagata (to use the name she's referred as all the damn time) that stop me ranking this perfectly....

yeah i had no problem with miller, i dont think he is necessarily likeable but neither unlikeable, his character was interesting and played well throughout

holden i liked, dont really see him as the big hero, more anti-hero in his unassuming way, very down to earth wearing a badge he doesnt really want

Nagata, with you all the way on that one, couldn't stand her from start to finish and just having her on screen (which is obviously shitloads) pissed me off, and when they'd do the lovey dovey shit, nausea enducing

the jewel in the crown was Drummer, awesome

..........

My slightly harsh comments on green screen were actually directed towards the scenes on Earth and to some extent Mars. The sets are just too pristine and sterile not unlike the Earth depictions in Star Trek TNG. One of the reasons I loved DS9 was that it felt lived in but that’s a whole other debate.

now i can understand you could have a preference, but Earth in TNG should look the way it does and there's no way DS9 should look like that utopian visage, it's pretty obvious the two are worlds apart in many important ways and appropriately represented - i wouldn't be chewing out the producers on that one

[Macphisto80]

I didn't mind Miller at all, it's the pair of Holden and Naomi Nagata (to use the name she's referred as all the damn time) that stop me ranking this perfectly.

Holden I don't hate, but when I picture him in the show, he's slouched against a doorway, overalls around his waist, drinking a coffee. Not all sci fi protagonists have to be big damn heroes, but there's got to be a middle ground?

Naomi Nagata was such a debbie downer in the first 2 seasons. She constantly complained about everyone else's plans whilst offering nothing herself (and doing nothing wasn't an option), she unilaterally stole the hidden protomolecule, and through her we got to all the Marco Inaros stuff later in the show. This might have been written better in the books, but I found it too jarring to have this random Belter captain suddenly having so much influence across Earth and especially Mars.

But I don't want to come across as too negative - it was a brilliant show that put a big thick slice of realism in the physics (up to a point). I just found it started to slack off towards the end, clearly they thought they'd get enough time to explore that planet glimpsed in the final season.

I'm not so sure on the bolded bit. I think that is just an almost obligatory trope or staple to any kind of saga or story. The issue with it is just how far the "big damn hero" is pushed or portrayed. They come in all flavours, from accidental or reluctant (Holden or Ripley) to brash, flamboyant, arrogant depictions like any Marvel film to Han Solo. They're all different but essential and it isn't limited to sci-fi. Jon 'ah dunt wunt it' Snow is another fine example. He's essentially a James Holden in a different time and a different setting and universe. The accidental hero that just doesn't want to be there but has to do what he has to do because its the right thing to do.

In the later novels, 30 years after Inaros, the story returns to the Protomolecule alien stuff again. It's touched on by the writer that all Holden, Drummer and Nagata want to do is just piss off and leave all the heroic antics to someone else. It's not their problem anymore. The thing is, because Holden is linked to Miller, and because Miller is essentially a spokesperson for the civilisation that built the ring and created the protomolecule, retirement from being the reluctant hero isn't an option and the entire plotine of the remaining story regarding Laconia and the fate of everything else revolves around this. Hopefully it doesn't just end where the TV series left off. That'd be daft.

[Armand9]

I'm not so sure on the bolded bit. I think that is just an almost obligatory trope or staple to any kind of saga or story. The issue with it is just how far the "big damn hero" is pushed or portrayed. They come in all flavours, from accidental or reluctant (Holden or Ripley) to brash, flamboyant, arrogant depictions like any Marvel film to Han Solo. They're all different but essential and it isn't limited to sci-fi. Jon 'ah dunt wunt it' Snow is another fine example. He's essentially a James Holden in a different time and a different setting and universe. The accidental hero that just doesn't want to be there but has to do what he has to do because its the right thing to do.

In the later novels, 30 years after Inaros, the story returns to the Protomolecule alien stuff again. It's touched on by the writer that all Holden, Drummer and Nagata want to do is just piss off and leave all the heroic antics to someone else. It's not their problem anymore. The thing is, because Holden is linked to Miller, and because Miller is essentially a spokesperson for the civilisation that built the ring and created the protomolecule, retirement from being the reluctant hero isn't an option and the entire plotine of the remaining story regarding Laconia and the fate of everything else revolves around this. Hopefully it doesn't just end where the TV series left off. That'd be daft.

i think that came across in the show itself, i didn't see any of them wanting the spotlight, it was done for practical reasons usually put on them by someone else or necessity

[Macphisto80]

i think that came across in the show itself, i didn't see any of them wanting the spotlight, it was done for practical reasons usually put on them by someone else or necessity

They're basically a crew of John McClane's. Well, at least for the first few films (especially the first). He joined The Avengers after 3.

In terms of the crew dynamic, I think there is only one other show that's similar and that was Firefly. Coincidently enough, I recently read one of the new canon novels for Firefly called "Big Damn Hero". It's an unavoidable trope. It's just getting the character right, and just like Malcolm Reynolds, Holden was pitch perfect.