Topic: FSG (*)

[ToneLa]

The summer transfer window is my own deadline for crossing over the FSG fence to negativity

Top 4 = we have champion's league & need to strengthen
No top 4 = we failed and need to strengthen

[Eeyore]

Klopp takes blame for Liverpool transfer window - but does not regret lack of signings

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/klopp-takes-blame-liverpool-transfer-12560951

But no, no, get out your tinfoil, bang the anti-FSG drum, because he's clearly lying to you!!

Anyone who thinks he's covering for FSG:

You are disrespecting our manager. He outright says here the club backed him.

"Oh but of course he would say that!" = you don't live in reality.

This sums Klopp up. http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11669/10266013/liverpool-boss-jurgen-klopp-refuses-to-place-daniel-sturridge-blame
When Sturridge failed to acknowledge the fans at Swansea last season who did Jurgen blame.

[Jfor83]

The summer transfer window is my own deadline for crossing over the FSG fence to negativity

Top 4 = we have champion's league & need to strengthen
No top 4 = we failed and need to strengthen

Ever since they took over people have been saying I'll judge them after the next window. I'm sure people will be saying the same in 2030!

[ToneLa]

I'm not people. I only speak for myself

Al, you didn't see me previous post. Please don't try to draw me into a discussion until I understand your motive. It is too cyclical and vague what you are trying to achieve. You can't be this arsed every day?

[El Lobo]

If managers always told the truth they wouldn't last beyond their first press conference. A large part of a modern managers job is managing the media. That involves showing a united front, giving the press nothing to feed on and backing people up in public.

Meh honestly mate, carry on. To the point now you're discrediting the manager to further this ridiculous agenda you have. Incredible.

[Jfor83]

I'm not people. I only speak for myself

Al, you didn't see me previous post. Please don't try to draw me into a discussion until I understand your motive. It is too cyclical and vague what you are trying to achieve. You can't be this arsed every day?

Haha fair enough. You're one of the many people that have said that

[cowtownred]

Is it ok to say that I am 100% in the Al and Kinki camp? Will I be banned if I say that these profiteers are in no way interested in taking the team to the next level. Profit for them from a foreign sports 'franchise' in which they have no interest is all they want.

I'm beginning to think they really are no better than Hicks/Gillett.

[ToneLa]

Haha fair enough. You're one of the many people that have said that

Haha tell me about it! Hard to be original in 2017, but I am honest enough

Is it ok to say that I am 100% in the Al and Kinki camp? Will I be banned

Who by? Al is a writer for RAWK, Kinki is staff isn't he? 

[Sir Psycho Sexy]

what did people actually expect after the H&G fiasco, when we had a squad containing the likes of Cole, Konchesky, Jovanovic et all

not to say mistakes weren't made after that, but did people expect shit to be rosy after they sold? Especially while clubs like spurs and city got stronger.

[Eeyore]

Meh honestly mate, carry on. To the point now you're discrediting the manager to further this ridiculous agenda you have. Incredible.

I am only discrediting the manager if your idiotic enough to believe that football is the last bastion of honesty in the world. Kinell you can't even get the ball going out for a throw in without both sides claiming it is their ball. You carry on sticking up for everyone when they are employees on message and then just portray them as disgruntled ex employees with an axe to grind when they are gone.

[Jfor83]

what did people actually expect after the H&G fiasco, when we had a squad containing the likes of Cole, Konchesky, Jovanovic et all

not to say mistakes weren't made after that, but did people expect shit to be rosy after they sold? Especially while clubs like spurs and city got stronger.

I expected better if I'm honest

[jillcwhomever]

I expected better if I'm honest

?

[El Lobo]

I am only discrediting the manager if your idiotic enough to believe that football is the last bastion of honesty in the world. Kinell you can't even get the ball going out for a throw in without both sides claiming it is their ball. You carry on sticking up for everyone when they are employees on message and then just portray them as disgruntled ex employees with an axe to grind when they are gone.

Nah, there's a difference Al.

He shouted 'no one can beat us', which wasn't true. Doesn't make him a liar, just caught up in the moment. If he's asked about one of his players, I'd always expect him to try and put a positive spin on it. Like with Sakho and Markovic I'm pretty sure we all know they don't have a future here, regardless of what was said by the manager.

But there's a massive difference between that and lying fundamentally about the way our transfers work and the control he has over them, part of which has led to him signing a six year contract.

Your missus asking if you like her bad hair, and you saying yes, doesn't mean you're being dishonest with whatever you say. And that when she asks where the cat is and you say no, that we can extrapolate that you buried it under the patio. Because you told a porky about her hair.

[clinical]

He may well say they are backing him. They will be backing him but it's the case of how much. It's not enough. £20m net today is like £5m under Moores era. We spent more under Moores, they have to go. They love rounders not football.

[plura]

He may well say they are backing him. They will be backing him but it's the case of how much. It's not enough. £20m net today is like £5m under Moores era. We spent more under Moores, they have to go. They love rounders not football.

And on we go...

So you're saying that they're not backing him then? Or are you saying that when someone says he has the backing he actually means that the backing is restricted and limited?

[ToneLa]

He may well say they are backing him. They will be backing him but it's the case of how much. It's not enough. £20m net today is like £5m under Moores era. We spent more under Moores, they have to go. They love rounders not football.

“We tried different things, it’s not a money issue or whatever different reason,”

But sure, chuck 'em anyway huh? It must be money. It simply must! 

[El Lobo]

He may well say they are backing him. They will be backing him but it's the case of how much. It's not enough. £20m net today is like £5m under Moores era. We spent more under Moores, they have to go. They love rounders not football.

And again and again, people read the words, completely ignore them, and come up with a conclusion that suits what they want to argue with.

[harryc]

Of course Klopp is being backed but there is limits to how much backing.

Draxler moves to PSG because we can't match the wages they offered him.

Brandt couldn't get the the deal done - low balled as usual.

[keyop]

Like who? Manchester United spent what was it 350m on Pogba and he hasn't exactly gone pogboom has he. Ibrahimovic is 35. Mkhitaryan is a bit part player. Xhaka isn't a great signing. Sterling is massively inconsistent and still a Soft touch. Sane is a bit part player. Gundogan is perennially injured. Stones while he may be the best youth defender out of Merseyside since Carragher is inconsistent and prone to errors. Gabriel jesus  - looks good but early days. Kane wasn't a signing. Eriksen blows Hor and cold. Son - would you consider him world class?

So who are these world class signings that teams around the top 6 are actually making?

Just thought I'd quote this post, as it's an example of lots of posts that are full of facts that are simply ignored as they don't fit the negative narrative.

The reason no-one replied to this post is because it's true. When the anti-FSG brigade are asked to provide their own solutions, all they do is look at what other clubs have done, look at other successful players, or look at other successful directors of football and say -'We should be doing that'. No shit Sherlock.

They conveniently ignore the mistakes other clubs have made or the luck they've had, as it doesn't support their argument. They magnify our rivals successes and overlook their failures, whilst doing the exact opposite for our own club. It's a bizarre way of thinking.

This thread is what happens when you have people with too much time on their hands and a clear agenda. A thread crammed full of speculation, conjecture and alternative facts, with posts completely ignored if they don't fit the narrative. People who despise Chelsea and City for buying success yet want us to do the same whilst somehow retaining our integrity and tradition. People who will scour the internet endlessly for something, anything, that they can twist to their advantage, no matter how tenous the link or how unrelated to the real facts.

I genuinely think that some people on here believe that hindsight equals intelligence and is a sound basis to form an argument. Or that the ability to use Google means they are well informed and know a lot about football. Or that stating the obvious actually contributes to the discussion. One mood hoover in particular single handedly keeps this thread (and many others) alive by continually pouring petrol on the fire with the same monotonous rhetoric.

There are even some for whom the suspicion of anyone in a suit leads them to delusional conspiracy theories about Klopp not being allowed to spend, despite him being clear and open about his transfer plans.

Fair play to the mods for doing their bit for society by keeping this thread open so that some of our fans can cry into their keyboards for hours on end each day. At least it keeps them off the streets.

[Eeyore]

Nah, there's a difference Al.

He shouted 'no one can beat us', which wasn't true. Doesn't make him a liar, just caught up in the moment. If he's asked about one of his players, I'd always expect him to try and put a positive spin on it. Like with Sakho and Markovic I'm pretty sure we all know they don't have a future here, regardless of what was said by the manager.

But there's a massive difference between that and lying fundamentally about the way our transfers work and the control he has over them, part of which has led to him signing a six year contract.

Your missus asking if you like her bad hair, and you saying yes, doesn't mean you're being dishonest with whatever you say. And that when she asks where the cat is and you say no, that we can extrapolate that you buried it under the patio. Because you told a porky about her hair.

The Club have made it crystal clear who is in charge of transfers mate.

Michael Edwards has today been appointed as Liverpool Football Club's sporting director.

The 37-year-old is being promoted into a newly-created role as part of a restructuring of the football operations. Edwards will now lead the club’s overall football development, including player identification, acquisitions, sales and retention, as well as taking primary responsibility for reviewing and implementing improvements to the training ground environment and infrastructure.

[El Lobo]

The Club have made it crystal clear who is in charge of transfers mate.

Michael Edwards has today been appointed as Liverpool Football Club's sporting director.

The 37-year-old is being promoted into a newly-created role as part of a restructuring of the football operations. Edwards will now lead the club’s overall football development, including player identification, acquisitions, sales and retention, as well as taking primary responsibility for reviewing and implementing improvements to the training ground environment and infrastructure.

Wait...you honestly think Chewbacca wasn't a wookiee?! Ridiculous.

[JackWard33]

Instead of arguing about quotes and who said what and what they meant when they said it - can we not just argue about outcomes?

+ Since Klopp came we're in profit for transfers despite inheriting a squad in a mess and finishing 8th last year
+ We've failed to 'get it done' (for whatever reason) for a whole host of transfer targets we know about in the last two windows
+ The club is richer than ever with a record income and an increase in underlying value of up to 800 million quid since they bought it
+ The squad is stupidly thin with our world class manager apparently only trusting 12 players in any game that matters

The bottom line is ownership aren't delivering a squad that can compete regularly for top and the title
They seem to have no plan to deliver this and have barely made a public comment on our football 'strategy' in years
If Klopp is also to blame for this or if he's just doing his best with a limited wage bill structure is the lesser issue. The greater issue is what is the owners plan to compete???

I accept some fans don't see fault in what's happened over the last 3 or 4 years and others are happy to trust that Klopp is somehow in control -  but it would be good if they could outline what the strategy is give us a squad that can compete.
Because the owners haven't said what it is and if we judge them on outcomes they haven't delivered it.

[Johnny Foreigner]

Instead of arguing about quotes and who said what and what they meant when they said it - can we not just argue about outcomes?

+ Since Klopp came we're in profit for transfers despite inheriting a squad in a mess and finishing 8th last year
+ We've failed to 'get it done' (for whatever reason) for a whole host of transfer targets we know about in the last two windows
+ The club is richer than ever with a record income and an increase in underlying value of up to 800 million quid since they bought it
+ The squad is stupidly thin with our world class manager apparently only trusting 12 players in any game that matters

The bottom line is ownership aren't delivering a squad that can compete regularly for top and the title
They seem to have no plan to deliver this and have barely made a public comment on our football 'strategy' in years
If Klopp is also to blame for this or if he's just doing his best with a limited wage bill structure is the lesser issue. The greater issue is what is the owners plan to compete???

I accept some fans don't see fault in what's happened over the last 3 or 4 years and others are happy to trust that Klopp is somehow in control -  but it would be good if they could outline what the strategy is give us a squad that can compete.
Because the owners haven't said what it is and if we judge them on outcomes they haven't delivered it.

That post pretty much summarizes it, and by definition the clubs that are on top of the food chain pays the biggest fees and would/should never be in profit if they intend to get to the top/stay at the top..

And before any comments, the footballing set-up of atletico madrid and their "business model" looks a wee bit stronger than ours..

[El Lobo]

Why should the owners have to come out and tell people what their strategy is whenever a group of fans get pissy?

They've made plenty of mistakes. But they hired Klopp and unless a lot of people are telling porkies, they are backing him and have given him a good mount of control over transfers. We've made big strides in the league and made mainly good signings. We're in profit because we made a lot of money off quite a few average players. If we do the same in the summer, and get the players the manager wants, then great. Whinging about net spend is what FM fans do.

Everyone's whinging about us not competing with Man City and Chelsea and United. Yet the only team in that tip 6 close to our net spend is the one we should be looking at, who finished 2nd last season and look a good bet to again.

[Redric1970]

Why should the owners have to come out and tell people what their strategy is whenever a group of fans get pissy?

They've made plenty of mistakes. But they hired Klopp and unless a lot of people are telling porkies, they are backing him and have given him a good mount of control over transfers. We've made big strides in the league and made mainly good signings. We're in profit because we made a lot of money off quite a few average players. If we do the same in the summer, and get the players the manager wants, then great. Whinging about net spend is what FM fans do.

Everyone's whinging about us not competing with Man City and Chelsea and United. Yet the only team in that tip 6 close to our net spend is the one we should be looking at, who finished 2nd last season and look a good bet to again.

Right let's look at it this way we wanted zielinski FACT

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/poland-star-piotr-zielinski-reveals-8799077

he met with Jurgen klopp but we would only pay £11.75mil whereas udinese wanted £13mil, Napoli swooped in and now he's on fire and Chelsea and real are sniffing for £60mil (link below), I'm not even bothering to get started on the dele Ali farce.

http://c.newsnow.co.uk/A/870837840?-19388:814:0

Now we are not talking world record transfer fees here, it's a player Jurgen obviously wanted but once again the bickering over the small fee difference lost us the target.

[whiteboots]

And before any comments, the footballing set-up of atletico madrid and their "business model" looks a wee bit stronger than ours..

They are building a brand new 70k stadium- FSG have managed a new stand.

[The North Bank]

Why should the owners have to come out and tell people what their strategy is whenever a group of fans get pissy?

They've made plenty of mistakes. But they hired Klopp and unless a lot of people are telling porkies, they are backing him and have given him a good mount of control over transfers. We've made big strides in the league and made mainly good signings. We're in profit because we made a lot of money off quite a few average players. If we do the same in the summer, and get the players the manager wants, then great. Whinging about net spend is what FM fans do.

Everyone's whinging about us not competing with Man City and Chelsea and United. Yet the only team in that tip 6 close to our net spend is the one we should be looking at, who finished 2nd last season and look a good bet to again.

Spurs finished 3rd.... Just sayin..

[Redric1970]

Spurs finished 3rd....

In a two horse race 🙂

[ToneLa]

I know I'm sure it will come back it wasn't the fee or it wasn't really Jurgen or the player forgot or something, but it's not FSG they are backing him.

You (well, anyone arguing this position) have no evidence they aren't backing him. None whatsoever.  There are a ton of other possibilities but you're so obsessed with "FSG won't pay!" you will even refuse to believe the manager on multiple occasions.

Do you know about the burden of proof in philosophy? It is very difficult, nay impossible, for someone (me, say) to prove "nothing" happened as by definition there is a lack of evidence of "nothing".

Someone comes along and pops something into that vacuum - FSG not spending! And hey presto you can throw together circumstantial evidence to make it look like you're right.

But - in the absence of fact - I can't, logically, prove my side as I'm saying "dunno, there's no evidence". And you are putting forward evidence simply because you have a point to prove, but isn't concrete!

We simply don't have enough info. This is why it goes round in circles. Why do you think some of us just can't see what you can see? The only difference is you've already made up your mind.

I think it is high time FSG issued us an update on what is next from the business side, but we can't make 'em. Please take this post as explanatory - someone else might want to talk turkey with you. 

vvv Matey, we don't play Spurs this weekend coming

[The North Bank]

In a two horse race 🙂

They could do so again.
Its amazing how long a week is in football these days.
Liverpool beat spurs this weekend and everyone will be saying if spurs don't get cl due to their fixture congestion. Its due to the lack of investment in January again, and their weak bench.
Apart from Chelsea, at the moment everyone else is living on a rolling weekly basis of hope and despair.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

They are building a brand new 70k stadium- FSG have managed a new stand.

its on the site of an existing stadium that is near the airport way out of town and is costing them around £250m, very different scenarios.

[Redric1970]

You have no evidence they aren't backing him. None whatsoever.  There are a ton of other possibilities but you're so obsessed with "FSG won't pay!" you will even refuse to believe the manager on multiple occasions.

Do you know about the burden of proof in philosophy? It is very difficult, nay impossible, for someone (me, say) to prove "nothing" happened as by definition there is a lack of evidence of "nothing".

So there is a vacuum. Someone comes along and pops something into that vacuum - FSG not spending! And hey presto you can throw together circumstantial evidence to make it look like you're right.

But - in the absence of fact - I can't, logically, prove my side as I'm saying "dunno, there's no evidence". And you are putting forward evidence simply because you have a point to prove, but isn't concrete!

What are you talking about no evidence, Jurgen klopp got on a plane and met him that not hearsay, what evidence do you want the two of them having a cuddle, the player said they met, the fee was £13mil napoli were the club who met the valuation we fell £1.25 mil short, I honestly don't know what more you want.

Here's another link from the echo switch the player saying he met klopp and jurgen wanted to sign him but we didn't agree a fee, I'm sorry I can't get you any DNA Proof

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/zielinski-klopp-wanted-badly-napoli-11862395

[ToneLa]

But mate, you link to that Mirror article that destroys your own argument. Hang on, I will quote it:

He decided to stay with Empoli, where he was on loan from parent club Udinese, until the end of the season.

According to the Liverpool Echo Udinese were prepared to sell to the Reds, but their offer of £11.75million was rejected.

"Liverpool finally got a plane and I met with Jurgen Klopp. He said he wanted me in his team. I saw a different world and after returning my head was even a bigger mess.”

Referring to Liverpool's initial interest in January, Zielinski told Poland’s Przeglad Sportowy : “Everyone said: ‘Great offer, Klopp wants you, it’s a fairytale in terms of finances’. All fine, but I wasn’t convinced.


“I was driving my car and I said to my girlfriend: ‘No, red light, I’m not leaving’. I felt great in Empoli, I didn’t want to leave the lads when we were battling for the European places.

... how is that FSG failing?  You can say, and I'll grant you this - chuck a higher initial fee at the situation as the bid was rejected, although he's on record saying everyone saw the finances as OK (and he wanted to come initially, feeling the bid was there - the player said the money was no issue!)

But the fella met Jurgen, and still wasn't convinced. I just don't see that as FSG failing.

Of course - even if I grant you this one - it would be used as an excuse forever. "They will never back him." It is absolutely imperative to take everything one instance at a time.

Sorry matey. I just don't believe that one fell apart due to FSG. I think the player got cold feet, changed his mind, and we withdrew interest. There seems more to it than just money.

[El Lobo]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/36695597

[Redric1970]

But mate, you link to that Mirror article that destroys your own argument. Hang on, I will quote it:

... how is that FSG failing?  You can say, and I'll grant you this - chuck a higher initial fee at the situation, although he's on record saying everyone saw the finances as OK.

But the fella met Jurgen, and still wasn't convinced. I just don't see that as FSG failing.

Of course - even if I grant you this one - you would use it as an excuse forever. "They will never back him."

Sorry matey. I just don't believe that one fell apart due to FSG. I think the player got cold feet, changed his mind, and we withdrew interest. There seems more to it than just money.

We can all cherry pick parts of an article, this was the summer after he decided to stay.


But Liverpool renewed their pursuit of the 22-year-old this summer and the deal was only finally declared dead when Napoli matched Udinese's asking price of £13million.

According to the Liverpool Echo Udinese were prepared to sell to the Reds, but their offer of £11.75million was rejected.

all i am saying is that the owners are not all sweetness and light, we are not all going to agree that's part of being football fans, but there is a lot wrong at the moment.

[KiNki]

What are you talking about no evidence, Jurgen klopp got on a plane and met him that not hearsay, what evidence do you want the two of them having a cuddle, the player said they met, the fee was £13mil napoli were the club who met the valuation we fell £1.25 mil short, I honestly don't know what more you want.

Which was the same situation re clint dempsy, the manager wanted him, we offered a million or so less than what fulham wanted, we pissed fulham off, had to apologise and off he went to spurs.

https://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2012/09/window-pain-dempsey-debacle-was-a-big-blow-for-brendan/

has anything really changed from then to now?

[Redric1970]

Which was the same situation re clint dempsy, the manager wanted him, we offered a million or so less than what fulham wanted, we pissed fulham off, had to apologise and off he went to spurs.

https://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2012/09/window-pain-dempsey-debacle-was-a-big-blow-for-brendan/

has anything really changed from then to now?

Surely everyone can see the pattern surely.

[ToneLa]

So essentially, you're blaming FSG permanently because, after Jurgen met the player here, (and he is on record as getting cold feet, and our bid was outright rejected by the club), another club put in a higher bid that was accepted.

You have to leave out quite a lot to funnel that into the narrow "FSG lowballed it". I won't even disagree with that; meet the asking price (even if Lobo's BBC link says "the Italian club have accepted an identical offer from Serie A rivals Napoli.".

But it permanently changes your thinking? OK, we are different 

The thing that raises the most questions with me is, is the odd stuff about his head being a mess; if Jurgen himself is getting on a plane.... if it was Ayre, guess who would be getting slated?

Here is why I think I feel differently from most of you:

I think Jurgen going on record as having the final say in transfers is true, and I mentally drew a line under the transfer committee/Rodgers era. I believe it is different now. Not... 100% different, but Rodgers got borderline sabotaged. Klopp hasn't been IMO.

I mean, Clint Dempsey now? Anything a bit more recent? I get it, there are patterns to be seen, but it looks like jumping at shadows to me.

Feel free to chuck more examples. I will look at them. I have no agenda. I'm not FSG's biggest fan! But really, Zielinski wasn't a concrete example.

[TepidT2O]

I can't believe people are arguing over Clint Dempsey....

[Billy Elliot]

Why should the owners have to come out and tell people what their strategy is whenever a group of fans get pissy?

Corporate Governance?

Basic stakeholder theory?

People who spend a good deal of their disposable income on something deserve transparency at all times.  After all, it's ultimately the fans who have funded the Main Stand.