Author Topic: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?  (Read 67671 times)

Online 4pool

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #160 on: November 15, 2014, 08:22:38 pm »
Hi mel(If I may call you that  :))

My impression of Moneyball is that selling for profit, per se, is a by product.

Not necessarily buying to flip, but buying to extract what we can. At the best possible price we can.



it's better than what others call me... :P

I think to much is made about buying young options and moving them on. Why would be getting a  Toure and Lambert if it's all about buying younger players. You want to buy players who will help the team. Some straight away, some to be molded into top players. And some won't work out at all. What we won't be doing again is buying a Carroll and losing loads on him.
Either we are a club of supporters or become a club of customers.

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #161 on: November 16, 2014, 06:28:55 am »
Comolli's had a fair bit to say about us recently, his quotes taken from

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/henderson-signing-cost-me-liverpool-job-says-comolli-296561.html

http://www.thescore.ie/damien-comolli-liverpool-1766282-Nov2014/

“When we signed Jordan Henderson, he got so much criticism, I got so much criticism,” Comolli said. “I was never told why I was sacked but I was led to believe it was because we signed Jordan Henderson, and the owners were convinced he was not good enough.”


Comolli says statistics played a big part in the transfer policy at Anfield in his time, and were integral to the club signing Luis Suarez.


Comolli said Liverpool had relied on the “eyes, ears and numbers” formula to evaluate Suarez while he played in Holland.


“We’d watched him since Groningen, so we were aware of what he did, how he played and so on. That was the ‘eyes’ part,” said Comolli.


“Numbers? We didn’t have a lot of data on the Dutch League at the time, but we knew he’d scored 41 in 61: numbers.


“We tried to measure what goals in other leagues would be ‘worth’ in the Premier League. It’s not perfect but we felt a goal in Holland was worth one-10th of a Premier League goal.


“So we felt he wouldn’t get 41 in 61, but we were wrong — he got 31 in 33 games.


“We looked at other factors — how and when he scored, did he score when they were chasing the game or when they were three-nil up, did he get equalisers, could you rely on him to score away from home, did he only score against weak teams or against top teams.


“Did he create chances, did he deliver assists, how did he play in the last third?


“Another question was personality. We needed personality up front, — would he be a technical and emotional leader for the team at the front and give it that spark?


“When we looked at it, he gave us everything.”


Comolli says the last part of the equation then came into play.


“Our chief scout heard that we could do the deal, that they (Ajax) wanted to sell him: ears. We couldn’t believe it and decided to move.


“We heard people saying he couldn’t play in the Premier League — Spurs had him, but they decided he couldn’t play in England, so they moved away.


“They heard we were interested and tried to move in, but it was too late.”


Comolli also said that statistics contradicted an article of faith in field sports, that young players can play more games because they recover quicker.


“Measuring the load the young player can take, you want to ensure that when he becomes a mature player at 23 that he’ll continue like that for 10 years.


“At Liverpool we had devices to measure player load, we had five and tried them on young players. At the time John Flanagan was in the first team, he was 18 but playing quite a lot.


“What we found out went totally against everything I’ve heard since I was brought up in football, that young players can play more because they recover quicker.


“Rubbish. We found that John Flanagan’s heart rate was coming back to normal 72 hours after a 90-minute game, whereas a senior player was coming back to normal 24-36 hours later. That meant the risk of breaking down for him, if we played him within 72 hours of that game, was massive

the second link:

"I think it’s very interesting to compare it with Atletico Madrid’s approach. They and Liverpool both lost their key player – Diego Costa won the league for Atletico on his own and took them to a Champions League final on his own. Luis Suarez took Liverpool to second place on his own, Champions League too. Atletico asked themselves ‘Can we find a replacement for Costa that we can afford? No we can’t. But what we can do is sign Mandzukic, who is quite similar, and Griezmann.’ They basically swapped one for two and kept a very stable team. Liverpool have done it the other way around.”

“Liverpool have invested in youth with the likes Philippe Coutinho, Mamadou Sakho, Raheem Sterling, Jon Flanagan – and suddenly they change everything. I think the philosophies (at Atletico and Liverpool) are very different and time will tell which is the best one.”

"But Atletico still have a very functional team and are doing very well – they haven’t destroyed what they’ve built. You look at Liverpool from the outside and they’ve kind of destroyed what they built, what they had. If you compare the two clubs – and if you ask yourself whose been the most successful at it, you’d say Atletico Madrid.”

“I don’t know what’s going on from a fitness point of view. They don’t look right. Being in clubs for a long time, I know sometimes that the eyes tell you that the team is not right physically but when you look at the data, it tells you otherwise. But when you look at the Liverpool players against Newcastle, the quick players looked slow, the players with great stamina looked heavy-legged so I don’t know if there’s a physical aspect to why they’re not performing.”

“Last year, as much as they were killing everybody with the pace they had, the team spirit, team dynamics, togetherness and cohesion was unbelievable in the second part of the season. And it seems that this season, they’ve lost that completely. Which brings me back to my first point – bringing so many players in compared to Atletico Madrid. Did they kill the team spirit? Did they kill the cohesion they had? Maybe they did and that takes a long, long time to come back – especially if results aren’t going their way.”

"That’s why Liverpool deserve credit. Losing your strike-force – one player because he’s sold, the other because he’s injured, is probably too much to cope with. If Sturridge was fit, it would be a different story. But it reminds me so much of what happened to us at Spurs. We had programmed to sell Dimitar Berbatov and we ended up selling both Berbatov and Robbie Keane because Keane wanted to go and the money offered by Liverpool was unbelievable and impossible to turn down. And then we lost the best attacking partnership in the Premier League – the best pair over two seasons was Berbatov and Keane in terms of assists made and goals scored. Liverpool have been getting a lot of criticism but I think it’s a bit unfair because Sturridge is not there. If it’s still not working when Sturridge gets back, then there’s really grounds for concern.”

____________________________________________________________________________________

I found the bit about Flanagan's recovery compared to senior players going against the perceived wisdom to be interesting, there's probably some truth about team cohesion / spirit becoming diluted with so many signings; beyond that the rest seems fairly routine except for a goal in the dutch league rated at around 1 / 10th in the English league haha. 

Offline Fromola

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #162 on: November 16, 2014, 11:09:13 am »
It always sticks in my mind that we'd sign a player, then come Saturday I'd wonder where he was, sometimes I'd even forgotten about him and then he'd appear and be ever present.
They had the opportunity to impress the gaffer back then, regular 'competititve' football at least once a week.

Now, it's a couple of hours training a day, and a Carling cup game if you're lucky.

This is the thing. If we sign a player, how can we develop them if they don't play in our team? Training isn't going to cut it. They don't play under 21 games and that isn't competitive enough anyway as it's a youth league. So all you can do is loan them out.

Look at Coates. For three years (although he was injured last season) he's just sat there not playing any games. How can he possibly develop? Now this season we've finally decided to loan him out and he's sat on someone's bench.

It's that catch 22 of a player needed to get games to develop but not being able to afford to play them when they're not quite ready. Markovic is very much in that boat. We used to have a proper competitive reserve league and the reserves would play the same as the first team and when they'd adapted they'd be ready for the first team.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline Asam

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #163 on: November 16, 2014, 01:27:50 pm »

In a nutshell, we changed too much, too soon- this season should have been about consolidating our place in the top 4, instead we've built a squad to compete in all comps but there does not seem to be a coherent plan as to how those players were going to fit in to our style of play. Instead of augmenting what was good about us last season it looks like we've tried to tear up the formula and try something different

We went from having a philosophy built on high energy, pressing, pace, skill, movement to one where its not clear where we are headed-

I hope the club has the stomach to take the tough choices needed in Jan, I can see a few club stalwarts leaving the club and a few of the summer's signings going out on loan or being sold- 

If we learn anything it should be the following:

- Quality over quantity
- Only Sign players who are better than what you have already
- Fitting into our style of play is the most important factor, not the big name
- Mental attitude and professionalism is critical
- The new signings that are 24-26 years of age are the are most important to get right, as they have to deliver immediately- so that is where you spend the most.
- premiership proven is nonsense, having the temperament to play for a big club is much more important than which league you've played in

Offline NealFrom25Yards

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #164 on: November 16, 2014, 01:27:58 pm »
Quote
“Numbers? We didn’t have a lot of data on the Dutch League at the time, but we knew he’d scored 41 in 61: numbers.

“We tried to measure what goals in other leagues would be ‘worth’ in the Premier League. It’s not perfect but we felt a goal in Holland was worth one-10th of a Premier League goal.

So...we signed him on the belief that he was good for about 4 goals every 60 games.

Fucking hell am I glad he's not here anymore. I'm not convinced the shadowy businessmen in the 'committee' are much better, but at least they're quiet.

Offline Fromola

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #165 on: November 16, 2014, 01:54:10 pm »
So...we signed him on the belief that he was good for about 4 goals every 60 games.

Fucking hell am I glad he's not here anymore. I'm not convinced the shadowy businessmen in the 'committee' are much better, but at least they're quiet.

He's a weird one Comolli. He's very scattergun though and will make 1 or 2 gems but also sign loads of duds. At Spurs he got Modric, Berbatov and Bale but also wasted shitloads on the likes of Bentley. Bale was also considered a failure for a couple of years. The money they made on those three justified all his spending there though. At Liverpool we signed Suarez who gave us a 50 million profit and monetarily covered the other failures. He was also the player that got us back in the CL this season which is more money.

I do think he's a bit of a fraud who basically signs players off spreadsheets and tries to make out it's an exact science. So he ends up paying a fortune for the likes of Downing or Adam without analysing how they'll fit in to the team he's buying for, or whether they have the mentality to step up.

Unfortunately the business we've done since Comolli suggests we're no better off for him leaving because he might have unearthed another gem  and we've pretty much wasted £200m+.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #166 on: November 16, 2014, 02:34:34 pm »
So...we signed him on the belief that he was good for about 4 goals every 60 games.

Fucking hell am I glad he's not here anymore. I'm not convinced the shadowy businessmen in the 'committee' are much better, but at least they're quiet.

I've got a great idea.

Why don't I cherry pick a small snippet of what the guy said and quote it so I can rubbish the fella - even though he was a major element of us signing one of our greatest ever players.  :)

Fuck me I didn't exactly take to the guy but at least let's not totally fuckin misrepresent him and what he has to say just to slag the fella off. I mean if the shadowy businessmen had signed a Suarez equivalent you might have the tiniest semblance of justification.

BTW when the fuck did Neal score from 25 yards. I must have fuckin blinked for that one.

 ;D

Comolli says statistics played a big part in the transfer policy at Anfield in his time, and were integral to the club signing Luis Suarez [I’d guess “integral” in this context means invoved in the overall scouting/assessment process but - at the “4 goals equivalent in 61 games” aspect you cling to like some fucking desperate limpet -  manifestly not a pivotal factor. In fact I'd say entirely the opposite and more an impediment to any final judgement] .


Comolli said Liverpool had relied on the “eyes, ears and numbers” formula to evaluate Suarez while he played in Holland.  Hmm - so not just the 4 goals he’d score in 61 games huh

“We’d watched him since Groningen, so we were aware of what he did, how he played and so on. That was the ‘eyes’ part,” said Comolli. Hmm - so not just the 4 goals he’d score in 61 games huh


“Numbers? We didn’t have a lot of data on the Dutch League at the time, but we knew he’d scored 41 in 61: numbers. “We tried to measure what goals in other leagues would be ‘worth’ in the Premier League. It’s not perfect but we felt a goal in Holland was worth one-10th of a Premier League goal. [So to get a top level Premiership equivalent of say 2 goal in three games he’d have needed to have scored 410 goals in 61 games? Yeah, that makes perfect sense and the fact he'd only scored a tenth of the goals we needed him to have scored in Holland to justify signing him clearly played a major part in the reason why we never signed him ...oh shit but we did sign him -  :o.]  


“So we felt he wouldn’t get 41 in 61, but we were wrong — he got 31 in 33 games. Comolli humour huh – who’d have thunk eh  ::)]


“We looked at other factors — how and when he scored, did he score when they were chasing the game or when they were three-nil up, did he get equalisers, could you rely on him to score away from home, did he only score against weak teams or against top teams. Aah I see - so it really wasn’t just the 4 goals he’d score in 61 games huh

“Did he create chances, did he deliver assists, how did he play in the last third? Yeah - clearly not just the 4 goals he’d score in 61 games

“Another question was personality. We needed personality up front, — would he be a technical and emotional leader for the team at the front and give it that spark? Yeah no doubt - not just the 4 goals he’d score in 61 games

“When we looked at it, he gave us everything.” Everything eh? not just the 4 goals he’d score in 61 games


Comolli says the last part of the equation then came into play.


“Our chief scout heard that we could do the deal, that they (Ajax) wanted to sell him: ears. We couldn’t believe it and decided to move. Aah I see - so despite the fact he was going to score just the 4 goals in 61 games you were still mad keen huh


“We heard people saying he couldn’t play in the Premier League — Spurs had him, but they decided he couldn’t play in England, so they moved away. Hmm, really – presumably because he was capable of only 4 goals in 61 games?


“They heard we were interested and tried to move in, but it was too late.” Hmm – presumably the 4 goals in 61 games started to look more attractive than re-signing Robbie keane huh?


 ;D

Offline Gerry83

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #167 on: November 16, 2014, 03:08:26 pm »
We're struggling badly this season because of the lack of goals and inability to keep a clean sheet, obvious i know but its that simple. Shocking performances in the games against Hull, Villa and West Ham that we would have won or ground out last season is another reason. Take 7 from those available 9 and we're top 4 level on points with City who are third.

Worried that the Balotelli injury may force Brendans hand with Sturridge. I think he'll be on the bench with Borini up top. We need to get to January and get a top striker in if possible. That will leave us with 5 currently and 1 to come in so i cant see anything other than 2 from Borini/Lambert/Balotelli moving on in the summer.

Still gutted about our spending in the summer. Cant help but think we've bought overpriced average players at a time when there was some of the bigger names available and we had the funds to obtain them.

Offline wheresnemeth

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #168 on: November 16, 2014, 03:49:50 pm »
We played without fear last season, the weight of expectation seems too much for our attacking players this year. They don't look like they're playing with the same freedom and confidence.
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Offline Red Bird

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #169 on: November 16, 2014, 03:58:50 pm »
- premiership proven is nonsense, having the temperament to play for a big club is much more important than which league you've played in

Aye, you hit the nail on the head there.

Offline Grobbelrevell

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #170 on: November 17, 2014, 12:25:04 pm »
Comolli's had a fair bit to say about us recently, his quotes taken from

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/henderson-signing-cost-me-liverpool-job-says-comolli-296561.html

http://www.thescore.ie/damien-comolli-liverpool-1766282-Nov2014/

"I think it’s very interesting to compare it with Atletico Madrid’s approach. They and Liverpool both lost their key player – Diego Costa won the league for Atletico on his own and took them to a Champions League final on his own. Luis Suarez took Liverpool to second place on his own, Champions League too.

Yeah, of course they did, Damien  ::)
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Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #171 on: November 17, 2014, 01:09:00 pm »
Yeah, of course they did, Damien  ::)

I'm the last person to defend an overpaid freeloader like Commolli but d'you honestly believe the quotes attributed to him about both players doing everything "on their own" were meant to be taken literally?

I know it's dead easy to target what's there in black and white but no way in the context of all he said was he trying to peddle such a preposterous notion. He was merely trying to convey just how vital they'd been to the overall team achievements.

Offline G1 Jockey 4(betfair)

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #172 on: November 17, 2014, 01:09:09 pm »
comolli is a blind dickhead.

atletico are completely different from us.

they have an organised pressing system.
ours is just an idea
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Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #173 on: November 17, 2014, 01:11:47 pm »
comolli is a blind dickhead.


Who landed Luis

 ;D

Offline mkingdon

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #174 on: November 17, 2014, 01:23:01 pm »
This. And Ilori I don't think is shop windowed - I just think he isn't ready to start being rotated in and we've had a glut of centerbacks at the club the past few years.

Also this. We went a little crazy with the buys this past summer. I don't think we made bad buys, but making so many was going to be a guaranteed transition period, which after last season was going to load the team, the coach, and the club with tons of pressure.

Moreno, Lallana, Origi (loaned) and one quality striker would have been better business. Why not blood youth, already drilled in the club's and Rodger's style of play and expectations to fill roles besides?

Why not Ibe in the squad instead of Markovic (maybe if he was a little further along in development, the deal would have made more sense).

We could have paired Skrtel and Sakho and kept Wisdom around.

Rossiter, Williams, McLaughlin, Jones... all youth that could be called upon to fill places in the squad. Probably not going to be taking home the CL or League trophies but thats a solid, competitive squad on the same page.

I understand the counter argument for youth - Wisdom, Ibe are playing regular football and that's great for their development. Okay, then bring in someone on loan, not a major 20m signing (Lovren, Markovic, Balotelli) that might be hard to move on.

It's fun to play manager!

But in the end, these are problems that will get sorted. It's going to take some time and it's frustrating following a title challenge season, but that's all. We created the problem but time in training and in competitive matches is all that we need to start looking better. I hope. :)

On the topic of using youth rather than going out and buying 7/8 new players....

I am not against that idea at all, and I thought Suso, Ibe, Illori and Wisdom would (and probably should) have had their place in the first team squad this season.

All I would say is that had we gone that way, and not spent "the Suarez money" and "the CL money" RAWK may well have exploded in ball of flames before the end of September.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 01:25:21 pm by mkingdon »

Offline xerxes

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #175 on: November 17, 2014, 01:32:08 pm »
I was interested in the fitness aspect. I had wondered about it too. I recall that last year Rodgers set the squad up to be fitter at the end of the season than the beginning. I wonder if something has backfired this year.
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Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #176 on: November 17, 2014, 01:33:45 pm »
For me the crux of the matter is the lack of `space creators`. Without SAS we`re not only lacking goals but also dribbling ability which is the most effective way to take people out of the game and create space for yourself or your teammates - especially considering that with Gerrard and Henderson and their type of passing we don`t really move teams around with our passing but rather pass in front of them for the most part.

Balotelli can`t really dribble, Markovic and Lallana hardly play at all and Sterling even though has the reputation of a dribbler in reality for him it`s only happening when he plays in central positions and makes those penetrative driving runs with the ball while on the wing he can`t even beat one Dummett 1-on-1 the entire game. So it only leaves us with Coutinho who can at times get past people and create space for himself or teammates.

The best example is our first goal at Spurs when Sturridge received the ball, feinted , turned around and passed it forwards leaving 3 Spurs players completely out of the game and creating the sea of space for his teammates on the edge of the Spurs` box. It`s the kinda move we simply don`t have in our team since we sold you know who and Daniel got injured. Hopefully now Daniel is back it will elevate our attacking game to a higher level.

For me it`s essential to find the tactical structure where the likes of Sturridge, Sterling and Coutinho will be close to each other, interchanging cute 1-2s. Put your 3 most skillful, technical players close to each other and let our attacking moves develop from there.

Offline BassTunedToRed

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #177 on: November 17, 2014, 02:26:31 pm »
For me the crux of the matter is the lack of `space creators`

The biggest space creator we're missing is early goals! ;)

Our almost complete lack of set piece goals has hurt us badly. As great as we were at times last season, scoring (basically) one goal per game from a penalty or set piece helped us a hell of a lot.

Offline Miltonred

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #178 on: November 17, 2014, 03:29:12 pm »
I watched them very closely and re-watched a lot of games from last season and I think the biggest and most obvious difference is that all the players are wearing new strips in EVERY game!

Offline Black Bull Nova

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #179 on: November 17, 2014, 07:47:51 pm »
The amount of "misses" or compromise buys we seem to have (which we then often evolve to loans) gives the impression that we are not just scouting for talent and fit for us, we are also dealing in players worth/value growth like a commodity/business.  It's something that concerns me about the moneyball thinking.  Rather than finding the right players and if they don't fit, take rapid action to address it- we are often apparently dealing in these players to increase their value - with that in mind we take a punt based on potential value growth, but Brendan doesn't need the player based on fit.  A businessman or investor would say that makes sense and I understand it to an extent.  However a football fan would say that we need every asset, every penny to go towards making our squad better, especially with the context/competition getting tougher, other squads getting better. 
It feels like we are doing a bit of both improving our squad and dealing in players value growth.  Not sure we can afford that at the cost of core squad at the moment.  Can be that FSG are prepared to just buy and sell purely for value growth.

I'm not sure the resale value of Lallana, Lovren, Sakho and Markovic were ever likely to ensure a quick buck turnaround so I'm not sure I'm with you there. I think every club seeks value and, unless you are Real Madrid or Barca you cannot hold onto your players if they are good enough, I think Southampton are playing moneyball better than  anyone though, our main supplier in fact. I'd have Pelle and Tadic tomorrow.
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Offline LiverBirdKop

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #180 on: November 17, 2014, 07:50:17 pm »
I'm the last person to defend an overpaid freeloader like Commolli but d'you honestly believe the quotes attributed to him about both players doing everything "on their own" were meant to be taken literally?

I know it's dead easy to target what's there in black and white but no way in the context of all he said was he trying to peddle such a preposterous notion. He was merely trying to convey just how vital they'd been to the overall team achievements.
Nonsense. Those comments are closer to being meant to be taken literally than not.

And why are you wasting so much time defending the guy? I didn't need any stats to know Suarez was good. As if watching him for Ajax and Uruguay were not enough to know the guy was good. lol  The only stat I need to know if a player is good is this one: 20/20.

Offline LiverBirdKop

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #181 on: November 17, 2014, 07:52:20 pm »
I was interested in the fitness aspect. I had wondered about it too. I recall that last year Rodgers set the squad up to be fitter at the end of the season than the beginning. I wonder if something has backfired this year.
According to whom? A guy who used to post here?

Offline rocco

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #182 on: November 17, 2014, 08:26:09 pm »
According to whom? A guy who used to post here?
im sure Rodgers made comments to back that up

Offline Upinsmoke

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #183 on: November 17, 2014, 08:36:27 pm »
comolli is a blind dickhead.

atletico are completely different from us.

they have an organised pressing system.
ours is just an idea

Brendan said he wanted a couple of boss players than many average ones. Atletico lost a couple of top players and brought in a couple. That's what Brendan said he wanted to do. Instead we brought in alot of average.

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #184 on: November 17, 2014, 08:55:56 pm »
Brendan said he wanted a couple of boss players than many average ones. Atletico lost a couple of top players and brought in a couple. That's what Brendan said he wanted to do. Instead we brought in alot of average.

And for about the 5th time in this thread..

Brendan said he wanted a " couple of boss players"...when we had Suarez and weren't looking to sell. Which is why Brendan bought Lambert as plan B after the season, because Brendan fully expected Suarez and Sturridge to be in the line up opening day.

Then Suarez bites at the World Cup, FSG has had enough, Barca pay the release clause fee, and Brendan then has to rebuild the "squad". Hence why we needed so many players.

We were never going to go after Sanchez, Remi, Balotelli or any of them had Suarez stayed. None of them strikers were going to sit the bench behind SAS. But the situation changed.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 08:58:33 pm by 4pool »
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Offline L666KOP

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #185 on: November 17, 2014, 08:58:40 pm »
According to whom? A guy who used to post here?

The fitness schedule Brendan's team use isn't a dark art. Many managers use the same plan.

Work towards hitting 90% after Christmas and sustain it until the end of the season.

13mins - Bournemouth have gone home. Utd kicked off anyway. Still 0-0 as Smalling passes it back to De Gea.

Offline the_red_pill

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #186 on: November 17, 2014, 09:04:11 pm »
In a nutshell, we changed too much, too soon- this season should have been about consolidating our place in the top 4, instead we've built a squad to compete in all comps but there does not seem to be a coherent plan as to how those players were going to fit in to our style of play. Instead of augmenting what was good about us last season it looks like we've tried to tear up the formula and try something different

We went from having a philosophy built on high energy, pressing, pace, skill, movement to one where its not clear where we are headed-

I hope the club has the stomach to take the tough choices needed in Jan, I can see a few club stalwarts leaving the club and a few of the summer's signings going out on loan or being sold- 

If we learn anything it should be the following:

- Quality over quantity
- Only Sign players who are better than what you have already
- Fitting into our style of play is the most important factor, not the big name
- Mental attitude and professionalism is critical
- The new signings that are 24-26 years of age are the are most important to get right, as they have to deliver immediately- so that is where you spend the most.
- premiership proven is nonsense, having the temperament to play for a big club is much more important than which league you've played in

Yip. "Premier League Proven" is nonsense these days- although not, a few seasons ago.

I think people are still clinging onto the old fear, which was legitimate back then- because they dropped like flies; but not anymore since not only is everyone well aware of what's needed to survive when moving to England AND it's league- they have it down to a science now.
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In such a sumptuous festival of shite, I wouldn't be so quick to pick a winner..

But he'd make the shortlist

Offline the_red_pill

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #187 on: November 17, 2014, 09:08:21 pm »
Who landed Luis

 ;D
You have to admire the man's high ceiling for success though..
Can't argue with Bale, Modric and Suarez(and the nouse to actually get hold of them) all in the space of 3 seasons. That's a decade's worth of shimmering talent right there. They sold for a combined ~200m!  :o
"Some listen to understand. Others listen to respond."
"A fool does not delight in understanding, but only in revealing his own mind."
In such a sumptuous festival of shite, I wouldn't be so quick to pick a winner..

But he'd make the shortlist

Offline the_red_pill

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #188 on: November 17, 2014, 09:18:16 pm »
The fitness schedule Brendan's team use isn't a dark art. Many managers use the same plan.

Work towards hitting 90% after Christmas and sustain it until the end of the season.


Yip- City and Everton (possibly Arsenal, this season since they appointed a new fitness coach in the Summer)- amongst others. Martinez had the same approach when he was at Wigan- slow and incoherent at the start of the season, but flying towards the end. Pellegrini, Van Gaal are steeped in that tradition.

We'll get there again this season and we'll be a different animal then we are now- the only problem is that so will City, Everton, Arsenal, Pochettino, possibly United and then the real race is on. The clueless English pundits would yet again subscribe this "sudden togetherness" to other trivial factors. "Liverpool's new signing that injected life in their PL hopes and lifted a team.." and such bollocks or some other shite that suddenly happened at Arsenal or United's(they'd call it a kick up the arse, to put it in plain everyday language, failing to understand that these would most likely be a planned consequence of previous work) etc..


From what I've learned, different teams optimize for different finishes/starts. Teams like Newcastle, Villa, Palace and the like would normally focus on fast-starts to the season- enough a lift to have them in the top-10 or near the top 4 in most seasons when December comes around. When they hit their downturn from then on- or from January- they concentrate on grinding out draws and the odd win to keep them mid-table come the end of the season. Chelsea's sort of similar, but with the benefit of a larger, real quality squad.

Top teams are more focussed on FA Cups/Copa <somethings>, CL last-16s/quarters, top-4/league finishes which come at the end of the season when they can maul the Villas of this world.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 09:35:38 pm by the_red_pill »
"Some listen to understand. Others listen to respond."
"A fool does not delight in understanding, but only in revealing his own mind."
In such a sumptuous festival of shite, I wouldn't be so quick to pick a winner..

But he'd make the shortlist

Offline robertobaggio37

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #189 on: November 17, 2014, 09:23:10 pm »
We should try for Tevez in january, he could really help us.
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Offline diegoLFC7

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #190 on: November 18, 2014, 12:58:03 am »
Were being linked with Maxi Pereira. That lad is rubbish, he's border line terrible. Add that on to his age (30) and you got a really bad january signing. What the hell are we doing with our scouts?
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Offline ThePoolMan

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #191 on: November 18, 2014, 01:34:29 am »
In a nutshell, we changed too much, too soon- this season should have been about consolidating our place in the top 4, instead we've built a squad to compete in all comps but there does not seem to be a coherent plan as to how those players were going to fit in to our style of play. Instead of augmenting what was good about us last season it looks like we've tried to tear up the formula and try something different

We went from having a philosophy built on high energy, pressing, pace, skill, movement to one where its not clear where we are headed-

I hope the club has the stomach to take the tough choices needed in Jan, I can see a few club stalwarts leaving the club and a few of the summer's signings going out on loan or being sold- 

If we learn anything it should be the following:

- Quality over quantity
- Only Sign players who are better than what you have already
- Fitting into our style of play is the most important factor, not the big name
- Mental attitude and professionalism is critical
- The new signings that are 24-26 years of age are the are most important to get right, as they have to deliver immediately- so that is where you spend the most.
- premiership proven is nonsense, having the temperament to play for a big club is much more important than which league you've played in


Our biggest mistake was not signing world class or near world class players in a couple of critical positions  such as AM, CM and CF. Markovich will be a good player but he won't be at the standard we need for another two seasons at least. Lallana is a good player but he is not at the kind of quality level who can significantly improve the team immediately nor make up for losing Suarez's creativity. The money we spent on those players could have been spent on one world class AM.

We also continue to be weak in CM and we have no credible alternative to Sturridge. Origi was never going to be available this season due to Lille's stand and he seems to be more of a wide player anyway.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 01:39:23 am by ThePoolMan »

Offline ThePoolMan

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #192 on: November 18, 2014, 01:35:20 am »
You have to admire the man's high ceiling for success though..
Can't argue with Bale, Modric and Suarez(and the nouse to actually get hold of them) all in the space of 3 seasons. That's a decade's worth of shimmering talent right there. They sold for a combined ~200m!  :o

Spurs has disputed that he was responsible for Bale and Modric though.

Offline ThePoolMan

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #193 on: November 18, 2014, 01:38:36 am »
And for about the 5th time in this thread..

Brendan said he wanted a " couple of boss players"...when we had Suarez and weren't looking to sell. Which is why Brendan bought Lambert as plan B after the season, because Brendan fully expected Suarez and Sturridge to be in the line up opening day.

Then Suarez bites at the World Cup, FSG has had enough, Barca pay the release clause fee, and Brendan then has to rebuild the "squad". Hence why we needed so many players.

We were never going to go after Sanchez, Remi, Balotelli or any of them had Suarez stayed. None of them strikers were going to sit the bench behind SAS. But the situation changed.

He should have put his foot down with FSG and refused to sell Suarez without signing a good alternative first. If FSG refuses. then threaten to resign. FSG essentially rewarded him for misbehaviour because he always wanted to play for the top two in La Liga. This whole debacle is caused by FSG and Rodgers' failure of nerve.

Offline MTred406

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #194 on: November 18, 2014, 02:52:36 am »
We are all going to have a laugh at this thread when Sturridge gets fit and starts scoring for fun and we win 5/6 in a row.  The sky isn't falling, and our rivals have been every bit as shit as we have. I still have faith in Brendan to right the ship and get us back on course for top 4. 

Offline Oddball

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #195 on: November 18, 2014, 06:07:50 am »
We are all going to have a laugh at this thread when Sturridge gets fit and starts scoring for fun and we win 5/6 in a row.  The sky isn't falling, and our rivals have been every bit as shit as we have. I still have faith in Brendan to right the ship and get us back on course for top 4. 

Do you not count Chelsea as a rival?
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Offline L666KOP

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #196 on: November 18, 2014, 07:40:01 am »
He should have put his foot down with FSG and refused to sell Suarez without signing a good alternative first. If FSG refuses. then threaten to resign. FSG essentially rewarded him for misbehaviour because he always wanted to play for the top two in La Liga. This whole debacle is caused by FSG and Rodgers' failure of nerve.
I don't want to turn it into a Suarez thread, but I'm guessing he had a watertight clause in his contract.

If the club thought they could keep him I'm sure they would have.
13mins - Bournemouth have gone home. Utd kicked off anyway. Still 0-0 as Smalling passes it back to De Gea.

Offline ThePoolMan

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #197 on: November 18, 2014, 08:17:47 am »
If he had a watertight clause in his contract, then why didn't Rodgers set out to sign a top forward as his top priority since the chances were that Suarez would get that clause activated after the the best season of his life? Either way, both the club and Rodgers had no excuse for us to be caught unprepared.

Offline L666KOP

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #198 on: November 18, 2014, 08:26:51 am »
If he had a watertight clause in his contract, then why didn't Rodgers set out to sign a top forward as his top priority since the chances were that Suarez would get that clause activated after the the best season of his life? Either way, both the club and Rodgers had no excuse for us to be caught unprepared.

Brendan has already gone on record as saying they genuinely thought Luis was staying. He said it was a big surprise.

Now I assume as part of our scouting network we are keeping tabs on hundreds of players, but to bring in a 'replacement' of sorts takes a lot more  than just phoning an agent and saying "Does your boy like wearing red?"

It's even become knowledge that Wenger was into Sanchez even before the WC started. There's probably a group of players we could pretty much click our fingers at and they'd come running, but those that have the ability to have a good choice when it comes to moving need a little bit of flirting and foreplay to encourage them. I keep saying it, but looking at Liverpool from the perspective of the players and we really weren't the nailed on draw many thought we would be. Even after finishing 2 I'd put us 5th at best in the Premiership for attracting top level players.
13mins - Bournemouth have gone home. Utd kicked off anyway. Still 0-0 as Smalling passes it back to De Gea.

Offline redrockydennis

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #199 on: November 18, 2014, 08:49:07 am »
Wages, we need to pay competitive wages. We are trying to copy the arsenal business plan, its not going to work.

That being said in general the wages paid are fucking disgusting. Come the glorious day the agents will be first against the wall.
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