Topic: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'

[B0151?]

City won the league with only two good defenders in the squad including only one adequate full back in Zabaleta.

Demichelis was one of the best CBs in the league second half of the season. Better than any of ours that's for sure.

[L666KOP]

Demichelis was one of the best CBs in the league second half of the season. Better than any of ours that's for sure.

I'm not knocking what you say, but to be fair I'd probably look ok behind Toure and Fernandinho.

[The 5th Benitle]

Erm...Steven Gerrard anyone? 

[Carlito Roberto]

I'm not knocking what you say, but to be fair I'd probably look ok behind Toure and Fernandinho.

Toure is a liability defensively, granted Fernandinho is immense.

[L666KOP]

Erm...Steven Gerrard anyone? 

Yeah, we'll get round to him at some point.
 

[L666KOP]

Toure is a liability defensively, granted Fernandinho is immense.

So, swap Toure for Gerrard, and we had no Fernandinho ?

It's probably what made the difference.

[B0151?]

I'm not knocking what you say, but to be fair I'd probably look ok behind Toure and Fernandinho.

I don't know. Yaya isn't really that good defensively and playing a 4-4-2 puts a lot of pressure on the defenders not to get caught out. He wasn't so good in the first half of the season with the same players in front of him.

I can't quite understand how I've seen people blame Gerrard for Lovren's poor form. The lad is coming out to win the ball and completely missing it constantly but somehow Gerrard's the one at fault? Of course the deepest midfielder has a big defensive responsibility but I don't think it excuses the mistakes I've seen our CBs make for the past 2 and a half years. Longer than that actually. Skrtel got player of the season under Kenny but I was never convinced by our defence. Always seemed like the opposition had a goal in them, we just played more conservatively so they didn't have as many chances.

[L666KOP]

I don't know. Yaya isn't really that good defensively and playing a 4-4-2 puts a lot of pressure on the defenders not to get caught out. He wasn't so good in the first half of the season with the same players in front of him.

I can't quite understand how I've seen people blame Gerrard for Lovren's poor form. The lad is coming out to win the ball and completely missing it constantly but somehow Gerrard's the one at fault? Of course the deepest midfielder has a big defensive responsibility but I don't think it excuses the mistakes I've seen our CBs make for the past 2 and a half years. Longer than that actually. Skrtel got player of the season under Kenny but I was never convinced by our defence. Always seemed like the opposition had a goal in them, we just played more conservatively so they didn't have as many chances.

In our system though when a defender comes out to press the ball it's the Dm's job to drop in and make up the numbers.

Lucas was doing it against Madrid.

There's a really good post somewhere that explains how Guardiola set's his teams up, and what jobs each of his players are tasked with, and for intents and purposes it looks like we are trying to replicate it, but not very well.

Let me have a look for it.

I can't do proper cross thread quoting so apologies, but this is from the Kotov thread, and a quote by 'Coffeelover'.


Concerning the controller role I can recommend the latest book on Pep Guardiola, "Pep Confidential", which is basically the story of Guardiola in his first season at Bayern Munich season. The writer was allowed to basically follow Guardiola around and he often got to talk to him and the other coaches often so it is a very close look at the inside workings of a major club. Often there is discussion about the controller role and one thing that does stand out is how defensive Guardiola sees the role. He expects the controller to drop into the central defenders space if the central defender has left the line to press an attacker. He expects the controller to see when the fullback has left his line to press his winger and either drop into that space or the central defender moving across to the space vacated by the fullback and then the controller once again dropping into the space vacated by the central defender moving across. Guardiola spends a lot of time talking about this position and you can see that the interpretation by Gerrard (and Rodgers we have to assume) is very different.     


JackWard also posted an excellent link from the defense thread. Both go a long way to explaining our failings.


http://gemsandrhinestones.com/

[B0151?]

In our system though when a defender comes out to press the ball it's the Dm's job to drop in and make up the numbers.

That doesn't mean Gerrard can be blamed for the error in missing the ball in the first place though. It puts the defence as a unit under a lot of pressure. Even the presence of Lucas couldn't stop Skrtel and Johnson making howlers that we managed to get away with through a combination of good goalkeeping, last-ditch defending and poor finishing.

[L666KOP]

That doesn't mean Gerrard can be blamed for the error in missing the ball in the first place though. It puts the defence as a unit under a lot of pressure. Even the presence of Lucas couldn't stop Skrtel and Johnson making howlers that we managed to get away with through a combination of good goalkeeping, last-ditch defending and poor finishing.

I'm not saying that, I'm saying if we are indeed playing a similar system to the one I posted then he's to blame for not filling in.

Lucas was doing it rather effectively, but his default setting is to read the game from a defensive standpoint.

[Carlito Roberto]

So, swap Toure for Gerrard, and we had no Fernandinho ?

It's probably what made the difference.

Sounds about right mate, the joys of having a defensive midfielder whose skillset is helping protect the back four eh.

[The Last Known Survivor]

JackWard also posted an excellent link from the defense thread. Both go a long way to explaining our failings.


http://gemsandrhinestones.com/

As much as i hate to say it I think Gerrard is just not up to it in this role for us anymore if he ever really was. His passing from there can be a launch pad for quick counters as it sometimes was last year but we had a serious pacy and mobile front three then, we dont any more. The lack of mobility up front is leading to a lack of hunting down the ball high up the pitch and our midfield seem to not want to push up as they can easily be passed through if the whole team isnt pressing as a unit.  The two problems sorta compound each other and put our defense under pressure quite a lot.

[Eeyore]

In our system though when a defender comes out to press the ball it's the Dm's job to drop in and make up the numbers.

Lucas was doing it against Madrid.

There's a really good post somewhere that explains how Guardiola set's his teams up, and what jobs each of his players are tasked with, and for intents and purposes it looks like we are trying to replicate it, but not very well.

Let me have a look for it.

I can't do proper cross thread quoting so apologies, but this is from the Kotov thread, and a quote by 'Coffeelover'.


Concerning the controller role I can recommend the latest book on Pep Guardiola, "Pep Confidential", which is basically the story of Guardiola in his first season at Bayern Munich season. The writer was allowed to basically follow Guardiola around and he often got to talk to him and the other coaches often so it is a very close look at the inside workings of a major club. Often there is discussion about the controller role and one thing that does stand out is how defensive Guardiola sees the role. He expects the controller to drop into the central defenders space if the central defender has left the line to press an attacker. He expects the controller to see when the fullback has left his line to press his winger and either drop into that space or the central defender moving across to the space vacated by the fullback and then the controller once again dropping into the space vacated by the central defender moving across. Guardiola spends a lot of time talking about this position and you can see that the interpretation by Gerrard (and Rodgers we have to assume) is very different.     


JackWard also posted an excellent link from the defense thread. Both go a long way to explaining our failings.


http://gemsandrhinestones.com/

Which begs the question why the hell would you want an aging slowing Gerrard doing the donkey work and filling in for other players. You want to use what age doesn't dull which is his technical ability.

[L666KOP]

Which begs the question why the hell would you want an aging slowing Gerrard doing the donkey work and filling in for other players. You want to use what age doesn't dull which is his technical ability.

The only place for him then is at the top end of the pitch, where he either gives us 60 mins, or the last 30. All at 100% Gerrard.

Gerrard not only has aging legs against him, but his instinct is to get after the ball and create. Lucas' is to get back and protect. There's no reason I can think of whereby they can't both get minutes in the same match. We either KO with him and then bring Lucas on to hold, or we go with Lucas to start, and use Gerrard if needs be.

There's got to be a better way than what we're currently seeing. Or I'm completely missing something obvious ?

[Mutton Geoff]

Sorry but this thread is a perfect example of why player threads are useless, not one of you main posters in this thread has moved an inch from your initial thoughts and opinions and never will!

Same arguments regurgitated page after page!

 This thread is akin to painting the Forth Bridge, although watching them do that is far more exciting.

[Vortigen]

I am really quite upset over the Gerrard situation.  I don't know if he is insisting on playing 90 minutes every league game, or if this is what Rodgers wants, but whatever the case it's not doing the team or Gerrard any favours. 

There is no shame in rationing the playing minutes of a 34 year-old footballer.  Right now, I think there is a real danger of Liverpool supporters being relieved as opposed to saddened when Gerrard retires and that to me is quite tragic. 

[kcbworth]

Sorry but this thread is a perfect example of why player threads are useless, not one of you main posters in this thread has moved an inch from your initial thoughts and opinions and never will!

Same arguments regurgitated page after page!

 This thread is akin to painting the Forth Bridge, although watching them do that is far more exciting.

The last 3 pages or so have become a typical player thread.

I think prior to that there was some good discussion about the importance of Gerrard as a talisman, or even the relevance of his current role in our setup.

But last 3 pages has just been Gerrard defenders shouting down any doubt, which is unhelpful atm imho and a shame that it's degenerated into a "player thread"

kc

[Mutton Geoff]

The last 3 pages or so have become a typical player thread.

I think prior to that there was some good discussion about the importance of Gerrard as a talisman, or even the relevance of his current role in our setup.

But last 3 pages has just been Gerrard defenders shouting down any doubt, which is unhelpful atm imho and a shame that it's degenerated into a "player thread"

kc

sorry you are correct and it is that discussion in the last few pages that is just so tiresome . Al and HL need a thread just for them.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Right now, I think there is a real danger of Liverpool supporters being relieved as opposed to saddened when Gerrard retires and that to me is quite tragic.

Is already happening in some cases.

[Fromola]

Demichelis was one of the best CBs in the league second half of the season. Better than any of ours that's for sure.

He was a laughing stock for much of the season (unfairly). It was only towards the end he got any credit. But Fernandinho was massive for them defensively last season and Garcia came in and did a solid job where required. Their defence weren't left as exposed. Zabaleta had a very solid season but he wasn't asked to get forward as much as Johnson would be.

Our defence is a problem as well but not playing with a defensively minded midfielder really hurts us and hurts the defence.

So, swap Toure for Gerrard, and we had no Fernandinho ?

It's probably what made the difference.

Exactly. Fernandinho was the difference between the two teams last season.

[Halcyon Lissome]

Fernandinho is actually not that imperious defensively. He's more of an round midfielder that's pretty good defensively rather than a defensive specialist. I recall last season when people were comparing Lucas-Gerrard to the other midfield pairs they had much better defensive output than the City pair - the less said about Toure the better.

[robgomm]

I'm not saying that, I'm saying if we are indeed playing a similar system to the one I posted then he's to blame for not filling in.

Lucas was doing it rather effectively, but his default setting is to read the game from a defensive standpoint.

I don't think we are playing the same system. Rodgers is a different man with different ideas. Gerrard drops between the centre backs to facilitate him being on the ball more, he doesn't interpret the role as a holder would necessarily for Bayern.

[L666KOP]

I don't think we are playing the same system. Rodgers is a different man with different ideas. Gerrard drops between the centre backs to facilitate him being on the ball more, he doesn't interpret the role as a holder would necessarily for Bayern.

We did pretty much exactly that style away to Madrid.

I've said numerous times, Lovren going walkabouts is not something he does accidentally, I think it's what he's been told to do.

And I think our DM/Controller should drop in and cover.

Lucas does, Gerrard not so much.

[robgomm]

We did pretty much exactly that style away to Madrid.

I've said numerous times, Lovren going walkabouts is not something he does accidentally, I think it's what he's been told to do.

And I think our DM/Controller should drop in and cover.

Lucas does, Gerrard not so much.

How many times have we played like we did against Madrid away under Rodgers? We barely created anything, the onus was on a solid, low block.

I tend to agree that Lovren is attacking the ball for a reason but I don't think it is just to order. I also think our DM drops in to cover the full backs, ultimately, as the centre backs are pulled wide and not to cover marauding centre backs. Don't forget one of our CBs is Skrtel.

What is for certain is there is no clear and defining pattern of defensive play that we exhibit and that needs to change, be it to the way Guardiola's teams play or however else.

[Fromola]

How many times have we played like we did against Madrid away under Rodgers? We barely created anything, the onus was on a solid, low block.

I tend to agree that Lovren is attacking the ball for a reason but I don't think it is just to order. I also think our DM drops in to cover the full backs, ultimately, as the centre backs are pulled wide and not to cover marauding centre backs. Don't forget one of our CBs is Skrtel.

What is for certain is there is no clear and defining pattern of defensive play that we exhibit and that needs to change, be it to the way Guardiola's teams play or however else.

What DM? That's one of the functions of a DM but we don't have one (save for Lucas who doesn't play in the league). Instead you have full backs covering the lack of a DM instead by going inside (i.e. Johnson being order to push in against Chelsea, result in Hazard having the freedom of the by line for the second goal. Is Lovren attacking the ball like that because the midfield don't deal with danger?

This is the thing. The midfield needs to be there to help the defence as well as create. Last season they were creating an awful lot but not helping the defence. This season they aren't doing either job.

[GrkStav]

All in all, how many of our players in general, let alone our midfielders specifically, do you observe being visibly concerned with and effecting 'defensive balance' and 'cover' when WE have the ball? I see Manquillo do it, Moreno at times, Allen regularly, Lucas practically always when he plays, Henderson infrequently (but when he does cotton to it, he does so energetically), Coutinho very infrequently and not very well, Can I can't say with any degree of certainty. I should not even have to mention Johnson; I just did, that should be enough of that.

Gerrard does it somewhat regularly, although I detect a 'painting by numbers' approach. I could be wrong.

[robgomm]

What DM? That's one of the functions of a DM but we don't have one (save for Lucas who doesn't play in the league). Instead you have full backs covering the lack of a DM instead by going inside (i.e. Johnson being order to push in against Chelsea, result in Hazard having the freedom of the by line for the second goal. Is Lovren attacking the ball like that because the midfield don't deal with danger?

This is the thing. The midfield needs to be there to help the defence as well as create. Last season they were creating an awful lot but not helping the defence. This season they aren't doing either job.

I agree Gerrard is a deep lying playmaker and that DM is somewhat flippant a term for his role. He does, however, definitely cover and did so a good deal in that role last season. The problem this season is because he was closely marked in the first few games he now has shifted roles to some in between position that's given us the worst of all all worlds.

[goalspaytherent]

So ......this captain fella ......is he off or what ?

[Redman0151]

If we had Kompany and Zabaleta we probably would have won the league as well, their the best players in the league in their respective positions.

And i would take Nastacic and Clichy over Cissokho and Sakho.

Cissokho and Sakho committed a combined 0 errors leading to goals last season, i'd take both of those in terms of defence any day. Clichy offers more going forward though obviously.

In terms of personnel I don't think there was a huge difference between the 2 teams (Kompany didn't have the best season) apart from Zabaleta, but City had far more protection from midfield and a system that was less gung ho

[Bobinhood]

He passes the ball 40 yards.
Hes big.
and hes fucking Hard.

!!!

You think hes off give your head a shake, hes off when we refuse to re-up him he'll go play 5 more years in MLS for my Toronto team. Last I heard we weren't refusing to re-up him both sides were just noodling on about the matters of time and money as they do. He'll go when hes well and truly pushed out the door. Somewhere between 37-39 I'd say.

Don't argue, im a clairvoyant five a side indoor goalie. I just know these things. As if by magic.

[kcbworth]

Looks like it's time for Gerrard to become a striker now! Probably the closest thing we have to Sturridge in the current squad, so let him play his position!

The midfield can sort itself out

[ThePoolMan]

Looks like it's time for Gerrard to become a striker now! Probably the closest thing we have to Sturridge in the current squad, so let him play his position!

The midfield can sort itself out

Actually that may not be such a bad idea...

[harryc]

Looks like it's time for Gerrard to become a striker now! Probably the closest thing we have to Sturridge in the current squad, so let him play his position!

The midfield can sort itself out

Seeing as though he is guaranteed to start might be good idea to get him away from that deep lying DM role.

[ThePoolMan]

Gerrard still has some pace in bursts and his shooting accuracy and individual skill will stand him in good stead as a CF. It may suit him in fact to be CF until he tires, and then we can bring in Borini to substitute for him. Pair Gerrard with Balotelli or Lambert.

[Fromola]

12 games in 40 days how do you think we'll use Gerrard over that period? It's 3 games a week till the new year. I'd imagine he'll play the full Ludogorets/Basle games because we need to win them. He might sit out the Bournemouth game but he's always played every minute in the league under Rodgers.

[irish musicman]

12 games in 40 days how do you think we'll use Gerrard over that period? It's 3 games a week till the new year. I'd imagine he'll play the full Ludogorets/Basle games because we need to win them. He might sit out the Bournemouth game but he's always played every minute in the league under Rodgers.

Sorry mate I just looked at that and thought if we want to win those games Gerrard has to play!!!! Certainly not as a DM though, further forward maybe.

[Giono]

What DM? That's one of the functions of a DM but we don't have one (save for Lucas who doesn't play in the league). Instead you have full backs covering the lack of a DM instead by going inside (i.e. Johnson being order to push in against Chelsea, result in Hazard having the freedom of the by line for the second goal. Is Lovren attacking the ball like that because the midfield don't deal with danger?

This is the thing. The midfield needs to be there to help the defence as well as create. Last season they were creating an awful lot but not helping the defence. This season they aren't doing either job.

Last season they weren't asked to defend but rather focus on supplying chances as we had the strikers to make that trade worthwhile. This season we don't have the strikers, but the midfield is fruitlessly playing the same way.

Thinking positively, I wonder if Rodgers is persisting with Stevie deep in the anticipation of Sturridge's return, that keeps getting put farther back? Is he trying to train the new squad into a way of playing for when Sturridge returns?

[GIPPO77]

As a previous poster said, playing Gerrard up front may actually be beneficial to all.

[Fromola]

As a previous poster said, playing Gerrard up front may actually be beneficial to all.

I think it could work with Borini. With Lambert or Balotelli it might be too immobile and static and it wouldn't work as a lone forward. Borini's energy and movement is very good and would free up space for Gerrard. It could be our best chance of goals. Why couldn't it work for a few games over the next month or so? No harm in trying it rather than doing the same shit that's not working for anyone. It could also shore the midfield up more than it has been but still give us the extra striker. It might be a short term answer without Rodgers having to leave Gerrard out the side.

[[new username under construction]]

Wait, Gerrard gets marked out of the game now at his kinda DM position and most think he could create space as a forward?