Topic: Gerrard - quoted as 'Gerrard open to move from Liverpool'

[Fromola]

Amazingly enough, Gerrard + Lucas has worked the 'best'. Not that it was particularly good, but not quite as bad as too many people have concluded.

To be fair it's not terrible in terms of getting results but it's just aesthetically it's poor because there's zero mobility and pace and they get in each others way. It wasn't until Gerrard got injured that we finally started really playing good football last season, apart from the home games against the dross where we won easily. Then Gerrard came in for Lucas and it continued.  I think it's better than Gerrard/Henderson though which was a disaster at the World Cup and when it's been tried for us. Lucas and Gerrard you can get by with WHEN Henderson is buzzing around in front making the midfield more energetic. So effectively it's more a midfield three of Lucas, Gerrard and Henderson when it's worked to any real degree in recent times. The Norwich/Chelsea/Palace games last season summed up a Gerrard/Lucas midfield with no Henderson.

Gerrard in a midfield two will never work though and never did. The funny thing is Rodgers seems restricted and hesitant in what he tries because he knows Gerrard's limitations at this point in his career, be it in defensive or mobility terms. So he knows he's not the Gerrard of old or a Mascherano figure. I think what he thinks he is is a Xabi Alonso and I think that's the problem. Alonso wouldn't be able to do what Gerrard can in the final third and Gerrard can't do what Alonso does in more of the middle third. Gerrard can't really control a game or dictate the tempo - he's a moments player. It's the same with his defending. Alonso laughs at the way the English view tackling and Gerrard is an embodiment of that. Alonso is not a Makelele by any means (Gerrard and Alonso needed Hamann to bail them out in Istanbul from the first half horror show) but defensively he's much better because his positioning and awareness is spot on.

"I can say categorically that Mario won't be with us."

 

Yeah, I know you can never really trust what he says but he was quick to back his calculated Bascombe interview up. He also said early summer Gerrard's contract was a priority so I don't know what happened there. If Gerrard is still playing every minute then it stands to reason he'd want him to stay. Otherwise why continue to do it?

[GrkStav]

To be fair it's not terrible in terms of getting results but it's just aesthetically it's poor because there's zero mobility and pace and they get in each others way. It wasn't until Gerrard got injured that we finally started really playing good football last season, apart from the home games against the dross where we won easily. Then Gerrard came in for Lucas and it continued.  I think it's better than Gerrard/Henderson though which was a disaster at the World Cup and when it's been tried for us. Lucas and Gerrard you can get by with WHEN Henderson is buzzing around in front making the midfield more energetic. So effectively it's more a midfield three of Lucas, Gerrard and Henderson when it's worked to any real degree in recent times. The Norwich/Chelsea/Palace games last season summed up a Gerrard/Lucas midfield with no Henderson.

Gerrard in a midfield two will never work though and never did. The funny thing is Rodgers seems restricted and hesitant in what he tries because he knows Gerrard's limitations at this point in his career, be it in defensive or mobility terms. So he knows he's not the Gerrard of old or a Mascherano figure. I think what he thinks he is is a Xabi Alonso and I think that's the problem. Alonso wouldn't be able to do what Gerrard can in the final third and Gerrard can't do what Alonso does in more of the middle third. Gerrard can't really control a game or dictate the tempo - he's a moments player. It's the same with his defending. Alonso laughs at the way the English view tackling and Gerrard is an embodiment of that. Alonso is not a Makelele by any means (Gerrard and Alonso needed Hamann to bail them out in Istanbul from the first half horror show) but defensively he's much better because his positioning and awareness is spot on.

Yeah, I know you can never really trust what he says but he was quick to back his calculated Bascombe interview up. He also said early summer Gerrard's contract was a priority so I don't know what happened there. If Gerrard is still playing every minute then it stands to reason he'd want him to stay. Otherwise why continue to do it?

Exactly. I remember PoP's demonstrations that we were effectively playing an 'uneven' 442 with SG and LL in the 'middle' and Henderson, usually nominally at LM, defensively (mostly) 'tucked in' as necessary.

It helps if you have a potent Sturridge-Suarez '2' and a speedy and dangerous (and still defensively capable) Sterling on the other flank.

On a different note, if Can stays healthy and reaches full aerobic and anaerobic fitness mid-December, we're going to be a different team in midfield and we'll see quite a bit of him regularly.

[LFCsupporter]

Amazingly enough, Gerrard + Lucas has worked the 'best'. Not that it was particularly good, but not quite as bad as too many people have concluded.

Wasn't there a problem of neither of them tracking runners from midfield? They both seem a bit lost when together

[GrkStav]

Wasn't there a problem of neither of them tracking runners from midfield? They both seem a bit lost when together

No, there wasn't such a problem.

Lucas never seemed a bit or a lot lost when playing together with Gerrard. He may have not been his best, but he never seemed 'lost'.

[Halcyon Lissome]

I think the percentage of football people both in this country and on the continent agreeing with you on that subject would be pretty low to be honest.
I thought he was decent but nowhere near that good.
Each to his own though.

Maybe but I don't really care because Lucas was underrated for a while until it became undeniable that he was dominating other teams' top midfields almost single-handedly. His stats were off the charts as well. He may not be that anymore, but even his current level puts him on par with some of the best DMs in the league. As I've said here many times; I'd never get rid of him and put him in the side even if just to placate him somewhat. There aren't that many good DMs around.

[paulrazor]

Lucas had really turned a few heads and this was especially true after a draw match we had at home to city. it finished 1-1, charlie adam scored a heavily deflected shot for us

lucas was brilliant that game. everybody lfc fan or not raving about him. then the next game he got injured vs chelsea

season went to shit in the league after that

[scumbagcollege]

Lucas had really turned a few heads and this was especially true after a draw match we had at home to city. it finished 1-1, charlie adam scored a heavily deflected shot for us

lucas was brilliant that game. everybody lfc fan or not raving about him. then the next game he got injured vs chelsea

season went to shit in the league after that

Over the seasons, who has Lucas played well with as a midfield parner? Is it just the Gerrard/Lucas axis which doesnt seem to click? Who has Gerrard formed a decent parnership whith in that area?

[paulrazor]

Over the seasons, who has Lucas played well with as a midfield parner? Is it just the Gerrard/Lucas axis which doesnt seem to click? Who has Gerrard formed a decent parnership whith in that area?

alonso, hamann, mascherano

[MerseyParadise]

alonso, hamann, mascherano

He played pretty tidy in midfields consisting of Danny Murphy %  Reknapp too. Gary Mac nursed him well through a few his early games

[redprodigal]

Maybe but I don't really care because Lucas was underrated for a while until it became undeniable that he was dominating other teams' top midfields almost single-handedly. His stats were off the charts as well. He may not be that anymore, but even his current level puts him on par with some of the best DMs in the league. As I've said here many times; I'd never get rid of him and put him in the side even if just to placate him somewhat. There aren't that many good DMs around.

I wouldn't argue with that.

[Fromola]

alonso, hamann, mascherano

He didn't play well as a partner for alonso. He played his best football in other positions with Alonso in the team. The two halves in istanbul being a case in point. Alonso was better alongside sissoko or hamann.

mascherano and hamann played well alongside Gerrard. The key there is both players loved the defensive work and nittygritty which allowed Gerrard to roam box to box. Same with hargreaves at times for England whereas him and lampard just couldnt function together.

[paulrazor]

He didn't play well as a partner for alonso. He played his best football in other positions with Alonso in the team. The two halves in istanbul being a case in point. Alonso was better alongside sissoko or hamann.

mascherano and hamann played well alongside Gerrard. The key there is both players loved the defensive work and nittygritty which allowed Gerrard to roam box to box. Same with hargreaves at times for England whereas him and lampard just couldnt function together.

seems often to be the case sometimes people have to do the donkey work or maybe sacrifice themselves for Gerrard to shine.

[GrkStav]

Over the seasons, 1a. who has Lucas played well with as a midfield parner? 1b. Is it just the Gerrard/Lucas axis which doesn't seem to click?


2. Who has Gerrard formed a decent partnership with in that area?

1a. Mascherano, Aurelio (yep), Spearing, Gerrard, Rossiter

1b. It wasn't a "match made in heaven" but it worked much better than people generally claim.

2. I think he formed a decent partnership with Lucas.

[Sangria]

1a. Mascherano, Aurelio (yep), Spearing, Gerrard, Rossiter

1b. It wasn't a "match made in heaven" but it worked much better than people generally claim.

2. I think he formed a decent partnership with Lucas.

You've missed out Henderson, in the game where Lucas got his knee injury. Also Sissoko. Actually, almost everyone fits well with Lucas.

[Fromola]

1a. Mascherano, Aurelio (yep), Spearing, Gerrard, Rossiter

1b. It wasn't a "match made in heaven" but it worked much better than people generally claim.

2. I think he formed a decent partnership with Lucas.

I think Gerrard and Lucas would have worked a lot better pre Gerrard and Lucas' long-term injuries. Lucas was carrying Charlie Adam on his back until he done his cruciate and Gerrard is obviously far better than that. Problem is since they've come back from that they've really suffered physically and fitness wise. Gerrard has suffered a lot in terms of mobility and losing his pace and power, whereas Lucas was never quick anyway and he struggles a bit over 90 minutes now, although you could claim that's when taking on extra workload in a midfield with Gerrard. In that midfield with Charlie Adam, Lucas covered so much ground over 90 minutes and carried the midfield whereas post-injury I don't think he could do that nearly as well over 90 minutes and visibly tires.

Early last season Gerrard and Lucas partnership was fine in the first half of games and we'd be winning but then in the second half they'd be out on their feet and we'd lose all control of the game. It happened in those three 1-0s but we held out.

[Draex]

Love the Sunday rags, off to Inter under Mankini..

[Fromola]

Love the Sunday rags, off to Inter under Mankini..

I bet his agent will be happy to see Gerrard's name linked with another club every week in the papers.

[Cid]

Off to inter my arse.

[Pistolero]

I bet his agent will be happy to see Gerrard's name linked with another club every week in the papers.

Patently not as happy as you and your merry band...

[Fromola]

Patently not as happy as you and your merry band...

He'll sign a contract here soon, all the bullshit is part of the negotiations.

[Shaved Crossbar]

Not sure why you're so hellbent on saying Lucas-Gerrard works GrkStav, they were abysmal together. We looked like we were sleepwalking with those two as the midfield duo.

[Fromola]

Not sure why you're so hellbent on saying Lucas-Gerrard works GrkStav, they were abysmal together. We looked like we were sleepwalking with those two as the midfield duo.

There's a lack of mobility and pace involved with the two of them which you just can't carry in the Premier League every week for your central midfield paring. There's also stamina issues. They're okay for one half but struggle over 90 and that was a big factor in our huge second half drop offs in the early months of last season because Lucas and Gerrard didn't have it in them over 90 minutes to cover the ground needed and had to pace their way through games.

It'd be a much more effective pairing in a league like France or Italy where the game is a lot slower.

[vblfc]

Gerrard proved last year, in a certain set-up, he can excel.  That & an incredible career, is why he would not have a problem finding another club (e.g. City) - He is a rare talent even at his twilight years.  No easy solution for Rodgers because Stevie is a working legend and still (at 80%) has a level of quality when it works that Torres, Luis, Alonso etc. all recognize and benefitted from.  It must be really tempting to keep tinkering to make it work.  Lucas also has a great player in him and showed against Madrid that he can do a job.  As much of the discussion points out - the challenge is a bit like we are building a jigsaw puzzle and some of the key pieces don't quite fit (and maybe we are not sure what the picture is on the box that we are trying to make).  Frustrating for us and I'm sure for Rodgers, but you could bet that both these could go to another club and excel for a couple of years.  Brendan needs to figure the puzzle out and make his decisions.

[steveeastend]

He'll sign a contract here soon, all the bullshit is part of the negotiations.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. It could be coming from the agent putting even more pressure on the club. I wouldn't bet on FSG be happy about that..

From what we know so far the negotiations are not easy while Gerrard not being happy losing his status as regular, Gerrard is for sure on a crossroad and it can go either way as LFC is not his only option for sure and probably his last chance for going for some experience somewhere else.

[Halcyon Lissome]

Not sure why you're so hellbent on saying Lucas-Gerrard works GrkStav, they were abysmal together. We looked like we were sleepwalking with those two as the midfield duo.

Because it wasn't abysmal. We were basically title-challenging/top spot with them in the first half of last season and although we were conceding too many shots by general consensus, we could only hope for that kind of stability at the moment.

Some people really stretch the bounds of reason with terms like 'abysmal', or 'poor'. These are terms you should only use when the team is on a truly bad run because of a certain facet. At worst, the pairing is workable.

[steveeastend]

Not sure why you're so hellbent on saying Lucas-Gerrard works GrkStav, they were abysmal together. We looked like we were sleepwalking with those two as the midfield duo.

Absymal? Whenever Lucas played the holding role and Gerrard in front of him it was superb and even when it was the other way around I can remember only ONE really bad game and there were other players playing a big part in that as well.

But those days are gone anyway, Gerrards legs are gone, it's over.

[Eeyore]

Because it wasn't abysmal. We were basically title-challenging/top spot with them in the first half of last season and although we were conceding too many shots by general consensus, we could only hope for that kind of stability at the moment.

Some people really stretch the bounds of reason with terms like 'abysmal', or 'poor'. These are terms you should only use when the team is on a truly bad run because of a certain facet. At worst, the pairing is workable.

How often did they play as a pair though mate. For me we generally had another body in there usually Henderson or Allen. Doing that might give you stability but it leaves you short in other areas. You look at the best central midfield two's and they can play as a two and get you at least parity, which leaves you stronger in other positions.

You look at Alonso-Mascherano or Keane-Scholes and they could dominate midfield three's. Has Gerrard ever really been able to do that in a two.

[Fromola]

I wouldn't be so sure of that. It could be coming from the agent putting even more pressure on the club. I wouldn't bet on FSG be happy about that..

From what we know so far the negotiations are not easy while Gerrard not being happy losing his status as regular, Gerrard is for sure on a crossroad and it can go either way as LFC is not his only option for sure and probably his last chance for going for some experience somewhere else.

If clubs are contacting Gerrard's reps then someone's happily leaking that to the papers. The whole interview that sparked this thread was calculated  to this end because without that you wouldn't be getting stories of different clubs being linked with the player and his contract wouldn't be a story.

The impasse comes down to terms. Whether it be length of contract, wages or reduced role in the team. Was it a coincidence that this interview came out a few days before Madrid when Rodgers said in Madrid he'd spoke to Gerrard the week before regarding his plans for upcoming games (i.e. not playing in Madrid). I doubt Gerrard wants to go and play in a minor league, or even move abroad and uproot his family, so i'd only see it as  an issue if a club like Man City were offering him much better terms than we are but even then he's not going to get any more game time than he would here, quite the contrary. Nor does he want to leave and play for another club. At the moment it's just lobbying for the best deal. I think the club need to stand their ground though and learn from the mistakes of Carragher's last contract.

[Halcyon Lissome]

How often did they play as a pair though mate. For me we generally had another body in there usually Henderson or Allen. Doing that might give you stability but it leaves you short in other areas. You look at the best central midfield two's and they can play as a two and get you at least parity, which leaves you stronger in other positions.

You look at Alonso-Mascherano or Keane-Scholes and they could dominate midfield three's. Has Gerrard ever really been able to do that in a two.

For the first half of the season they were the most used pairing IIRC. I remember the discussions even then: we kept winning and people kept complaining.

Comparing any of the current defensive duos in the league to the likes of Alonso-Mascherano or Keane-Scholes makes them look bad. The only one that compared is Chelsea's. No one else's. So while Lucas-Gerrard is not in that level, they are not abysmal and that's the point. They're definitely a decent pairing. Whenever I see that pair I know at the least we're going to do OK defensively and in attack. I'm not worried about it; they're two experienced players who know their roles.

Yet the way people talk about it you would think they're Championship level.

[Fromola]

How often did they play as a pair though mate. For me we generally had another body in there usually Henderson or Allen. Doing that might give you stability but it leaves you short in other areas. You look at the best central midfield two's and they can play as a two and get you at least parity, which leaves you stronger in other positions.

You look at Alonso-Mascherano or Keane-Scholes and they could dominate midfield three's. Has Gerrard ever really been able to do that in a two.

Lucas and Spearing at the back end of 10/11 was a better pairing than Lucas and Gerrard ever was. That was a genuine midfield two (without needing a Henderson to run himself into a stupor to carry it) with four forwards in front. Obvious Gerrard is light years better than Spearing as a player but in terms of balance would always have offered more as some part of that front four rather than screening the midfield with Lucas.

[Coolie High]

How often did they play as a pair though mate. For me we generally had another body in there usually Henderson or Allen. Doing that might give you stability but it leaves you short in other areas. You look at the best central midfield two's and they can play as a two and get you at least parity, which leaves you stronger in other positions.

You look at Alonso-Mascherano or Keane-Scholes and they could dominate midfield three's. Has Gerrard ever really been able to do that in a two.

[/b]

Yes they were dominating midfield threes so much, Ferguson felt he had to get Veron in for the CL nights.

We won a Cl with Gerrard playing in a two, same amount of CLs won with Keane in the team.

Saying that, most of Uniteds great work used to go through their wings and great attack, similar to the way we played last year, and that partnership you talked about also played in a PL era where they were coming up against midfield twos, more often than not, so not a great comparison.

[Halcyon Lissome]

Lucas and Spearing at the back end of 10/11 was a better pairing than Lucas and Gerrard ever was. That was a genuine midfield two with four forwards in front. Obvious Gerrard is light years better than Spearing as a player but in terms of balance would always have offered more as some part of that front four rather than screening the midfield with Lucas.

See Al; this nonsense. Lucas and Spearing are never in the same realm as Lucas-Gerrard. Just because we had a decent run for a few games with them doesn't make them a good pairing. Spearing is not even EPL level, he's a Championship level player.

[steveeastend]

If clubs are contacting Gerrard's reps then someone's happily leaking that to the papers. The whole interview that sparked this thread was calculated  to this end because without that you wouldn't be getting stories of different clubs being linked with the player and his contract wouldn't be a story.

The impasse comes down to terms. Whether it be length of contract, wages or reduced role in the team. Was it a coincidence that this interview came out a few days before Madrid when Rodgers said in Madrid he'd spoke to Gerrard the week before regarding his plans for upcoming games (i.e. not playing in Madrid). I doubt Gerrard wants to go and play in a minor league, or even move abroad and uproot his family, so i'd only see it as  an issue if a club like Man City were offering him much better terms than we are but even then he's not going to get any more game time than he would here, quite the contrary. Nor does he want to leave and play for another club. At the moment it's just lobbying for the best deal. I think the club need to stand their ground though and learn from the mistakes of Carragher's last contract.

Yeah, that's the way I see, Gerrard being a homebird playing for sure a role in that, but probably not as big?

If FSG won't offer the money his agent is expecting it could go either way as I don't think for a minute Gerrard would accept a pay cut AND losing his untouchable status as a regular.

At the moment I think it could end up with this season as the last one and Gerrard going for something completely different..

[Chris~]

How often did they play as a pair though mate. For me we generally had another body in there usually Henderson or Allen. Doing that might give you stability but it leaves you short in other areas. You look at the best central midfield two's and they can play as a two and get you at least parity, which leaves you stronger in other positions.

You look at Alonso-Mascherano or Keane-Scholes and they could dominate midfield three's. Has Gerrard ever really been able to do that in a two.

Alonso-Masch had Gerrard in front of them pretty much making it a three, it's like how City don't really play with just two midfielders, especially when Silva plays. Not sure how many times Scholes/Keane would have come up against three men midfield's, especially outside Europe where they weren't exactly dominant.

[Coolie High]

For the first half of the season they were the most used pairing IIRC. I remember the discussions even then: we kept winning and people kept complaining.

Comparing any of the current defensive duos in the league to the likes of Alonso-Mascherano or Keane-Scholes makes them look bad. The only one that compared is Chelsea's. No one else's. So while Lucas-Gerrard is not in that level, they are not abysmal and that's the point. They're definitely a decent pairing. Whenever I see that pair I know at the least we're going to do OK defensively and in attack. I'm not worried about it; they're two experienced players who know their roles.

Yet the way people talk about it you would think they're Championship level.

The thing is only the Alonso Masch statement stands up, even if their best football came in a midfield three, with Gerrard as a number 10.

Scholes and Keane was a partnership that thrived in an era where everyone in the league was playing a two man midfield, but when it got to big CLs games, many a time Scholes was dropped in favour of Nicky Butt, and Ferguson also went out and acquired Veron in order for them all to play in a midfield three...

By the second time of winning it, United had dropped the 4-4-2 in place of a 4-3-3 which contained an attack of Ronaldo Rooney and Tevez.

[Fromola]

See Al; this nonsense. Lucas and Spearing are never in the same realm as Lucas-Gerrard. Just because we had a decent run for a few games with them doesn't make them a good pairing. Spearing is not even EPL level, he's a Championship level player.

No Spearing wasn't good enough but it worked as a 4-2-3-1. Lucas and Gerrard pre their long-term injuries would have been fine there but not without their mobility and any pace. They need another midfielder with them.

In the summer of 2011 what we most needed was an upgrade on Spearing to pair with Lucas. Instead we signed Charlie Adam.

[Halcyon Lissome]

No Spearing wasn't good enough but it worked as a 4-2-3-1. Lucas and Gerrard pre their long-term injuries would have been fine there but not without their mobility and any pace. They need another midfielder with them.

In the summer of 2011 what we most needed was an upgrade on Spearing to pair with Lucas. Instead we signed Charlie Adam.

You ask any professional involved with the sport which midfield they'd prefer and it will be Lucas-Gerrard every time. You'd be laughed out of the room for even asking it. People say some of the silliest things on these forums as if reality doesn't exist.

I should also remind you by the end of that time with them in that team we started losing. This is the kind of argument some posters brought up last season saying we picked up more points without Suarez in the side to insinuate that the team is better without him. Geezus...

[Fromola]

Yeah, that's the way I see, Gerrard being a homebird playing for sure a role in that, but probably not as big?

If FSG won't offer the money his agent is expecting it could go either way as I don't think for a minute Gerrard would accept a pay cut AND losing his untouchable status as a regular.

At the moment I think it could end up with this season as the last one and Gerrard going for something completely different..

It comes down to hand. If the club say "we want you to stay, but these are the terms we're offering, take it or leave it", then he might be tempted to go somewhere else. But what would tempt him? The hope from the Gerrard camp is the club think "We can't possibly let Gerrard leave, you want 2 years with the same wages and first choice status? Here you go Stevie, please sign here". I'd guess we're more likely to see Rodgers being scenario number 2 and FSG scenario 1. It's a bit of a poker game.

[steveeastend]

It comes down to hand. If the club say "we want you to stay, but these are the terms we're offering, take it or leave it", then he might be tempted to go somewhere else. But what would tempt him? The hope from the Gerrard camp is the club think "We can't possibly let Gerrard leave, you want 2 years with the same wages and first choice status? Here you go Stevie, please sign here". I'd guess we're more likely to see Rodgers being scenario number 2 and FSG scenario 1. It's a bit of a poker game.

I think at this point, it comes down to the money only but I cannot imagine FSG going against their own rules for the sake of keeping Gerrard happy. Doesn't make any sense...

There are indeed, a lot of options for GErrard to go when FSG staying strong on this, which I do believe. There is still MLS and other clubs as he doesn't have to move his family for a year only or so...

I think it will be his last season, I really do.

[Eeyore]

See Al; this nonsense. Lucas and Spearing are never in the same realm as Lucas-Gerrard. Just because we had a decent run for a few games with them doesn't make them a good pairing. Spearing is not even EPL level, he's a Championship level player.

Isn't that the three legged table argument though. you don't need a world class 4th leg to make the table function properly. A less talented player who is a natural in that position can often do a better job because he instinctively does that job.

Momo couldn't hold a candle to Stevie in terms of ability but we won a colossal 63.22% of games he played in.

Same with Wellbeck at United in Ferguson's last season the win percentage went up a ridiculous amount when Wellbeck played.