Topic: Liverpool 0 - Real Madrid 3 FT

[SexyFootball]

I don't think he's got the moves or the touch at the moment...

I agree, I know he is only 20 but I haven't seen ANYTHING from him yet, any game iv'e seen him play, he's looked lackluster & his passing leaves a hell of a lot to be desired.  He was obvioisly producing the goods at Benfica, why not with us?
Wheres all this acceleration/ speed I've heard of? He was left for dead twice last night by Marcello...

[unusg]

I don't think he's got the moves or the touch at the moment...

Gets!! cant get the song out of my head now.   ,  , 

[steveeastend]

The men -v- boys analogy is a very convenient one but way too simplistic and doesn't begin to explain why the opening quarter of the game was ferociously contested yet fairly evenly matched



Henderson and Allen are not at that level and never will be but both are decent players who complemented by the on form Coutinho and Sterling provided some decent play. With Luis and Sturridge up front I suspect they'd have provided something rather different than what finally went down.

You answered your own question. I was NOT refering to physcial attributes, I was refering to the quality of talent. With "talents" like Henderson and Allen we won't get anywhere on that level. They may be good against Southampton or whatever but when you wanna play against the Madrids and Munichs in europe you can afford one average talented player only on the pitch in order to PLAY and pass the ball as a unit which is a necessity on that level.

[Timbo's Goals]

I can understand you not wanting to name names, but if Markovic had started usefully, matching Sterling for example, then there wouldn't be too much worry over the attack. Lallana has started well. We needed Markovic to come good early to retain the attacking setup from last year effectively - he hasn't, we haven't. It's good in the sense that now the manager has to focus on building a better team, one able to absorb attacks better. If he succeeds, then a team founded on organisation, where the manager holds the key, the blueprints, will last longer than one founded on a reliance on individual quality and ultra high focus on attack.

You've blown the cover!!

 

Yeah, I do see what you mean. And it was moreorless the way I was viewing it until it suddenly dawned on me with Coutinho's cameo on Sunday just how much we had relied last season on the remorseless world class displays from the quartet of Suarez, Sturridge, Coutinho and Sterling and thus realised what actually needed to be brought to the table with the signings to emulate those absences. And from what we've seen up to now the lad looks a long long way off what is required perhaps mentally [character-wise] as much as anything but also in terms of the playing attributes we all believed he possessed.

That said, he was never going to provide the cutting edge as a Suarez/Sturridge replacement so it in no way exempts the management from the failure to replace like for like style if not quality the two front men I've been banging on about.

As for your point on manager bue print etc. I buy that to an extent but i think if anybody wishes to find  the perfect example of the old saying that "it's all about players" then us last season with our world class attacking quartet is as good an example as any.   

[Timbo's Goals]

You answered your own question. I was NOT refering to physcial attributes, I was refering to the quality of talent. With "talents" like Henderson and Allen we won't get anywhere on that level. They may be good against Southampton or whatever but when you wanna play against the Madrids and Munichs in europe you can afford one average talented player only on the pitch in order to PLAY and pass the ball as a unit which is a necessity on that level.

I don't think we're a million miles apart in how we see it and I doubt if anyone would label either hendo or allen as being up to the Kroos, Alonso, Modric, Isco level but they're by no means as far away as you inferred with your original men -v- boys analogy. That's basically what I was referencing. And provided their effort can be complemented by top class/budding top class attacking performers like Coutinho, Sterling and Sturridge then they're not going to be that far away.

[steveeastend]

I don't think we're a million miles apart in how we see it and I doubt if anyone would label either hendo or allen as being up to the Kroos, Alonso, Modric, Isco level but they're by no means as far away as you inferred with your original men -v- boys analogy. That's basically what I was referencing. And provided their effort can be complemented by top class/budding top class attacking performers like Coutinho, Sterling and Sturridge then they're not going to be that far away.

They are lightyears off mate. Unfortunately.. Without top players like Suarez and Sterling surrounding them they are lost.

I would call it the "Charly Adam" syndrom... there has been some hype building up for whatever reason when it comes to these players but in reality you wouldn't notice them within a Stoke side..

[Miltonred]

First goal, a really good one, but Skrtel's first movement when Ronaldo touches the ball off to James is far too slow, Ronaldo has taken three steps into the space between him and Lovren before Skrtel tracks him. Skrtel is inches away from getting a foot on the ball, so to my mind if he had tracked Ronaldo even one step out of the three sooner, he makes the clearance. Ball watching will do that.

Second goal. Johnson is marking  Benzema in the initial set play, the ball doesn't get cleared and he drifts inside the posts leaving his man to drop into the space behind him. The chip from Kroos is inch perfect and Johnson cannot backtrack fast enough to get a challenge on Benzema who now has all the time in the world to  place his header.  Johnson leaves his man. Why?  Ball watching.

Third goal Johnson marking Benzema on the corner. The ball goes beyond the two of them and Johnson leaves Benzema in favour of taking up a position on the line. Benzema is free and slots home the returned header. Why did Johnson leave Benzema? Ball watching.


Its really basic, basic stuff, but it is the kind of innate response that some "defenders" have in situations when they are watching the play. The very best defenders stay with their man because they know that it only goes wrong when a man is left on his own. Track the man not the ball, mark the man not the space.  Johnson and Skrtel will never be good defenders in those situations against quality players, because they are ball watching and miss the movement of the attackers.

Nothing Brendan can do about that except sign players who don't do it.

[Timbo's Goals]

They are light years off mate. Unfortunately.. Without top players like Suarez and Sterling surrounding them they are lost.

Light years, men -v - boys, lost?

Think you're far too harsh on the pair of them. But, if that's how lowly you rate them the so be it.

[redoneusa]

I am tired of the same press conferences - we gave away <insert sloppy goal or goal(s)>. Outplayed by the better team. And yet another off day for Mario. If the whole Mario things turns around it would be a bloody miracle. Onwards and upwards.

Heskey would of probably offered more upfront for us than Mario. Probably wouldn't of swapped shirts at half time either.

[Welshred]

Hold on...there are people out there who think Glen Johnson had a good game last night?

[steveeastend]

Hold on...there are people out there who think Glen Johnson had a good game last night?

Glen Johnson lost me yesterday, and there is no way back here. I am sure it was nice having some banter with Christiano, yeah..

Some players are happy just to be there, but we need player who expect themselves to play on that level as a given and want to win. We lost our key figure last summer here..

[Welshred]

Glen Johnson lost me yesterday, and there is no way back here. I am sure it was nice having some banter with Christiano, yeah..

Some players are happy just to be there, but we need player who expect themselves to play on that level as a given and want to win. We lost our key figure last summer here..

I don't care about that. I will support anyone who puts 100% effort into the match and Johnson didn't do that yesterday. He was constantly out of position, constantly giving the ball away, constantly half arsed slow jogging back to position when we lost the ball high up the pitch and shitting out of tackles up and down the right flank. If he does give a fuck about this football club then he gave a great impersonation of a bloke who doesn't last night! He was fucking awful and I'm not the only one on the Kop who thought that either!

[steveeastend]

I don't care about that. I will support anyone who puts 100% effort into the match and Johnson didn't do that yesterday. He was constantly out of position, constantly giving the ball away, constantly half arsed slow jogging back to position when we lost the ball high up the pitch and shitting out of tackles up and down the right flank. If he does give a fuck about this football club then he gave a great impersonation of a bloke who doesn't last night! He was fucking awful and I'm not the only one on the Kop who thought that either!

Exactly.

[AndyMuller]

I don't care about that. I will support anyone who puts 100% effort into the match and Johnson didn't do that yesterday. He was constantly out of position, constantly giving the ball away, constantly half arsed slow jogging back to position when we lost the ball high up the pitch and shitting out of tackles up and down the right flank. If he does give a fuck about this football club then he gave a great impersonation of a bloke who doesn't last night! He was fucking awful and I'm not the only one on the Kop who thought that either!

I'm glad somebody on here has the same opinion as mine about his performance last night.

[Skidder.]

Getting a bit tedious with these Rafa comments seems like the wums are everywhere!

I think some people tend to live in 2005 myself. Can't say I blame them, it was a great few years. But what is done, is done. He (Rafa), had his own tactical issues and I think some people would do well to remember them too.

[El Lobo]

I'm glad somebody on here has the same opinion as mine about his performance last night.

Certainly not the only three

He's been generally poor and not fussed for far too long now. The really galling thing is this contract talk, and whenever he gets asked he's sort of like well I haven't even been offered one yet, can you believe that?! As if his performances haven't been generally poor for a good few seasons now. And now it's like if he gets one, great. But if not, so be it.

And he's a good player. Both attacking and defensively, he's a quality RB. But his attitude is absolutely noxious. If you can't get motivated playing for this side over the last 18 months, with the football we've been playing, knowing your contract is soon up, then frankly I don't even think he deserves the opportunity to try any more. Bin him off in January for whatever we can get.

[muyuu]

I think some people tend to live in 2005 myself. Can't say I blame them, it was a great few years. But what is done, is done. He (Rafa), had his own tactical issues and I think some people would do well to remember them too.

That team seemed to have not just more quality, but also much more heart. The team had more heart last season as well, I'm not sure what happened and I don't think it's just about Suarez because we did fine without him last season.

[El Lobo]

That team seemed to have not just more quality, but also much more heart. The team had more heart last season as well, I'm not sure what happened and I don't think it's just about Suarez because we did fine without him last season.

I don't think it had more quality, but definitely more characters. A prime Stevie, a prime Carra, Hyypia, Didi and Xabi.

[jambutty]

Sorry what? I'm pretty sure they all understand and speak English.

2 Centrebacks and a goalkeeper that CLEARLY do not share a common language presents a problem.

Soz.  Irony and sarcasm are difficult to convey.

[Chakan]

Soz.  Irony and sarcasm are difficult to convey.

No worries, they certainly don't all speak football.

[LiverBirdKop]

I think some people tend to live in 2005 myself. Can't say I blame them, it was a great few years. But what is done, is done. He (Rafa), had his own tactical issues and I think some people would do well to remember them too.

I live in 2005 a couple of weeks a year. I also spend some time in 2018. I don't like to go too far back or too far forward.

[God's Left Peg]

The media are making more out of it than it is really, knowing it'll 'cause debate. Seen some suggestions around that its detracting from the real point. (No pun intended)... There's a hint that Mario had just given up at half-time and him not being on the bench on the second half adds more petrol. It's a fairly big statement to make and I think Rooney got a bit of stick once for throwing off a shirt (Was it Rooney?), a while back.

There might be more to it, there might not; who knows? But it's the media's job to speculate and cause debate. Personally, I think we've got bigger issues concerning the team, but the question for me is whether or not Balotelli is at the centre of those issues. Whatever the weather, it is fairly clear that the lad is looking like a misfit at this moment in time. That may change with a different approach, but whilst he isn't really doing anything to silence his critics, he isn't really doing anything to quantify his transfer.

I think the Madrid game was a bit of a tell. We did show signs of what made us such an attacking threat last season, but by that same token, the game also highlighted how much of a predicament we are in at the moment. Our common tactic seemed very much there, hit them from the off, have them on the back foot and then hit them on the counter as they try to claw back. A bit like sinking sand, the more you try to get out of it, the more you get sucked in. Watching our tactics from last season, I'm always reminded about a certain Anthony Hopkins film, "The Edge". The tactic used to kill a bear is to prod and stab at the Bear with a long and sharp stick. Inflict damage in order to rile the Bear and instigate it into an enraged, full on standing lunge attack. When it does lunge, you simply steady the base of the stick and angle it in such a way that the bear impales itself. Keeping with this shitty analogy, our tip at the moment seems blunt and fucking shite; but what Madrid and the likes of Chelsea, Villa and others seem to have worked out is that patience and perseverance seem to in fact rile us.

It's a pretty sad state of affairs when one has to express their footballing views/opinions via the form of a crappy film. Fuck it, I've read some other wildy lucid accounts of the breakdown of our tactics (As well some very eloquent ones), so shite-on-a-stick, one more isn't going to make any odds.

Don't do yourself or your shitty analogy down. It made enough sense to me.

[LiverBirdKop]

No worries, they certainly don't all speak football.

 

[robgomm]

They are lightyears off mate. Unfortunately.. Without top players like Suarez and Sterling surrounding them they are lost.

I would call it the "Charly Adam" syndrom... there has been some hype building up for whatever reason when it comes to these players but in reality you wouldn't notice them within a Stoke side..

What a bit of nonsense this is. Henderson has been excellent, it doesn't mean he will pull us through against Real Madrid. Some people look at players and their roles in our team rather than just saying X is better than Y.

[leivapool]

First goal, a really good one, but Skrtel's first movement when Ronaldo touches the ball off to James is far too slow, Ronaldo has taken three steps into the space between him and Lovren before Skrtel tracks him. Skrtel is inches away from getting a foot on the ball, so to my mind if he had tracked Ronaldo even one step out of the three sooner, he makes the clearance. Ball watching will do that.

Second goal. Johnson is marking  Benzema in the initial set play, the ball doesn't get cleared and he drifts inside the posts leaving his man to drop into the space behind him. The chip from Kroos is inch perfect and Johnson cannot backtrack fast enough to get a challenge on Benzema who now has all the time in the world to  place his header.  Johnson leaves his man. Why?  Ball watching.

Third goal Johnson marking Benzema on the corner. The ball goes beyond the two of them and Johnson leaves Benzema in favour of taking up a position on the line. Benzema is free and slots home the returned header. Why did Johnson leave Benzema? Ball watching.


Its really basic, basic stuff, but it is the kind of innate response that some "defenders" have in situations when they are watching the play. The very best defenders stay with their man because they know that it only goes wrong when a man is left on his own. Track the man not the ball, mark the man not the space.  Johnson and Skrtel will never be good defenders in those situations against quality players, because they are ball watching and miss the movement of the attackers.

Nothing Brendan can do about that except sign players who don't do it.

Course there's is something Rodgers could do,  he could pick the fit and healthy Manquillo,  or the fit and healthy Toure.  We actually have some options,  but BR never plays them.  It's not like our defensive is invincible and he doesn't want to change it is it.  Go figure.........

[redintweed]

Is Steve Peters still working wih the club? To me we look like a deer in the headlights. When we didn't score in the first 20 and Real scored their first, largely against the run of play, I thought our heads dropped just that little bit and it gave Real the edge they needed to drive home their advantage. To me it looks like a mental problem. Last season it didn't seem to bother us as much if we shipped a goal after dominating for a while. We knew we had goals in the team and we stuck to our plan for the most part. Maybe we showed Real too much respect.  But this season we just look a little lost. It almost looked like some of our lads knew if we didn't score early then we were screwed. We just look bereft of ideas at the moment and to be honest, will Sturridge coming back solve them? This is Brendan's first real test as the Liverpool Manager. The media are going to be hounding him from now on and the inevitable whoppers will be calling for his head. Pressure will build on the team and it will be a test of the mental side of our game, hence why I ask is Steve Peters still about?

I have faith in Brendan and most of the squad. I just think that we might have to look at our transfer policy a bit closer. Maybe we need to start buying a mix of potential and proven talent instead of just potential alone. How I would have loved Xabi out there last night just to add that calming influence. I watched him against Roma and he is stiill superb! I will say that unless Mario bucks his ideas up then he will be out in January or most certainly the summer. Even his agent said it was last chance saloon at a big club for him when he came here.

[steveeastend]

Course there's is something Rodgers could do,  he could pick the fit and healthy Manquillo,  or the fit and healthy Toure.  We actually have some options,  but BR never plays them.  It's not like our defensive is invincible and he doesn't want to change it is it.  Go figure.........

We don't even consider Sakho... or Borini.. what the fuck do we have a squad for?

[Welshred]

We don't even consider Sakho... or Borini.. what the fuck do we have a squad for?

Seeing as Sakho is currently injured I wouldn't want him anywhere near the team!

[Chakan]

Seeing as Sakho is currently injured I wouldn't want him anywhere near the team!

He hasn't been injured all season though.

[Welshred]

He hasn't been injured all season though.

No. He's also been seen throwing his toys out of his pram and underperforming like the rest of the defence.

[Chakan]

No. He's also been seen throwing his toys out of his pram and underperforming like the rest of the defence.

Think he's been our best CB, my opinion of course. And i'd throw my toys as well if I was left out of the game over Toure.

[TSC]

I don't care about that. I will support anyone who puts 100% effort into the match and Johnson didn't do that yesterday. He was constantly out of position, constantly giving the ball away, constantly half arsed slow jogging back to position when we lost the ball high up the pitch and shitting out of tackles up and down the right flank. If he does give a fuck about this football club then he gave a great impersonation of a bloke who doesn't last night! He was fucking awful and I'm not the only one on the Kop who thought that either!

I asked the question yesterday why exactly he was playing, and also why he played against QPR also.  Was Manquillo injured?  Dunno.  While Manquillo hasn't set the world alight he's a much better option than Johnson, at defending anyway.  Let's not forget Johnson's contract runs out this season and it looks like he's not going to be signing another.  If you believe the press he's not prepared to accept a hefty drop.  Therefore is his approach or attitude a surprise?  It was embarrassing seeing him attempt to laugh and joke with Ronaldo yesterday, especially at a corner.  And especially as Ronaldo etc were giving him the run around.

[steveeastend]

No. He's also been seen throwing his toys out of his pram and underperforming like the rest of the defence.

Hire and fire, that's what competition is for. If a group of players is played despite being equally shite there is trouble ahead. And there already is..

[AndyMuller]

Certainly not the only three

He's been generally poor and not fussed for far too long now. The really galling thing is this contract talk, and whenever he gets asked he's sort of like well I haven't even been offered one yet, can you believe that?! As if his performances haven't been generally poor for a good few seasons now. And now it's like if he gets one, great. But if not, so be it.

And he's a good player. Both attacking and defensively, he's a quality RB. But his attitude is absolutely noxious. If you can't get motivated playing for this side over the last 18 months, with the football we've been playing, knowing your contract is soon up, then frankly I don't even think he deserves the opportunity to try any more. Bin him off in January for whatever we can get.

I honestly thought he would of been sold in the summer transfer window due to the dire performances he put in last season and here he is starting against Real Madrid. Crazy.

[Romford_Red]

As far as player attitudes go, I thought it was pretty shocking for the Captain to come out and say that "These are BONUS games that the team should go out and enjoy", in the press conference.

I've no agenda against Gerrard, but if that is what he is saying publicly, then how does he expect the team to go about the game?

[TSC]

As far as player attitudes go, I thought it was pretty shocking for the Captain to come out and say that "These are BONUS games that the team should go out and enjoy", in the press conference.

I've no agenda against Gerrard, but if that is what he is saying publicly, then how does he expect the team to go about the game?

Think it was more relating to the fact all champions league were effectively 'bonus games' following qualification last yr.  However it was an odd way to put it I thought. 

[swoopy]

Hold on...there are people out there who think Glen Johnson had a good game last night?

Surely not

[harryc]

As far as player attitudes go, I thought it was pretty shocking for the Captain to come out and say that "These are BONUS games that the team should go out and enjoy", in the press conference.

I've no agenda against Gerrard, but if that is what he is saying publicly, then how does he expect the team to go about the game?

Even more shocking was his performance and lack of leadership more so after Real scored their first goal.
Where was the leading by example thundering tackles to bring Real down to earth something the crowd could roar on.
Bar the first 15 mins It was all a bit of a whimper really.....

Fuck it we will do them next time.

[SuperStevieNicol]

Last night highlighted a few things............Mignolet isn't a commanding goalkeeper, Lovren is all over the place, Johnson playing like he's on drugs and Balotelli is a total waste of space.

On a positive, Allen looked good, especially first half. Lallana made a big difference and Coutinho and Sterling both showed glimpses of real class and quality.

[Always_A_Red]

Hire and fire, that's what competition is for. If a group of players is played despite being equally shite there is trouble ahead. And there already is..

Hit the nail there. BR obviously has his favourites. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see. Most players that leave under Rodgers have left on bad terms with the manager (Sahin, Downing, Reina, Agger etc). The next ones will be Sakho & Lucas. Its worrying to be honest.

If Steven Gerrard was called Christian Poulson he would have been dropped months ago. Instead he plays 90 mins every game because he is the managers favourite and he also doesn't have the balls to make a big decision. Im not saying we should get rid of Gerrard, just saying that he needs to be rotated because his performances do not warrant him playing 90 minutes every game.