Topic: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)

[Yorkykopite]

Snitches get got, yo

Who are the snitches? The poor innocent buggers who were executed. Or the ones who shopped them to the paranoid Hamas regime which will believe anything?

[Libero]

What the hell?

Executed? Killed?

Normally, on that side of the apartheid wall, the BBC and other news outlets usually use terms like "Died".


Hmm, strange happenings ... Oh Wait!   

[Libero]

Still flippant about deaths I see. Good on you.

What the?  How did you reach that wrongful conclusion?

and when you've answered that, why keep on trolling me fella?

[bigbonedrawky]

also targeted a house of worship

No they didn't the only Houses of Worship which have been Targeted are in Gaza.
They may wish they could but Hamas don't have the tech or ability to "target" their Rockets, if they could they would of killed more than 28 people since 2001.
It wouldn't surprise me if the US 4th of July celebration rockets have killed more people in that time.

[BUSHMILLS]

Snitches get got, yo

Human rights campaigners denounced the shootings as "extrajudicial killings" carried out by "death squads" without due process.

"These executions are plainly against the law and have to be stopped," said Hamdi Shaqqura, deputy director of the Gaza City-based Palestinian Centre for Human Rights (PCHR). "It has never been more important for Gaza to obey the rule of law and human rights than during this current military onslaught. Unfortunately, there's a very angry mood against collaborators, accusing them of being behind the crimes and assassinations committed by Israel, so generally the public is supportive of the executions."

Kenneth Roth, the executive director of Human Rights Watch, wrote on Twitter: "No justification for Hamas summary execution of 11, informer or not. No due process. Executions always wrong."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/gaza/11050816/Hamas-shoots-18-Israeli-informants-after-leaders-killed-in-airstrikes.html

[RojoLeón]

Another 31 people were killed in other Israeli strikes in Gaza since on Thursday, raising the overall death toll to 2,087 in 46 days of conflict.

Khamas kill twenty and they are monsters that are BREAKING THE LAW. Israel kill 2050 more people, and nary a peep from the same indignant Human Rights Champions

[BUSHMILLS]

Another 31 people were killed in other Israeli strikes in Gaza since on Thursday, raising the overall death toll to 2,087 in 46 days of conflict.

Khamas kill twenty and they are monsters that are BREAKING THE LAW. Israel kill 2050 more people, and nary a peep from the same indignant Human Rights Champions

Yeah, the Gaza-based Palestinian Center for Human Rights is obviously nothing more than a front for Zionists.

[RojoLeón]

Yeah, the Gaza-based Palestinian Center for Human Rights is obviously nothing more than a front for Zionists.

Yeah, but you called me a hypocrite earlier and I'm saying it clearly takes one to know one 

[Libero]

Yeah, the Gaza-based Palestinian Center for Human Rights is obviously nothing more than a front for Zionists.

No one was saying that mate... just that murder is murder. 

and perhaps the deaths of the innocents, particularly women and children should get / gets more attention - regardless of which "side" you may find yourself on for whatever reason.

[Broad Spectrum]

I'm sure Mossad or the CIA have never acted in such an inhuman way...

[Libero]

I'm sure Mossad or the CIA have never acted in such an inhuman way...

Yeah true, but at least Mossad (and to a lesser extent) the CIA went about it in a more deceptive manner.

After all, it was their motto: בתחבולות תעשה לך מלחמה ("By Way Of Deception, Thou Shalt Do War.")

Disclaimer: People will debate whether it is "deception" or "wise counsel" and that's largely based on which language is used to translate this ancient proverb of course.

Anyway, let's hope peace breaks out eventually.

[Yorkykopite]

The Primo Levi quote is wrong too. The second half of it is simply made up.

[Yorkykopite]

More on the gruesome massacre in Gaza.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/23/world/middleeast/israel-gaza.html?action=click&contentCollection=Middle%20East&region=Footer&module=MoreInSection&pgtype=article&_r=0

The classic Fascist strategy. Pick a scapegoat for a military setback. Arrest by the secret police. Conviction by a secret police tribunal. Murder. Make it as public and terrifying as possible.

[bigbonedrawky]

More on the gruesome massacre in Gaza.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/23/world/middleeast/israel-gaza.html?action=click&contentCollection=Middle%20East&region=Footer&module=MoreInSection&pgtype=article&_r=0

The classic Fascist strategy. Pick a scapegoat for a military setback. Arrest by the secret police. Conviction by a secret police tribunal. Murder. Make it as public and terrifying as possible.

When you talk of "gruesome massacre in Gaza" to what are you referring ?

[Yorkykopite]

When you talk of "gruesome massacre in Gaza" to what are you referring ?

Public executions of men huddled in a corner with a crowd of onlookers cheering the executioners on.

[Libero]

There is no argument. I speak fluent Hebrew. Do you? It's 'Wise Counsel'.

End of discussion.

Yes, and I'm even "eligible" for  עֲלִיָּה  - would I oblige? HELL NO!

 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3SJYRkI2hM

[bigbonedrawky]

Public executions of men huddled in a corner with a crowd of onlookers cheering the executioners on.

I thought you was, but you might of been speaking about the deaths of over 2000 people or even 500 dead babies and children.

For what its worth those alleged Spies / informants should of been taken to the Courthouse for a fair trial with a Lawyer to defend them and then sent to the Prison if found guilty. I don't think Gaza has a Courthouse or Prison though.
   
If you want public executions by the thousand check out what's going on in the fight against Boko Harem...

[Libero]

See the irony behind the Kharedim building settlements and yet refusing to serve in the military? I do. So did Tommy Lapid.

Hang on Nick,

you can't group every single person / individual together. 

Remember the concept of collective punishment?

[bigbonedrawky]

I don't get this attitude. So because someone else executes more people more often, these executions shouldn't be condemned?

Its not a attitude or a comparison it's just another story and I thought t'other Yorky might be interested.
(I couldn't be arsed looking for a Boko Harem thread and I cant be arsed opening one )

Because Israel has killed Palestinians with their air strikes, these executions shouldn't be condemned?

Of course they should be condemned just like any other country that executes prisoners, however I didn't mention the 2000 deaths in relation to the executions.
It was the term "Massacre in Gaza "which sounded a bit ridiculous when attributed to the deaths of 18 suspected Spies/Informants, especially when the real Massacre in Gaza took so many.
He was right about Fascist Strategy which lead to the Massacre though. 
 

[Alan_X]

It was the term "Massacre in Gaza "which sounded a bit ridiculous when attributed to the deaths of 18 suspected Spies/Informants,

What's the cut off point for a massacre?

[SadRed]

What's the cut off point for a massacre?

When killing is 'indiscriminate'.  Like when Israel bombs the shit out civilian areas and babies die. Thats a massacre. To call execution of suspected spies, who may or may not have received a fair trial, during a state of war, as a massacre is an affront to people who have actually been massacred like the innocent kids playing on a beach.

Not that it shouldnt be condemned (if they didnt have a fair trail) but calling it a massacre is just silly.

[Alan_X]

When killing is 'indiscriminate'.  Like when Israel bombs the shit out civilian areas and babies die. Thats a massacre. To call execution of suspected spies, who may or may not have received a fair trial, during a state of war is an affront to people who have actually been massacred like the innocent kids playing on a beach.

You should tell the seventeen people (mostly children) killed at Dunblane that their deaths don't meet your criteria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_school_massacre

And the fact that they 'may or may not' have received a fair trial doesn't matter?

Sometimes it's a good idea to take a step back and think before you post.

[bigbonedrawky]

What's the cut off point for a massacre?

In terms of numbers it probably starts with Two and ends with a infinite amount.
In terms of Gaza and the history books "The Gruesome Massacre in Gaza" 2014 will refer to the deaths of over 2000 people.

[SadRed]

You should tell the seventeen people (mostly children) killed at Dunblane that their deaths don't meet your criteria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_school_massacre

And the fact that they 'may or may not' have received a fair trial doesn't matter?

Sometimes it's a good idea to take a step back and think before you post.

They do meet my criteria because they were killed indiscriminately. Did he pick what children to kill? No. He killed them indiscriminately.

It does matter, because if they were spies, and the law of the land proscribes death penalty for that, will you call that a massacre? Are people being executed in USA who are recevied death penalties being massacred?

Yes, I agree, you do need to take a step back and think about what you post. And also try and stop lecturing everyone what to do and what not to do, rather try and debate the point.

Its literally ridiculous to call executions as massacres. No one in the entire media is describing executions of spies as massacres, and for good reason.

[SadRed]

Oh they were spies were they? Based on what evidence? How were they not rounded up indiscriminately? There was no trial to prove they were anything but regular people.

Why do I keep being surprised at some of the things said in this thread? To some of you being right is more important than people's lives, as long as it fits your narrative.

I am sorry nicky but please be honest here. Where has it been reported there they were random people? They were suspected of being spies, and as I said if they did not receive a fair trial, they must be condemned. And I said that. Just read my post again.

You are really stretching it here, these are executions, and if there was no trial they must be condemned. But really the point here is to not condemn it but to show how evil Hamas is. Thats what suits the narrative. Not that they are not evil, but calling them massacre is just ridiculous.

[bigbonedrawky]

Its literally ridiculous to call executions as massacres. No one in the entire media is describing executions of spies as massacres, and for good reason.

I wouldn't say its totally ridiculous to call it a massacre (in its literal sense  ) because ultimately people have been killed and I don't really think it makes a difference if its Indiscriminate or Targeted either.
It just seems ridiculous to label it "The Gruesome Massacre in Gaza"


 

[SadRed]

I wouldn't say its totally ridiculous to call it a massacre (in its literal sense  ) because ultimately people have been killed and I don't really think it makes a difference if its Indiscriminate of Targeted either.
It just seems ridiculous to label it "The Gruesome Massacre in Gaza"

I dont disagree with you here, and I said it must be condemned if they did not recieve fair trial. But its only what word to use, the word massacre is usually used when the killing is indiscriminate. Doesnt make killing innocents any better though.

[SadRed]

So basically what you guys are saying is that I can get away with killing anyone I want as long as I deem them to be spies. Or enemy combatants.

You walked right out of Bibi's security briefing didn't you?

Who said you can get away with that?

Come on just be fair here - Israel targets Hamas top commander, killing his wife and child. Then 3 other top commanders are targetted. Some one is telling Israel where they are? Are you trying to say there are no spies in Gaza? They rounded up suspected spies and killed them. Its a country in war. If they did not recieve a trial, thats condemnable and murder. But what do you expect from Hamas? Really? A fair trial, reading them their rights, and access to an attorney?

[Libero]

a) It's Mr. English to you.
b) I can.
c) I do admire your ability to avoid answering questions, and saying so much without ever actually saying anything. Should go into politics.

  Say what Mr English? 

OK, let's start again; How about you ask me a question first no?

Anyway, regarding the Hungarian Mr Lapid, he was entitled to his own (secular) opinion, but he really couldn't pick on an easier target could he?

Forever mouthing off on TV, and a real bedfellow of Sharon's.  But unlike Sharon, did Mr Lapid Serve on the front line?  No he somehow got away with some obscure mechanical assignment....

But! He couldn't wait to mouth off against the righteous people of the book - who were against the conflict - urging them to get their tin hats on and die.

Who said the secular can't be fanatical eh? and they don't get more fanatical than Mr Lapid

[Alan_X]

.

You've jumped the shark mate. So obsessed with maintaining a black and white, good vs evil view of what's going on in Gaza that you will happily dismiss the summary execution of 18 people on the streets.

[SadRed]

You've jumped the shark mate. So obsessed with maintaining a black and white, good vs evil view of what's going on in Gaza that you will happily dismiss the summary execution of 18 people on the streets.

Atleast you called it executions. I dont know what you are reading mate but when I said it is condemnable it clearly doesnt mean happily dismissing it.

But for someone to call execution of 'suspected' spies as a massacre in Gaza when thousands of innocent people have been killed, 16,000 homes have been destroyed and UNRWA schools have been bombed is just taking the piss.

[BUSHMILLS]

What's the cut off point for a massacre?

Seven people were murdered in The St Valentine's Day Massacre.

But seven doesn't cut it in this day and age, apparently.

Perhaps when they remake the movie, they'll call it The St. Valentine's Day Unfortunate Incident.

[Yorkykopite]

For what its worth those alleged Spies / informants should of been taken to the Courthouse for a fair trial with a Lawyer to defend them and then sent to the Prison if found guilty. I don't think Gaza has a Courthouse or Prison though.

Ain't the breaks and mortar mate. Gaza lacks a government with a sense of justice. They could have a million courtrooms but Hamas would use them as shithouses.

[RojoLeón]

Ain't the breaks and mortar mate. Gaza lacks a government with a sense of justice. They could have a million courtrooms but Hamas would use them as shithouses.

Only if Israel hadn't first used them for target practice

[Broad Spectrum]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28916761

[kavah]

Maybe it would be more appropriate in the art thread.

From the observer, a nice article about the British graphic designer Abram Games and his WWII era posters.

OUT OF THE DEPTHS TO PALESTINE

In 1945, Abram Games was profoundly affected by photographs from the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp. He had already been working in support of Jewish refugees, and was moved to make posters on behalf of Holocaust survivors, many of whom were in displaced people's camps in Europe. This image urges that they be allowed to make new lives in Palestine. The stripes of a concentration camp uniform are transformed into rays of light.



http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2014/aug/23/abram-games-poster-graphic-design-principles

[Mutton Geoff]

I am sorry nicky but please be honest here. Where has it been reported there they were random people? They were suspected of being spies, and as I said if they did not receive a fair trial, they must be condemned. And I said that. Just read my post again.

You are really stretching it here, these are executions, and if there was no trial they must be condemned. But really the point here is to not condemn it but to show how evil Hamas is. Thats what suits the narrative. Not that they are not evil, but calling them massacre is just ridiculous.

The only word that matters in your post is Suspected, ( not proven) therefore they were murdered and to me a mass execution and a massacre are one of the same, if you try to justify these murders by linking it to the Israeli action then you are no better than the murderers in Gaza in my opinion.

 If you condemn both and not try to score points on the amount of deaths you need to label it as a massacre it might help as well. The bombing of Gaza is evil, the killing without trial of what you like to think to suit your agenda as spies is evil.

[Mutton Geoff]

They do meet my criteria because they were killed indiscriminately. Did he pick what children to kill? No. He killed them indiscriminately.

It does matter, because if they were spies, and the law of the land proscribes death penalty for that, will you call that a massacre? Are people being executed in USA who are recevied death penalties being massacred?

Yes, I agree, you do need to take a step back and think about what you post. And also try and stop lecturing everyone what to do and what not to do, rather try and debate the point.

Its literally ridiculous to call executions as massacres. No one in the entire media is describing executions of spies as massacres, and for good reason.

See the bit in bold i guess you forgot that the ones in America have been tried in a court of law spent time on death row  while numerous appeals will have been lodged and the evidence looked at again and again, not killed on some kind of Chinese whisper system  within hours.

You lecture others but you do not debate you cannot debate,  no consensus can be reached with an entrenched mindset of only i am right!

[Libero]

Fanatical, sure. But a "Bedfellow of Sharon"?

"Hungarian" Mr. Lapid, was an excellent Israeli. One of the best I've had the pleasure to personally know. "Hungarian". LOL get that weak stuff outta here. You're out of your depth son. Waste of my time.

Sonny Nicky lad, your petty attempt at bullying is the only thing out of depth here.

Just because you met the guy, that qualifies him as what exactly? A legend? Hmm ok.  Also, he was a Hungarian no? or Do you want to revise this too?

You're on a public forum son, so don't embarrass yourself.

That said, I'm glad you've conceded that he is a fanatic though.  In this case, very much bordering on the extremist, such was his hatred and contempt for the clerics.

And yes, to answer your question, many of us view him as Sharon's bedfellow. The evidence? hmmm well, let's see: 

How about selling out his own so-called "liberal" party to serve under Sharon's RIGHT-WING coalition, in prominent roles?  (and people here give your namesake Clegg such a tough time because he linked up with a diet-coke Tory Government hehehehe)

The truth is, Lapid's Shinui party were / are an abomination created out of nothing but hatred for the Torah Jewish people, by taking an aggressive anti-clerical stance towards anyone who holds their faith dear.

Nothing pleases this Shinui lot: "join the military, trim the beards, take off the kippot, consume vast porn, stop being prudes and add profanity in between every word you utter... if you don't, and choose to become clerics instead, then you are parasites living off the state etc etc" ....

Can't reason with this lot... Yeah, sure, great man this Lapid was...

[SadRed]

See the bit in bold i guess you forgot that the ones in America have been tried in a court of law spent time on death row  while numerous appeals will have been lodged and the evidence looked at again and again, not killed on some kind of Chinese whisper system  within hours.
You lecture others but you do not debate you cannot debate,  no consensus can be reached with an entrenched mindset of only i am right!

Not that it shouldnt be condemned (if they didnt have a fair trail) but calling it a massacre is just silly.

 

If you condemn both and not try to score points on the amount of deaths you need to label it as a massacre it might help as well. The bombing of Gaza is evil, the killing without trial of what you like to think to suit your agenda as spies is evil.

Honestly mate just take 2 minutes to read what I have written.

I dont disagree with you here, and I said it must be condemned if they did not recieve fair trial. But its only what word to use, the word massacre is usually used when the killing is indiscriminate. Doesnt make killing innocents any better though.

When killing is 'indiscriminate'.  Like when Israel bombs the shit out civilian areas and babies die. Thats a massacre. To call execution of suspected spies, who may or may not have received a fair trial, during a state of war, as a massacre is an affront to people who have actually been massacred like the innocent kids playing on a beach.

Not that it shouldnt be condemned (if they didnt have a fair trail) but calling it a massacre is just silly.

I am sorry nicky but please be honest here. Where has it been reported there they were random people? They were suspected of being spies, and as I said if they did not receive a fair trial, they must be condemned. And I said that. Just read my post again.
You are really stretching it here, these are executions, and if there was no trial they must be condemned. But really the point here is to not condemn it but to show how evil Hamas is. Thats what suits the narrative. Not that they are not evil, but calling them massacre is just ridiculous.

Its a country in war. If they did not recieve a trial, thats condemnable and murder. But what do you expect from Hamas? Really? A fair trial, reading them their rights, and access to an attorney?