Topic: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)

[nyctex]

The stats you posted works on the assumption that every male between the age of 20-39 is possibly a terrorist. Now that is seriously shoddy work and simply put doesn't pass muster. You Americans have a great saying that I think is apt for this situation, 'Assuming makes an ass out of you' or something along those lines.

The 'biased' source in this respect of course are the U.N. Now to claim the UN is biased in this respect is extremely disingenuous. I didn't use the 82% or the 84% civilian mortality rates reported by either Palestinian agency if you read my post carefully. Now if you think the UN is biased against Israel, then you lot are no hopers.

Yup most terrorist are about 13.

[KUNGFUDANCER]

It would defeat the purpose of 'lying' about civilian casualties to the UN if they came around a couple of months later and joking laughed at how they had conned the UN and independent media.

Also please note that the UN's estimates of civilian deaths are a full 10% lower than those reported by the Palestinian authorities.

But that's what happened in 2008.

[jooneyisdagod]

Watch it again.  I'm searching for women or children.   The genocide you bang on about.


Looks like a targeted strike to me.     Hopefully they got the terrorists 

I already explained why you wouldn't find too many women or children out and about.

You are also guilty again of assuming that every Palestinian between the age of 20-40 that is a male is most likely a terrorist. That sort of assumption is simply not acceptable.

[jooneyisdagod]

Yup most terrorist are about 13.

They aren't. But that doesn't simply mean that anyone one that is Palestinian and between the age of 20-40 is likely to be a terrorist either. Big difference there.

But that's what happened in 2008.

Reported in exactly one newspaper. Guess which one ?

[KUNGFUDANCER]

Reported in exactly one newspaper. Guess which one ?

What do you mean?

Hamas interior minister admitted those numbers in an interview with london based arabic newspaper.

[nyctex]

You are also guilty again of assuming that every Palestinian between the age of 20-40 that is a male is most likely a terrorist. That sort of assumption is simply not acceptable.

I agree it's not fair I assume that.


Once the 20-40 year old Palestinian non-terrorist males stop the 20-40 year old Palestinian terrorist males we might get somewhere towards peace

[jooneyisdagod]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/08/-sp-gaza-israeli-strikes-unrwa-schools


Read above a summary of the various attacks on UN run schools turned shelters for those displaced in the war.


http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/official-statements/unrwa-condemns-israeli-strike-next-unrwa-school-killing-civilians


The above link takes you to the UNRWA website and is the official statement that states that the coordinates of the school was transmitted to the IDF 33 times.


The evidence is staring you right in the face if you choose to look at it.

[jooneyisdagod]

What do you mean?

Hamas interior minister admitted those numbers in an interview with london based arabic newspaper.

As far as I can see, what you are referring to which was 600-700 deaths of Hamas fighters rather than the 300 as was originally claimed by the Hamas was reported only by Hareetz.

[jooneyisdagod]

I agree it's not fair I assume that.


Once the 20-40 year old Palestinian non-terrorist males stop the 20-40 year old Palestinian terrorist males we might get somewhere towards peace

Just wow. Would love to stay and chat but I got things to do.

[nyctex]

As far as I can see, what you are referring to which was 600-700 deaths of Hamas fighters rather than the 300 as was originally claimed by the Hamas was reported only by Hareetz.

more dead Hamas?   YEEEESSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

[nyctex]

Just wow. Would love to stay and chat but I got things to do.

cheers

[RojoLeón]

You're pretty persistent with the trolling recently, nyctex. Got a lot of time on your hands

Did you get sacked for insider trading or something 

[Yorkykopite]

Edit: Its unfortunate if debate in this thread is lowered to this level by constant bleating about stopping the rockets and the tunnels without an study into the root causes of the conflict. That would really help the cause of the thread and the understanding of many people around the world.

But you say this as if everyone agrees on the causes. They don't. To talk about original causes simply takes the debate to another level of abstraction.

[The Gulleysucker]

As far as I can see, what you are referring to which was 600-700 deaths of Hamas fighters rather than the 300 as was originally claimed by the Hamas was reported only by Hareetz.

January 19th 2009 Al Arabiya  ... http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/01/19/64513.html


Hamas's armed wing said on Monday it lost only 48 fighters during Israel's 22-day operation in Gaza and vowed to fight on unless the Jewish state withdrew its forces from the Palestinian enclave.

"We announce to our people the martyrdom of 48 Qassam fighters," Abu Obeida, spokesman for the Ezzedine Al-Qassam Brigades, said in a televised press conference.

Israel reported killing more than 500 Hamas members during Operation Cast Lead which it launched on Gaza on December 27 and ended on Sunday with a ceasefire.

Gaza medics said a total of more than 1,300 Palestinians have died.

Abu Obeida also claimed that Israel lost "at least 80 soldiers" in the fighting. The Jewish state listed 10 soldiers killed.
......


This was widely reported elsewhere at the time too, I think there was even a televised interview by him when he makes the claim.



Mar 26 2009 Jerulasem Post publishes IDF numbers ... http://www.webcitation.org/5niwZTV9K

Of the 1,166 names of Palestinian dead gathered by the IDF's Research Department, 709 have been identified as "Hamas terror operatives," the IDF said, adding that the terrorists hailed from a variety of organizations.

According to the IDF, 162 additional names of men killed during the operation "have not been yet attributed to any organization."

A total of 295 Palestinian non-combatants died during the operation - 89 of them under the age of 16, and 49 of them women, the army added.
.....



1st November 2010 http://www.khaleejtimes.com/displayarticle.asp?xfile=data/middleeast/2010/November/middleeast_November13.xml&section=middleeast&col=

AFP - A senior Hamas official admitted on Monday that up to 300 fighters were killed in the 2008-2009 Gaza war after the Islamist group initially put the toll at 48.

Hamas interior minister Fathi Hammad told the London-based Arabic newspaper Al-Hayat that between 200 and 300 Hamas fighters were killed during the 22-day onslaught in addition to hundreds of civilians.

"They say the people suffered from this war, but is Hamas not part of the people? On the first day of the war Israel targeted police stations and 250 martyrs were killed, from Hamas and other factions," he told the paper.

"In addition to them, between 200 and 300 fighters from the Al-Qassam Brigades (Hamas's armed wing) and another 150 security forces were martyred."

His numbers roughly match the 709 "terror operatives" the Israeli military said it had killed during the fighting, which included members of the Hamas-run police force that has patrolled Gaza since the group seized power in 2007.

The military has said the overall Palestinian death toll was 1,166.

Israeli and Palestinian human rights groups have said that some 1,400 Palestinians, mostly civilians, were killed in the fighting. Thirteen Israelis were killed, including 10 soldiers.

The day after the war ended with separately-declared ceasefires, a spokesman for the Al-Qassam Brigades said they had lost just 48 fighters while Israel had lost "at least 80 soldiers."




Then on 9th November 2010 Haaretz ...http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/hamas-admits-600-700-of-its-men-were-killed-in-cast-lead-1.323776

Hamas admitted last week that between 600 and 700 of its militants were killed during Operation Cast Lead – a figure consistent with that reported by the Israel Defense Forces.

The figure is several times higher than the previous number of fatalities that Hamas claimed it sustained during the operation.

Hamas’ military wing had previously claimed that only 49 of its militants were killed during the three-week operation that the IDF launched in December 2008. Israel had put the figure at 709.

In an interview with the London-based Al-Hayat daily last Monday, however, Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hamad detailed the heavy price his group had paid during the war.

"They say that it was the people who were harmed in the last war," said Hamad. "Are we not part of the people nation? On the first day of the war, Israel attacked the police command and killed 250 martyrs, from Hamas and other factions."

"This was in addition to the 200-300 members of the Al-Qassam Brigade [Hamas' military wing] and 150 security personnel," Hamad added. "The rest of the fatalities were from among the civilian population."




Wiki on the casualties of Operation Cast Lead ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_War

And since war crimes are getting mentioned, I'll throw in this one too...http://www.hrw.org/news/2009/08/06/gazaisrael-hamas-rocket-attacks-civilians-unlawful

It's all pretty depressing stuff.

[Mutton Geoff]

I am no expert so from a very simplistic look on this,

 you have a hawkish leader in power in Israel he always has been keener on War than Jaw in my opinion, but they are not the villain and neither are Hamas, we have a political situation created partly by the anger towards the Israelis from their near neighbours.

Israel is never going to make friends by making it so hard for people in the Gaza strip to be able to go about their normal life without any dominant hindrance.

Of course there is never an excuse in this technological era for any power to bomb schools and hospitals, anyone trying to defend these actions is wrong, there are also no excuses for the Hamas actions and these tit for tat criminal actions leaves neither of them with any justification or moral high ground at all and anyone supporting either of these actions needs to think am i any better than the people bombing or firing the rockets?

A couple of final points (and this is just my opinion) given the power of the New York Jewish Lobby in US Politics, it often leaves the US policy in this area impotent if you compare it with US actions in other areas in the Middle East.  i am also sceptical about any quotes in the NY Times with this New York Lobby being a powerful group in the city and the east coast of the U.S.

In the end i do not support Israel, i do not support Hamas, i support Peace and the need for these atrocities to be stopped immediately !

[Yorkykopite]

The New York Times is one of the finest newspapers in the world Geoff. I don't think the Jews in America determine what its reporters write or what its editors publish.

[SadRed]

The evidence is staring you right in the face if you choose to look at it.

It doesnt matter mate. Just doesnt. People who dont want to look at it wont look at it. Entire neighbourhoods have been flattened but they were all terrorists.  Even if Israel drops a nuclear bomb on Gaza people will be happy to defend them. So there is just no point. Just exposes people thats all.

Seems to be a case of mass cultural psychopathy. One dead Israeli will cause them more pain than hundereds of dead children. Disgraceful.

[youll never walk alone it]

So people want to kill hamas, ok, so how many dead  none hamas  is it ok to kill for say 1  hamas person?

[SadRed]

So people want to kill hamas, ok, so how many dead  none hamas  is it ok to kill for say 1  hamas person?

It doesnt matter how many. Read the thread some people have made it clear. They are happy to kill as many as needed.

And then ofcourse for the number of dead too we are supposed to not believe UN, UNHRC, UNRWA, Amnesty and HRW but trust the IDF that have been accused of war crimes. We are supposed to believe people who are sitting in the F-16s or Tanks pressing buttons to completely flatten entire neighbourhoods from the air, and not the doctors and health officials who are on the ground risking their lives to help people. We are not even supposed to believe what we see with our own eyes.

We are supposed to trust the same Israeli government who knew the three Israeli teens were dead (IN WEST BANK NOT GAZA), yet cynically expolited their death and started #bringbackourboys campaign to whip up support for the impending war.

In any case, even 13 year olds are considered terrorists, soon that may be 8. Or 6. They are all future terrorists.

[SadRed]

And now Israeli government are showing their true colours. They are being accused of not being serious in negotiations.

From Israels perspective, in the current situation, the best thing for Israel is to NOT negotiate. These are the kind of sick sick games they have been playing over the years. If they do not reach an agreement with Hamas now, they dont care. Negotiating now will mean they will need to somehow resolve the situation of the illegal siege which is Hamas core demand. They dont want to do that, so what are they doing? They pretend to negotiate. Like they did after Oslo Accords.

When the 72 hour ceasefire started, they came 1.5 days late for negotiations. Shows how serious they are to have lasting peace. They have presented no clear demands, and are just in Cairo to pretend to negotiate. Hamas has threatened to start firing again, which will make them look like the bad guys, and Israel will say it will not neogitate under fire.

That will keep the status quo, Palestinians will suffer another 5 years while Hamas builds up more capabilities, and then there will be another war.

[Mutton Geoff]

The New York Times is one of the finest newspapers in the world Geoff. I don't think the Jews in America determine what its reporters write or what its editors publish.

then i stand corrected however i do think the Jewish Lobby is a powerhouse in US Politics, so i was perhaps going 2+2 =22

[SadRed]

Can you please stop saying Israelis all the time? You're like that bloke who claimed that according to polls, 96% of Israelis support murdering children.

I meant the Israeli government.  Its only like when they say Palestinians are negotiating the Israelis. I obviously dont mean everyone in Israel.

[KUNGFUDANCER]

And now Israeli government are showing their true colours. They are being accused of not being serious in negotiations.

From Israels perspective, in the current situation, the best thing for Israel is to NOT negotiate. These are the kind of sick sick games they have been playing over the years. If they do not reach an agreement with Hamas now, they dont care. Negotiating now will mean they will need to somehow resolve the situation of the illegal siege which is Hamas core demand. They dont want to do that, so what are they doing? They pretend to negotiate. Like they did after Oslo Accords.

When the 72 hour ceasefire started, they came 1.5 days late for negotiations. Shows how serious they are to have lasting peace. They have presented no clear demands, and are just in Cairo to pretend to negotiate. Hamas has threatened to start firing again, which will make them look like the bad guys, and Israel will say it will not neogitate under fire.

That will keep the status quo, Palestinians will suffer another 5 years while Hamas builds up more capabilities, and then there will be another war.

So Hamas breaks ceasefire ten times firing rockets into Israel and you still want to blame Israel for not being serious in negotiation?

[Yorkykopite]

then i stand corrected however i do think the Jewish Lobby is a powerhouse in US Politics, so i was perhaps going 2+2 =22

There are a lot of powerful political lobbies in America. The Jewish lobby is one of them. On the other hand the Jewish vote is utterly predictable. First of all Jews always vote. Secondly they always vote Democratic. In fact they are the most reliable Democratic voters in America.

To be a real "powerhouse" they ought to haggle a bit more, I think. Play hard to get, like.   

[SadRed]

So Hamas breaks ceasefire ten times firing rockets into Israel and you still want to blame Israel for not being serious in negotiation?

1. No rockets were fired during the agreed 72- hour ceasefire.
2. If Israeli negotiators arrive 1.5 days after the agreed ceasefire, does that strike you as being serious?

[TravisBickle]

then i stand corrected however i do think the Jewish Lobby is a powerhouse in US Politics, so i was perhaps going 2+2 =22

 I'd be careful not to confuse 'Jewish' with 'Zionist'. Crucial difference. Have a read about AIPAC.

[KUNGFUDANCER]

1. No rockets were fired during the agreed 72- hour ceasefire.
2. If Israeli negotiators arrive 1.5 days after the agreed ceasefire, does that strike you as being serious?

Hamas broke the ceasefire 5 hours before it was supposed to end. Israel was ready to extend the ceasefire.
Israeli negotiators were going back and forth from Cairo, it wasn't clear Hamas would abide by the ceasefire since they have been breaking every one before. 

[Inpeace]

I think others have said that we expect more from Israel than we do Palestine

When they don't that does not mean we are anti semantic

[SadRed]

In the end i do not support Israel, i do not support Hamas, i support Peace and the need for these atrocities to be stopped immediately !

Agreed - but just like war, peace needs to equal. One cannot expect Palestinians to be happy whilst being blockaded by every side. Peace will only come when Israel allows establishment of a Palestinian state on the 1967 borders - the position that is supported by everyone internationally. Israel talks of peace on one side whilst continuing to build settlements on the other while world is quiet. How can people expect Palestinians to just remain quiet?

The Zionist sentiment is so strong in the US, not for the Jewish vote, but evangelical christians who firmly support Israel, based on Bible and Biblical prophecies. The media is so ridiculously biased, that Palestinian voice is rarely heard, and racial and religious prejudices are repeatedly re-inforced. As so clearly demonstrated in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_m98GAdqKM

According to mainstream media Israel can never do any wrong, and anything will justified by malicious twisting of facts. Again all this is because this is what the viewers want to see.

[SadRed]

Hamas broke the ceasefire 5 hours before it was supposed to end. Israel was ready to extend the ceasefire.
Israeli negotiators were going back and forth from Cairo, it wasn't clear Hamas would abide by the ceasefire since they have been breaking every one before. 

The ones before were unilateral. You know that and has been talked about 100s of time. 72 hour ceasefire was observed by both parties, as reported by everyone.

Just explain to me - if Israel is serious - and there are 3 days to sort out an agreement - would you arrive 1.5 days late? Does that smack of seriousness?

Israel gains to lose more in the negotiations, the primary demand is lifting of illegal siege on Gaza. This needs to be done regardless of negotiations because it is illegal. Israel is committing a crime according to international law. Hamas' main demand is that this illegal seige be lifted.

Israel doesnt want to do this, hence the talks will collpase again. And yet you will blame Hamas. The illegality of Israel's position cannot be justified.

[Yorkykopite]

I think others have said that we expect more from Israel than we do Palestine

When they don't that does not mean we are anti semantic

Watch your language.

I expect the same from both sides. Anything else is giving permission to thugs.

[SadRed]

Right or wrong, I don't think they are under any legal obligation to negotiate.

Does Israel care what is illegal or legal? Its settlements are illegal, seige of Gaza is illegal. That must end.

[Inpeace]

Watch your language.

I expect the same from both sides. Anything else is giving permission to thugs.

Really, if a load of thugs are throwing stones at police and they start shooting bullets I know who's side I am on

[KUNGFUDANCER]

The ones before were unilateral. You know that and has been talked about 100s of time. 72 hour ceasefire was observed by both parties, as reported by everyone.

Just explain to me - if Israel is serious - and there are 3 days to sort out an agreement - would you arrive 1.5 days late? Does that smack of seriousness?

Israel gains to lose more in the negotiations, the primary demand is lifting of illegal siege on Gaza. This needs to be done regardless of negotiations because it is illegal. Israel is committing a crime according to international law. Hamas' main demand is that this illegal seige be lifted.

Israel doesnt want to do this, hence the talks will collpase again. And yet you will blame Hamas. The illegality of Israel's position cannot be justified.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/08/world/middleeast/rockets-break-gaza-cease-fire.html Hamas breaking the 72hr ceasefire.

The blockade will be lifted as soon as Hamas is disarmed and pledges peace. Why do you have any problem with that? Egypt won't lift the blockade either until Hamas is disarmed.

[Yorkykopite]

Really, if a load of thugs are throwing stones at police and they start shooting bullets I know who's side I am on

Me too.

But if the thugs start firing rockets at the police it becomes a little more complicated.

[CornerFlag]

Does Israel care what is illegal or legal?

To an end. I'd argue Israel will satisfy its own view of justice before placing real value on international legalities though.

Its settlements are illegal, siege of Gaza is illegal. That must end.

True for the first part, true for the second part.  However while there's rockets coming one way then I believe those in power in Israel will keep on doing what they're doing now whether they're flicking the V's at various conventions or not.  I would personally say I'm more on the side of the Gazans than the Israelis (in terms of sympathy and supporting those who are at greater risk of losses, but that's not to say an Israeli death is more or less than a Palestinian one) but both sides are being tarnished because of their pricks in power.  Hamas militants MUST STOP firing rockets into Israel, Israel MUST NOT show disproportionate retaliation and pick their targets far far better than they have done.  The percentage of civilian deaths is much too great for a country proud of its military strength.

EDIT: clarifying a point.

[Kochevnik]

According to mainstream media Israel can never do any wrong, and anything will justified by malicious twisting of facts. Again all this is because this is what the viewers want to see.

I don't know what channels you're watching or which newspapers you're reading but pretty much all of the American media I've ever seen (well, maybe not Fox News but no one expects them to actually report the news) is pretty consistent in calling Israel out on the bombings, etc.  Pretty much the same in the UK I think as well; the BBC to take one example has never shied away from showing dead Palestinians or covering the results of the bombings.

[Euskadi]

Really, if a load of thugs are throwing stones at police and they start shooting bullets I know who's side I am on

If you look at it like that from such a myopic stand point then yes I agree with, it's not that simple though is it.

[Euskadi]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/08/world/middleeast/rockets-break-gaza-cease-fire.html Hamas breaking the 72hr ceasefire.

The blockade will be lifted as soon as Hamas is disarmed and pledges peace. Why do you have any problem with that? Egypt won't lift the blockade either until Hamas is disarmed.

So then like in the West Bank Israel can go on stealing more land without facing the faintest of opposition? By all means they shouldn't use their arms in the way that they do but you are now denying them to hold arms. May I remind you that Hamas were democratically elected in probably the first unadulterated democratic election, yet the current Israeli government has refused time and time again to even engage in negotiations with Hamas (the Hamas that was funded,armed and supported by Israel against the former PLO.)

[KUNGFUDANCER]

So then like in the West Bank Israel can go on stealing more land without facing the faintest of opposition? By all means they shouldn't use their arms in the way that they do but you are now denying them to hold arms. May I remind you that Hamas were democratically elected in probably the first unadulterated democratic election, yet the current Israeli government has refused time and time again to even engage in negotiations with Hamas (the Hamas that was funded,armed and supported by Israel against the former PLO.)

Why do you think Egypt is blockading Gaza? Do they want the land too? Hamas members won the election, but after that you know what they did right? Killed Fatah members and took complete control of Gaza. I'm really amazed at some of you defending terrorists like Hamas.