Author Topic: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)  (Read 107129 times)

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1920 on: August 16, 2014, 09:23:24 pm »
Wow the BBC have actually run a Gaza appeal  :o

As they should !
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Offline mactifosi

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1921 on: August 17, 2014, 11:38:23 am »
Not entirely. Russian immigrants were and still are considered second class citizens. Especially those who have trouble proving their Judaism, or those with a Jewish father, which according to the Rabbinate makes them non Jews. Some Russian soldiers who die in conflicts aren't allowed to be buried next to the boys they've fought with.

Not even mentioning how Sephardic Jews or Ethiopians are treated.

This is what really disturbs me. I see a lot of racism and religious hatred driving the conflict from the Israeli side.
I've had people tell me they hope my daughter and wife get raped by Muslims because I question the use of inaccurate tank rounds in civilian areas.
What is happening and wrong with these people?
This is not what Israel is supposed to be.

I have read statements from Rabbi's of the post-democracy movement and their desire to seize control of the country and enforce religious law.
It would not only be a disaster for the Palestinians (already is), it would be a disaster for Israel.
Normally we could discard such statements but they really do seem to be gaining in strength.


I really do think the only solution is for a foreign coalition force to go in and enforce a solution.
After reading today that Israel has point blank refused to even discuss lifting the blockade.
Apparently they might agree to discuss it at some point in the future - the same empty promise they gave last time and then added more pre-conditions such as the demand for a share of the oil & gas reserves.

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Offline Broad Spectrum

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1923 on: August 19, 2014, 03:09:57 pm »
Israel launches fresh air strikes in Gaza in response to rocket fire.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/19/israel-launches-air-strikes-gaza-ceasefire?CMP=twt_gu

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1924 on: August 19, 2014, 04:40:20 pm »
Israel launches fresh air strikes in Gaza in response to rocket fire.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/19/israel-launches-air-strikes-gaza-ceasefire?CMP=twt_gu

and so this cycle of death and destruction continues !
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Offline Kochevnik

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1925 on: August 19, 2014, 05:22:46 pm »
and so this cycle of death and destruction continues !

You say that as if there were ever a chance of anything else happening.  History has shown over and over that there are 2 ways to end a blood feud:

1. One side murders everyone on the other side
2. One side agrees to turn the other cheek and be the wronged party and not seek revenge.

It's horrific to contemplate option 1, and option 2 is not going to happen in the foreseeable future.  Probably at least 1-2 more generations away, and that's being optimistic.

I think we will have to pretty much all accept that the Palestinian-Israel cycle of violence is going to be a fact of life and flare up on a regular basis for our lifetimes.  Sad but true.
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1926 on: August 19, 2014, 07:47:54 pm »
You say that as if there were ever a chance of anything else happening.  History has shown over and over that there are 2 ways to end a blood feud:

1. One side murders everyone on the other side
2. One side agrees to turn the other cheek and be the wronged party and not seek revenge.

It's horrific to contemplate option 1, and option 2 is not going to happen in the foreseeable future.  Probably at least 1-2 more generations away, and that's being optimistic.

I think we will have to pretty much all accept that the Palestinian-Israel cycle of violence is going to be a fact of life and flare up on a regular basis for our lifetimes.  Sad but true.

well recent history would tell you that peace in Ulster was unthinkable it happened , that peace in the former Yugoslavia could not happen it did. jaw jaw is always the final outcome so why would i not hope that peace could happen in Gaza?
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Offline RedGuy

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1927 on: August 19, 2014, 09:52:05 pm »
Lot's of alarms now, typing this from a bomb shelter. Fun.

Offline Broad Spectrum

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1928 on: August 19, 2014, 10:01:15 pm »
Lot's of alarms now, typing this from a bomb shelter. Fun.

At least you're safe and sound in a bomb shelter. Imagine you had no-where to escape from potential rocket attacks...

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1929 on: August 19, 2014, 10:03:53 pm »
At least you're safe and sound in a bomb shelter. Imagine you had no-where to escape from potential rocket attacks...
Yay.

Offline Broad Spectrum

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1930 on: August 19, 2014, 10:13:17 pm »
Yay.

Count yourself lucky that you're hiding from rogue rocket attacks and not from one of the most advanced air forces in the world, can't imagine that would be much fun...

Offline scared_person

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1931 on: August 19, 2014, 10:16:29 pm »
Count yourself lucky that you're hiding from rogue rocket attacks and not from one of the most advanced air forces in the world, can't imagine that would be much fun...
Fucking hell. I think what the Israeli government is doing is awful, but are you really picking on a civilian hiding in a bomb shelter?

Fuck off you heartless c*nt.

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1932 on: August 19, 2014, 10:18:04 pm »
Count yourself lucky that you're hiding from rogue rocket attacks and not from one of the most advanced air forces in the world, can't imagine that would be much fun...

You'd think he'd have the decency to actually be hit by a rocket rather than taking shelter, wouldn't you?

Offline RedGuy

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1933 on: August 19, 2014, 10:21:21 pm »
Count yourself lucky that you're hiding from rogue rocket attacks and not from one of the most advanced air forces in the world, can't imagine that would be much fun...
Believe me, running to the bomb shelter even once a day isn't fun either, let alone every few hours like civilians in the south.

Offline Broad Spectrum

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1934 on: August 19, 2014, 10:21:54 pm »
You'd think he'd have the decency to actually be hit by a rocket rather than taking shelter, wouldn't you?

Obviously not, I think Hamas breaking the cease fire by firing rockets is totally unnecessary.

But it's hardly the time to be sarcastic considering the loss of life no doubt being suffered by other civilians who are not fortunate enough to have access to either alarms or bomb shelters.

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1935 on: August 19, 2014, 10:40:59 pm »
Fucking hell. I think what the Israeli government is doing is awful, but are you really picking on a civilian hiding in a bomb shelter?

Fuck off you heartless c*nt.
What is wrong with you.

Oh, calm down. I agree the classy thing to do with a fellow Rawkite would be to express sympathy and move on, but this is still the Palestine thread, it's not supposed to be all sunshine and blowjobs.

Offline scared_person

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1936 on: August 19, 2014, 10:46:44 pm »
Oh, calm down. I agree the classy thing to do with a fellow Rawkite would be to express sympathy and move on, but this is still the Palestine thread, it's not supposed to be all sunshine and blowjobs.

Nah I'm not having that. Having a go at a lad hiding in a bomb shelter is going miles too far for me.

Whatever your view on the conflict, and as I said i'm appalled at the war crimes the Israeli military commit, no one should glory in attacks on civilians on either side. It's horrible.

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1937 on: August 19, 2014, 10:47:36 pm »
Count yourself lucky that you're hiding from rogue rocket attacks and not from one of the most advanced air forces in the world, can't imagine that would be much fun...
What a condescending piece of human shit you are

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1938 on: August 19, 2014, 10:52:20 pm »
Nah I'm not having that. Having a go at a lad hiding in a bomb shelter is going miles too far for me.

"Could be worse" is not having a go. Having a go is "I hope you get bombed".

Offline Euskadi

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1939 on: August 19, 2014, 10:52:31 pm »
Nah I'm not having that. Having a go at a lad hiding in a bomb shelter is going miles too far for me.

Whatever your view on the conflict, and as I said i'm appalled at the war crimes the Israeli military commit, no one should glory in attacks on civilians on either side. It's horrible.

Hang on, where was he having a go at him for it, now I agree it was distasteful but people going on at him as if he wished the other poster was dead. I know this thread gets a little heated at times but people don't get half sensitive.
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Offline scared_person

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1940 on: August 19, 2014, 10:55:23 pm »
"Could be worse" is not having a go. Having a go is "I hope you get bombed".
Hang on, where was he having a go at him for it, now I agree it was distasteful but people going on at him as if he wished the other poster was dead. I know this thread gets a little heated at times but people don't get half sensitive.

Its in massively poor taste for me.

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1941 on: August 19, 2014, 10:58:12 pm »
It's in massively poor taste for me.

Much better.

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1942 on: August 20, 2014, 12:07:00 am »
Count yourself lucky that you're hiding from rogue rocket attacks and not from one of the most advanced air forces in the world, can't imagine that would be much fun...

What a wankish comment. How many times have you had to run for the bomb shelter to avoid being hit by incoming fire?
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Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1943 on: August 20, 2014, 02:22:20 am »
This is the same thread where people got away with shit like "Oh it's great that the Israeli solider got CAPTURED", so in comparison maybe that's not that bad of a comment.
Fixed that for you ;)
So who said it's great that a Israeli Soldier got captured ?
btw
What are your thoughts on the IDF protocol which dealt with the incident ? ( I think its named after Hannibal ) 
Its one that would rather see him dead at any cost, than see him as a captured PoW.     

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1944 on: August 20, 2014, 03:15:13 am »
Much better.

Nah, his original description - "heartless c**t" - definitely hit the spot.

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1945 on: August 20, 2014, 10:15:05 am »
Nah, his original description - "heartless c**t" - definitely hit the spot.


For you. Which is understandable.

Offline scared_person

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1946 on: August 20, 2014, 10:50:27 am »
Staying out of this one from now on.

Who would have thought a thread about the conflict in Palestine would be an intractible mess with both sides flinging shit at each other to no great end?

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1947 on: August 20, 2014, 10:53:03 am »
Staying out of this one from now on.

Who would have thought a thread about the conflict in Palestine would be an intractible mess with both sides flinging shit at each other to no great end?

I know. All we need now is for one side of the thread to be massively overfunded by the US.

Offline HarryLabrador

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1948 on: August 20, 2014, 12:02:43 pm »
I know. All we need now is for one side of the thread to be massively overfunded by the US.
All we need are more people like Daniel Barenboim.

Daniel Barenboim: My orchestra is a political laboratory
As Daniel Barenboim brings his West-Eastern Divan Orchestra to the Proms, he talks to Ivan Hewett about the problems of the Middle East


By Ivan Hewett
9:30AM BST 20 Aug 2014

The Middle East is in flames, and untold thousands have been killed or maimed or displaced. And at its epicentre, the intractable conflict between Israel and the Palestinians goes on. Until the recent ceasefire they were locked in a situation of undeclared war which has left more than 2,000 dead.

In the midst of all this, to have something appear at the Proms that’s been dubbed “An Orchestra for Peace” seems almost laughably naive. But Daniel Barenboim, who co-founded the orchestra in question, the West-Eastern Divan orchestra, denies that was ever the intention.

“It’s not an orchestra for peace in that region, because peace requires that the needs of both sides for justice and security are met. Playing Mozart and Wagner cannot give this.”

So what exactly is the point of this orchestra, which brings musicians from Israel together with musicians from Palestine, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, and the other Arab countries that many Israelis hate and fear?

 “It sprang out of my belief that there can never be a military solution to this conflict,” says Barenboim. We’re meeting at the Lucerne Concert Hall, where the Divan orchestra is about to give two concerts as part of the Lucerne Summer Festival. Barenboim flew here the day before with the orchestra from Buenos Aires, where they now have their own summer festival, and he’s just emerged from a rehearsal. He seems, unsurprisingly, a little frayed around the edges.

Yet the minute this subject is raised he’s as focused as a laser beam. “This conflict is not like those normal ones between two nations that argue about borders or water or petrol, which they would eventually resolve militarily or politically,” he continues. “Here we have two nations who are absolutely convinced they have equal claims to live on the same little patch of earth, preferably without the other. There are many aspects of this conflict that are asymmetrical, not least the fact that Israel has been an occupying power for 47 years. But in this respect, they are exactly symmetrical, and each side needs to accept the impossibility of their dream.”

In the midst of all this, the Divan offers a little ray of hope. “This orchestra is like a laboratory, an experiment in two peoples living together in proximity. They are here to do things: make music and learn about the other. This can happen because the orchestra provides something that does not exist on the ground, and that is equality. When we went up on the stage last night to play Act 2 of Wagner’s Tristan, we were all equal. This is the first condition for dialogue.”

Barenboim can now look back on 15 years of achievement with the Divan orchestra, which he co-founded with the Palestinian literary critic Edward Said. What pleases him most?

“The incredible rise in playing standards. You have to remember when we started, 60 per cent of the members had never played in an orchestra, and many of them had never actually seen an orchestra live. And only eight years later we played one of the hardest pieces in the repertoire, Schoenberg’s Orchestral Variations, at the Salzburg Festival. This I would never have believed.”

Barenboim is full of the phrase for the government of Andalusia, which provides scholarships for young players from the Divan. “This is what makes us different to other youth orchestras, which only meet in the summer and then disperse,” he says. “A core of players from the Divan continue the work we do in the summer, by coming to Berlin to learn from my players in the Staatskapelle orchestra in Berlin. They return to the Divan the following summer and help the others. It creates a rising spiral of development.”

It’s only when we turn to the situation in the wider world that Barenboim’s amazing resilience flags for a moment. “It is so depressing that each side only thinks about winning this present conflict,” he says. “No one is thinking about tomorrow, and the day after tomorrow.”

But this only makes him more determined than ever to win the next battle for the orchestra. “I think the orchestra will reach its fullest flowering on the human level only when it can play in all the countries that are represented in the orchestra. In Lebanon this is now out of the question, and in Syria, and Egypt, and Palestine. And let’s not even mention Iran, where four of our players come from. This really disturbs me, and I will never give up on my efforts to make this happen.”

He admits this is going to be an uphill struggle. “Many people absolutely hate us, in the various countries where our players come from. They think we are traitors to our own people,” says Barenboim drily. “But we have just as many passionate supporters in those countries, so I think we must be doing something right.”

Daniel Barenboim and the West-Eastern Divan Orchestra appear in the BBC Prom on Aug 20 at the Royal Albert Hall
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/proms/11043891/Daniel-Barenboim-My-orchestra-is-a-political-laboratory.html

Please let's all watch this tonight!
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Offline Broad Spectrum

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1949 on: August 20, 2014, 02:00:22 pm »
Fixed that for you ;)
So who said it's great that a Israeli Soldier got captured ?
btw
What are your thoughts on the IDF protocol which dealt with the incident ? ( I think its named after Hannibal
Its one that would rather see him dead at any cost, than see him as a captured PoW.   

Brilliant, informative piece here...

You might not have heard of the ‘Hannibal Protocol’, but it's behind one of Israel's worst atrocities yet

What's more, the Israeli colonel behind it all seems to think it was divine.


While Israel and Hamas are still looking for ways to end their Gaza war, the UN Human Rights Council has appointed a three-member panel to investigate allegations that humanitarian law was violated in the Gaza Strip during the fighting, in a manner that could amount to war crimes.

Close to 2,000 Palestinians have so far been killed in Gaza, a majority of them civilians, while the Israelis have lost 64 soldiers and three civilians. On past precedent, Israel is highly unlikely to co-operate with any UN investigation.

That was Israel’s position with the Goldstone inquiry into Operation Cast Lead in 2008-9, in which 1,400 Palestinians were killed. What the Israelis will do is to conduct their own investigations, insisting that as Israel investigates itself, there is no need for an external body to do the same.

But there are serious deficiencies in the Israeli self-investigation practice, as the tendency there is not to take disciplinary or criminal actions against those involved in wrongdoings, and the inquiries are not transparent.

The UN team, no doubt, will look into IDF attacks on schools and hospitals during the Gaza war, but I strongly believe that their first priority, and top on their list of incidents-to-be-investigated should be the events that took place in Rafah in the southern Gaza Strip on Friday, August 1. There are three words that define this day: "The Hannibal Protocol".

On August 1, a humanitarian truce was due to start at 8am. Israeli forces, however, continued to search for Hamas tunnels. On one occasion infantry troops of the Givati brigade approached a house from where they were fired at. A battle ensued. Two Israeli troops were killed and a third, Lt Hadar Goldin, could not be seen. It was assumed that he was abducted by Hamas militants.

In the Israeli psyche, since their Lebanon wars, an abducted soldier is a nightmare. The captors often manage to use the soldier as a bargaining chip to squeeze major concessions from Israel, such as the release of Palestinian prisoners from Israeli jails.

As a result, the Israeli army came up with its “Hannibal Protocol”. Concocted during Israel's Lebanon offensive in the 80s, it allows the IDF to use massive firepower to prevent the kidnapping of any soldier in the minutes and hours after they're seized.

This procedure was fine for Lebanon, as the areas where it was used were open lands and sparsely populated. But on August 1, when the Hannibal Protocol was used in an attempt to thwart the capture of Lt Goldin, the area was Rafah — one of the most densely populated areas on earth. The results were devastating.

The Israeli forces didn't give the Palestinians of Rafah any warning, but embarked on the most aggressive bombing campaign of Operation Protective Edge. Airplanes struck Rafah 40 times, dropping massive bombs on its civilian neighbourhoods, and heavy artillery pumped more than 1,000 shells into the area. Tanks also invaded, firing in all directions, and heavy bulldozers moved in to flatten scores of houses on the heads of people who were still inside.

Palestinians who did manage to jump into cars to escape the inferno were shot at, and cars carrying injured civilians trying to approach the Rafah hospital were also attacked. The blitz lasted three hours and killed more than 150 Palestinians. It also injured hundreds of others, having buried them under the rubble.

The colonel who orchestrated the assault on Rafah was Ofer Winter, the commander of the Givati Brigade. A religious settler, on the eve of the Gaza war he dispatched a letter to his troops, laden with biblical references, which perhaps explains the ferocity with which they attacked Rafah.

What Colonel Winter called on his troops to do was, effectively, to conduct a religious war on Gaza. Here are some quotes from his letter:

"History has chosen us to be the sharp edge of the bayonet of fighting the terrorist enemy from Gaza which curses, defames and abuses the God of Israel’s battles … We will… wipe out the enemy… Using all means at our disposal and with all required force… I turn my eyes to the sky and call with you ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.’ God, the Lord of Israel, make our path successful, as we are about to fight for Your People, Israel, against an enemy who defames your name."

Colonel Winter managed to wipe out many Palestinians — but alas, they were non-combatant civilians. Therefore his actions, as well as those working with him, must be thoroughly investigated by the UN to establish whether it amounted to war crimes. We cannot allow The Hannibal Protocol to be used in such a way again.

Offline BUSHMILLS

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1950 on: August 21, 2014, 08:21:00 pm »
For you. Which is understandable.

Devastating comeback there - don't think I'll recover from it.

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1951 on: August 22, 2014, 11:00:56 am »
Quote


"History has chosen us to be the sharp edge of the bayonet of fighting the terrorist enemy from Gaza which curses, defames and abuses the God of Israel’s battles … We will… wipe out the enemy… Using all means at our disposal and with all required force… I turn my eyes to the sky and call with you ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.’ God, the Lord of Israel, make our path successful, as we are about to fight for Your People, Israel, against an enemy who defames your name."


Surprised Murdoch and the Barclay Bros haven't pinched this bit and attributed it to ISIS.


The world is in a mess, and it suits some folks that it stays this way.




Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1952 on: August 22, 2014, 11:50:09 am »
Surprised Murdoch and the Barclay Bros haven't pinched this bit and attributed it to ISIS.


The world is in a mess, and it suits some folks that it stays this way.





 Arms dealers  gain far more from conflicts than any media mogul so as much as i despise Murdoch, he is for now small beer in this matter. Propagandist apart.
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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1953 on: August 22, 2014, 03:33:25 pm »
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1954 on: August 22, 2014, 04:52:14 pm »
Executed. Brutal.

Occupational hazard for a spy though
Thinking is overrated.
The mind is a tool, it's not meant to be used that much.
Rest, love, observe. Laugh.

Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1955 on: August 22, 2014, 05:04:32 pm »
Devastating comeback there - don't think I'll recover from it.

Chance would be a fine thing

Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1956 on: August 22, 2014, 05:16:38 pm »
Nice trial they had. Democratically elected government and all.

Snitches get got, yo

Offline Broad Spectrum

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1957 on: August 22, 2014, 05:17:56 pm »
http://www.timesofisrael.com/four-year-old-boy-killed-in-mortar-attack-on-shaar-hanegev/

First Israeli child dies from a mortar shell, fired from Gaza.

Offline BUSHMILLS

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1958 on: August 22, 2014, 05:26:58 pm »
Snitches get got, yo

The authentic voice of liberal-left hypocrisy, right there.

Offline nyctex

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1959 on: August 22, 2014, 05:29:14 pm »