Author Topic: Statistics and Analytics - insight into our performance  (Read 194377 times)

Offline BassTunedToRed

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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #760 on: October 4, 2016, 03:11:03 pm »
Interesting stat I saw today is that against Swansea this weekend we conceded 5 Big Chances....just as much as the previous 6 Gameweeks combined.....

Against Spurs, Chelsea and Arsenal away we conceded only 3.....

There was some underestimation going on against Swansea, I can tell u that.

Bear in mind we'd only conceded four-or-more big chances in a whole game four times since August 2012 in the league before Saturday, yet we did that in under half an hour at Swansea.

As good as we were in the second half, the game could very easily have been done and dusted long before that.

Offline SC04OCT

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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #761 on: October 4, 2016, 03:41:11 pm »
Bored at work so decided to do a stat-round up to see how teams are doing after 7 games.

Goals scored/conceded (GD)

Liverpool – 18/10 (+8)
Man United – 13/8 (+5)
Chelsea – 12/9 (+3)
Man City – 18/7 (+11)
Arsenal – 16/7 (+9)
Spurs – 12/3 (+9)

Thoughts:

Wow at Spurs only conceding 3 so far. I had no idea. That’s impressive. I am satisfied that we are joint top for goals scored, but we’ve conceded the most goals so far, so that’s not good. It would look a bit better if we didn’t fall asleep after going 4-1 up at Arsenal, but it is what it is (oh, and Vardy’s illegal goal).

Chances created (chance conversion percentage)

Liverpool – 111 (16.2%)
Man United – 84 (15.4%)
Chelsea – 92 (13%)
Man City – 91 (19.7%)
Arsenal – 77 (20.7%)
Spurs – 90 (13.3%)

Thoughts:

Loving the amount of chances we’ve created so far. Pleased with the fact that our chance conversion percentage is higher than Man United, Chelsea and Spurs. Arsenal’s chance conversion is pretty incredible but it surprises me that they’ve created the least chances out of the 6 Clubs, and by a considerable distance too. Unexpected.

Average possession (pass accuracy)

Liverpool – 56% (85%)
Man United – 54% (86%)
Chelsea – 54% (86%)
Man City – 58% (85%)
Arsenal – 55% (86%)
Spurs – 53% (82%)

Thoughts:

Spurs pretty poor here. Other than them, it’s very even. Not much to say.

Shot accuracy

Liverpool – 58%
Man United – 46%
Chelsea – 47%
Man City – 51%
Arsenal – 50%
Spurs – 47%

Thoughts:

Impressed with Liverpool here. Considerably more accurate than the rest of them. Man United’s accuracy is very poor.

Forward passes (backward passes)

Liverpool – 64.4% (35.6%)
Man United – 62.2% (37.8%)
Chelsea – 63.5% (36.5%)
Man City – 61.4% (38.6%)
Arsenal – 63.9% (36.1%)
Spurs – 65% (35%)

Thoughts:

Happy with how forward thinking we are. Spurs look impressively attacking too. Shocked with City’s stats here. I thought United would have the most backward passes, but nope. I wonder why?

Overall thoughts:

Pleased with how Liverpool are coming along. Especially considering our stats are after playing 5 out of 7 games away, and 3 of them being away to our direct rivals for the top 4.

Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #762 on: October 4, 2016, 03:47:16 pm »
Bear in mind we'd only conceded four-or-more big chances in a whole game four times since August 2012 in the league before Saturday, yet we did that in under half an hour at Swansea.

As good as we were in the second half, the game could very easily have been done and dusted long before that.
Interesting - I assume one was their goal which was a corner? Do you know how many of the others were from crosses into the box? I recall Baston having a couple of headers he should have put away and Hoom missed one in the last minute........

Man Utd are second for number of crosses this season so with the likes of Ibrahimovic, Pogba and Fellaini we can expect another bombardment which could be a test.
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Offline BassTunedToRed

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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #763 on: October 4, 2016, 04:21:52 pm »
Interesting - I assume one was their goal which was a corner? Do you know how many of the others were from crosses into the box? I recall Baston having a couple of headers he should have put away and Hoom missed one in the last minute........

Man Utd are second for number of crosses this season so with the likes of Ibrahimovic, Pogba and Fellaini we can expect another bombardment which could be a test.

Here's the list:

4' Baston - Header - Off Target - Open Play

7' Fer - Shot - Goal - Set Piece (corner)

20' Cork - Shot - Saved - Open play

25' Baston - Header - Off Target - Set Piece

92' van der Hoorn - Shot - Off Target - Open Play

I'm terrible for remembering stuff like this, but I think they were all crosses or balls over the top (the Cork one?).

Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #764 on: October 4, 2016, 04:42:19 pm »
Here's the list:

4' Baston - Header - Off Target - Open Play

7' Fer - Shot - Goal - Set Piece (corner)

20' Cork - Shot - Saved - Open play

25' Baston - Header - Off Target - Set Piece

92' van der Hoorn - Shot - Off Target - Open Play

I'm terrible for remembering stuff like this, but I think they were all crosses or balls over the top (the Cork one?).
Thanks - although I can't remember the Cork chance either - so four out five 'big chances' coming from crosses, we need to sort that out before our next three games.
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Offline Brian Blessed

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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #766 on: October 4, 2016, 11:00:13 pm »
I think's getting things mixed up in my head, but...


The Reds have had more shots on goal than any other team in the league (135).

They are also averaging seven shots on target per game, again leading the league. Their shot accuracy (58%) is the best in the division.

So 49 shots on target, how is that 58% of 135 total shots?
Anyone else being strangely drawn to Dion Dublin's nipples?


Offline the_red_pill

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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #768 on: October 5, 2016, 08:03:11 am »
Anything on shot conversion rates? Whether individually or as a unit?
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Offline BassTunedToRed

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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #769 on: October 5, 2016, 08:48:55 am »
I think's getting things mixed up in my head, but...

The Reds have had more shots on goal than any other team in the league (135).

They are also averaging seven shots on target per game, again leading the league. Their shot accuracy (58%) is the best in the division.

So 49 shots on target, how is that 58% of 135 total shots?

It isn't. From what I can find on WhoScored, 58% (49/85) of Liverpool's shots have been on target when excluding blocked shots, and there have been 50 of those.

So we can either say we've had 58% accuracy or we've had 135 shots, but not both together (if that makes sense!).

Offline BassTunedToRed

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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #770 on: October 5, 2016, 08:55:47 am »
Anything on shot conversion rates? Whether individually or as a unit?

This is all league only....

Milner leads the way with 100% - four shots, four goals ;-)

The team as a whole is currently at 13.3% which is good - league average is always around 10%, so it's good to be above it, but also not by some freakishly high amount that definitely won't continue. That said, without the penalties it's a more modest 10.7%.

For players with at least ten shots:

Coutinho: 3 goals from 29 = 10.3%
Firmino: 3/17 = 17.6%
Mané and Lallana: Both 3/16 = 18.8%
Sturridge: 0/14
Wijnaldum: 0/11

Offline the_red_pill

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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #771 on: October 5, 2016, 09:20:13 am »
This is all league only....

Milner leads the way with 100% - four shots, four goals ;-)

The team as a whole is currently at 13.3% which is good - league average is always around 10%, so it's good to be above it, but also not by some freakishly high amount that definitely won't continue. That said, without the penalties it's a more modest 10.7%.

For players with at least ten shots:

Coutinho: 3 goals from 29 = 10.3%
Firmino: 3/17 = 17.6%
Mané and Lallana: Both 3/16 = 18.8%
Sturridge: 0/14
Wijnaldum: 0/11
Firmino, Lallana and Mane's got very high conversion rates though. They'll not be able to sustain these in parallel, but as long as they share these amongs them from one period to another - and hopefully Sturridge/Origi, we're in for a glut of goals.
« Last Edit: October 5, 2016, 09:21:54 am by the_red_pill »
"Some listen to understand. Others listen to respond."
"A fool does not delight in understanding, but only in revealing his own mind."
In such a sumptuous festival of shite, I wouldn't be so quick to pick a winner..

But he'd make the shortlist

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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #772 on: October 5, 2016, 02:11:46 pm »
Firmino, Lallana and Mane's got very high conversion rates though. They'll not be able to sustain these in parallel, but as long as they share these amongs them from one period to another - and hopefully Sturridge/Origi, we're in for a glut of goals.
Over the course of a season one of them could keep their conversion rates around that level. I wouldn't expect it to, but players certainley have in the past.

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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #773 on: October 5, 2016, 02:42:34 pm »
It isn't. From what I can find on WhoScored, 58% (49/85) of Liverpool's shots have been on target when excluding blocked shots, and there have been 50 of those.

So we can either say we've had 58% accuracy or we've had 135 shots, but not both together (if that makes sense!).
So the 58% is not blocked shots. That makes sense. So we've had 50 blocked shots.
Anyone else being strangely drawn to Dion Dublin's nipples?

Offline houkura

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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #774 on: October 5, 2016, 10:24:23 pm »
Over the course of a season one of them could keep their conversion rates around that level. I wouldn't expect it to, but players certainley have in the past.

Andalso Sturridge and Wijnaldum will raise their numbers.
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Offline BassTunedToRed

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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #775 on: November 3, 2016, 09:59:50 am »
I've had a quick look at who should be on corner duty...

Should Coutinho Take Liverpool’s Corners?

I recently looked into whether Liverpool were better at defending set pieces this season (here), and the numbers suggested that they weren’t. The Reds then proceeded to let in dead ball goals against Hull, Swansea and West Bromwich Albion in three of their next four league matches. Either I might have a clue regarding what I write about on here, or I’m a jinx. You decide.

Anyway, that article was prompted by a John Aldridge column in the Liverpool Echo, and something he has said this week (here) inspired me to write another quick post. When talking about Liverpool’s performance at Crystal Palace, Aldo said:

The fact that we’ve found a corner taker is also a real positive. Our corners have been horrendous for a long time, I could never see us scoring from them. But Philippe Coutinho put in some really good deliveries and hopefully we’ll stick with him now… When we had Suarez and Steve Gerrard deliveries, you could see the percentage of goals getting knocked up.

Have Liverpool found a decent corner taker in Coutinho though? Or did the Reds benefit from some random variation at Selhurst Park?

The starting point for any such investigation is to see what consists an average performance. There were over 4,000 corners taken in the Premier League in 2015/16, so let’s begin with a look at how many of those resulted in goals or key passes.



We can see that it takes roughly six corners to create a chance on average, and of those 8% result in direct assists (which interestingly is roughly the same as the percentage of all chances that get converted too). It’s important to remember here that not all goals from corners are direct assists; the three that Liverpool conceded that I mentioned in the introduction were all from the second ball, and not the corner itself. We are interested in direct assists here though, to try to establish who should be Liverpool’s corner taker.

There are only three Liverpool players who have taken more than three corners so far this season: Coutinho (six), Milner (seventeen) and Henderson (twenty-eight). Let’s see how their corner stats from their careers (since 2009/10, via whoscored.com) rack up against each other and league average.



Of the three candidates, we can say this for their corner taking careers to date:

Milner finds a teammate most often.

Henderson creates a chance most often.

Coutinho gets an assist most often.

As always the data won’t tell us everything (speed and flight of the ball, short or long corner etc), but I wonder if Coutinho actually does take better corners, or if the assists just make it seem that way? It’s certainly fair to say that when any stat is over twice as potent as the standard rate (as Coutinho’s key passes – converted at 19% compared to a league average of just 8% – are) you would assume it won’t last. Lionel Messi converts shots at roughly double average rate, but he’s probably the greatest player of all time playing for one of the greatest teams of all time; is Coutinho the greatest corner taker of all time?!

It takes seventy-seven corners on average to generate an assist in the Premier League, yet the Brazilian has two assists from just six corners this season! Maybe he should be the Reds’ permanent corner taker, but I wouldn’t pin my hopes on loads more goals like we saw at Palace just yet.

Offline Nessy76

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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #776 on: November 3, 2016, 10:13:39 am »
Quote
I wonder if Coutinho actually does take better corners, or if the assists just make it seem that way?

Good post, although the above had me scratching my head a little. (Surely any corner that ends in a goal is a good corner by definition?)
Very small sample size for each individual, of course, so there could be some reversion to the mean over time, but on present evidence Coutinho should indeed be taking corners.

There's also the fact that he's less of an aerial threat in the box than the alternatives, which is the missing part of the information here. You can swing in great corners, but you need to get the right head to the ball.

Interesting stuff, thanks for sharing.
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Offline Brasco

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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #777 on: November 3, 2016, 10:32:11 am »
Forgive me for being naive, I don't know the history of these statistical terms or why they are included,but I've been trying to make sense of why the "corner accuracy" stats are so off the mark in terms of relating to outcome.

I suppose, for one thing, if you take short corners, this stat will be artificially inflated, but without seeing what percentage were actually crossed in compared to played short, it's impossible to tease that out of the stats.

Also it seems a misnomer to call a ball inaccurate if it was delivered exactly where the play had dictated (from training runs) but a defender has got to it first.
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Offline BassTunedToRed

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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #778 on: November 3, 2016, 10:33:36 am »
Good post, although the above had me scratching my head a little. (Surely any corner that ends in a goal is a good corner by definition?)

Sorry, yeah I could've phrased that better! I suppose what I was getting at is that he may seem to be better at corners than he actually is because he's had a few assists - it's obviously not quite the same, but you can get an assist for the most innocuous of passes because the next guy dribbles past five defenders and scores. So my theory would be that assists from corners can also be slightly random - after all, if he finds a teammate less often than average from a corner, why he does he get assists so often? I guess maybe when his are good, they're very good!

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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #779 on: November 3, 2016, 11:06:16 am »
I suppose, for one thing, if you take short corners, this stat will be artificially inflated, but without seeing what percentage were actually crossed in compared to played short, it's impossible to tease that out of the stats.

Also it seems a misnomer to call a ball inaccurate if it was delivered exactly where the play had dictated (from training runs) but a defender has got to it first.

Yeah the short corners will make a big difference to this. The data will exist at Opta, but unfortunately nobody is kind enough to share that with the amateurs like me!

Re accuracy - fair point, and perhaps internally clubs have analysts monitoring this sort of thing, but it obviouly can't be accounted for by an external data gathering company.

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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #780 on: November 3, 2016, 02:54:48 pm »
Sorry, yeah I could've phrased that better! I suppose what I was getting at is that he may seem to be better at corners than he actually is because he's had a few assists - it's obviously not quite the same, but you can get an assist for the most innocuous of passes because the next guy dribbles past five defenders and scores. So my theory would be that assists from corners can also be slightly random - after all, if he finds a teammate less often than average from a corner, why he does he get assists so often? I guess maybe when his are good, they're very good!

True, but there's no reason to assume that noise would be any worse for Coutinho than for anybody else, so the comparison from player to player would automatically level things like that over time, unless there's something special happening, but if it's leading to goals often enough to distort the figures, you'd still want to stick with it.
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Offline Redcap

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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #781 on: November 3, 2016, 11:03:02 pm »


Interesting stats. I think we need more before we can draw any sort of useful conclusions though.

Other questions to ask include:

* What do the stats look like when we include goals from second/third balls?
* Do chances of a goal being scored increase when we win the first/second balls?
* What do they look like when we disaggregate short corners?

I think Coutinho's conversion rate is a bit noisy. It could be that he's 'lucky' with some of his corners. But it could also be that he aims to provide an assist directly from the corner more than often than other players. After all, while the objective of every corner is obviously to score a goal, there are various different ways to go about it - short corners, near post flicks, working the ball to a lurker on the edge of the area etc.


Offline BassTunedToRed

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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #782 on: November 4, 2016, 09:20:12 am »
Interesting stats. I think we need more before we can draw any sort of useful conclusions though.

Other questions to ask include:

* What do the stats look like when we include goals from second/third balls?
* Do chances of a goal being scored increase when we win the first/second balls?
* What do they look like when we disaggregate short corners?

I think Coutinho's conversion rate is a bit noisy. It could be that he's 'lucky' with some of his corners. But it could also be that he aims to provide an assist directly from the corner more than often than other players. After all, while the objective of every corner is obviously to score a goal, there are various different ways to go about it - short corners, near post flicks, working the ball to a lurker on the edge of the area etc.

All good points, and with full access to the Opta data that would be possible to look into. With what the likes of whoscored share in public though...

Offline koppper

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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #783 on: November 4, 2016, 09:29:20 am »
Good stats. Coutinho's better conversion rate could be noisy or lucky, or it could be better because the ball comes in at a greater speed or with more whip? Dont know how you can measure this though.
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Offline Lustig

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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #784 on: November 10, 2016, 06:59:41 pm »
I've ran a little opta comparison between our 2013 team and this one :)










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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #785 on: November 10, 2016, 08:32:59 pm »
The Guardian have done their own prem table "eighted points according to the quality of the teams they were won from, making a victory wrested from one of the top teams significantly more valuable than a similar result against, say, Sunderland" and other metrics.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2016/nov/08/premier-league-table-liverpool-top-burnley-west-ham

We are top!!

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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #786 on: November 11, 2016, 11:31:39 am »
I've ran a little opta comparison between our 2013 team and this one :)








Can you show comparisons of our defending in relation to our rivals? e.g. city arsenal Chelsea spurs man utd?

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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #787 on: November 11, 2016, 11:37:36 am »
I've ran a little opta comparison between our 2013 team and this one :)

Where are you getting these stats?

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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #788 on: November 11, 2016, 04:04:42 pm »
Can you show comparisons of our defending in relation to our rivals? e.g. city arsenal Chelsea spurs man utd?


yup

Where are you getting these stats?


www.fantasyfootballscout.co.uk - you have to be a member :)

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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #789 on: November 11, 2016, 04:22:08 pm »
Ok, here goes first versus Arsenal





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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #790 on: November 11, 2016, 04:35:18 pm »
Vs Chelsea




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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #791 on: November 11, 2016, 04:55:43 pm »
vs City






Offline Kopenhagen

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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #792 on: November 11, 2016, 05:29:12 pm »
"There is no final victory, just as there is no final defeat. There is just the same battle to be fought over and over again."

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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #793 on: November 11, 2016, 09:13:27 pm »

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LFC stats
« Reply #794 on: November 25, 2016, 10:50:32 am »
Helo i'm looking for EPL 2016/2017 players stats with this info: most distance covered, sprints...

I dont find this info on squawka...Anybody know any other site?

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Re: LFC stats
« Reply #795 on: November 25, 2016, 10:52:10 am »
Opta?
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Re: LFC stats
« Reply #796 on: November 25, 2016, 10:55:02 am »
no can't find...don't think opta is free...

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Re: LFC stats
« Reply #797 on: November 25, 2016, 12:41:24 pm »
Helo i'm looking for EPL 2016/2017 players stats with this info: most distance covered, sprints...

I dont find this info on squawka...Anybody know any other site?

Nowhere publishes this info. Simon Brundish occasionally tweets bits and bobs but nowhere has all the info unfortunately.

Offline riismeister

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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #798 on: February 12, 2017, 02:13:40 pm »
Just a few points per game samples from this season so far;

Overall PL; 1.96 (25 games)
PL with Hendo/Gini/Lallana starting; 2.07 (15)
PL with Coutino/Firmino/Mane starting; 2.25 (12)
PL with all 6 starting; 2.50 (4)
PL with Can starting; 1.54 (13)
PL with Origi starting; 2.00 (7)
PL with Sturridge starting; 2.00 (5)

Not sure if there's really anything to read into this except that front 6 of Hendo/Gini/Lallana/Coutinho/Firmino/Mane in Klopp's system is rather strong.

Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: Using Stats to Talk about Liverpool
« Reply #799 on: March 5, 2017, 12:42:29 am »
The most shocking stat I've seen this season is :

17 games against bottom 13 teams 26 goals conceded - that's 1.53 goals conceded per game!!

Extrapolated it means over the course of the season we'd concede almost 60 goals against bottom 13 at 1.76 points won per game. This is absolute and total lunacy.

Against Top 7 we win 2.20 ppg and concede 0.8 goals per game. Against top teams we're on higher level than against the dross, I had to double check the numbers as I couldn't believe it.