Topic: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.

[Kuks]

Very true, we have lost out on 2 big players because of it

Any names?

[CraigDS]

Thanks for putting my numbers right.

It shows there is value out there and that you can compete without having to pay extortionate wages.

I'm not saying we should be aspiring to Spurs' level but they have decent squad/team and their model works. Once you get top four then you can start paying higher wages and transfer fees to stay there and hopefully challenge for the higher places.

Your point is spot on.

[Funky_Gibbons]

I don't think that's true. Yes we've spent a bit but not that much.

I agree with that actually. They've been much much better than us in the market over the last few years.

Right now Spurs are improving again, whilst we're not really get any first teamers in

We are now trying to put right mistakes made in the transfer market for the last few seasons. The last transfer window was a success and so far we have signed some promising players.

Spurs have signed one player to improve their first team so far and we still have plenty of time to improve our first team. After Coutinho made his debut we were top three form. We just need to tweak here and there.

[Schmidt]

I think this article is a bit misleading to be honest. Are we really saving £24mn a year? Take Carragher for instance, Lets say he was on £125k a week, have we saved £6.5m? No not in my view as we've replaced him with Toure who's going to be on at least £75k a week... so at most £2.6m. Getting rid of fringe players, yep that works (e.g. spearing and/or Assaidi) but someone like Skrtel or Downing would still need to be replaced.

What I don't understand is why we're not looking to sell these players deemed surplus to requirements (for whatever reason). Whilst I appreciate there may be a loan fee, most of the players who are being loaned out will be replaced with new players who will require a capital outlay. Thus, my initial reaction is, "oh great, we've saved £10m in wages loaning out these players (vs the £25m quoted above), but we now need to go out and spend £8m on a new player". Do these loans actually just weaken us financially and we should just accept what we can get now? Do we want another Aquilani?

The rumour was that Toure is on around £40k a week so that's a fair bit less.

The way I see it, wages are only part of the equation. We didn't loan Skrtel out solely because of his wages, we loaned him because he doesn't seem adept at playing the way Brendan wants the team to play and looks likely to be 3rd choice at best. Reina was on big wages sure, but he also made it clear he wanted to move to Barca so we got a replacement in early and then loaned Reina when his deal fell through.

Looking at the team now, I'd say the quality of it hasn't dropped over the past couple of seasons, if anything it's better now than it was 3 years ago and the average age is in a better state too.

[CraigDS]

I understand your point but off the top of my head I can think of very few cases where this actually plays out and they come back from a loan and someone offers you the £100k you quote. On the flip side, first hand, I can think of Aquilani, Cole and Carroll who have all caused us pain as the contracts drain down. From what I understand, the loan income very rarely makes up for a) the loss of capital price and b) the fact that quite often we still contribute to wages in a lot of cases, thus the savings are not what initially as they seem. (e.g. are we not still paying 40% of Reina's wages at Napoli, despite them being loaded from selling Cavani)

Carroll is a perfect example of it working.

WHU paid us £2m to have him, paid all his wages, and then paid us £15m (plus £2m addons) to take him off our hands after impressing on loan. There was no chance we'd of got £17m plus £2m addons in a straight sale the summer before for him.

As long as we aren't left wanting due to not getting the transfer fee's in (i.e. the club has enough cash to spend anyway via money from owners or credit facility) and we can sign who we want still, I don't get the big deal.

[markedasred]

Dont forget that living in London or Monaco (tax free) is far more attractive to live than the North West of England for a lot of foreigners

If you saw where some of the clubs are and what there is to do there you may not be in such a rush to say that. yes it is hotter back home, but my wife is southern French and it is depressingly boring outside of the cities and the best parts of the coast. I need a load of paperbacks to get me through 2 weeks there. No concerts, 1 cinema 25 miles away, 1 screen, old film at that, boring empty bars, I could go on. Liverpool is far more exotic & interesting than most European 3rd, 4th or 5th largest cities.

[tommy LFC]

I would imagine Aspas is on much less than Downing. And already looks better.

I would imagine Sturridge is on less than Carroll was. Easily better.

I would imagine Coutinho is on much less than Joe Cole. On a different planet.

You can see where they are going with this, it will just take time. It's something that Brendan and the owners are very much together on (it seems), so this is the way forward and it looks like Brendan will get time to see it through.

[SlowRap]

"...as of 2012 Dortmund spent €80 million on wages"

^ Last seasons CL runners up btw 

[naka]

Looking at the team now, I'd say the quality of it hasn't dropped over the past couple of seasons, if anything it's better now than it was 3 years ago and the average age is in a better state too.

i would say the quality of the squad is nowhere near it was 3 years ago
we have lost some great players
torres,kuyt, pepe, carra,alonso, luis. and the mainstays of the team now are still stevie, glenn,lucas and agger,
who apart from suarez/coutinho has improved us

[Byrneand]

The rumour was that Toure is on around £40k a week so that's a fair bit less.

Look, I'm not going to argue what he's on. This article below seems to suggest he's on £75k a week which doesn't sound out of kilter to me given he came on a free and his experience. Look at what random players are earning in Russia etc. I know he wanted to stay in the north west, but £40k/week still sounds cheap. Point I was trying to make is Liverpool haven't saved £125k after Carragher has retired, they've saved £50-85k a week, less sign on and agent fees.

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2892/transfer-zone/2013/05/29/4011688/kolo-toure-move-a-calculated-gamble-for-rodgers-liverpool

The way I see it, wages are only part of the equation. We didn't loan Skrtel out solely because of his wages, we loaned him because he doesn't seem adept at playing the way Brendan wants the team to play and looks likely to be 3rd choice at best.

I agree. If that's the case  though then why not sell him to the likes of Zenit or the other clubs who were interested. It's not like he's going to come back next year with a totally different style.

[TitanTrigger]

i would say the quality of the squad is nowhere near it was 3 years ago
we have lost some great players
torres,kuyt, pepe, carra,alonso, luis. and the mainstays of the team now are still stevie, glenn,lucas and agger,
who apart from suarez/coutinho has improved us

How about Sturridge who scored 10 in 16 games, never understand why the lad is not as highly rated as he should be on here.

[clinical]

I honestly think a first team signing such as Papadopoulos would increase morale of supporters significantly

[CraigDS]

torres,kuyt, pepe, carra,alonso, luis. and the mainstays of the team now are still stevie, glenn,lucas and agger,
who apart from suarez/coutinho has improved us

Alonso left in 2009 so 4 years ago now.

Suarez, Coutinho and Sturridge have all improved the team, probably Enrique too.

[CraigDS]

Look, I'm not going to argue what he's on. This article below seems to suggest he's on £75k a week which doesn't sound out of kilter to me given he came on a free and his experience. Look at what random players are earning in Russia etc. I know he wanted to stay in the north west, but £40k/week still sounds cheap. Point I was trying to make is Liverpool haven't saved £125k after Carragher has retired, they've saved £50-85k a week, less sign on and agent fees.

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2892/transfer-zone/2013/05/29/4011688/kolo-toure-move-a-calculated-gamble-for-rodgers-liverpool

Mate, goal.com is a fucking awful source.

[redmark]

i would say the quality of the squad is nowhere near it was 3 years ago
we have lost some great players
torres,kuyt, pepe, carra,alonso, luis. and the mainstays of the team now are still stevie, glenn,lucas and agger,
who apart from suarez/coutinho has improved us

Torres was done when he left. Kuyt spent his last season mostly on the bench. Reina's last 3 years weren't a patch on the previous three. Alonso left 4 years ago.

Sturridge improves us. Enrique is an improvement over Aurelio/Insua. Johnson is an improvement over Arbeloa. Allen/Henderson is an improvement over Meireles/Poulsen (comparing to Alonso/Mascherano is wishful thinking).

[Byrneand]

Carroll is a perfect example of it working.

WHU paid us £2m to have him, paid all his wages, and then paid us £15m (plus £2m addons) to take him off our hands after impressing on loan. There was no chance we'd of got £17m plus £2m addons in a straight sale the summer before for him.

As long as we aren't left wanting due to not getting the transfer fee's in (i.e. the club has enough cash to spend anyway via money from owners or credit facility) and we can sign who we want still, I don't get the big deal.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18995674

You've got to remeber that FSG are also having to finance working capital. So the £17m we didn't have in the bank for all of 2012 would of cost us c.£1.7m in interest payments on the debt assuming a 10% cost of capital. So ultimately we've ended up in the same financial position but would of been able to draw a line under the saga a year ago and move on with improving the team and evolution of the squad 12-months earlier.

[Lenin.]

Any names?

Mkitarayan & Soldado I think he is refering to.

[krispy.red]

I honestly think a first team signing such as Papadopoulos would increase morale of supporters significantly

No doubt you'd still find something to cry about though.

[Byrneand]

Mate, goal.com is a fucking awful source.

Don't disagree. Just when I did a quick google no where else actually quoted a figure all the rest just said "substantially less" which to me is taken straight from the LFC PR company to make it sound like a great deal.

As I said above, 40k a week or 75k a week, LFC have not saved £125k a week now that Carraghers retired especially once sign-on and agent fees have been paid out.

[redmark]

Don't disagree. Just when I did a quick google no where else actually quoted a figure all the rest just said "substantially less" which to me is taken straight from the LFC PR company to make it sound like a great deal.

As I said above, 40k a week or 75k a week, LFC have not saved £125k a week now that Carraghers retired especially once sign-on and agent fees have been paid out.

The £40k was being quoted in half decent (broadsheet) sources at the time. I don't think anyone's claimed we've saved the full £125k per week, so I'm not sure why you're arguing that point.

[CraigDS]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18995674

You've got to remeber that FSG are also having to finance working capital. So the £17m we didn't have in the bank for all of 2012 would of cost us c.£1.7m in interest payments on the debt assuming a 10% cost of capital. So ultimately we've ended up in the same financial position but would of been able to draw a line under the saga a year ago and move on with improving the team and evolution of the squad 12-months earlier.

1. The offer was never made or we'd of snapped their hand off.
2. You can't just assume interest costs or the state of our cash flows.

[naka]

Torres was done when he left. Kuyt spent his last season mostly on the bench. Reina's last 3 years weren't a patch on the previous three. Alonso left 4 years ago.

Sturridge improves us. Enrique is an improvement over Aurelio/Insua. Johnson is an improvement over Arbeloa. Allen/Henderson is an improvement over Meireles/Poulsen (comparing to Alonso/Mascherano is wishful thinking).

sorry the comment was
" the quality hasnt dropped over the past few years nad if anything it is better than it was 3 years ago,"
i just think that is plainly incorrect,
jez over the past 3 years we have had poulsen, carroll, cole,konchesky,meireles,downing
these are all downgrades on teh squad 3 years ago

we also keep hammering torres but i for one still rate him ahead of sturridge   

[Schmidt]

Look, I'm not going to argue what he's on. This article below seems to suggest he's on £75k a week which doesn't sound out of kilter to me given he came on a free and his experience. Look at what random players are earning in Russia etc. I know he wanted to stay in the north west, but £40k/week still sounds cheap. Point I was trying to make is Liverpool haven't saved £125k after Carragher has retired, they've saved £50-85k a week, less sign on and agent fees.

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2892/transfer-zone/2013/05/29/4011688/kolo-toure-move-a-calculated-gamble-for-rodgers-liverpool

Goal.com? Yeah okay.

I agree. If that's the case  though then why not sell him to the likes of Zenit or the other clubs who were interested. It's not like he's going to come back next year with a totally different style.

Were Zenit interested in Skrtel? Maybe last summer after he'd had the best season of his career, but nobody knows if they still want him. It always seems to be assumed that there's a plethora of Russian clubs waiting to take him but I never see any genuine evidence that they're interested.

[CraigDS]

As I said above, 40k a week or 75k a week, LFC have not saved £125k a week now that Carraghers retired especially once sign-on and agent fees have been paid out.

No one is suggesting otherwise, even the original post says...

'They're saving £500,00 a week. £2 million a month. £24 million a year. While some of this has been reinvested in wages for new players, lets hope the rest is too. Wisely.'

[redmark]

sorry the comment was
" the quality hasnt dropped over the past few years nad if anything it is better than it was 3 years ago,"
i just think that is plainly incorrect,
jez over the past 3 years we have had poulsen, carroll, cole,konchesky,meireles,downing
these are all downgrades on teh squad 3 years ago

we also keep hammering torres but i for one still rate him ahead of sturridge   

We're on our third manager in that time. It's not a reflection on Rodgers (or FSG, largely) that we had Poulsen, Cole, Carroll and Konchesky during that 3 year period. We don't now.

As for Torres better than Sturridge - in 2013 - no chance.

[Byrneand]

The £40k was being quoted in half decent (broadsheet) sources at the time. I don't think anyone's claimed we've saved the full £125k per week, so I'm not sure why you're arguing that point.

The entire opening post is how we've shaved £24m a year on wages; it's a BS report based on that. We've saved more like £10m, but we will probably need to have a capital outlay to replace most of these players.

[markedasred]

No, that's not what is being said. We need to get better value from the players we have. That will require a greater proportion of the total contribution (say 418 PL 'player-games' per season) coming from younger, cheaper options - particularly the 'peripheral' contributions. But the core can be well paid, established professionals. The idea is that - comparing a few years ago - you have Sterling or Ibe on the bench instead of Dirk Kuyt or Joe Cole; Toure (on about £40k) rather than Carragher on £100k.

At some point, a 'sweet spot' has to be found where a core of well paid established players and a bunch of cheaper, younger players have to be good enough to make top four, increase revenues and attract better players. But that sweet spot can be found without investing hundreds of millions.

I like what you say, but the first manager to achieve that will be lauded from rooftops all over Britain, as nobody beats the sugardaddy stranglehold at the moment. Manure have played a blinder under baconface despite the debt loading, but that could come deliciously crashing down in the years to come. Daniel Levy fulfils the stereotype of his culture with his financial acumen, but who can help but admire that, whilst top 4 is still mainly elusive to them. So many factors can come in to play but the overspend still wins the league at the moment.
All that seems possible is winning the next three below the top three mini league, still requiring loads of luck as well as all that good judgment (against the footballing savvy of Levy & Wenger, and no stalking horse like Newcastle the year before)

[Schmidt]

sorry the comment was
" the quality hasnt dropped over the past few years nad if anything it is better than it was 3 years ago,"
i just think that is plainly incorrect,
jez over the past 3 years we have had poulsen, carroll, cole,konchesky,meireles,downing
these are all downgrades on teh squad 3 years ago

we also keep hammering torres but i for one still rate him ahead of sturridge   

I said the squad is better now than it has been at any point in the past 3 years and I'd say that's accurate. 3 years ago we had a mostly injured Gerrard, a disinterested Torres with zero backup, Kuyt and Maxi barely played, Alonso and Mascherano had gone and we had Konchesky and Aurelio at left-back.

In the time since FSG came in the squad has had some ups and downs, but I'd say since Brendan arrived the quality has generally improved.

[Byrneand]

1. The offer was never made or we'd of snapped their hand off.
2. You can't just assume interest costs or the state of our cash flows.

So what, the club gets money interest free to run itself. BS. On a global scale, it's not exactly General Motors so loan payments would be pretty steep; I'm sure we can dig that out of the accounts, and then cost of equity given the risk profile is going to be c.10%. So actually a 10% cost of capital is probably not far off the mark.

The fact that it appears that we can't buy before we sell sould suggest that the club is working under working capital constraints so it does make quite a bit of a difference to what our squad looks like over the next two years.

[CraigDS]

So what, the club gets money interest free to run itself. BS. On a global scale, it's not exactly General Motors so loan payments would be pretty steep; I'm sure we can dig that out of the accounts, and then cost of equity given the risk profile is going to be c.10%. So actually a 10% cost of capital is probably not far off the mark.

The fact that it appears that we can't buy before we sell sould suggest that the club is working under working capital constraints so it does make quite a bit of a difference to what our squad looks like over the next two years.

You are ignoring the interest free loans from FSG though...

[TitanTrigger]

I like what you say, but the first manager to achieve that will be lauded from rooftops all over Britain, as nobody beats the sugardaddy stranglehold at the moment. Manure have played a blinder under baconface despite the debt loading, but that could come deliciously crashing down in the years to come. Daniel Levy fulfils the stereotype of his culture with his financial acumen, but who can help but admire that, whilst top 4 is still mainly elusive to them. So many factors can come in to play but the overspend still wins the league at the moment.

Chelsea finished 6th two years ago, I'm really interested to see what would happen if one of the current big 4 have a bad season and miss out on Champions League.

[Byrneand]

You are ignoring the interest free loans from FSG though...

I assume that's sarcasm as FSG obviously have a cost of capital to meet too. It's just a case of raising debt at group level (due to greater diversity) and then dropping it into the subsid

[markedasred]

"Chelsea finished 6th two years ago, I'm really interested to see what would happen if one of the current big 4 have a bad season and miss out on Champions League."
one of them almost inevitably will, one year or another, and Arsenal look the most likely

[Arthurs Bar]

I heard were taking the sausage out the half time rolls. But don't worry it will be just as good if not better.

[redmark]

I like what you say, but the first manager to achieve that will be lauded from rooftops all over Britain, as nobody beats the sugardaddy stranglehold at the moment. Manure have played a blinder under baconface despite the debt loading, but that could come deliciously crashing down in the years to come. Daniel Levy fulfils the stereotype of his culture with his financial acumen, but who can help but admire that, whilst top 4 is still mainly elusive to them. So many factors can come in to play but the overspend still wins the league at the moment.
All that seems possible is winning the next three below the top three mini league, still requiring loads of luck as well as all that good judgment (against the footballing savvy of Levy & Wenger, and no stalking horse like Newcastle the year before)

But winning the mini-league of three is entirely possible, and all that is needed to make that first step, to higher revenues and attracting better players. There are only two sugar-daddy clubs to compete with. United have massive revenues. But Spurs and Arsenal are challengeable. Chelsea have, as TT says, had bad seasons.

[TitanTrigger]

I assuem that's sarcasm as FSG obviously have a cost of capital to meet to. It's just a case of raising debt at group level (due to greater diversity) and then dropping it into the subsid

Why does it have to come from debt? Henry said in a recent interview that FSG as a group has not made a loss in years.

[CraigDS]

I assume that's sarcasm as FSG obviously have a cost of capital to meet too. It's just a case of raising debt at group level (due to greater diversity) and then dropping it into the subsid

That will be their issue though, there is no cost to the loans for LFC.

You may speculate they'll pull the cost (be it £1.7m) from the club eventually, but you'd be wildly speculating as there is no stipulation for this to happen.

[tommy LFC]

Chelsea finished 6th two years ago, I'm really interested to see what would happen if one of the current big 4 have a bad season and miss out on Champions League.

That could just happen....

[Almo]

If we sign Fiscal Mingebag the Glaswegian Right-Wing in the hole playmaker 'tongue like a pastie' - that will surely fit the clubs new model of buy low - pay low - just say no......And that tongue can lick a full sheet of stamps in one go.

My ideas to generate funds for the club are as follows

We should have a swear box. That would generate funds and save on wages.

Wages and Wags - biggest drain on our resources. Cut wages, ditch wags, its the future!

Breathing - breathing costs money and energy. Cut back breathing and we cut back on costs

Washing the kit - all players should take their own kit home and wash it and all the big shorts should be handed back into the manager before he names the team at the following game.

Tattoo's - All players to be tattooed with advertising so it saves on the leccy on the board round the ground. Plus when they're getting jumped by the Pap's in Cheshire down at their local laundrette washing their kit, they'll be advertising. More wonga!

Grass - tax it

Flood lights - get rid of them, tape torches to everyone's head.

Wages - don't pay them, its that simple

Fans - charge them more

Team bus - change it to a bus


What do ye think RAWK accuntants?.....I'm open to any other suggestions

Head lamps???!! What's wrong with candles I ask you?

Team bus can easily be replaced with a wheel barrow, Skrtel's a strong lad, I'm sure if we don't loan him out he could push it.

[walshys_mullet]

Can i have the summer of 87 back? please, please pretty please? Where we didnt hear about signings until they were done, and we actually went out and bought players for football reasons, i.e trying to bloody win something. Yes we were top dogs, but we were top dogs for a reason, we saw a player and went after him and did what it took to get them.

I want Beardsley, Barnes and Aldo back. Anybody here know a Doctor? Brown or Who will do.