Topic: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table

[Red_Isle_Chap]

Inexperience. That's the thing that's costing us at the moment. From owners down, we're suffereing from inexperience. But it's a learning curve.

If you look at the reports and analysis of that game people are saying that by christ we're shit and Stoke are superb now. It's not the case at all.

How many swallows make a summer? It's certainly not one win at home to a woeful fulham side, but we're so inconsistant as fans these days we seem to struggle to view results with a certain amount of clarity, and i really do include myself in that statement. Take the butchering of Fulham. We destroyed them, but by christ they were shit. The problem is that ever since the media proclaimed that the only reason we twatted Real Madrid in the CL was because they were shit and not that we played them off the park, you're not allowed to say the reason that we twatted Fulham off the park is because they were fucking shit and very, very lazy. We've shown all season that we're not good at handling constant, in your face pressure. Our midfield in any combination this season hasn't coped at all well. Fulham didn't bother, we won 4-0, Stoke did bother, they beat us 3-1

Before i get onto the soapbox about a couple of things I think we should all really understand a couple of things here. We let them back into that game through a physical slip of the foot from Skrtel. After our pen, if we'd seen out 10-15 mins without conceding we've have gotten at least a point from that game. But a simple slip lets them get the first and then some of the most abysmal marking at a corner you'll ever see let them get their second (i'm looking at you Stevie for that one i'm afraid)

But you know what, as fucking dire as we were, we still created enough chances to win that game, let alone draw it. Shelvey played through and should have scored, SUarez played through and should have scored, a bit more in the box cleverness about when to run in on goal and sterling scores from suarez's put through and i'm sure there's a couple more as well. Don't for a second let the shit ton clusterfuck of the reporting let you believe that somehow we've just lost to Stokealona with our impression of liverpool in a fulham kit.

There are for me though, some glaring mistakes. Rogers alluded to the fact that he's already made mistakes this season, well yesterday there were some more, and I hope that he learns from them.
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Mistake 1) Just because Gerrard had a good game playing the deep lying midfielder against a non existant and non pressing fulham does not mean that he will cope with the consistent running and pressure from the Stoke midfield. Gerrard had a fucking mare yesterday because he simply does not have the legs to cope. Sorry, but he doesn't. And we certainly can't allow him to play there next to Lucas while Lucas gets his fitness back. It's got to be Lucas with one of Henderson or Allen and as Allen was being rested it really should have been Henderson. Lots of legs, good engine, can pass, can harry, just would have made sense. I was embarressed for GErrard when he was strolling about, not even looking at play in our own half and the ball hit him on the back. He looked out of sorts and he needs to be freed from that kinda responsibility.

Mistake number 2) You can't play Gerrrard and SHelvey in the same side. I say it pretty much after every game they do and i'm not going to stop now. You can't carry 2 members of the team who have no tactical discipline, especially not down the spine, and neither of them has. Now to be fair to Jonjo he took up some great positions in the first half, some good movement. But to be equally as fair he was woeful with the ball. I would bet my house and my kidneys that if it was Gerrard, not Shelvey who had received the ball from Suso that the onion bag would have been bulging.

Mistake number 3) Taking off Suso. I mean why? He was coping with the Stoke sasquatchs and had grown into the half. Really baffled me the substitution when Jonjo was )sorry) stinking up the joint when on the ball. Jonjo for Henderson, shift Gerrard into Jonjo's role and go from there.

There were more mistakes, but a lot of them could be solved in the transfer window. Yesterday, again, showed that Luis Suarez, for all his genius and brilliance, is not a good number 9 for what we want.  The amount of times balls didn't stick with him again yesterday was criminal. We need to get someone in who can play through the center, hold play up when needs be, and bring others into the attacks. Luis needs to realise (but never will as i think it's instinctive) that one touch layoffs are all well and good ow and again, but trying it every time, just like trying to nutmeg someone every time, isn't the answer. It can be incredibly infuriating at times. That being said at least we've gotten the peno (stonewall) and converted it.

I dunno, there's a lot of doom and gloom to be taken from the match, but i'm trying to not be too down. We had a collective off day but certainly shouldn't have lost that game (at least not in my mind)

Until Rodgers has the time to build a squad of players he thinks are up to the job then we'll be bouncing from result to result like this for a while. I think we're about 3 windows (at least) away from getting anywhere close to anything that Brendan will think is a good enough squad. We've just got to have patience and give him time. Unfortunatly I don't think he'll get it. The number of brainless idiots shouting for managerial change again now is very, very worrying.

We'll see what happens at QPR, and in the upcoming window. I don't think Sturridge will be the answer to our prayers, but I do think that he could do a good job as our number 9.

[Fromola]

We have a hell of a lot of people basing things on the massive assumption that Rodgers system actually works at the level we want to be at. As I said before the game Rodgers system couldn't ask for anything better than playing a big lumbering limited team over the busy Xmas period. Stoke should be ready made for Rodgers system, we should of been able to keep the ball move them around and then win comfortably when they tire. For me it's not about getting in players that suit the system it's about the system only working if teams play like Norwich or Fulham did where they let us make the pitch as big as possible, press in a half arsed way and let us pass through them.

Rodgers system has more holes than a Swiss cheese, work hard and press us high up the pitch or drop off and sucker punch us and we have no answers. We are mid table and Swansea were mid table with players with vastly different abilities to me that hints at the system being mid table. We give away too much with the system we have no element of surprise no tactical variety and no plan B. Teams know how we will setup, how we will try and play and how to stop it. We are playing at a massive advantage. Do we need better players or have we reached the glass ceiling on a system that means we attack packed defences whilst they attack two centre backs one on each side of the pitch with alarming regularity.

We need pace and power right through the middle of our team not more lightweights like Sturridge and Ince until we strengthen the spine teams will continue to roll us over. This time last year Kenny wanted Diame and Jelavic to bolster a team with the best defensive record in the League and a team that was missing chances for fun and hitting the woodwork the way an alcoholic hits the bottle.

How the hell have we regressed so far in such a short time.

I don't care what anyone says about Liverpool being a mid-table team and all the rest of it, Liverpool FC should NEVER be easy to play against. Even if we're not challenging the top 4, nobody should be getting an easy 3 points against us, nobody should be outbattling us and outplaying us the way so many teams have been. The odd off day notwithstanding but this is a regular occurrence now. We're one of the easiest teams in the league to play against when Rodgers came in and talked about how teams would be in for their toughest battle of the season. The odd game aside (like Man City) what a joke that's been.

It's not good enough. Nowhere near.

[YJT]

I was really disappointed yesterday as I was one of those who had to finally admit that we're a mid table team. While I think it's fair to say nearly our whole team played poor I was very concerned about how Brendan set the team up.

We know Stoke like to play direct, we know Stoke like to look for knock-ons. I can't comprehend why then after 5 minutes our CBs are 1v1 with their forwards outside our box. Rodgers said the goal was unlucky. I disagree with that. For me it was just plainly badly defended. Yes it was unlucky that Skrtel slipped but it shouldn't be that we're relying on our players to never make a mistake in order to not concede. Someone should have been covering for him.  I've attached a screenshot of how we were positioned just before the knock on. The easiest option would have been to have a third centre back back to deal with this like quite a few mentioned. Another would have to have Lucas fall deep when their CBs have time and contest the header in order to free up Agger or the full backs tuck in to cover. None of this happened. In fact both Johnson and Enrique were just casually jogging back while the ball was in the air. It is up to Rodgers to ensure we are appropriately prepared for those kind of situations, which against Stoke are likely to happen. Linked to that one would expect it is talked before the match on how to defend corners. Yes it was badly defended by Agger but I'm guessing at least 8 of our players our smaller than Stokes. It was always likely that they would get a header on target which is why I also don't understand why no one was placed on the posts. Johnson was coincidentally near it when it went in but that's just cause his player ran into that area.

I don't mind Rodgers sticking to 'his philosophy' what I do mind though is totally ignoring the opponents. I don't see why we couldn't aim to play our game while making slight adjustments to combat their strengths. I hope Brendan learns from this.

[Aristotle]

I just can't get over this game. Mainly I am left with utter, utter apathy. I hate Stoke undir Tony Pulis to the point of secretely hoping for nuclear annihilation. But what I don't understand is how we reached the polar-opposite of the Everton game. When Everton chose to bypass our midfield we simply took off a midfielder for Coates and it helped swing the momentum in our favour. There Suso gave way for Shelvey as well. But last night, I don't know what the hell was going on. It was dead set from the momentum the equalizer came that Stoke's tactic of long ball to Jones vs. them sprinting studs up to the ball was going to crush us. It was a combination of naivety and stubbornness. You could call it from a mile away what was going to happen and yet we repeated the same mistakes. And this was probably the one game I'd like to have seen Carragher play. Even though Walters spanked him when he last featured, at least he would've fought back when shit hit the fan. A studs up challenge to the knee, written off as good old-fashioned British bulldog mentality.

But to me the biggest dissapointment was Shelvey. How he played, and that Rodgers kept him on. Because I'm a terrible egomanic I'm going to quote myself from previous round-tables. Because again, almost word for word, it's the exact same thing - again.

Shelvey again is equally as puzzling, his movement is so brilliant but his lack of natural athleticism is staggering at times. When Henderson's cross came I was in disbelief he didn't even get in range to slide at it, there were a few moments when defending where he lost the ball because he wasn't quick enough - yet he somehow managed to track back, catch the player and tackle him. So I can't tell if it's inherently physical, if it's a lack of commitment or a bit of both.

*Apply to virtually every scenario where the ball was in Shelvey's radius last night*


Going to trim down from the original post but the story remains the same.

Yet again I am left thinking there's something off with Shelvey. I know we should all get behind the lad and his talent at times shines through but there's something massively off. Shelvey was composed, self-assured, his passing was good, he was taking on players. This was the Udinese & Young Boys Shelvey. The one that scores goals the one that gives you hope someone not named Suarez will score a goal. And then their goal came and "let's fucking do this" Shelvey became "what time's X Factor on" Shelvey. There was one moment where I couldn't believe my eyes and for the first time I really noticed what Yorky has frequently pointed out in regards to Shelvey's athleticism. He had a head start he was running towards the ball as two Anzhi players, they both had time to turn around and casually jog, stripping Shelvey off the ball as he fell down and complained to the ref. He had time to pick up the ball, turn and cross. He did none of it, he couldn't be arsed chasing it and when he did he came up shockingly short. And again I find myself questioning the lad's mentality and drive. He could've done brilliantly but he faded out, he stopped caring and he looked very hurt. If there's choice of betting on players getting carded I'm sure there are a lot of people who put down large sums of money on Shelvey after the hour mark on the 87th minute he didn't dissapoint with a terrible tackle and another 'yeah whatevah' response followed. The type of "fuck off all of you, I know I'm better than you" one would find in abundance in Roy Hodgson's 23 man England squad.

[/snip]
But he didn't care that he'd missed and wasted the last chance of the game. Gerrard would've hung his head. Suarez would've screamed and punched the ground and been furious at himself because he knows he's better than that. Not Shelvey though. He just shrugged it off, convinced no doub that he'll do better next time and if not, there's always another game.

And yet again I reach the same conclusion. Shelvey's apathy always seems to shine through for me. He doesn't get dissapointed and he doesn't seem to care. It's his lack of drive that's shocking. There are characters in this team who have that bit of 'Fuck you I'm X' about them. Reina is a powerhouse, his voice is heard and he's fun to be around. He's also won things, he's made it to the FA and CL finals. He's won penalty shoot-outs on his own. Skrtel and Agger have captained their NTs and LFC. Gerrard and Carragher are local boys, captain and vice-captain, CL winners. Lucas has been through it all but it took him years to have that. Suarez has been working towards it since he was a little kid playing bearfoot in the streets. Yet I get the feeling that Shelvey sees himself in that bracket. Shelvey demands respect, but he hasn't earned it - nor does he seem to want to. He's got it made. He's rich and famous. He's living the dream. And even if he's peaked now, he's got a story to tell and a guaranteed place at an English club for the remaining years of his career. I've said this ever since he got here. Shelvey's a wonderful talent but I think he's one incident away from a transfer request. There's no fear of failure to spur improvement. There's no change in his build (I mean even Suso's bulked up ffs). One the one hand I love that Shelvey told Ferguson to fuck off, on the other I think to myself that there's no holding him back or controlling him. How Shelvey plays more and more seems determined by Shelvey's breakfast than a manager's tactics and man management.

Yet again this uncomfortable gnawing feeling creeps up on me and it's beginning to become a worrying number of times now. There is something missing about Shelvey and I can't really explain what it is, but something tells me that it probably won't ever come out in him.

[Not funny reecehenebry]

I was really disappointed yesterday as I was one of those who had to finally admit that we're a mid table team. While I think it's fair to say nearly our whole team played poor I was very concerned about how Brendan set the team up.

We know Stoke like to play direct, we know Stoke like to look for knock-ons. I can't comprehend why then after 5 minutes our CBs are 1v1 with their forwards outside our box. Rodgers said the goal was unlucky. I disagree with that. For me it was just plainly badly defended. Yes it was unlucky that Skrtel slipped but it shouldn't be that we're relying on our players to never make a mistake in order to not concede. Someone should have been covering for him.  I've attached a screenshot of how we were positioned just before the knock on. The easiest option would have been to have a third centre back back to deal with this like quite a few mentioned. Another would have to have Lucas fall deep when their CBs have time and contest the header in order to free up Agger or the full backs tuck in to cover. None of this happened. In fact both Johnson and Enrique were just casually jogging back while the ball was in the air. It is up to Rodgers to ensure we are appropriately prepared for those kind of situations, which against Stoke are likely to happen. Linked to that one would expect it is talked before the match on how to defend corners. Yes it was badly defended by Agger but I'm guessing at least 8 of our players our smaller than Stokes. It was always likely that they would get a header on target which is why I also don't understand why no one was placed on the posts. Johnson was coincidentally near it when it went in but that's just cause his player ran into that area.

I don't mind Rodgers sticking to 'his philosophy' what I do mind though is totally ignoring the opponents. I don't see why we couldn't aim to play our game while making slight adjustments to combat their strengths. I hope Brendan learns from this.

We have used Lucas in the past against Stoke and Everton to negate this tactic. He was brilliant doing so. Why we didn't do it yesterday I will never know. Also you need someone to pick up the pieces of any stay knock downs ect. Henderson would have been my bet, as he would have matched Stokes energy. Oh and Coates instead of Agger.


I would be against the three at the back against these guys unless we were using Kelly as right back. Against three wingers get plenty of time to cross the ball, something Stoke would have loved.

[MobileBayRed]

Seems like there is a lot of handwringing at the moment over our defensive inconsistancies.  There is some great tactical analysis in this thread and I dont have anything to add, except a question.

Can you honestly say that any of our three goals yesterday were solely down to poor tactics?  Maybe if we were playing with three at the back, we would have had an extra cover for Skrtel when he slipped, but still, if he doesnt slip, that may not be a goal at all.

As for the second goal.  We could have had 5 CBs on the pitch, but if you let a player run unmarked to the near post on a corner, well you get what you deserve.

The third goal was from a throw in and we had plenty of time to set our defense.  Just poor effort by Skrtel.

I just don't see Coates as being an answer.  He has looked shaky to me when he plays.  He gives away too many fouls in bad situations.  His positional awareness is awful.  We have a real problem at CB right now as we only have two players who are playing anywhere near league standards.  As long as Rodgers refuses to play Flannagan or Robinson, we have no depth at any of the back four.  I just don't know if Rodgers feels like he has a team that can play 3 at the back.

[Not funny reecehenebry]

I just can't get over this game. Mainly I am left with utter, utter apathy. I hate Stoke undir Tony Pulis to the point of secretely hoping for nuclear annihilation. But what I don't understand is how we reached the polar-opposite of the Everton game. When Everton chose to bypass our midfield we simply took off a midfielder for Coates and it helped swing the momentum in our favour. There Suso gave way for Shelvey as well. But last night, I don't know what the hell was going on. It was dead set from the momentum the equalizer came that Stoke's tactic of long ball to Jones vs. them sprinting studs up to the ball was going to crush us. It was a combination of naivety and stubbornness. You could call it from a mile away what was going to happen and yet we repeated the same mistakes. And this was probably the one game I'd like to have seen Carragher play. Even though Walters spanked him when he last featured, at least he would've fought back when shit hit the fan. A studs up challenge to the knee, written off as good old-fashioned British bulldog mentality.

But to me the biggest dissapointment was Shelvey. How he played, and that Rodgers kept him on. Because I'm a terrible egomanic I'm going to quote myself from previous round-tables. Because again, almost word for word, it's the exact same thing - again.
*Apply to virtually every scenario where the ball was in Shelvey's radius last night*


Going to trim down from the original post but the story remains the same.
And yet again I reach the same conclusion. Shelvey's apathy always seems to shine through for me. He doesn't get dissapointed and he doesn't seem to care. It's his lack of drive that's shocking. There are characters in this team who have that bit of 'Fuck you I'm X' about them. Reina is a powerhouse, his voice is heard and he's fun to be around. He's also won things, he's made it to the FA and CL finals. He's won penalty shoot-outs on his own. Skrtel and Agger have captained their NTs and LFC. Gerrard and Carragher are local boys, captain and vice-captain, CL winners. Lucas has been through it all but it took him years to have that. Suarez has been working towards it since he was a little kid playing bearfoot in the streets. Yet I get the feeling that Shelvey sees himself in that bracket. Shelvey demands respect, but he hasn't earned it - nor does he seem to want to. He's got it made. He's rich and famous. He's living the dream. And even if he's peaked now, he's got a story to tell and a guaranteed place at an English club for the remaining years of his career. I've said this ever since he got here. Shelvey's a wonderful talent but I think he's one incident away from a transfer request. There's no fear of failure to spur improvement. There's no change in his build (I mean even Suso's bulked up ffs). One the one hand I love that Shelvey told Ferguson to fuck off, on the other I think to myself that there's no holding him back or controlling him. How Shelvey plays more and more seems determined by Shelvey's breakfast than a manager's tactics and man management.

Yet again this uncomfortable gnawing feeling creeps up on me and it's beginning to become a worrying number of times now. There is something missing about Shelvey and I can't really explain what it is, but something tells me that it probably won't ever come out in him.

He needs a demanding manager that never stops. Personnally I think he like Gerrard wants to play central, playing big balls around the park. Watching Gerrard do that even game doesn't help. It's funny, but I always though Rafa was looking for he next Stevie so he could coach him from and early age. He mentioned Stevie when Lucas arrived and Shlevey sees him as his ideal.

I'll tell you what, if Ferguson had him he would use that to good effect. 

[Beav]

Rodgers has a choice.  He can either get the pain out of the way now in the form of tough learning and perhaps weeding out the weak players i.e. those that are not built for this system or he adapts his approach for the short term.  In all honesty, we don't know what he is thinking or what his short-term plan is.  I'd say he is brave and most certainly has the backing of the owners and the players to play in this way when alternatives would yield points. 

I actually believe a season of experimentation may not be a bad thing.  Innovation is not the child of the cautious.

Think this is a great little post Hank.

Many have slated Rodgers, saying he is accepting mediocrity, I think he's the opposite. I think if he went 4-4-2, kept Carroll and tried to play reactivate football I'd be more worried than what I am now.

I think people have to understand that he is learning still. People are bemoaning that he is not a proven coach with a great record. While this is true, it is backwards logic. Managers only become proven by their actions, by a club giving them a chance to make the step up. We aren't a top team, meaning its harder to attract the top managers. How do we get around that, well one way is to take the gamble on a rising manager and bring him in before he makes that step up and is wanted by bigger clubs. You can question the risk of this, but it's a smart way of doing it.

He's learning, the team is learning, our owners are learning, the only way we will reap the benefits of this learning is by sticking with it so those making these mistakes have the time to iron them out and improve on them.

[royhendo]

Worth a read.
http://www.eplindex.com/23959/brendan-rodgers-vision-stoke-3-liverpool-1-analysis.html

[murdell]

I thought Stoke were fantastic, they executed their style of play to a T. We we're rattled couldn't pass it like we did against Fulham because Stoke weren't out for a stroll. I will was saying in the post match thread this style requires much better players than we have, especially in terms of ball retention and intelligence.

Brendan has some massive decisions to make in the Summer if he wants to play this football. I hope he makes them and is given time to do so.

[007.lankyguy]

Did a piece on the game. Mainly talked about us in possession rather than how we dealt with their directness http://lankyguyblog.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/stoke-v-liverpool-analysis.html

 

[Rohit]

Worth a read.
http://www.eplindex.com/23959/brendan-rodgers-vision-stoke-3-liverpool-1-analysis.html

That's a brilliant article.

[sonnyred]

The game was bypassing Shelvey and I was expecting him to be dragged off at half-time. I like Shelvey, but I don't think he has the mobility to play in the hole, I don't think he likes recieving the ball with his back to goal either. He much prefers and is more effective playing deeper and facing the play.

So who have we got who is effective in the hole? I think longer term the position is tailor made for Suso. The kid is hugely talented on the ball, can see an ambitious pass and has the ability to carry it off. His close control and balance reminds me of another left-footer playing somewhere else in the world. But at the moment there is little end product and maybe he's playing wider to gain experience. But I would like to see him in that role sooner rather than later.

We all know how Stoke play, but the shock of seeing them do it with ease was frustrating as hell. The worrying thing is I don't think we have a counter to that style. Luckily we don't play Stoke every week but I'm still a bit worried there seems like nothing we can do however we set the team up to counter styles like that.

I'm convinced we'll have a better 2013. The team is learning and progressing, and the manager is also not the finished article yet, but he's learning and growing into the job. With one or two signings we wont win the league, but I'm convinced we'll shoot up the table and have a great second half to the season.

[Oddball]

Worth a read.
http://www.eplindex.com/23959/brendan-rodgers-vision-stoke-3-liverpool-1-analysis.html

From that mate, this sums it up for me

Where did Rodgers go wrong against Stoke? It’s difficult to know where to begin, It seemed like the Fulham system worked so well that it was given the automatic go ahead for Stoke. The fundamental inefficiencies lie both in the choice of formation to aid the processes and/or the profile of players available to make up the proposed structure.

.

[Beav]

Worth a read.
http://www.eplindex.com/23959/brendan-rodgers-vision-stoke-3-liverpool-1-analysis.html

Another great article from them, that.

[has gone odd]

seriously depressed at how easy we made it for stoke to make us look so bad, i couldnt believe my eyes that this team has sunk to such mediocre levels. yep, we all felt that one!

then theres jonjo being the game's scapegoat it seems, he certainly had a shocker, but he was in good company. why does suarez look like the only player that has any fight in him?

im not a tactitian or armchair manager, i just watch and enjoy. football isnt really rocket science but small details can make a huge difference. therefore why does everyone sit at the game or at home thinking wtf is going on with these subs and formations in almost every game? i dont know what to make of brendan, i like the guy, he suits liverpool but surely its obvious that gerrard needs to be further up the field, that coates needs a few games and some other players dont deserve to be near the pitch at the moment. its just not happening and after the villa game i started to become a little concerned.

there was 1 moment in the first half i couldnt get my head round. the despiration and clumsyness in defence trying to dig the ball to players feet, made me cringe like mad. looked so unnatural and its not the first time this season we looked awkward like that.

not for sacking brendan, anyone who is is a fool, but this season has been abysmal so far and will take some magic to reverse some of the horrid football we've played at times. if he does have a system and gameplan, gets the players he wants and makes it all gel he will be a hero. cos right now its like trying to teach a 3 legged donkey to win the grand national.

[Vulmea]

Watched the game with me dad - it was like synchronised groaning.............

Difficult to discuss our attacking tactics especially 2nd half  but when we were relying on Shelvey, Suso, Sterling, Downing and Cole to work their magic.......I'm not sure what tactics are going to see those lads transform into match winners at Stoke. Having said that I thought we did enough even with those resources merely supporting Gerrard and Suarez to get back on terms.

Their goals yet again straight through the heart of our team - PoP has it spot on split your centre backs, allow your fullbacks to do what they want  and any opposition are just going to walk through you playing 2 upfront - its pretty simple stuff isn't it? We can't handle it, dont look like handing it and wont handle it unless we change.

Its fairly obvious BR has tried to run before he can walk - OK we are trying to play a system we dont have the personnel to play - the idea this teaches those few who'll stay a system is bogus - all it will teach them is negative association - see Allen as a case in point his game has deteriorated.

BR is clever enough to know this, he's also stubborn (substitute believes in himself) or he wouldn't have got to where he is - he will though need to adapt to either 4231 or 3331 or some other combination to shore up our defence if we are to achieve anything this season - at the moment we can't defend against a strong target man or against fast counter attacks - our system is wide open against both. Its just a question of when he changes - if he waits to see it 'click' then it'll be a long wait.

Our mentality remains odd - we didn't give up against Stoke or Villa but nor do we look to have that belief that we can win - its an odd mix - neither one thing or the other like we are holding our breath, giving it a go but knowing its not going to work.

We have some very good players, some promising ones and it must be said we are achieving less than we should be. I fear its being sold to us as a necessary 'transition' when it isn't its simply underachieving. We have made unnecessary mistakes and BR continues to make it harder than it needs to be. The hope continues to be that he will learn, that he is as good as say Rafa pre Valencia, that his ideas have yet to coalese into a workable game plan.

[scottishRED]

We are worryingly weak and inconsistent at the moment, that's for sure.

I don't necessarily blame Rodgers' system for these problems.  4-3-3 is not an outrageous formation to play away from home at Stoke.  With the right players, game intelligence and fluidity, 4-3-3 becomes 4-5-1 or 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-1-2 or a number of other formations as you need it to at any time during a match.

This defeat was not about the system, or the style of play...it was about the 11 players we (Rodgers) put on the pitch and the 11 players that Pulis put on the pitch, and that was our shortcoming more than anything; not the system.

With this in mind, a few thoughts:

** Agger and Skrtel is not a top four defensive partnership for me.  We can defend them by pointing to an occasionally messy midfield in front of them, but I think the spotlight needs to be shone on the partnership too.  Stability starts from the back, and all too often this season they have made careless mistakes or been bullied out of the game by strong, pacy, but not massively skillful, strikers.  Their concentration could be better, but if we're honest with ourselves, we're going to need a new centre-back as almost our next priority (with any luck next summer) after we sort out the issues with the front three in January.

** Moving onto midfield, I have to agree with those who say Gerrard no longer has the legs - certainly not for 2-3 matches in a week.  Why Brendan constantly throws Gerrard into the engine room - the most demanding part of the pitch - is beyond me, especially when it is clear that we're crying out for a player who can finish off chances further up the pitch.

** Lucas, understandably, is going to take some time to get back to top form and fitness.  We may not see the old Lucas until next season, but that's fine - he's worth waiting for and being patient with.  Yesterday was a poor performance from the Brazillian, but I think Rodgers and his team have to take some responsibility for this --- how can Lucas be expected to play so many games in such a short space of time after so long out?  He played 83 minutes against Fulham.  Perhaps the more prudent thing would have been to have rested Lucas for that game with a view to playing away at Stoke?  That would have been a tough call for Rodgers though as, after Villa, we desperately needed a good performance and therefore our best team out against Fulham.  This illustrates again the lack of a back up for Lucas, but to my mind it was not right to start him in two matches in 4 days at this stage of his come-back.

** Shelvey is young and will naturally be inconsistent.  We have to allow him that because he has great potential, and he has to be given chances to develop.  That said,  I agree with all those who wonder whether he should be on the pitch at the same time as Gerrard.  I think it could work in a game we are going to boss (e.g. a home match against Fulham) but, away at Stoke when we need to prioritise being disciplined and solid, is a bizarre time to field the two of them as two thirds of your midfield.  I think it's another example of the grain of overoptimism / overconfidence that has characterised some of Brendan's first 6 months at the club. 

** And then up front, our weaknesses are well known so not worth dwelling on, but I trust we will get a lot closer to fixing them this January.  Ince and Sturridge (+ Borini back from injury) will do just fine - not about to set the world alight, but a big improvement on what we've got right now.

** Coming back to my original point, it's not the system that's at fault.  It's the players and the way we are lining up our 4-3-3 for a lot of these games.  For a tough trip away at Stoke, we should probably have looked to push Enrique forwards to left wing, perhaps ahead of Johnson (or even Agger at left back, with Coates in the centre for extra height), played an energetic and disciplined midfield of Lucas (having been well-rested), Allen and Henderson, and Suarez and Gerrard as the other members of the front three alongside Enrique.  Instead, we go there with Enrique at left back (never ideal when you may be pressed back at times / may not dominate possession), Gerrard and Shelvey in the midfield three, and Suso/Downing as our wingers who might need to get back and defend!  The team selection was just way too attacking and overconfident.

** I like Rodgers.  I like his system.  I like his ideals.  And I think he will (eventually) get this team playing some great football given time.  But I also think he's too optimistic and too passionate at times - particularly right now when the squad is lightweight and we're still developing.  You can see this in the line-ups he selects - which for me is the biggest cause of our woes.  There is no consideration given to stopping the opposition or soaking up their pressure.  There is little or no circumspection / pessimism / conservatism.  We are working on the assumption that we will always control the game and the ball, and we have taken some sound and unnecessary beatings as a result.

** We can (and should) be able to fix this without changing our basic 4-3-3 system.  It's absolutely crucial that this club gets 4-3-3 ingrained into its being from top to bottom.  The players need to get to understand their roles in this system as if it were second nature.  It makes no sense at all to switch to 4-4-2, or 3-5-2 from game to game depending on the opposition.  4-3-3 is sufficiently flexible in itself to allow us to make the adjustments we need.  But Rodgers has to stop dreaming of us always having 60% + possession and passing our way around the opposition, every time we take the field home or away.  We're not at that level yet.  Let's be a little more pragmatic and choose a more defensive/robust starting XI for tough matches, and a more attacking lineup for the games we will boss (at home).  The squad is not perfect right now, but there are enough options there to strike a better attacking/defensive balance than we do right now.

** At the same time as criticising Rodgers for these problems and (IMO) mistakes, I also feel bad for the guy.  He doesn't have the squad he deserves, hasn't had the backing in the transfer market he is going to need, and he is having to work with a set of very error prone players.  Individual errors have cost us more than anything else this season, and I'm not sure that is Brendan's fault.  The players need to take a look at themselves and concentrate a lot harder as well.

[DanA]

I thought it was really naive by Rodgers. All in all I believe in what he's trying to do but he has to be smarter than what he showed against Stoke. It's like he's never been to Britannia before. I'm not saying we should completely move away from the style we are implementing but for this game a bit of tweaking was needed.

The narrowest ground in the league, slippery, wet and windy with a bobbely pitch. It's that way by design to create mistakes just like the one Skrtel made. To go there and setup the way Rodgers did I think was the height of stupidity asking for trouble. To then suggest it was just bad luck...I find that infuriating.

We needed to be playing a formation with Coates in it and step away a bit from the possession style we are trying to implement.

 

[Juan Loco]

The only manager we've had who has won at the Britannia since they were promoted is Kenny. It's interesting that in that game, despite out-playing them, which is par for the course with Stoke, he also selected the biggest line-up we had available. Kelly-Carragher-Coates-Agger along the backline, with Skrtel coming in for Carra at half time. Carroll started up top, Henderson was on the right. Obvious Maxi and Suarez provided a bit of guile, but there was a clear show of respect to the alehouse c*nts in the selection, certainly of the back four.

Anyways... Fuck Stoke. I can't be arsed with writing any more of them. I'm going to do an Ari and quote myself at length.

I fucking hate Stoke.

Usually I just hate them in the build-up and aftermath to us playing them, but take great pleasure in other teams struggling against them. No more. Maybe it's some newly found solidarity from other teams, or maybe it's just after however many years, I resent having to watch Tony Pulis' black arts. Like Sam Allardyce on Red Bull, trying to push the envelope and tour the ugliest back alleys for any way to get through a football match. Maybe each human being has a finite amount of space in their lives they can accept Stoke being part of, and I've exceeded mine. Whatever it is, I fucking hate Stoke.

I fucking hate their alehouse tactics. I fucking hate that a Stoke shirt seems to grant players a certain immunity. I hate that because referees expect Stoke to be overly physical, that seems to allow them - in their own tiny little minds - the excuse for Stoke to be overly physical. I'm sick of their fucking back four, all of whom look like proper Rugby League Town twats, smacking their way around the league. Wilkinson's elbows, Huth's stamp, Ryan Shawcross and his peculiar brand of footballing Jiu-Jitsu. In midfield you've got cynical shites fucking Whitehead, who takes great pleasure in mastering the poorly timed trip, or Charlie Adam who is just tugboat slow and reckless. Top it off with that twat Waters upfront. God I hate him. He's got the face of a badger baiter. Just a horrible, horrible collection players.

It's not a surprise though is it? In Tony Pulis you've got a really vile manager. Him and his stupid fucking baseball cap. All his pundit mates laugh off his teams; "well if you knew Tony as a player you'd know what his teams are like" - there's a fucking reason no one knows what sort of player he was. They simply don't care to remember some lower league yard dog, and cringe that they have to watch a team in his image. I'll give Pulis some credit though, never has a manager captured the essence of a town and it's people so well in how their team plays football than Stoke. He's such a horrible, overly macho twat. The poster boy for British footballing culture, where a dive is sneaky and insidious and thus far worse than breaking a players leg with a horror tackle, elbowing someone in the face or stamping on their chest. The man has managed to usurp Mark Hughes and Sam Allardyce as the Wannabe Alpha of the league.

The fans, in amongst it all, I have some twisted sense of sympathy for. Tony Pulis' own personal Volkssturm of outcasts, trudging along every (other) week out of some misplaced sense of duty. Duty to protect their birth place. All off on a march to their death. A football death. A football death that couldn't be further removed from the one Rodgers speaks of. Off to the windy vortex of misery, void of hope. the great architecture of schadenfreude. "If we can't enjoy football then neither can you". The essence of Stoke.

Stoke. That horrible fucking verb.

1) Stoke.
To remove joy and purpose from the occasion

Tony Pulis was delighted to stoke Liverpool at the football match


Just fuck off, Stoke. Not even down the lower leagues, because if that happens some poor twat will be stuck paying to watch his team run the Stoke gauntlet, being told to 'embrace' the challenge. Nah. Fuck that. Fuck this idea that defeating Dr Pulis' Monster is some kind of footballing achievement. They're removed almost entirely from the sport. Stoke a horrid mixture of shotput, 11 players cynically fouling on rotation, and set pieces. That's the fucking Stoke credo right there. If it's not a set play you can't control what's happening, so you foul, and get another set play.

I'm not against physicality in football. I'm not against the odd bit of cynicism. But I'm not having the defence of Stoke. It's pure anti-football. They routintely turn up to games against any team to make sure the ball is out of play as much as possible. That is not a worthwhile tactic. Wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Fuck off you oatcake munching twats.

Fuck off and die, you Fritzel's dungeon of a football club.

[Bird Bird Bird The Bird Is The Word]

Awful result, awful performance and just an awful game.

Three players stood out for me and one of them didn't even feature in the game. Shelvey, Hendereson and Coates.

I'm really worried that Rodgers has seriously over estimated Shelvey's current ability, especially when it means he's playing the most important role in the team - number 10. The game passed him by yesterday and it was like playing with 10 men, he wasn't affecting the game in attack or defense.

Considering Shelvey's recent form and then Henderson's recent form, it would've made much more sense to start Henderson then push Gerrard further up. Gerrard is closer to goal, closer to dangerous areas and Henderson offers more mobility and energy plus he's been finding goal scoring positions from deep this season too.

Finally the lanky Urugyan who's been a long time absent from our team. Yesterday it seemed like they were targetting Agger with long balls for Jones to try and flick on, it worked a treat and it was a source of havoc all game.

It's very simple but highly effective. Long ball up, win the flick on simultaneously drawing a centre back out of defense, leaving space behind and allowing goal scoring opportunities to develop or gain possession further up the pitch.

With Coates as a third centre back, you can leave him to win headers without having to pull out Skrtel or Agger from the back line. Coates is better aerially than Skrtel and Agger but in the case that Coates loses an aerial duel then you still have a solid defense in behind to fall back on, instead of a pulled apart and confused defense.

We never got into any sort of rhythm of play, that's a typical Stoke game but by not setting up well and not making the right changes, we never gave ourselves a chance, in the end it was actually an easy win for Stoke.

The bigger picture though is this though. Is Rodgers getting the most out of our squad? No, clearly not but is that the priority of this season? No, the priority is to set up a system of play that we can grow from and grow strong from, you only have to look at the summer signings and the names being touted around that the vision is short term pain for long term gain.

At the moment this is how I see it. We are sacrificing getting the most out of the squad in the short term so we can implement a system and a philosophy so in the future we can get the most out of our players. That's why we bought young and why we hired a young promising manager instead of someone older and more experienced.

[John C]

The pre-match arguments that “we should plan our own game and don’t worry about Stoke, its not as if they’re a top club” proved ill-judged, those calling for 3 at the back all week may have been correct after all – I’m not claiming that insight.
Although we had marginally more possession we had no answers against their machine-like tactics. They were a force that our usually fine defence and healing Lucas could not cope with. There were a couple of errors and ‘if onlys’ but we were pretty much second best all over the pitch imo. SG’s strike or Luis’ loop may have pulled one back, but if Shelvey had the control of Suso and the ability to kill a ball he’d have had an easy chance – poor, poor football from him.
We didn’t move the ball quickly enough at times which resulted in the pack hunting us too easily causing a panicked sloppy pass.

But its easy to say “but Stoke away is all ways a hard place to visit, look at their home results”, but it can’t be about Stoke or anyone else anymore, something significant is wrong at the heart of that team.
I commented a few weeks ago about how good the camaraderie looked between the lads, that is tangible, but where is the spirit and more importantly ls where is the technical nous and capability of this expensive group of players. Where’s the leadership?
RAWK and some of the lads on TAW have been too reliant on Lucas coming back and being a significant piece of the jigsaw – we need two Lucas’s now.

If BR is a student of the game how come two of the rudiments are ignored, (1) like having a man on each post during a corner - particularly when there’s a likelihood we won’t win the header. And, (2) ensuring you win the second ball after any header. Stoke set themselves up for fun on occasions.

We’ve reached a point were a PL manager with some perception of football, whatever his style, who has their own armoury of players, whatever their type, can use them against us with good effect. They all plan well ahead against us while we start planning at half time.

I found it annoying when Martin Tyler, who has sadly has turned in to a prick, singled Suso out as “having a hard time”, when he was having no harder a time than the other 10 players wearing Liverpool colours.

Lets not even start thinking about Sunday yet.

I haven't read the thread yet, I'm hoping for some quality inspiration if I get time to read it all.

[John C]

Sorry Roy, but how are we midtable standard? You could put forward a case to say we've got one of the best goalkeepers in the world, one of the best right-backs, one of the best centre-halves, defensive-midfielders, strikers etc. Something doesn't add up. We're certainly not a worse side than Stoke, West Brom or Everton who are all currently outperforming us.

A question I posed in another thread mate. You hear of teams punching above their weight, we are punching well below our financial and technical weight imo.

[RedinExile]

In terms of consistency I'd say yes mate, but only because we're not looking to contain sides like West Brom have so effectively. The balance is ambitious and the setup is ambitious. It's a paradox innit? We'll obliterate sides when it clicks, we'll look worrisome when it doesn't, and only when the players and coaching are both right will the worrisome stuff go. All that, and the gift wrapped goals we're giving up consistently, adds up to a mid table position. But the solutions are basic ones aren't they? Strikers, work, and concentration.

One man's ambition is another's naiveity. At some point the dogmatic pressing ahead regardless with one plan makes you look a fool and pragmatism, and some other alternatives are called for. I used to laugh at some of the bells who would moan at Rafa: 'we don't need all these fucking systems he's trying to be too clever, just play our own game and let them worry about us'. It's not an opinion I've heard expressed for some time in the past three years, wonder why...

You're of the opinion patience will right the wrongs, I hope you're correct but remain unconvinced at this point, as we have set ourselves a mountain to climb when it was hard enough as it was in the beginning.

[Brentieke]

Amidst all the pontificating, talks about how we're in transition and it will take time, the simple truth is the following.

Brendan Rodgers got it absolutely wrong yesterday. You dont need to be an established side, or to have decades of management experience, or to have had years in the Liverpool job, to figure out that Stoke's only tactic all game is going to be hitting the ball long to their target man.

Once you know this, you may perhaps think that it wouldnt be too clever to play the same center back partnership that got dominated by similar target man at West Brom, Everton, West Ham and at Anfield vs Villa.

You'll notice that you have a fantastic defender in the air in Sebastien Coates and use him. It's management one 0 one.

Really, really worried about Rodgers. The more this season has gone on, the more I find myself thinking it's not going to work out for him. I was sceptical in the Summer, but actually got more positive after our first few games- despite the lack of points.

Since then, almost non stop, I think Rodgers is getting things badly wrong. The worrying thing is I think we've actually gone backwards, not forwards, as a team since we beat Norwich 5-2 in the 6th league game of the season. In terms of performances, I think the 3 best of the season have come in the first 6 games and since then there's been very little to shout about.

There's been little evidence of the style of play he keeps banging on about. Against Norwich for example, we had 30 passes move a few times. We killed them with the ball. A few days later vs Udinese, we did the same for 45m. But since then? I've seen extremely few examples of us controlling a game and keeping our foot on the ball.

Add that to the absolute inept squad management he's shown, running the likes of Allen and Sterling into the ground, putting on Carragher constantly, even at defensive midfield at times, not giving Coates any minutes, repeatedly turning to Joe fucking Cole as an impact sub and the awful results we're getting, and it doesnt look good at all.

I dont mind losing at Stoke. It hurts of course, but it's a tough away. It can happen to anyone. What I mind is seeing our managers get the basics so horribly wrong. I mind feeling that the manager is costing the team, not helping it. Playing EXACTLY the same side in 3 days vs Fulham at home and Stoke away, 2 sides that are the complete antithesis of each other, screams to me of a man who is just a bit out of his depth.

No squad rotaition, no squad management, average signings etc... Scary, scary times.

And again...It's got nothing to do with time, or being in transition. Squad management, squad rotation, playing certain players when their strengths are needed against certain teams. It's basic, basic, basic stuff. Extremely worrying that the manager cant figure out how to do it.

[Fat Scouser]

I've been banging on about in another thread. I first said it way back when we played Arsenal, and it's not just me. Loads of us can see it. We can't play the way Brendan wants. If we can see that, then I have no doubt he can. And it's not just the sucker punch.

In the second half against Fulham, Berbatov dropped deeper. We couldn't get the ball back off him and his passing cut us to shreds. If Jol had set up like that from the off, they might have done us. But I think he'd seen the havoc other centre forwards had caused us, and he went for it. But Berbatov doesn't have the pace, so we dealt with it. Once he got a bit more cunning, the wheels came off again.

The problem is easy to see. So therefore, easy to fix. I don't know if Brendan will though. In fact, I think he will carry on pushing our full backs forward and leaving a huge gap between our centre halves. Lucas and Allen can't keep them out when they spring a counter attack. So, why's Brendan refusing to fix it? Well, I can only see one reason. Again, others have already said it. He's trying to take the short cut by insisting on the system. Rather than going for the quick fix. It's brave. I'm not sure it's right, but I'm sure he's not an idiot that can't see it. So, we might aswell get used to it. It's not going to magically disappear.

Make no mistake, Old Happy Harry will have watched our games against Villa. He'll be working on his best way of getting through that gaping hole right now. I can't stand the man, but he's no mug. He works on simple equations, round pegs in round holes, playing a simple game that best suits them. But I don't have enough knowledge on their players to work out which way he'll choose to go. My guess is, if Cisse's moving properly, he'll have him running through the middle with Wright-Phillips running the wings. If not, he'll have Zamora sit a bit deeper and Ji Sung running through the middle. Either way, I know he'll be preparing for us. I don't think we'll be preparing for them though. We'll be working on the formula.

I'm sure that'll get attacked as some sort of treachery. I wish we were beyond bollocks like that. I'm not slatting Brendan. It wouldn't make one iota of difference if I was. But the fact is, I want him to succeed. I want his plan/philosphy to work. I'm not sure if it'll be given the time it needs though if he doesn't shore up that huge gaping hole in our middle. Maybe he needs to be a bit more flexible until we're in a better position to stick to a blue print. It's either very brave or foolhardy. Time will tell.

[Flaccido Dongingo]

We really are atrocious at the moment, seems like an irreversible decline as a team, and as a club, hard to believe we beat Real Madrid 5-0 on aggregate 3 and a half years ago, what concerns me most is not the lack of quality from the team, but the absolute gutlessness of many of the team, Gerrard should be putting a rocket up their arse, you think Souness or Steve McMahon would have accepted their team mates playing without passion or fire?, Souness would have chinned one of them, on the field of play.

You can forgive a lack of quality, as it can be replaced with desire, commitment and will to win, but some of them yesterday couldn't give a flying fuck.

[gorwar61]

The defence was poor yesterday, but the midfield offered no protection at all.  Brendan needs to watch this over and over again, because Villa out fought our defence and so did Stoke, a clear blue print on how to beat us. 

I really fear for us in the second half of the season as it it the simple long ball and big guy up front that does us every time.

[Cpt_Reina]

After Villa I wondered in the round table whether it was Rodgers who we should be looking at for that defeat, or whether we should be casting more of an eye over the players. And their application.

There's no such question with this one.

The lads made mistakes. Agger in particular was pretty woeful. But they were clearly not coached enough with these Stoke tactics in mind.

Rodgers dropped the ball badly on this one. He didn't get the lads in the day before the game to train, madness considering how specialised and predictable Stoke are in their attack. He didnt tailor his line up to counter for those tactics either.

The lads who played against Fulham did well. But Fulham at home and Stoke away are about as different as two fixtures could be. It was extremely naive to keep the same line up. Fulham let us play, they fucking awful. To expect a similar performance against Stoke at the Brittania was foolhardy given how they play, especially at home. It bordered on the arrogant, imho.

Rodgers seemed to think that we could just turn up, play our game, and good would triumph over evil. Well, it didnt. His philosophy barely even scratched Stoke. You can blame individual errors in the defence for the goals conceded. But that doesnt account for how completely devoid of any sort of threat we had going forward.

To blame the defence is a cop out too if you ask me. Perhaps its because the game fell in this busy period in over xmas, but there didnt appear to have been any sort of preparation for what we were going to encounter. It's no secret how Stoke play. You should be able to prepare for it. I didnt look like we did. At all.

I was reminded on Twitter last night about how someone (I forget who) said that Shelvey will become a good player, but they didnt want to have to watch him get there. I cant help but feel the same about Rodgers.

I get the feeling that he'll become a good manager, hopefully a great one. But it's going to hard work watching him learn on the job. He was badly out manoeuvred here and it was really difficult to see him floundering.

But what choice do we have?

If you dont learn for the mistakes of the past you're doomed to repeat them. Seems apt for both us and Brendan that line.

[longtimered]

The tactical points are all valid as are the questions being asked of the manager.The lack of desire and fight is a real worry and we need to pick a team and system that gets the best out of what we have available.Benitez first season is a good example of what I mean.
Separately I dont see any future for Shelvey who lacks the touch and technical ability as well as being in the Harry Kewell class for laziness.

[kkjellquist]

We really are atrocious at the moment, seems like an irreversible decline as a team, and as a club, hard to believe we beat Real Madrid 5-0 on aggregate 3 and a half years ago, what concerns me most is not the lack of quality from the team, but the absolute gutlessness of many of the team, Gerrard should be putting a rocket up their arse, you think Souness or Steve McMahon would have accepted their team mates playing without passion or fire?, Souness would have chinned one of them, on the field of play.

You can forgive a lack of quality, as it can be replaced with desire, commitment and will to win, but some of them yesterday couldn't give a flying fuck.

BR needed to rip the team publicly and throw trash cans in the locker room.  If he thinks now is the time for a quiet talk with a few of the lads I don't know what to say.  He could have pulled Shelvey after 30 mins and nobody would have questioned the decision.  It's early in his LFC career and he needs to started expecting nothing but 100% for every match.  It seems too many of his favorites are sneaking by w/ 90%.

[jaffod]

I'm not going to waffle on and repeat what has already been said in this thread and the post-match thread because it will be futile. instead I'm going to make a couple of observations on what struck me most about last night's match. The first one concerns me greatly and in my opinion is a real cause for concern 5 months into Rodgers' tenure.
 1. Stoke actually out-played us for large periods of the game last night without having to resort to the rough-house tactics we generally accuse them of. They looked more accomplished on the ball and their control of it and ability to pass to a man wearing the same shirt outweighed our ability to do the same.
 2. Rodgers seemed to have stumbled on a position to suit Enrique a few weeks ago. In the games against Wigan and Swansea he was arguably our best attacking player. Why not give him an extended run there and see if he can make that position his own? Instead he has moved him back to LB and we look as fucking toothless up front as we have done all season. I actually think Enrique showed more desire last night than every other one of our players but I still can't fathom why he's been moved back to LB.

[Red_Isle_Chap]

I'm not going to waffle on and repeat what has already been said in this thread and the post-match thread because it will be futile. instead I'm going to make a couple of observations on what struck me most about last night's match. The first one concerns me greatly and in my opinion is a real cause for concern 5 months into Rodgers' tenure.
 1. Stoke actually out-played us for large periods of the game last night without having to resort to the rough-house tactics we generally accuse them of. They looked more accomplished on the ball and their control of it and ability to pass to a man wearing the same shirt outweighed our ability to do the same.
 2. Rodgers seemed to have stumbled on a position to suit Enrique a few weeks ago. In the games against Wigan and Swansea he was arguably our best attacking player. Why not give him an extended run there and see if he can make that position his own? Instead he has moved him back to LB and we look as fucking toothless up front as we have done all season. I actually think Enrique showed more desire last night than every other one of our players but I still can't fathom why he's been moved back to LB.

I think it was because it was either Enrique played at LB or it was Downing. Who would you rather have against the Stoke forwards?

[Anywhichwayicant]

 1. Stoke actually out-played us for large periods of the game last night without having to resort to the rough-house tactics we generally accuse them of. They looked more accomplished on the ball and their control of it and ability to pass to a man wearing the same shirt outweighed our ability to do the same.

Said the same last night, they beat us at 'our game'. They totally deserved their victory, completely outplayed us, and had infinite more fight and spirit about them.

2. Rodgers seemed to have stumbled on a position to suit Enrique a few weeks ago. In the games against Wigan and Swansea he was arguably our best attacking player. Why not give him an extended run there and see if he can make that position his own? Instead he has moved him back to LB and we look as fucking toothless up front as we have done all season. I actually think Enrique showed more desire last night than every other one of our players but I still can't fathom why he's been moved back to LB.

Aye, I thought it strange myself, Enrique was still doing his shift defensively, but was menacing in attack.

[spider-neil]

Worth a read.
http://www.eplindex.com/23959/brendan-rodgers-vision-stoke-3-liverpool-1-analysis.html

Stunning article and I agree with every word.

[jaffod]

I think it was because it was either Enrique played at LB or it was Downing. Who would you rather have against the Stoke forwards?

It was the same against Fulham though. He could even have pushed Johnson over to LB and brought back Wisdom, even though I'm not a great fan of Johnson at LB.

[stockdam]

I still think the biggest thing to show from this match is that our defenders are unable to cope well for 90 minutes with physical strength and intensity - 2 things Stoke have in abundance. We saw it with shipping goals against Everton too, and West Ham and even Villa who simply had a physical forward who we couldn't cope with.

I wouldn't just lay that problem at the feet of the defence/central defence. Agger and Skrtel are not the best in the air but are decent enough. They do need help from others - when we had Carroll he helped out at free-kicks and corners. Our team seems to be full of light and small players who cannot give the extra help that is needed at times.

We need a strong defensive midfielder who can help the defence and we could also do with a tall forward (Sturridge will help the defence on set pieces).

Against Stoke we didn't change anything and that just played right into their predicable tactics. Poor management in my opinion that was easily exposed.

[Jimmy Davies]

I'd also like to add the point that, while Rafa was often criticised for his rotation policy, he did so not just to keep his players fresh, but to also keep his opponents guessing. I know we're limited in our options at the moment, but that's a lesson Rodgers could learn.

Rafa may have been criticised for his rotation policy, but this was more down to an unwillingness in the media to see how anything rafa could do is better than what they thought was right (Notice rafa and ranieri took a hammering for unnecessary 'tinkering' but fergie simply 'rotates'). Rotation is a necessary component of modern day football and all successful teams need it. Thats the end of it all

[Gnurglan]

So, my question here is "Will Daniel Sturridge help us improve in both boxes?"

Is he good enough to  not only bag goals when we play at the weekend, but to sufficiently challenge Agger and Skrtel enough during training to help them learn how to deal with big units?

He might be good enough to score 10-15 goals for us over a season. He may be able to score even more in the future. Don't think he's the striker we need now though and I don't think he's this challenge for Agger & Co. I'd prefer a more experienced striker who could act as a leader.

My second question is this: "With Jonjo Shelvey and Nuri Sahin unwilling to do the dirty work in midfield, Joe Allen too lightweight and suspect during transitions, and Steven Gerrard both too lazy and positionally slack to bother filling in gaps when we lose the ball, how can we close up the gap in front of the two centre backs and become more effective at winning second balls?"

Is Jordan Henderson good enough defensively to sit in alongside Lucas and use his dynamism to press the ball? Or, do we need to buy a physical specimen to play in that destructor role alongside Lucas? Should we be looking to have a dual-protector partnership in the middle a la Mikel - Ramires / sometimes play, especially as we're encouraging both full-backs to attack? How do we fill this massive gap?

We buy this new player. The backup for Lucas we've been lacking for a very long time. That's it really. Think Hamann, Sissoko or Mascherano. Any player who could do a bit of defensive work.

My third question is a classic - "What do we need to do with Steven Gerrard?"

He's got all the class and ability in the world, but his legs have gone. We can't play him how United play Scholes, because he doesn't have the discipline and our fowards don't retain possession well enough. He can't play as a central midfielder next to Lucas - he's NEVER been able to play that role.

My preference would be to move him forwards, on the right-hand-side. He's a much more effective player than all our other "wingers" at the moment - he could use that role to whip balls in from wide, or to drive in and link up with Suarez like he did with Torres so well from that position.

We play Gerrard higher up. It makes no sense to play him deeper. We could use Allen, Henderson and Sahin in a deeper role. No need, whatsoever, to include Gerrard in that group and certainly not when we're in need for another attacking threat. I don't want him on the right though. I'd prefer the role he had behind Torres.

My final, two-fold question is regarding Brendan Rodgers - "What mistakes are we making regularly, and is there evidence that Rodgers and his team are noticing and working on fixing them? Also, is Rodgers' philosophy hindering our short-term progress by trying to implement style over pragmatism at any cost?"

I'm mixed about this. We need to have some endurance if we are to implement a new style of play. It won't come over night. But we have no stability. We haven't had it this season. And there's also this thing with how to make progress. Sometimes the answer is something you didn't expect. Who would have thought Gerrard behind Torres in a 4-2-3-1 was the way to go? With Kuyt on the wing? I doubt that was the idea we had from the start. Sissoko? And then Mascherano to replace Sissoko? We need to find something that works and then take it from there.
So what do do? I reckon we need to find stability. And for that to happen we need reinforcements. Drop the possession at all cost idea. Keep working on it, but let's take it step by step, let's not think we can be perfect from the start. It's the same with our idea up front. I was very much against the signing of Crouch. Because I don't like that type of striker. But he was bought for a purpose. To allow us to keep the ball higher up the pitch. We need to think the same now. Drop the ideal and improve where we need it the most. Then later on, improve again.

This is why I don't like the idea of signing only Ince and Sturridge in January. We need experienced players. It's all well to sign players for the future, but it's also a luxuary to think it can happen at the expense of the here and now. It's the same with our style of play.

[BreakfastPercy]

Some great analysis from here and elsewhere.

Boils down to this (in my opinion):

-We have 5-8 more points, we go 3 at the back with Coates
-We have a manager who's had more time with his team and system, we go 3 at the back with Coates
-Any of our 3 at the back experiments go a little better, we go 3 at the back with Coates
-We don't batter Fulham, we go 3 at the back with Coates
-Our manager has unflinching faith in his own judgement (disadvantage of a young manager growing into his role), we go 3 at the back with Coates

And all of the above give us a better chance of winning this one particular match.

Through and through we're the young wimpy kid who gets held up by his ankles and shaken down for his change and it'll be that way for a while longer. Saturday was sleazy Uncle Tony molesting us after Christmas dinner; cue self harm. Fortunately in all the films I've seen it's the wimpy kid that wins out in the end...