Topic: Financial Fair Play - developments in here

[Zlen]

What Richard Masters said in the Parliament today is really interesting.

This about aligning more with UEFA?
UEFA rules are more strict than PL ones, so we'll see.
None of this matter though if City question isn't resolved.

[thaddeus]

This about aligning more with UEFA?
UEFA rules are more strict than PL ones, so we'll see.
None of this matter though if City question isn't resolved.

Our family WhatsApp has been buzzing all day with the Blue quarter all over this.  It started with them saying that adopting the UEFA rules is evidence the Premier League's sustainability rules aren't appropriate and that it's therefore unfair to punish clubs based on those rules.  It ended with my dad - a red and a retired accountant - pointing out that Everton would have failed to meet the UEFA requirements in each of the past seven seasons and would need to lose about a quarter of their playing staff to meet it next season.  It's the first thing my dad has posted to the group in about five years and it killed the conversation dead 

If anything the UEFA rules are more protective of the status quo than the Premier League rules.  Overspending by up to £35m/season applies to all clubs - so whether you're Man City or Luton that's an extra big summer signing if you have an owner that will stump up for it.  UEFA pinning it as a proportion of income means the clubs with established larger incomes will consequently always have larger budgets.

[MonsLibpool]

What did he say?

https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/c9787f1e-4748-4c62-a76a-fb70b3a32ae3

- City's case is more complex and will take more time
- Aligning PSR with UEFA's FFP
- Chelsea are still being investigated.

Look at the lady in the Everton shirt sat behind him

[jillcwhomever]

https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/c9787f1e-4748-4c62-a76a-fb70b3a32ae3

Thanks.

[lionel_messias]

The ruling on Man City, when it eventually comes will be the biggest moment in English football since the formation of the Premier League.

What sort of game does the PL want to have in the future? How much financial regulation will we have, and will it be policed effectively? The likes of Newcastle and Villa will be waiting for this verdict, as well as the other 17 clubs of course.

Newcastle holding back on their spending (relatively of course), ironically makes me more confident that City are getting absolutely hammered to shit by the ruling.

Anything else and the PL may as well be broken up, and we all do whatever the hell we want with the Super League or another new league scheme.

[newterp]

I posted it in the Anfield Wrap thread - but the discussion on Profit and Sustainability + the tie in to UEFA was a very very interesting listen.

I'm really intrigued if the rules are truly being enforced, if people are actually worried, and how do you build a winning team without being a high revenue generator (Brighton aside)?

[MonsLibpool]

I posted it in the Anfield Wrap thread - but the discussion on Profit and Sustainability + the tie in to UEFA was a very very interesting listen.

I'm really intrigued if the rules are truly being enforced, if people are actually worried, and how do you build a winning team without being a high revenue generator (Brighton aside)?

You improve your youth team so that you can generate more via sales. That's why United, for example,  have issues with it. They are awful at selling young prospects.

[Kopenhagen]

I posted it in the Anfield Wrap thread - but the discussion on Profit and Sustainability + the tie in to UEFA was a very very interesting listen.

I'm really intrigued if the rules are truly being enforced, if people are actually worried, and how do you build a winning team without being a high revenue generator (Brighton aside)?

You run a proper football operation and stop trying to skip the line with blood money.

[thaddeus]

I posted it in the Anfield Wrap thread - but the discussion on Profit and Sustainability + the tie in to UEFA was a very very interesting listen.

I'm really intrigued if the rules are truly being enforced, if people are actually worried, and how do you build a winning team without being a high revenue generator (Brighton aside)?

Looking domestically I expect Spurs are the poster boys for how UEFA want a club to be ran.  I think they've always been beneath the lower 70% wage:revenue ratio for a decade or more.  A decade in which they've been to a CL final, been in a title race and built one of the most impressive stadiums in Europe.  I know they get mocked with the "Spursy" comments but they've established themselves as contenders for the long-term.

We had a headstart with more of a global following but our revenue pre-FSG wasn't very good.  FSG have grown our revenue massively, improved the stadium (which also equates to further revenue), invested in our training facilities and overseen us winning the biggest trophies in club football.

777 Partners seem to believe Everton are an untapped revenue goldmine.  They may have a point as it seems like Moshiri made no effort whatsoever to improve that part of the club - instead throwing in his and Usmanov's money.

[Chris~]

You improve your youth team so that you can generate more via sales. That's why United, for example,  have issues with it. They are awful at selling young prospects.

It's more because they're terrible at buying players

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

And you wait until and then benefit when some of the big clubs have dips, which always happens unless they're state-funded. Look at some of the clubs over the last decade that would have had European football, or more European football, if Man City weren't in the picture.

[MonsLibpool]

It's more because they're terrible at buying players

Selling well makes a big difference.  Look at Chelsea over the last 10 years.

You can buy poorly but sell well and be fine. You can't be shit at both like United. That's why they had a minor FFP breach recently.

For example, they sold Elanga for £15m which is risible compared to what some youngsters go for.

[Chris~]

Selling well makes a big difference.  Look at Chelsea over the last 10 years.

You can buy poorly but sell well and be fine. You can't be shit at both like United. That's why they had a minor FFP breach recently.

For example, they sold Elanga for £15m which is risible compared to what some youngsters go for.

Chelsea are in trouble trying to keep up with FFP because they've bought terribly. It doesn't matter that they sold youth players for a profit, you'll eventually hit a limit if you continue to buy bad, also means you end up losing acadmey players you moght want to keep or better than what you have. Treating academies solely as a money making exercise for the first team is the wrong approach

[MonsLibpool]

Chelsea are in trouble trying to keep up with FFP because they've bought terribly. It doesn't matter that they sold youth players for a profit, you'll eventually hit a limit if you continue to buy bad, also means you end up losing acadmey players you moght want to keep or better than what you have. Treating academies solely as a money making exercise for the first team is the wrong approach

The last few years have been exaggerated but their ability to get good fees for younger players helped them in the transfer market.

The issue is that they mainly wasted the money. United are shit at both buying and selling which makes you wonder.

[Black Bull Nova]

Chelsea are in trouble trying to keep up with FFP because they've bought terribly. It doesn't matter that they sold youth players for a profit, you'll eventually hit a limit if you continue to buy bad, also means you end up losing acadmey players you moght want to keep or better than what you have. Treating academies solely as a money making exercise for the first team is the wrong approach

Chelsea can dig their way out by selling Gallagher or James, I'm sure Palmer has doubled in value since he arrived as well (albeit he is not a club developed player)


These clubs (including Everton) always have a way out but they choose not to use it. Other clubs use discipline to avoid getting into that situation in the first place.


Funnily enough, the players developed at Chelsea have been better than the players they have spend a fortune on.

[Chris~]

Chelsea can dig their way out by selling Gallagher or James, I'm sure Palmer has doubled in value since he arrived as well (albeit he is not a club developed player)


These clubs (including Everton) always have a way out but they choose not to use it. Other clubs use discipline to avoid getting into that situation in the first place.


Funnily enough, the players developed at Chelsea have been better than the players they have spend a fortune on.

That's a desperate measure rather than a plan though.

The last few years have been exaggerated but their ability to get good fees for younger players helped them in the transfer market.

The issue is that they mainly wasted the money. United are shit at both buying and selling which makes you wonder.

If they weren't terrible at buying they could keep good young players rather than panicking and trying to sell them. Like I said buying bad is the problem and will pretty much always be the problem when it comes to FFP

[Samie]

If FFP is being implemented correctly now then what FSG has done with us is about to pay off.

[So… Howard Philips]

If FFP is being implemented correctly now then what FSG has done with us is about to pay off.

About the same time as they change the rules. Probably.

[MonsLibpool]

That's a desperate measure rather than a plan though.
If they weren't terrible at buying they could keep good young players rather than panicking and trying to sell them. Like I said buying bad is the problem and will pretty much always be the problem when it comes to FFP

But they weren't really panicking before Boehly came in. They could get sizeable fees for the likes of Livramento, Guehi, Abraham... who were surplus to requirements.  They just sell well.

However, they used to money to sign the likes of Lukaku🤣🤣🤣

[thaddeus]

Chelsea can dig their way out by selling Gallagher or James, I'm sure Palmer has doubled in value since he arrived as well (albeit he is not a club developed player)


These clubs (including Everton) always have a way out but they choose not to use it. Other clubs use discipline to avoid getting into that situation in the first place.


Funnily enough, the players developed at Chelsea have been better than the players they have spend a fortune on.

Yes, it's an ongoing mystery to me why they're trawling the world for overpriced young talent when they already have better players in their own academy.  Shiny new toy syndrome, I guess.

[lionel_messias]

If FFP is being implemented correctly now then what FSG has done with us is about to pay off.

Hope so. It would be nice to just be able to concentrate on the actual footy as well. We seem to be nicely sustainable as a club now, whereby if we do well this season, we should have enough in the kitty to buy the players we need to keep up the quality. Klopp helps.

There is a reality where Guardiola is gone and Klopp stays on with his 2.0 Liverpool for a couple of years, we might be really quite bouncing then...

[So… Howard Philips]

Can we change the thread title to - Profitability and sustainability rules?

Can’t criticise the Bitters for their woeful ignorance of the rules if we can’t even use the correct term.

[Mister Flip Flop]

My best guess is we'll see some sort of fudge where "for the good of all clubs and the game" the slate will be wiped clean and there will be "harsh and unprecedented" punishment going forward for clubs that break rules. Everybody will nod their heads and say it's for the best etc... and the City's and Chelsea's of this world will get away scott free.

We'll hear stuff like this is a culture change for the sport and clubs have learnt their lessons and are willing to cooperate 100% with the rules from now on. Sky Sports will champion this narrative and talk about "the best league in the world" doing what's right yet again.

[TomDcs]

Some football finance expert on talkSPORT this morning (who also happened to be a city fan), arguing with Simon Jordan about cities charges. He seems to think that city will successfully fight the fraud based charges, on the basis that it’ll be impossible to prove. I think we will start to see this PR machine crank up to try and support this type of narrative over the coming weeks and months. I’d genuinely be astounded if they don’t get away with anything more than a hefty fine and slap on the wrists.

[The North Bank]

Some football finance expert on talkSPORT this morning (who also happened to be a city fan), arguing with Simon Jordan about cities charges. He seems to think that city will successfully fight the fraud based charges, on the basis that it’ll be impossible to prove. I think we will start to see this PR machine crank up to try and support this type of narrative over the coming weeks and months. I’d genuinely be astounded if they don’t get away with anything more than a hefty fine and slap on the wrists.

Yes, the narrative will be that the premier league exceeded expectations by slapping city with a “whopping” 50m fine, because it was a very difficult case to prove so well done premier league. Good work.

[thaddeus]

Yes, the narrative will be that the premier league exceeded expectations by slapping city with a “whopping” 50m fine, because it was a very difficult case to prove so well done premier league. Good work.

Don't forgot the suspended points penalty should anyone ever be arsed to try and prove they've committed the same offences again in the future!

I expect there will be a lot of pressure from within and outside of the Premier League to not go so hard they scare away states/billionaires that want to come and burn through their money here.  I'd actually be OK with them just being very clear that Man City are guilty and that everything they've achieved was done so by cheating.  Let them keep their unearned pots, we've got plenty of our own already.

[lionel_messias]

My best guess is we'll see some sort of fudge where "for the good of all clubs and the game" the slate will be wiped clean and there will be "harsh and unprecedented" punishment going forward for clubs that break rules. Everybody will nod their heads and say it's for the best etc... and the City's and Chelsea's of this world will get away scott free.

We'll hear stuff like this is a culture change for the sport and clubs have learnt their lessons and are willing to cooperate 100% with the rules from now on. Sky Sports will champion this narrative and talk about "the best league in the world" doing what's right yet again.

I think there is little to no chance of this. Are you telling me we are going to stand for that? Everton? Notts Forrest? Spurs, Villa, Wolves (who sacked a manager as they couldn't spend enough due to P&S rules), United, Arsenal and add all the others in.

To give one example, after Everton were docked their 1st 10 points, there become 0% chance Man City can get away with 115 breaches without severe penalties. We can argue what that might be and some would say a 20-point penalty would be far too lenient, even if it did mean (obvs) another Premier League Champion that season.

City will have to be hit very hard, or the PL itself will be engulfed in a shit storm the likes of which we have not seen.

[Redley]

I do think the Everton and Forest charges make it far more likely that pretty hefty action is taken against Abu Dhabi (and Chelsea). For most of the last decade or so the only teams who have really directly suffered against them have been us and United (in 11/12, obviously not recently!). And if we're being honest....most fanbases think thats really funny, and it doesnt affect them so who cares. Now there's other clubs taking big punishments, its not just one or two fanbases who would be up in arms if they got off with a slap on the wrist.

[jillcwhomever]

Some football finance expert on talkSPORT this morning (who also happened to be a city fan), arguing with Simon Jordan about cities charges. He seems to think that city will successfully fight the fraud based charges, on the basis that it’ll be impossible to prove. I think we will start to see this PR machine crank up to try and support this type of narrative over the coming weeks and months. I’d genuinely be astounded if they don’t get away with anything more than a hefty fine and slap on the wrists.

How many times does this question have to be answered. It's the clubs themselves who will be expecting the Premier League to give them a punishment that fits the crime; if the case is proved they will get the book thrown at them, as there will be no alternative. All this negative stuff that gets constantly sprouted on here is so frustrating especially when people still won't get themselves better informed. Follow journalists like Nick Harris who released yet more stuff yesterday about just how big this story will be, it goes beyond just football.

[Black Bull Nova]

Forensic accounting required, show us your receipts City

[DiggerJohn]

If Uefa rules are stronger than EPL rules how did PSG and Man City get away with it for years in the CL. Can someone explain it to me please??

[reddebs]

If Uefa rules are stronger than EPL rules how did PSG and Man City get away with it for years in the CL. Can someone explain it to me please??

They didn't get away with anything they were found guilty but due to the time constraint CAS reversed the punishment of being thrown out of the CL and they paid a massive fine instead.

[Statto Red]

They didn't get away with anything they were found guilty but due to the time constraint CAS reversed the punishment of being thrown out of the CL and they paid a massive fine instead.

Yeah, UEFA have a statue of limitations, so City got off on a technicality after going to CAS,  the premier league don't have any such rules, so can investigate anything as far back as they like.

[Gili Gulu]

Yeah, UEFA have a statue of limitations, so City got off on a technicality after going to CAS,  the premier league don't have any such rules, so can investigate anything as far back as they like.

And all the time they had conclusive proof that they're innocent of any wrong doing.

They're a sportswashing exercise that, strangely, seems to have no interest in producing this evidence that would clear their name and remove this cloud hanging over them.

[owens_2k]

Some football finance expert on talkSPORT this morning (who also happened to be a city fan), arguing with Simon Jordan about cities charges. He seems to think that city will successfully fight the fraud based charges, on the basis that it’ll be impossible to prove. I think we will start to see this PR machine crank up to try and support this type of narrative over the coming weeks and months. I’d genuinely be astounded if they don’t get away with anything more than a hefty fine and slap on the wrists.

That fella is @slbsn on twitter and to be fair to him he's very good. Gives an unbiased view and insight on PSR & FFP affairs.

[DiggerJohn]

They didn't get away with anything they were found guilty but due to the time constraint CAS reversed the punishment of being thrown out of the CL and they paid a massive fine instead.

Thanks for reply. I remember that now CAS over ruled it. Excuse my ignorance but can CAS over turn any EPL fines or punishments too for Everton and Forest

[reddebs]

Thanks for reply. I remember that now CAS over ruled it. Excuse my ignorance but can CAS over turn any EPL fines or punishments too for Everton and Forest

No mate as I understand it there is no appeal other than to the PLs own independent panel like Everton have done with their original 10 point penalty.

[Mister Flip Flop]

I think there is little to no chance of this. Are you telling me we are going to stand for that? Everton? Notts Forrest? Spurs, Villa, Wolves (who sacked a manager as they couldn't spend enough due to P&S rules), United, Arsenal and add all the others in.

To give one example, after Everton were docked their 1st 10 points, there become 0% chance Man City can get away with 115 breaches without severe penalties. We can argue what that might be and some would say a 20-point penalty would be far too lenient, even if it did mean (obvs) another Premier League Champion that season.

City will have to be hit very hard, or the PL itself will be engulfed in a shit storm the likes of which we have not seen.

Don't do it to yourself pal.

We will wake up one Tuesday morning turn on the news and City will have settled the case with the biggest fine ever given to a sporting organisation most of which will go to charity to fluff the bed. There will be outrage from some fans mostly ours as we lost out on the most but others will not care as City's cheating stopped us from winning multiple titles and by Saturday of that week the story will be forgotten.

There is no point comparing Everton or Forest's situation with City's as they haven't the money to grease the correct palms as City do.

[DiggerJohn]

No mate as I understand it there is no appeal other than to the PLs own independent panel like Everton have done with their original 10 point penalty.

Cheers. Reading this thread I don't know what Everton fans have to complain about. Are Forest fans kicking up a stink? I don't really hear as much noise from them. Everton think it's a conspiracy against them.

[jacobs chains]

I do think the Everton and Forest charges make it far more likely that pretty hefty action is taken against Abu Dhabi (and Chelsea). For most of the last decade or so the only teams who have really directly suffered against them have been us and United (in 11/12, obviously not recently!). And if we're being honest....most fanbases think thats really funny, and it doesnt affect them so who cares. Now there's other clubs taking big punishments, its not just one or two fanbases who would be up in arms if they got off with a slap on the wrist.

I'm sorry to break this to you but... Oli won the league.