Topic: Financial Fair Play - developments in here

[Eeyore]

Yes. The sole focus in Europe and the UK on the transfer fee as the highest and most important cost is getting more dated by the year. We're seeing it consistently now where given a choice the player would rather choose to wait out their contract because the transfer fee doesn't benefit them at all. It gives a completely distorted view then of what the clubs actual cost was of acquiring a player with Mbappe's renewal with PSG being the most obscene and recent example.

For us it would be the Thiago signing where the £25m transfer fee is completely dwarfed by the probable £52m contract and then the associated agent fees. But you'll get a bunch of nut jobs screaming about how the club didn't spend anything.

So journalists and us as fans need to do a better job of asking for these aggregates to be broken down. Transfer fees are reported as aggregates in clubs accounts as well but everybody seemingly knows them, why can't the same be true for wages and agent costs?

Lastly, SwissRamble already did a Haaland vs. Nunez cost breakdown based on the reported costs which is also a comparison of our spending vs. ManC's - https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/1537321464537440257?s=20&t=Z27kJgtNyHnsURJMy63eHA

I love you stating the probable £52m contract for Thiago.

You only stated that because you know it is absolute bullshit.

[The North Bank]

The rot set in a long time ago, when wenger had to sell all his best players so Arsenal spend within their means. The whole country was lauding money no object Mourinho and calling Wenger a bottler/whinger/moaner. That was the time to do something about it.

"They have enhancement of performances through financial resources which are unlimited. For me, it's a kind of doping because it's not in any way linked to their resources," the Frenchman added. That was in 2005. The whole country ridiculed him for it, had something got done then there wouldnt be Man city Psg and Newcastle, its too little too late now, the horse has more than bolted. Not one other team or manager backed him up, Arsenal have been found out they said, Chelsea have "raised the bar", the bought the bar, they can do what they want with it, and City just followed the blue print, as will Newcastle now. Wenger's words even now are far too articulate for pretty much all managers, so if someone of his standing and intelligence was told to shut up, there's not much chance of Klopp getting listened to.
And what he wouldve won if it wasnt for financial doping, id say 10 titles between league and CL.

[Skeeve]

Which I acknowledge in the 2nd to last paragraph as being easier to force through due to the breadth with which a managers job and range making it more viable to argue he provided consultancy etc etc

@Egyptian - they could but having been caught out one they would be likely to act in a more reserved manner so as to avoid the fall out in future.

Why would they act in a more reserved manner when they went entirely unpunished for the previous one and ffp has been considerably weakened since then too due to an oil club being in charge of uefa.

[Skeeve]

Lastly, SwissRamble already did a Haaland vs. Nunez cost breakdown based on the reported costs which is also a comparison of our spending vs. ManC's - https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/1537321464537440257?s=20&t=Z27kJgtNyHnsURJMy63eHA

His figures seem quite conservative versions of those being reported as going to both his agent and his dad, it also overlooks the trivial to achieve bonuses that have since been revealed that push his salary vastly higher too.

[Barneylfc∗]

.
'Manchester City ‘can do what they want’ financially despite FFP, Klopp claims':-

Liverpool manager: ‘not possible’ to compete with spending
Klopp also casts doubt on FFP’s impact on state-owned clubs

www.theguardian.com/football/2022/oct/14/jurgen-klopp-liverpool-manchester-city-ffp



'"3 clubs in world football can do what they want financially" - Klopp' - a 6 minute video (the embargoed section of the pre-match conference vs Manchester City):-

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/Xhab3Sa5uDw" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/Xhab3Sa5uDw</a>


^ Klopp on competing with state-owned clubs: “It is not possible. Not possible. It is just clear. There are three clubs in world football who can do what they want financially.”




'Premier League is asked if it has investigated Manchester City owner over Russia allegations':-

Exclusive: UK lawyers acting for Ukrainian activist press football bodies on whether Sheikh Mansour ‘remains a person suitable to be an owner of a club’

www.theguardian.com/football/2022/oct/14/premier-league-is-asked-if-it-has-investigated-manchester-city-owner-over-russia-allegations



'Owner of Manchester City helps usher more Russian tycoons to UAE':-

While Sheikh Mansour has long been involved in cultivating UAE-Russia relations, the importance and complexities of that position have grown since Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, sources say.

www.aljazeera.com/economy/2022/4/28/ownerof-manchester-city-helps-usher-more-russian-tycoons-to-uae

I find it a bit weird everyone tripping over themselves to praise Klopp for 'speaking out' against the oil states.
He hasn't really called them out for me. Merely just said no one else can compete with their spending.

He's quoted as saying what City are doing is really special, and he couldn't respect them any more.

If anything, I'm actually massively disappointed in that.

[jillcwhomever]

Embarassing that Phillipe Auclair is the lone consistent voice on this amongst the English press pack.

I would add the likes of Delaney, Harris and Conn have made regular contributions to this subject. I don't really understand why so many refuse to acknowledge it. We should be backing all these journalists who are prepared to take on the sports washing brigade.

Here is the latest moves at the top of the game by Delaney. Some very disturbing angles in this.

European football’s earthquake is coming - what will it look like after?

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european-super-league-clubs-association-b2202013.html

[duvva 💅]

Anyone else notice in the first half of todays game when Tyler and Neville mentioned Klopps comments about spending, that they actually turned the crowd right up to the V point you couldn’t actually hear what Neville was saying.

Maybe reading too much into it but it definitely felt like a significant and engineered change to the sound.

As a second point as it’s clearly possible it’s be nice if they could drown out the Comms with the crowd every game

[El Lobo]

Anyone else notice in the first half of todays game when Tyler and Neville mentioned Klopps comments about spending, that they actually turned the crowd right up to the V point you couldn’t actually hear what Neville was saying.

Maybe reading too much into it but it definitely felt like a significant and engineered change to the sound.

As a second point as it’s clearly possible it’s be nice if they could drown out the Comms with the crowd every game

Oh they’re all complicit. Money money money. More money in the teams, more money in the league, more money to the broadcasters, more opportunities in the oil states for them.

[damomad]

Neville chose his words carefully, said something along the lines of “Klopp is right but there are also clubs much lower in the league that have the same problem”. Not sure what point he was trying to make other than dodge the question. Neville and Carra really bend over for their paymasters on that station.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

This is probably my pedantry around aspects of my work but we heavily suspect that it will have been hidden or massaged away but we don't know.

We do know from news reports that the agent fees were pushing 80% or something if the transfer fee but it is a world apart from confirmed knowledge of hiding it.

Apologies if I came across incorrectly or too bullishly, I do get overly specific and that when it comes to accounting matters and it probably wasn't in line with the spirit of the conversation

Is why I've always said that HMRC needs to get involved.

[west_london_red]

Is why I've always said that HMRC needs to get involved.

There’s one problem with this, your assuming that the parties involved in this are not paying their taxes. They could all be fiddling FFP but still declaring everything to HMRC, HMRC don’t give a shit about FFP, all they want is their cut.

[decosabute]

The rot set in a long time ago, when wenger had to sell all his best players so Arsenal spend within their means. The whole country was lauding money no object Mourinho and calling Wenger a bottler/whinger/moaner. That was the time to do something about it.

"They have enhancement of performances through financial resources which are unlimited. For me, it's a kind of doping because it's not in any way linked to their resources," the Frenchman added. That was in 2005. The whole country ridiculed him for it, had something got done then there wouldnt be Man city Psg and Newcastle, its too little too late now, the horse has more than bolted. Not one other team or manager backed him up, Arsenal have been found out they said, Chelsea have "raised the bar", the bought the bar, they can do what they want with it, and City just followed the blue print, as will Newcastle now. Wenger's words even now are far too articulate for pretty much all managers, so if someone of his standing and intelligence was told to shut up, there's not much chance of Klopp getting listened to.
And what he wouldve won if it wasnt for financial doping, id say 10 titles between league and CL.

Very true. It's a sad thing that Wenger almost became a joke/sympathy figure by the end. The guy was a genius and far ahead of the curve on this.

Then again, what the fuck is he doing with FIFA now?

[decosabute]

Can the jarg accountants please stop apologising for financially-doped shitbags please? Ta.

[decosabute]

I would add the likes of Delaney, Harris and Conn have made regular contributions to this subject. I don't really understand why so many refuse to acknowledge it. We should be backing all these journalists who are prepared to take on the sports washing brigade.

Here is the latest moves at the top of the game by Delaney. Some very disturbing angles in this.

European football’s earthquake is coming - what will it look like after?

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european-super-league-clubs-association-b2202013.html

It's true that those you mention are brilliant and fighting the good fight, but the problem is, they're literally the only ones. So what's that? Four journalists in a sea of pro-sportswashing shite? I mean, you're right that it's technically incorrect to say that it's just Philippe Auclair, but it sure feels like there's nobody sane out there sometimes, so I understand why people post that way.

[ianburns252]

There’s one problem with this, your assuming that the parties involved in this are not paying their taxes. They could all be fiddling FFP but still declaring everything to HMRC, HMRC don’t give a shit about FFP, all they want is their cut.

There was a similar discussion point in the Ev thread - differentiating between FFP accounting (regulated, and I use that word loosely, by a sporting body and only relevant so far as competition rules to) which is open to manipulation and negotiation, and statutory accounting which had audited figures, regulated by law, and offers less scope for misstatement.

The reporting standards are wildly different and whilst FFP is based on your stat accounts there is also seemingly scope to negotiate with the regulatory body to fudge things through (pay a small fine, reduce your squad by a couple of players but nothing that would cause a club to fold) whereas if a club was found to have filed false account sto Companies House then the auditor is going to be taken to task by the ICAEW and other bodies for not performing their duties, the company would face significant fines and may see directors penalised for falsifying the data (the directors of the company have ultimate responsibility for ensuring the documents filed are accurate and could even be barred from acting in this capacity if the accounts are in breach).

HMRC only get involved if they think the filings for tax are incorrect and honestly the odds of these entities not filing within the rules for HMRC are low. They may take advantage of every available relief and loophole but it will be above board, even if it can be argued that there are moral issues with using these reliefs to reduce tax paid.

No one here thinks City (and other clubs) aren't making a joke of FFP but legally they are more or less within the rules so it reduces scope for them to be taken to task on it.

[oojason]

Nothing will likely happen - but an intriguing point of view...


'Barcelona fans take legal action over Lionel Messi’s transfer to PSG'

Small group of supporters go to court over Messi’s move to Paris
Lawyers argue that transfer broke European laws on state aid

www.theguardian.com/football/2022/oct/18/barcelona-fans-take-legal-action-over-lionel-messis-transfer-to-psg

[BarryCrocker]

Don't want to get all xenophobic but...

KYLIAN MBAPPÉ TO EARN €630M GROSS SALARY AT PSG OVER THREE YEARS

Le Parisien have this evening outlined the details of the contract extension Kylian Mbappé signed with Paris Saint-Germain last May, which consists of a three-year deal that would see him earn €630m in gross salary, the biggest ever handed to a sportsperson.

The French international is reportedly intent on leaving the club already over supposed broken promises over the transfer window and frustration at his role on the pitch, claims which he himself has denied.

The contract he signed – which required the intervention of French president Emmanuel Macron to prise him away from Real Madrid – amounts to the most expensive one ever signed in sports. Mbappé and his team are said to have placed more importance on the club’s project rather than the financial aspect.

The deal consists of two years with an extra season as an option, which can only be triggered by Mbappé himself. It has no performance-related clauses (Champions League or Ballon d’Or bonuses, for instance). He tripled his salary to €6m a month (€2.7m after tax). His signing-on bonus of €180m is payable over three instalments due every July, and Mbappé will receive the full sum even if he leaves early. Added to this will be a loyalty bonus of €70m at the end of the summer should he stay on, increasing by €10m for every season he remains at the club. Overall, the World Cup winner takes home about 45% of the figures in his contract – which takes up a quarter of the club’s budget – after taxes.

https://www.getfootballnewsfrance.com/2022/kylian-mbappe-to-earn-e630m-gross-salary-at-psg-over-three-years/

[TepidT2O]

PSG deny this… but somehow I’m not sure I trust them

[BarryCrocker]

PSG deny this… but somehow I’m not sure I trust them

Case closed.

[lfcred1976]

Nice work if you can get it.

[Tesco tearaway]

Nice work if you can get it.

Players only have a short career so they deserve this sort of money... Apparently 

[JRed]

Don't want to get all xenophobic but...

The Haalands will be reading this with interest.

[TepidT2O]

Juventus may be absolutely fucked here…

https://twitter.com/tariqpanja/status/1584829862673805313?s=61&t=sV4APVsaWac9p3ZuI2L7nA

Being investigated for huge tax fraud

[JRed]

Juventus may be absolutely fucked here…

https://twitter.com/tariqpanja/status/1584829862673805313?s=61&t=sV4APVsaWac9p3ZuI2L7nA

Being investigated for huge tax fraud

Nah, quick trip to CAS and they will be exonerated.

[oojason]

'Al Khelaïfi, investigated':-

Three investigative courts will examine the accusations of kidnapping and torture in Qatar that deal with the president of PSG in 2020.

https://as.com/futbol/internacional/al-khelaifi-investigado-n (translated)


'Three investigative courts in Paris were appointed this Monday to examine the accusations against Nasser Al Khelaïfi of kidnapping and torture by Franco-Algerian lobbyist Tayeb Benabderrahmane, who denounced several months ago having suffered torture in Qatar during the year 2020 , by holding documents that could seriously compromise the president of PSG.

As reported by various French media, including L'Équipe, the businessman filed a complaint with a civil party, for which French law allowed him to have a judicial investigation regarding the crimes of torture and kidnapping that he denounces. His lawyers, Maïtres Romain Ruiz and Gabriel Vejnar, were “very satisfied ” after spending months exposing a situation in which they blamed French justice for slowness and its lack of action.

The content of the information available to Tayeb Benabderrahmane could be an Al-Khelaïfi motive that compromised him regarding the awarding of the World Cup to Qatar or even the awarding of the television rights for the Middle East of the 2026 and 2030 World Cups to BeIN Half. In fact, the Qatari has already been investigated, although he was acquitted, due to his relationship with Jerôme Vackle, formerly of FIFA. Both were suspected of having negotiated the rights behind FIFA's back.'


Fuck all will happen - though this is not surprising news given his past.

[rafathegaffa83]

Times are reporting UEFA want to institute a cap on wages and transfer fees and they're going to present the idea to the EU

[MonsLibpool]

Times are reporting UEFA want to institute a cap on wages and transfer fees and they're going to present the idea to the EU

It's good news for us because of our earning potential.

[No666]

Times are reporting UEFA want to institute a cap on wages and transfer fees and they're going to present the idea to the EU

There's an unpaywalled opportunity to read it here:
https://archive.is/RcqCi

[RedSince86]

FSG are going to love this, right in their ballpark and we could benefit from this, i expect we'll go fully into analytics again buying under the radar signings.

The only thing is the State clubs using their state owned banks to supplement wages bypassing the salary cap.

[MonsLibpool]

FSG are going to love this, right in their ballpark and we could benefit from this, i expect we'll go fully into analytics again buying under the radar signings.

The only thing is the State clubs using their state owned banks to supplement wages bypassing the salary cap.

We don't need to because we'll are one of the richest clubs and things are becoming more revenue-based. There won't be any excuse to not go for the best available players.

[rafathegaffa83]

The only thing is the State clubs using their state owned banks to supplement wages bypassing the salary cap.

Or continuing to wildly inflate their revenues to offer bigger wages. I think this is a good start, but there needs to be watertight controls and tougher penalties inserted into this structure to make it more competitive. Otherwise, it will be very easy for the biggest clubs with the most income in any league to permanently dominate. I think some sort of restrictions on the number of incoming players could also provide some greater sense of balance.

[Machae]

I like the idea in principle, but why is it just footballers where high wages seem to be an issue

Excessive greed in the banking and financial sector, corporate greed, energy firms, tax avoidance, shell companies, music and film industry fees for actors etc where fuck all is done

[WhereAngelsPlay]

All this does is give the owners more cream. It'll also do nothing about clubs who fiddle the books.

[oojason]

.
More about state aid than FFP - though probably still best fits in here...


'Had a tip that Man City & Newcastle are  being looked at by the European Commission for state aid funding, illegal under 2023 legislation that came into force this year. Asked the EC, and they said 'Yeah, we're looking at it.'' - https://twitter.com/sportingintel/status/1695552685041217724


the link to the article above is to a Mail article by (Nick Harris & Alex Miller) so I can't post it here. Twitter thread continues to say...


'The European Commission are also considering whether PSG have breached the new Foreign Subsidies Regulation (FSR), which has recently come into force, over Qatar's bankrolling of PSG.'

'to be honest I don't expect there to be any meaningful consequences for MCFC or NUFC from this. Both have always maintained they have nothing to do with state aid from, respectively, the UAE and Saudi Arabia. But ...'

'It's interesting that the EC are looking at this issue, if "only" to confirm, on the record, that they are engaging with the complaints. State interference *is* a thing in Europe, and therefore state interference in the sports / football industry is a thing.'

[Black Bull Nova]

There's been loads of interesting discussion in different threads about finance and I am grateful for all our finance colleagues for stepping letting us know how some of these things work. Trouble is we have it all spread over different threads, Sportwashing, Chelsea, Everton, City etc who all have issues relating to finance. Just thought it might be useful to have this thread so finance discussions don't get lost in specific team threads.
This will get interesting as time goes on with Everton in October, Chelsea for the next 5 years and City under the spotlight.

I still don't get (or agree with) how player sales allow so much spending and risk creation whilst buying is not treated the same way?
Is there a good source which tells us contract values and actual fees paid (including add-ons)?
Can anyone sum up the Everton position so we know the chances of them being docked in October?

I'm always asking questions so I'll put mine in here so people can find the (usually) excellent answers again.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Good idea, it'd be a decent contender for a pinned topic imo.

[FiSh77]

There's been loads of interesting discussion in different threads about finance and I am grateful for all our finance colleagues for stepping letting us know how some of these things work. Trouble is we have it all spread over different threads, Sportwashing, Chelsea, Everton, City etc who all have issues relating to finance. Just thought it might be useful to have this thread so finance discussions don't get lost in specific team threads.
This will get interesting as time goes on with Everton in October, Chelsea for the next 5 years and City under the spotlight.

I still don't get (or agree with) how player sales allow so much spending and risk creation whilst buying is not treated the same way?
Is there a good source which tells us contract values and actual fees paid (including add-ons)?
Can anyone sum up the Everton position so we know the chances of them being docked in October?

I'm always asking questions so I'll put mine in here so people can find the (usually) excellent answers again.

The Everton situation should be cut and dried, to be honest I've no idea why they had to delay the hearing until October, under the P&S rules you can only make a loss of £105m over a 3 year rolling period, Everton's losses have been well above that even if you take their covid losses at face value, if you bring them in line with the rest of the league then it's even worse, the league needs to take some responsibility to be honest as they should have stepped in years ago and nipped it in the bud instead of allowing them to spunk money like a chav lottery winner

In terms of punishment there's nothing set in the rules, could be docked points, could be no new signings or contracts until they're below the permitted losses, it's clear as mud and there's no precedent to go off

All seems a bit like the premier league not wanting to sully the brand but have been forced into it by some clubs being unhappy with the situation and the talk of an independent regulator

[Draex]

Chelsea signing Palmer for £40mil from City has to be some sort of dodgy FFP circumvention shenanigans.

I reckon we'll see more of this between the sportswashers.

[Black Bull Nova]

This is interesting

Man Utd top league of transfer losses with negative spend of more than £1bn in last decade

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66726456

https://football-observatory.com/MonthlyReport87

In Euros
Manchester United (ENG)

Spend    1'959     Income     563    Net       -1396

Chelsea FC (ENG)
Spend    2'637     Income     1'604    Net       -1033

Paris St-Germain (FRA)


Spend    1'761     Income     751    Net       -1010

Arsenal FC (ENG)

Spend    1'380     Income     509    Net       -871

Manchester City (ENG)

Spend    1'953     Income    1'097    Net       -856

Newcastle United (ENG)

Spend    1'016     Income     345    Net       -671

FC Barcelona (ESP)

Spend    1'779     Income     1'116    Net       -663

Tottenham Hotspur (ENG)

Spend    1'264     Income     655    Net       -609

Milan AC (ITA)

Spend    979     Income     434    Net       -545

West Ham United (ENG)

Spend    1'009     Income     482    Net       -527

Aston Villa (ENG)

Spend    865     Income     383    Net       -482


Liverpool FC (ENG)

Spend    1'355     Income     894    Net       -461

Al-Hilal SFC (KSA)

Spend    477     Income     20    Net       -457

Juventus FC (ITA)

Spend    1'583     Income    1'134    Net       -449

Everton FC (ENG)

Spend    1'028    Income     636    Net       -392

Crystal Palace (ENG)

Spend    519     Income     143    Net       -376

Bournemouth AFC (ENG)

Spend    575     Income     231    Net       -344

Bayern München (GER)

Spend    1'043     Income     700    Net       -343

Real Madrid (ESP)

Spend    1'279     Income     954    Net       -325

Nottingham Forest (ENG)

Spend    486     Income     176    Net       -310

[markmywords]

so manchester united net spend it higher than real madrid, barca and bayern put together

could someone calculate united's champions league haul in the last 10 yrs vs barca (1) real madrid (5) and Bayern (2) my spreadsheet is playing up