Topic: CUP FINAL - Chelsea 2-1 Liverpool: Full time

[TSC]

I replied to you before chief when you said being in a race for the championship left you cold unless you won - winning was the only thing that mattered (presume you mean 89 and 09?). You were just having a little dig about Benitez though weren't you?

No if you were referring to a post from last night which I assume you are I stated our malaise re league titles can be traced back 22 years.  How fuck is that a pop at either Rafa or indeed Evans who also came close?  It's a statement of fact.

Some on here see fuckin conspiracies/sleights on rafa from the most innocuous sources.

[shelovesyou]

See thing is seems some haven't learned from it, others want to do the same thing to Kenny  in some sort of warped revenge idea of getting Rafa back. You learnt from it great, do we need another Roy before the others do?

Dont even go there

[LiverBirdKop]

It'd suggest they had chance after chance, I don't recall many Reina saves or near misses?

True. Think some posters might be a tad influenced by the shite commentators.

[RedinExile]

See thing is seems some haven't learned from it, others want to do the same thing to Kenny  in some sort of warped revenge idea of getting Rafa back. You learnt from it great, do we need another Roy before the others do?

You keep saying this over and over for months, time to name names.

[Fat Scouser]

Other than it being a final, it was just business as usual. It's better in here tonight because the ones who usually throw wobblers are probably out pissed. If it had been a normal league game this would have been 100 pages or so by now. But, for the most part, it's the same old problems we've had all season.

[montysmum]

Today showed many reasons as to why I believe Kenny isn’t the right man. All sentiment to one side today was extremely poor. It hasn’t only been today though, that’s the problem. In Kenny’s autobiography he explains what happens when a manager loses the dressing room. He explains that the players aren’t motivated, aren’t happy with methods and largely lethargic.

Recently this has happened all too much. Stephen Martin said on the day of the Arsenal game that players were arguing with Kenny after the match. Was this the day Kenny lost the dressing room? It seems that way, our league form went completely off the rails from then on.
Results have been awful, simply awful. Barring the win against a weakened Everton side we’ve lost to WBA, Newcastle, Sunderland, all in which were poor performances. WBA was a different story compared to the others but either way, it’s a defeat.

Today proved that Kenny Dalglish isn’t cut out for it. The season has showed one dimensional tactics. There seems to be no variation and no certain urgency to change. Incorrect squad selections and incorrect starting XI’s have happened all too many times. Having a bench with 4 defenders on in a home league game against Fulham just isn’t right. His decisions have been questionable and have very rarely come off on a positive note.

His inability to speak to the media is in my opinion completely out of order. Makes him seem a whingy old man, very similar to whisky nose. It’s rude to consistently try and belittle the media and walk away from them. Although they could of handled the Suarez affair better, Kenny said he will learn from his mistakes and the situation would pan out differently if it was to occur again. It shows he’s not willing to learn from mistakes and it shows in his personality and his decisions.

His signings and consistency persistence of picking overpriced and largely lethargic players over people who want to play for the shirt is damaging the club. Shelvey could do twice the job on a majority of occasions than Jordan Henderson. Maxi or Dirk, even Raheem would have provided more than Stewart Downing has this year.
Unfortunately I believe Kenny is stuck in the past. I love the guy to pieces; he’s a God in my eyes and will continue to be. He’s my hero and will continue to be a club legend but I believe everyone feels the same as me; he needs to go for the benefit of the club. 

All sentiment to one side, what do you guys think?

This is such a load of nonsense I can't really bother to make much of a reply. 

You "love Love the guy to pieces", he's your 'hero'.  Yeah, right, of course he is - it shows.

We're you calling for your hero's head on a plate after Suarez' hat trick last week by any chance?

No?  Didn't think so.  Muppet.!!

[QC]

Actually, I seem to recall having said before that if we win two trophies it would be a success and if we won a single trophy it would have been an average season due to our league form.  The thing is that I don't expect my managers to just get it right first season.  Rafa didn't, Houllier didn't.  We gave them both time and they built towards something.

'Progress' (which is the new buzzword of this forum) is measured by many things.  For me, and you're welcome to disagree, for the most part this season we have played decent, patient football.  We have controlled possession, created chances and looked an improving outfit.  The results haven't backed this up, but I'd be more worried if we had played as we did against Fulham the majority of games this season.  Simply fact is that we haven't played like that.

This season hasn't been great (and I never said it has been).  But it hasn't been "sack the manager after one full season" bad either.

No i agree, we have played well at times; but in the end it's the results that count - and, whilst everyone is entitled to their opinion, various achievements have been used to justify our alleged 'progress'; and these achievements have regressed over the season - moving the goal-posts so to speak.

If you want to highlight the positives of our season, do so; but for the last couple weeks, people were talking as if we had already won the trophy, and the league was being sacrificed accordingly. For me, the league form is indicative of our current crop of players' attitude. It's defeatist. Since the Arsenal loss, it's like we dont care - but there have been a multitude of fucks up from many top 4 contenders, and i feel if our players had continued to take the league seriously - things might not look so glum currently.

You can big up the fact that we reached two finals; but in my opinion, we reached two finals, won one, and threw another away - setting up a goal, but not scoring it, if you will. For all the opportunities we have set up for ourselves this season, in terms of competitions, we have failed to capitalise on just as many - including a near break into the top 4.

My point is, you can't trivialise our inability to finish games/competitions off by repeatedly lowering expectations; we should be up there competing in the first place - this is Liverpool Football club ffs.
 

[Twelfth Man]

People are suggesting the fans should be saying who they want as manager. I'm saying they done that for the last 2, and I don't think it's the fans place. As for forgiving them, well, you're a bigger man than me. I'll never forgive them for gucking this club up the way they did and setting it back years. I'll just keep hoping Kenny can sort it out.

We the fans, are always going to have an opinion on such an important role as manager. FSG need to be above the fans clamour for X as manager and make the right strategic decisions for the club long term. And those fans, even though they were very wrong about 'hounding' out Rafa, had the best interests of our club at heart. They happened to be wrong on that one judgement. Ultimately they did not pull the trigger. They are still LFC fans that love the club. Blame Purslow, blame the cancers but holding a grudge against LFC supporters is wrong. The sacking of Rafa has little bearing on the success of this season. Responsibility for this season lies squarely on The King's broad shoulders. We should be able to discuss that before two meaningless league games.

[mat106]

Other than it being a final, it was just business as usual. It's better in here tonight because the ones who usually throw wobblers are probably out pissed. If it had been a normal league game this would have been 100 pages or so by now. But, for the most part, it's the same old problems we've had all season.

Wait til the morning...

[THE7KING]

True. Think some posters might be a tad influenced by the shite commentators.

The way the commentators were going on was like Chelsea smashed us like Barca smashed Chelsea...Chelsea just have everything go for them at the moment.

Pepe had 3 or 4 saves and conceded 2 typical as the rest of the season.

[Golden_Child]

I don't know if it was Stevie taking it upon himself or whether he was told by the management to sit that deep. Either way the management should've done something about it. There was a point in the first half where he literally tried to take the ball off Skrtel's toes.

Such a waste of both his and Suarez' ability having him back there.

I think stevie took it upon himself to do that to be honest. I could be wrong but surely Kenny wanted him to be the support for Luis. It's the same story with stevie that it always has been when the chips are down, he does what he thinks is best for the team. Occasionally he gets it wrong like today but I don't blame him for it really. Stick masch/Lucas/xabi behind him today and he goes forward more often.

I guess thats the downside of having a club legend playing, he does what he likes. Sometimes it works sometimes it goes badly.

[Ryan M]

Just got home, had a good day despite the reds.

Don't care what people say, from where I was sitting I seen grass between the ball and the goaline! I wouldn't like to to win a cup like that.

Carroll was dangerous when we came on but some players, I think that might be their last games at the club. Andy must play the last two games and hopefully we can sign someone in the summer to compete with him, he's the only centre forward at the club. Suarez does the best of his work outside the box.

Thought Dowd had a good game untill we equalised, was terrible from then on in.

Personally our midfield, considering we spent £13 million on Henderson, £6 Million on Adam & £20 Million on Downing, they lack the quality. Charlie and Jordan are decent squad players but that's it. Downing, fuck me, the lad went missing through large chunks of the match.

Ah well, hope everyone has a safe journey home. Look forward to going to Amsterdam next year for the Europa League Final

[TSC]

Anyway I haven't seen tv coverage but got a text from a mate when I was at the game saying the ball was over the line on that controversial effort.  Was it?

[RedinExile]

No if you were referring to a post from last night which I assume you are I stated our malaise re league titles can be traced back 22 years.  How fuck is that a pop at either Rafa or indeed Evans who also came close?  It's a statement of fact.

Some on here see fuckin conspiracies/sleights on rafa from the most innocuous sources.

Yes, you're wrong. 4 points away is a title challenge. Think you made your mind up as anti Rafa early on. Don't know why to be honest.

Out of Souness, Evans, Houllier, Rafa, Roy and Kenny, maybe as someone who has been quite anti Rafa you can explain to me and everyone else that list and coming 4pnts behind and running it to the wire. Because as you said, winning is everything and 2nd = 18th to you.

[walshys_mullet]

The whole thing was a sham. What's there to be proud of with the second half fight back? Nothing, nothing to be proud of at all. All it says is that we threw away a cup final against opposition who were there for the taking by playing with a bit of fight.

After today im more out of love with this club than I've ever been. The type of mentality we have with the players and management and this whole malaise we are prepared to sit under.

Maybe its time we just accept that this is no longer the Liverpool that once was in a game that's changed for the absolute worst. I fucking hate being tied in to this sport.

[Twelfth Man]

Anyway I haven't seen tv coverage but got a text from a mate when I was at the game saying the ball was over the line on that controversial effort.  Was it?

It may have been, but without technology nobody is to know. So it is a moot point. We were not good enough. That is what we should be discussing.

[kLFCreds]

Anyway I haven't seen tv coverage but got a text from a mate when I was at the game saying the ball was over the line on that controversial effort.  Was it?

Put it this way. Had the scenario been reversed, and Chelsea been awarded the same goal that we were denied, everyone would be crying over how it was not a goal.

[richmiller1]

Didn't we have the best defensive record in the league alongside Man City for a long while? I really, really don't think our defence is anywhere near the priority in terms of new signings. Despite Enrique's dip in form, I'm not that desperate for a new left back and I think you're being unfair on Skrtel there.

It also doesn't help that any mistakes they do happen to make invariably cost us points as our midfield and attack are so incompetent.

Personally, I just think we've looked brittle at the back all seaon, even back when we were conceding fewer. I don't btw way think this is only a probllem affecting us, this has not been a vintage year for defending right across the league, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be looking to improve.

Also, for what its worth my issue with Enrique isn't defensive despite his fall from grace since winter. It is going foward I have the problem. His technique and game intelligence are just woeful. In fact I struggle to recall worse in red shirt in that department.  His physical gifts are there for all to see but he turns every attack he is in the vicinity of to shit and in the process manages to drag those around him down a notch too. For me  he is a key reason downing has been such a disaster (alongside Downing being a complete pussy).

He cost £6m, we would probably get roughly that back for him. His limitations are so obvious letting him go seems a bit of a no brainer given where we are aiming for.

[Fat Scouser]

We the fans, are always going to have an opinion on such an important role as manager. FSG need to be above the fans clamour for X as manager and make the right strategic decisions for the club long term. And those fans, even though they were very wrong about 'hounding' out Rafa, had the best interests of our club at heart. They happened to be wrong on that one judgement. Ultimately they did not pull the trigger. They are still LFC fans that love the club. Blame Purslow, blame the cancers but holding a grudge against LFC supporters is wrong. The sacking of Rafa has little bearing on the success of this season. Responsibility for this season lies squarely on The King's broad shoulders. We should be able to discuss that before two meaningless league games.

This is where you're wrong.... The clue's in the word, Supporter. That's our job. We support. We have discussions amongst ourselves, nothing is sacred. We don't go calling for manager's heads and giving the likes of Purslow the bullets to fire. We don't go screaming who we want installed.

We done that. We helped get a great manager sacked. We helped install a man who wasn't good enough. We shoved him out the door. We brought back a legend. We are now calling for his head. Only mumbles, but it's started. We've stepped out of line. The genies out the bottle. There's no putting it back in. Our support is no different from other clubs now, but that doesn't mean it's right.

[Il Capitano]

His inability to speak to the media is in my opinion completely out of order. Makes him seem a whingy old man, very similar to whisky nose. It’s rude to consistently try and belittle the media and walk away from them. Although they could of handled the Suarez affair better, Kenny said he will learn from his mistakes and the situation would pan out differently if it was to occur again. It shows he’s not willing to learn from mistakes and it shows in his personality and his decisions.

Oh god, shut up. Have you any idea what you're even talking about?

Defending the media in pursuing criticism of Kenny Dalglish. Yeah, I won't be listening to your opinion much longer.

[Fat Scouser]

Wait til the morning...

It won't stop until the summer. Then it'll be the transfer threads. Just the way it is now

[-RedTilDead-]

This is where you're wrong.... The clue's in the word, Supporter. That's our job. We support. We have discussions amongst ourselves, nothing is sacred. We don't go calling for manager's heads and giving the likes of Purslow the bullets to fire. We don't go screaming who we want installed.

We done that. We helped get a great manager sacked. We helped install a man who wasn't good enough. We shoved him out the door. We brought back a legend. We are now calling for his head. Only mumbles, but it's started. We've stepped out of line. The genies out the bottle. There's no putting it back in. Our support is no different from other clubs now, but that doesn't mean it's right.

I see what you mean but is censoring and beating down these rumblings the best way to combat them?

[shelovesyou]

Anyway I haven't seen tv coverage but got a text from a mate when I was at the game saying the ball was over the line on that controversial effort.  Was it?

In hindsight it may well have been, i wasnt convinced, but the ref has to make a call.

[Fat Scouser]

Anyway I haven't seen tv coverage but got a text from a mate when I was at the game saying the ball was over the line on that controversial effort.  Was it?

It was as in and as out as Luis's.

[Twelfth Man]

This is where you're wrong.... The clue's in the word, Supporter. That's our job. We support. We have discussions amongst ourselves, nothing is sacred. We don't go calling for manager's heads and giving the likes of Purslow the bullets to fire. We don't go screaming who we want installed.

We done that. We helped get a great manager sacked. We helped install a man who wasn't good enough. We shoved him out the door. We brought back a legend. We are now calling for his head. Only mumbles, but it's started. We've stepped out of line. The genies out the bottle. There's no putting it back in. Our support is no different from other clubs now, but that doesn't mean it's right.

Fair enough FS. I think we were spoilt with success in the 70s and 80s that is why we put off being like other clubs. Now we are also going through a barren period, not surprising at all that our 'supporters' start acting like 99 per cent of other football fans. If we are to move forward, we need to get past the Rafa blame game.

[Carra23]

Anyway I haven't seen tv coverage but got a text from a mate when I was at the game saying the ball was over the line on that controversial effort.  Was it?

Was curious myself.
Mate sent this too me.

[Fat Scouser]

I see what you mean but is censoring and beating down these rumblings the best way to combat them?

Is calling 606 and TalkShite?

[El Campeador]

But, for the most part, it's the same old problems we've had all season.

Yup.

The present is frustrating, for sure.

[Twelfth Man]

Put it this way. Had the scenario been reversed, and Chelsea been awarded the same goal that we were denied, everyone would be crying over how it was not a goal.

You mean how it was a goal. But fair point. We should not get sidetracked into that debate. We were not good enough. And CFC were hardly great themselves.

[Red_Mist]

Maybe its time we just accept that this is no longer the Liverpool that once was in a game that's changed for the absolute worst.

Guess what...the earth's not flat either.

Did it really take that game to make you realise those two things? We are where we are. Start looking forward instead of throwing in the towel just because it's not going our way.

Have we got the most spoilt fans in football?

[kcbworth]

Put it this way. Had the scenario been reversed, and Chelsea been awarded the same goal that we were denied, everyone would be crying over how it was not a goal.

100% would not have complained if the other team had been awarded that goal. Not for a second. Why? Because there was no doubt imho. Ah well

[Alonso_The_Assassin]

Pretty much let the game pass us by the first 60 minutes. Definitely a "what might have been scenario" with some players feeling they left a bit out there on the pitch. In this arena, you can't leave anything in the locker. It should go without saying.

Carroll was a beast when he came on. For all intents and purposes  he changed the whole complexion of the game. I don't give a toss what anyone says, the ball crossed the line. Maybe it was the football Gods telling us to get fucked squaring up from 04/05 in the CL semi (or so their lot will say, anyway).

Bitter pill to swallow this. Losing to them is pretty fucking demoralising.

[Fat Scouser]

Fair enough FS. I think we were spoilt with success in the 70s and 80s that is why we put off being like other clubs. Now we are also going through a barren period, not surprising at all that our 'supporters' start acting like 99 per cent of other football fans. If we are to move forward, we need to get past the Rafa blame game.

No mate. The game's changed. It's now hyped beyond all reason. It's not the sport of the working class anymore. It's the opium of the masses and a global media entertainment business. If they'd just started out both Shankly and Ferguson would be sacked now. The thing is, the actual game and the time it takes to build a dominant football club/team hasn't changed. It's a society thing. But this is an after match thread, not a debate on today's demands and expectations.

[jah008]

Dalglish got it wrong today tactically and personnel wise.
Whether Carroll's ball crossed the line or what... we didnt deserve anything after that first half.

[Timbo's Goals]

For 60 mins - Chelsea were by far the better least worst of two shite teams.

agreed

[Purple Aki]

Don't like the fact that the ones who think Kenny should go are getting slaughtered on here. If it was anyone else they would be publicly hanged by now. I love Kenny and everything he has done for LFC. But a manager next season? Don't think we would progress any further than a half decent cup team with top 10 ambitions.

[shadowraith]

A slow poor first 60min cost us the game today. I just wonder why sometimes it take us so long to get into game. Downing Henderson and Spearing were not good at all. I'm happy for Andy i felt the second goal was across the line. Another example for goal line tech. Good fight back for 30min but such a slow start was not good enough. Also felt Dirk should have been on earlier.

Sad and disappointed but still proud some how with the fight back. I feel robbed. Well roll onto next season hopefully in the off season we can put the wrongs right with the squad.

[dernaroy]

And this is what is killing me.  I am not beyond criticising the manager, players, poor performances etc.  But the hyperbole in these threads is madness. 2 finals.  One trophy.  And apparently that's not good enough for a first full season as manager.  Some fans are either spoilt or just too used to playing footie manager.

Firstly, I think Kenny deserves more time and I hope he gets the chance to sort things out in the summer.

But secondly, no, 8th in the league (we hope!) and winning the Carling Cup, which lets be honest with ourselves here means next to fuck all, is not good enough for any Liverpool manager in any season. Believing this does not mean that it naturally follows that you have to believe in sacking the manager, you can also believe in being allowed time to get things right and being given a second chance to correct mistakes that you have made, but don't try and tell me this has been anything but a poor season.

[OzAndy_Red]

Obviously disappointed with the result but happy with that last 30 mins.

Lessons there for management. Against the good teams, u cannot play Suarez on his own up front. Becomes far too isolated up front when there's always at least 2 defenders on him. Bellamy has shown he can only be an impact player off the bench.

Easy to say but honestly felt we should've started w/ Carroll. U saw how much more effective both Suarez n Gerrard became once he came on. Great goal n very unlucky with what proved an unbelievable save from Cech.

Hopefully FSG got to see first hand how useless Downing is and that we do have something very special in Carroll. Thought Reina was very soft for the first goal which all started with Spearing gettin turned over in midfield.

Oveall Chelsea have better players than us and played better for longer than us.

So proud to hear the fans belt out Y.N.W.A. at the end of the match when the game was over for us. Amazing support, well done.

[BUSHMILLS]

Guess what...the earth's not flat either.

Did it really take that game to make you realise those two things? We are where we are. Start looking forward instead of throwing in the towel just because it's not going our way.

Have we got the most spoilt fans in football?

Funnily enough, I don't feel particularly "spoilt" right now.