Author Topic: FC Barcelona  (Read 886839 times)

Offline Phil M

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #600 on: June 25, 2013, 03:36:06 pm »
This post really is both completely ignorant and utter bullshit.

It's true to say that if Shankly had told us to invade Poland we'd be queuing up 10 deep all the way from Anfield to the Pier Head.

Offline mabbympb

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #601 on: June 25, 2013, 03:37:54 pm »
Neymar and Messi don't even play in the same position. Apart from free kicks I don't see why there should be a clash. Neymar isn't even close to Messi and even he should know that. The problem I can see isn't Neymar clashing with Messi but him clashing with Barca's football. He'll need to develop his game to accommodate Barca's philosophy, which I don't believe he adheres to right now.

In the same way Alexis and Song dont really fit in at Barca.

Offline RedHopper

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #602 on: June 25, 2013, 04:08:28 pm »
This post really is both completely ignorant and utter bullshit.

You are perfectly entitled to hold your ill informed and incorrect views, but have some manners.

get back in your box phil m

Offline Phil M

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #603 on: June 25, 2013, 04:09:38 pm »
get back in your box phil m

Pardon me?
It's true to say that if Shankly had told us to invade Poland we'd be queuing up 10 deep all the way from Anfield to the Pier Head.

Offline Sir Psycho Sexy

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #604 on: June 25, 2013, 04:11:57 pm »
You are perfectly entitled to hold your ill informed and incorrect views, but have some manners.

get back in your box phil m
Pardon me?

I would honestly let Wijnaldum jizz in my face right now

Offline RedHopper

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #605 on: June 25, 2013, 04:12:20 pm »
I thought I made it sufficiently clear in the past that I'm not interested in receiving your "constructive criticism."

Offline Quaid

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #606 on: June 25, 2013, 04:13:20 pm »
This post really is both completely ignorant and utter bullshit.

I'll be honest, I agree with him to a certain extent. I posted this earlier:

Cruyffs been losing the plot since, well, the day he was born. If Cruyff was a poster on RAWK, he'd be one of the worst going. Over opinionated gobshite.

I've got no idea about the whole pushing people out of Ajax etc. but this guy talks pure shit. I'd honestly class him as worse than Souness.
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Offline Livid

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #607 on: June 25, 2013, 04:16:32 pm »
Too late!  :D
If it bothers you that much that your wife couldn't join the 'Coloured Society', I suggest you divorce your wife and marry a black woman.  Problem solved.

Offline Chakan

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #608 on: June 25, 2013, 04:18:32 pm »
Nice delete Phil ;)

Offline Phil M

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #609 on: June 25, 2013, 04:21:56 pm »
It's true to say that if Shankly had told us to invade Poland we'd be queuing up 10 deep all the way from Anfield to the Pier Head.

Offline Quaid

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #610 on: June 25, 2013, 04:25:23 pm »
get back in your box phil m

Pardon me?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/0sq8VDXlWQk" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/0sq8VDXlWQk</a>
“By definition, you have to live until you die. Better to make that life as complete and enjoyable an experience as possible, in case death is shite, which I suspect it will be.”

Online Hazell

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #611 on: June 25, 2013, 04:34:12 pm »
Id write more but your post is so completely contrary to reality that I really doubt it'd be worth the effort.

I see you've finally met RedHopper then :P
We have to change from doubter to believer. Now.

Offline Chakan

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #612 on: June 25, 2013, 04:35:50 pm »
Id write more but your post is so completely contrary to reality that I really doubt it'd be worth the effort.


Offline RedHopper

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #613 on: June 25, 2013, 04:46:38 pm »
I'll be honest, I agree with him to a certain extent. I posted this earlier:

I've got no idea about the whole pushing people out of Ajax etc. but this guy talks pure shit. I'd honestly class him as worse than Souness.

He launched a campaign against the board and everyone involved in the club in 2011, that lead to the board resigning. he campaigned to have morten Olsen and co adrianse sacked. He insisted that the youth system be completely overhauled, and made more like barcelona. Within months, ajax youth players were mangling barcelona home and away in the Next gen series. The man is a menace. Once he got the board to resign, he refused to take any responsibility, and became a paid consultant for Chivas guadalajara. They later fired him because he wasn't doing anything. He has this bizarre idea of football that doesn't take into account the modern financial realities, or that clubs need to be run on a budget, and within limits.

If Louis Van Gaal said that Ajax should field eleven players in every match, Cruyff would say that it was the ajax tradition to only take to the field with nine players. A great player, but a total lunatic.

Offline RedHopper

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #614 on: June 25, 2013, 05:18:41 pm »
You can draw all of the lines that you want, but that stuff all happened. Van gaal is also a total lunatic, who pulled down his pants in the bayern munich dressing room, pointed to his flaccid penis and said "The football you are playing isn't turning me on". but at least he's got a very good idea how to construct a modern team, and isn't stuck in a golden vision of the team of the seventies. 

Madness, and open warfare against anyone you take a minor dislike to is a crucial part of Dutch footballing culture. it's almost as though everything that they achieve is done to put one over on their rivals.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 05:25:10 pm by RedHopper »

Offline RedHopper

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #615 on: June 25, 2013, 08:41:33 pm »
That's just weird. Why are you taking criticism of cruyff so personally that it causes you just lash out like that? Your love for cruyff,  allows you to accept that the man has some flaws, but not accept that these flaws have any sort of negative impact. These things all happened, and why on earth are you referring to the dream team?  it just shows that if cruyff had enough money, and was in charge of a big enough club, long enough ago, he could put together a team that couldn't really defend. Sure they won four titles, but needed the opposition to screw up on the last day to win two of them, and when confronted by a milan team that was even remotely aware of defending and counter attacking, they were utterly humiliated in the most one sided cl final since milan spanked steaua.

Cruyff really was a beautiful player to watch, but his opinions on football should be accorded the same weight as those of pele or maradona.

Offline Quaid

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #616 on: June 25, 2013, 10:56:59 pm »
Yeah Id class him as the greatest living European footballer, one of the greatest trainers to ever grace the game, definetly the greatest and deepest contemporary thinker and philosopher in the game, both am revolutionary and an innovator,the most vocal proponent of the concept of dominance in football, the main architect and avatar of total football, a visionary in his ideas about youth academies, player development, proper fiscal and wage policy and sound transfer policy and probably overall the single most influential person in the development of football as a sport in modern times.

If you think he talks shit, sure sometimes he does, eerybody does, but even when he is wrong about things in football, he is still infinetly  more right in his wrongness than any 'gobshite' on RAWK.

The guy talks pure shit. Maybe he does it to provoke a reaction from the media and people in the sport, but those comments today about Messi are arguably the stupidest comments I've ever heard from an ex-professional, and I've watched games commented by Ian Dowie and David Pleat.

I'm in no way denying his talent as a footballer; the guy was pure magic. My auld fella tells me all the time how he loved watching Cruyff, seen him many times during the 60's/70's. He preferred Cruyff even more so than Best who he adores, and he laughs when people say Maradona was a better player than Cruyff. You are well within your right to 'class him as the greatest living European footballer'; personally I'd have Zidane (if you can class him as European), Iniesta, Henry and Gerrard over him but I watch, or have watched these guys regularly growing up so I guess it's difficult to compare in that respect. And I know you're a Dutchman like him, and he's seen as a hero in the Netherlands and rightfully so. His philosophical view of the game, and unique look on 'simple' football is fascinating to read and watch in action. But 'definetly the greatest and deepest contemporary thinker and philosopher in the game' is a very bold statement, one which immediately dismisses the work of Bill Shankly, Arrigo Sacchi, Louis van Gaal, Alex Ferguson etc.

But he's not right when he says Barca should sell Messi to accommodate Neymar. Even my 3 year old nephew wouldn't be so daft.

Cruyff stated:
Quote
"Depending on how you view it, it can seem that Messi is a dictator"

Maybe it's because he's the best footballer this planet has ever seen. You build your team around him, because he has that much talent. Perfect example of Cruyff allowing his over-inflated ego get the better of him. And if I remember correctly, Neymar has nothing but glowing praise for Messi, and vice versa. Not sure where he gets the opinion they won't work together, it's quite obviously a match made in heaven.
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Offline telekon

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #617 on: June 25, 2013, 11:41:08 pm »
Because you demonstrate, repeatedly, that your level of knowledge and understanding of the events you refer to, can be, at best, described as casual, facile, trite and vacuous, merely a lazy misinterpretation of reality, or, at worst, just a combination of plain ol' nonsense and sheer ignorance.

That's, a lot, of, commas.
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Offline Anfield Ed

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #618 on: June 26, 2013, 12:10:54 am »
Michels > Cruyff.

Cruyff talks a lot of nonsense, sorry but he does.

His dream team got taught a footballing lesson in Athens in 1994 by a Milan team that was put together by Sacchi.

I would say the greatest living European footballer is Eusebio - if you can class him playing for Portugal as european......

Offline Xxavi

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #619 on: June 26, 2013, 01:50:35 am »
Michels > Cruyff.

Cruyff talks a lot of nonsense, sorry but he does.

His dream team got taught a footballing lesson in Athens in 1994 by a Milan team that was put together by Sacchi.

I would say the greatest living European footballer is Eusebio - if you can class him playing for Portugal as european......
If you'd argue one separate point in your list, may be there'd be a point to debate it with you. But you are clearly very bitter, so no point discussing :D

Still, I will throw it out that 1 game doesn't make or break any manager's career. Even if it is CL final. You win some, you lose some.

Offline Xxavi

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #620 on: June 26, 2013, 01:56:18 am »
As for Cruyff's points, he sounds a bit crazy at times, but at the same time, there's no guarantee that Messi wouldn't want Neymar to be a yes man. Messi of late, I don't know whether it's due to competition with Ronaldo or not, is obsessed with scoring. Long gone are the days when we used to say "Ronaldo scores more but he cannot touch Messi". Now, Messi comfortably outscores Ronaldo. And to do that, Messi became a much less team player. He is not creating chances for a striker to score, he is a striker himself, he wants passes. Great passes. It's no coincidence that he thinks he can yell at Tello, even worse Pedro, and even worse Villa during a televised match. And with all due respect to Messi, these are not mugs, they are fucking world and euro cup winners, and in case of Villa, is even older than him.

There's no guarantee that come next season Neymar wouldn't be yelled at. Neymar has a tendency to do unnecessary stuff, and be selfish, slow down the play. So if Pedro and Villa are to be yelled at, then I think Messi would be justified to pee on Neymar come next season. If we go by the same standards. So it is a concern for me, if these players will get on and off the pitch.

I don't necessarily want Neymar to be a pass man. Pedro plays much better for Spain, he is free to do his stuff. In Barca, he is a safe passer now. I don't want Neymar to be in that category, I want him to create independent of Messi. But it's a concern if he will fit in like Iniesta does to Messi, i.e. both team player yet is brilliantly creative, or will he have problems with Messi and become Alexis Sanchez/Pedro, i.e. safe passer.

Offline RedHopper

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #621 on: June 26, 2013, 11:36:09 am »
I remember hearing much earlier this season that Neymar was a certainty to sign for Barcelona, because Messi was very keen on the whole thing. It was graham hunter I think who was saying that Messi, and neymar had become quite good buddies, through many many hours of playing Xbox live with their mutual friend Danny Alves. If this is true, then it would seem that a lot of these problems about who will be the top dog and who will do what have already been resolved.

As Xxavi points out, messi can actually be a tricky player to play with. In Balague's official biography of guardiola, guardiola says that Messi said that Zlatan could play on the wing, or on the bench, he didn't care, but that if he didn't play in the centre, then he wouldn't play at all. And we've also been treated to the sight of possibly the greatest spanish striker of all time (villa) being pushed on the wing to be part of the supporting cast for messi, and be prone to getting bollockings from Messi if he didn't pass the ball to messi at the right time. If him and neymar are already buddies, then neymar would seem to already know the score, and be most of the way to settling in before kicking a ball.  I mean, lets face it, he's on a different planet to alexis sanchez

Offline Anfield Ed

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #622 on: June 26, 2013, 01:23:21 pm »
What have I got to be bitter about?

It wasn't Cruyff who revolutionised Dutch football it was Rinus Michels.

It was Michels who managed Barca way before Cruyff did and began to turn things around.

It was Michels ideals that Cruyff used to make that Barca dream team and totally overwhelmed the youth system.

Sacchi was and is still one of the greatest football coaches that the game has seen. He took a Milan team that was floundering and mixed Dutch artistry with Italian tactical brilliance to dominate europe. He systematically took Cruyff's Barca apart in that final - and Milan were without two of their best players.

The greatest living european footballer is to my mind Eusebio. That is just a personal opinion.

So what am I bitter about Xxavi?

Offline Quaid

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #623 on: June 26, 2013, 02:01:24 pm »
Well, first of all you have to view his comments yesterday in the context of him being very critical of Barca's profligate spending and him holding the belief that two superstars cannot play together. A view shared by Guardiola and de Boer btw. So if one knows this background and context its very easy to deduce that the "selling Messi" comment isn't meant to be taken literally. Its meant as a critique on Barcelona's transfer policy. He's well entitled to believe that investing 57m euros in a brazilian superstar wunderkind might be a risky proposition, especially when one considers the massive loss Barca made on superstar Zlatan Ibrahimovic. He is Dutch and its well known how ehm lets say frugal and sober the Dutch are moneywise. For me personally, I posted in this very thread that I hope that Messi and Neymar click, as Neymar could be a Garrincha to Messi's Pele but I can very easily imagine a scenario where two superstar ego's collide on the pitch with potentially very bad consequences.

Well, if one is aware of his 'proper fiscal and wage policy and sound transfer policy' then I think it's quite easy to deduce his comments are meant to be taken literally. As regards to Guardiola and his view on superstars, he refers to his time with Zlatan and Messi. Zlatan is well known to be one of the most difficult footballers to manager in the past decade. Of course Messi was never going to get on with him, every team Zlatan plays for he is the main man, the build up play goes through him, the moments of brilliance come from him. This was stifled at Barca due to the combination of the influence Messi had on the entire team, and his personal relationship with Guardiola which was well publicised to have completely broken down by Christmas, 5 months after he signed.

And if anyone knows the background of Neymar as an indivudal, and the relationship he has with Messi, then they'll know he is destined to not only succeed at Barca, but in line with Messi, Cruyff, Iniesta etc. to go on and become one of their all time great players. Somebody posted above that recently Messi has become almost obsessed with scoring goals and this has subsequently affected his assists tally compared with seasons gone by. But he still managed 14 assists last season for Barca, which is an absolutely outrageous statistic to possess alongside the goal tally he managed of 60 goals in all competitions for them. Neymar also manages a very impressive goals to assists ratio of around 4:1 (internationals included), similar to the Messi we seen last season. Anyone who believes these two won't work together is nothing short of delusional. But I wouldn't call Cruyff delusional in the slightest, no, he made those comments because of his over-inflated ego which has time and time again, throughout his footballing career shaped his opinions on players and matters within the sport.

You would have Gerrard and Henry over Cruijff? Really? Fair enough, obviously I disagree vehemently, the gap between Cruijff and these two is immense imho, not to mention the fact I would name about ten players before either Henry or Gerrard that still would not be able to be considered as comparable to Cruijff. I can understand the Iniesta and Zidane shouts tho'.
Bill Shankly passed away so you can remove him from your contemporary list. Sacchi and van Gaal's succes is based on the workmanlike implementation of Cruijffs work, fair enough, and are great trainers and thinkers but not comparable to Cruijff or his overall influence on the game. As for Ferguson, he is not a thinker nor a philosopher and he hasn't really contributed much if anything to the development of football en general in football-technical terms.

Gerrard is clearly a biased choice. He is the most complete footballer I have ever seen, and one who has brought me the most joy down the years. Henry is nothing short of pure genius, and I struggle to see what Cruyff could do which Henry could not in his prime? He possessed a great touch, silky skills to beat multiple defenders, the ability to pick out any pass, unbelievable shot, raw athleticism etc. Portuguese Ronaldo (as much as I can't stand him) was the only other living European based player who I can adamantly place above Cruyff.

The reason I mention Fergie is to open up an entirely different avenue to this whole philosophical side of the game side you speak of. Fergie's coaching methods and technical development with regards to modern football will never be the same as what Cruyff achieved at Barca. But Fergie brought stability to United for two decades, his man-management of players was superb even with his publicised fallouts with Beckham, Ruud, Staam etc. he recycled squads and starting XI's year after year, and won almost every trophy that was there to be won (excluding the Uefa Cup and Fifa World Club trophy, both of which are hardly a stain on his reputation). Cruyff wouldn't know the words stability or longevity if they hit him in the face, his own ego and arrogance forced him out of coaching. As a coach, you can adopt the styles and views of coaches like Cruyff; our very own Rodgers bases much of his coaching methods on that of van Gaal, and therefore indirectly on Cruyffs original coaching methods. But to say Fergie isn't 'a thinker nor a philosopher' is just silly, go and ask any manager in the World who they'd like to emulate, and I'm sure they'll all say the same person. Want to know why? Because Fergie adopted the most important philosophical aspect of football better than anyone else, more important than any coaching method or style of football; the mentality to win, at all costs.
“By definition, you have to live until you die. Better to make that life as complete and enjoyable an experience as possible, in case death is shite, which I suspect it will be.”

Offline Quaid

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #624 on: June 26, 2013, 05:26:16 pm »
Yawn.. Okay great oracle Quaid, you absolute master of comprehension and divination. Rawk is truly blessed to have you to clarify these matters for us mere mortals.

I've watched enough of Barca/Messi and Neymar to arrive at the conclusion that he'll fit into that team perfectly. Doesn't take an oracle, or an arrogant Dutchman to figure that one out.  ;)

Cristiano Ronaldo and Henry better footballers than Cruijff.  ;D Well, that settles that then, for me that removes your credibility completely on the topic of football. You cant see what Henry can't do that Cruijff could do? Really? Well, how sad.

I was asking you a genuine question. You appear to be so in love with Cruyff, I honestly thought we could have a friendly comparison of Henry and Cruyff as I got the impression you've watched a lot more of Cruyff than I have. No doubt bias, and probably incorrect in many peoples eyes, but Henry was another player who I would consider complete, he had everything in his prime.

...and with regards to Ronaldo, maybe not right to claim he is better than Cruyff before his career end, but I'll offer you an insight into some Quaid future-telling; he almost certainly will be once his career is over.  :)

Fergie does not have a philosophical aspect. His philosophy is base, primordial, archaic. He is the Amigdala compared to Cruiffs prefrontal cortex. He is a sad little dictator who has contributed nothing absolutely nothing to the game, no development in either technical or tactical sense. That being said he is a great manager, obviously a great motivator. But I did not call Cruijff a great manager, I called him footballs greatest thinker (In the same way that Edison might have gotten all the plaudits but it was Tesla that was the actual genius) so I don't see the relevance of bringing Fergie up manager does not equal thinker. You can consider Fergie to be the GOAT, if you want to, thats your problem, but even then 'manager' does not equal 'thinker'. As for the will to win being the most important aspect of football, I disagree, but you wouldn't understand that, because for the English this sport is just a sport and not also art, a spectacle to be enjoyed, which is easy to understand as the quality of English football is really really shit. Its just a sport, very little art involved.  The most important aspect is to win in a dominant fashion, with great attractive attacking football. Which is why Ajax of the 70s and this Barca will be remembered always, beloved all over the world, not just because they won things, but because they played beautifully, because they dominated and because they raised the whole of football to another plateau.

 I'm done derailing the thread btw.

And this, where to begin. Not only have you offended me, but most of the other RAWKites and Liverpool fans across the World. Have you ever heard of the term 'winning philosophy'? Unsure how you can consider that as 'primordial'. I agree, Cruyff can arguably be considered the greatest thinker in the modern era, but to argue this is the most important philosophy is laughable. Winning is the most important philosophy to instil into footballers, winning. Doing this through dominating the football match in a way that your opponent fails to retain possession, 'death by football' as Rodgers put it nicely last summer, is a method which helps towards that overall goal of winning.

Quote
As for the will to win being the most important aspect of football, I disagree, but you wouldn't understand that, because for the English this sport is just a sport and not also art, a spectacle to be enjoyed, which is easy to understand as the quality of English football is really really shit. Its just a sport, very little art involved.  The most important aspect is to win in a dominant fashion, with great attractive attacking football. Which is why Ajax of the 70s and this Barca will be remembered always, beloved all over the world, not just because they won things, but because they played beautifully, because they dominated and because they raised the whole of football to another plateau.

The 'quality of English football is really shit', yet you go on to speak about Ajax and Barca. I'm confused, do you mean the quality of English football on the international stage or our domestic football? Because I'm pretty sure the top teams in our Championship (Division 2 effectively) are of a better quality than most of the teams in the Eredivisie. And with regards to our international set-up, don't presume because I'm English I'm happy we sacked one of the best coaches in the World to appoint a distinctly average Englishman. It disgusted me at the time, and still disgusts me now. And even with the mess that is the English FA, England have still produced players which can be considered better than anything the Dutch have produced over the past 20 years (Rooney, Terry, Gerrard, Scholes, Ashley Cole, Wilshere to name a few)

You also forget you're on an independent Liverpool forum, filled with Liverpool fans. Are you honestly trying to tell me you wouldn't class our team of the 70's and 80's alongside that Ajax team of the early 70's? Not even going to mention Barca pre 2005 in the same breath as Liverpool of the 70's and 80's. By all accounts we dominated and conquered Europe with our slick play and excellent passing, but most of all it was the togetherness of the team and the winning mentality which allowed us to do so. That Liverpool team is remembered by everyone as one of the great footballing teams ever, not just of that era.

Do yourself a favour, stop offending Liverpool fans on a Liverpool based forum, and close the door on the way out mate.  :wave
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Offline Juan Loco

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #625 on: June 26, 2013, 07:40:35 pm »
Henry wasn't ever the best player in Europe, never mind close to someone like Cruyff.  He may have been the best footballer in England, but we seem to love him because he said nice things about Liverpool quite often. I won't get on my Henry soapbox again, but y'know, his record in semi-finals and finals (especially in Europe competition) tells a story. Great footballer nonetheless, but you're talking about someone amongst the best of his generation, and one of the best ever. In fact, I'm not even sure Pele or Maradona can match the general impact Cruyff has had on how football is played and spoken about.

The thing that separates Cruyff from what I've seen is the intelligence. I don't actually think he's technically superior to Gerrard, who for all he gets lambasted by men like Saachi, clinging onto their sense of self-importance about how relevant they are (grumble), would strike me as the perfect 'Total Footballer'. But Cruyff's intelligence is different level stuff, let's not kid about. We talk about players who are five yards quicker in the head. Cruyff was about 30 years ahead with some things. He's was doing what Messi does now back in the late 60s. No he didn't score 60 goals in a season, but did any striker drop off into midfield, turn and run at a defence like Cruyff did. Messi's still doing that now. Cruyff is still relevant now.

I mean I get that it's easy not to like him. The Dutch seem to have a habit of not disguising their contempt for something if they don't think it's right. Anyone who has listened to Raymond Verheijen will know that... Now imagine that coupled with someone like Cruyff who usually has got it right. He always reminds me of Richard Dawkins. If you don't like what he has to say he comes across as unbearably obnoxious about it. ... But he's usually pretty on it. He just doesn't shy away from a strong opinion and won't apologise for it. Why the fuck should he? His DNA runs through two of the most successful clubs on the planet, and probably the two most successful at developing players.

Henry don't got that.
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Offline Quaid

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #626 on: June 26, 2013, 10:22:01 pm »
.

Of course he wasn't mate. Cruyff was an outstanding footballer, I've grown up with my auld fella telling me constantly how great Cruyff and Georgie Best were in their day. He used to laugh at people when they stated Maradona was better than Cruyff. But I was trying to get the chap posting above to formulate an argument much the way you have, instead of doing the standard Dutch thing of dismissing other opinions whether they are right or wrong. His arrogance and ego goes hand in hand with his Dutch counterpart.

snip

The term philosophy has been used in many fields, but I found a nice definition for you, 'the most basic beliefs, concepts, and attitudes of an individual or group'. Of course winning can be classed as a philosophy, much the way being successful can. You make out like winning should come second to good football, and that Barca and Ajax would be remembered regardless of whether they won or not. Maybe those living at the time would remember, but failures more often than not get lost in history mate. Cruyff obviously enveloped a winning mentality into his entire playing and managerial career, but for some reason you're struggling to understand this, no doubt because of your typical Dutch arrogance and ego getting in the way.

The Dutch have got an outstanding youth system, no question. However, John Terry is still better than any defender you have produced in the past 2 decades, and Gerrard is the best player produced by either nation over the last 20 years, could even be argued ever. Juan Loco mentions the level of intelligence being the main difference between Cruyff and Gerrard, but he doesn't mention the defensive aspect of his game, something the Dutch fail to appreciate in football, and the fact Gerrard was one of the most athletic players this country has ever seen. That combination makes him the most complete player I've ever seen, this country has ever seen, and quite possibly Europe has ever seen.

Artistry comes second in football, winning and success comes first. It's lovely to talk and view football as an art, but fundamentally it's a sport, and the most important aspect of any professional sport, even more so than enjoyment, is to win. Now run along and smoke your amnesia you crazy Dutchman  :wanker
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 10:23:43 pm by Quaid »
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Offline Mr Dilkington

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #627 on: June 27, 2013, 12:47:12 am »
Comparing Henry and Gerrard to Cruyff is mental.
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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #628 on: June 27, 2013, 12:50:56 am »
Comparing Henry and Gerrard to Cruyff is mental.

the world is full of loonies. it's what makes it interesting.

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #629 on: June 27, 2013, 02:38:33 am »
In Balague's official biography of guardiola, guardiola says ...
Sorry, since when what Balague wrote is official biography of Guardiola?

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #630 on: June 27, 2013, 02:39:35 am »
What have I got to be bitter about?

It wasn't Cruyff who revolutionised Dutch football it was Rinus Michels.

It was Michels who managed Barca way before Cruyff did and began to turn things around.

It was Michels ideals that Cruyff used to make that Barca dream team and totally overwhelmed the youth system.

Sacchi was and is still one of the greatest football coaches that the game has seen. He took a Milan team that was floundering and mixed Dutch artistry with Italian tactical brilliance to dominate europe. He systematically took Cruyff's Barca apart in that final - and Milan were without two of their best players.

The greatest living european footballer is to my mind Eusebio. That is just a personal opinion.

So what am I bitter about Xxavi?
So many wrong "facts" there. Cruyff's Barca lost to Capello's Milan, what they hell are you talking about?

Anyway, don't bother replying. I consider this a lost cause, not worth the debate.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 02:41:49 am by Xxavi »

Offline kaz1983

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #631 on: June 27, 2013, 09:01:56 am »
The Dutch have got an outstanding youth system, no question. However, John Terry is still better than any defender you have produced in the past 2 decades, and Gerrard is the best player produced by either nation over the last 20 years, could even be argued ever. Juan Loco mentions the level of intelligence being the main difference between Cruyff and Gerrard, but he doesn't mention the defensive aspect of his game, something the Dutch fail to appreciate in football, and the fact Gerrard was one of the most athletic players this country has ever seen. That combination makes him the most complete player I've ever seen, this country has ever seen, and quite possibly Europe has ever seen.

Over the last two decades, best defender? Frank de Boer is a better defender than John Terry.

Starts/Goals

1988–1999   Ajax, 328 starts -30 goals - 7.5 million euro transfer to..
1999–2003   Barcelona, 144    starts - 5 goals.
1990–2004   Netherlands, 112 starts - 13 goals.

Frank won the Dutch league five times, Dutch Cup twice, La Liga once, CL once - part of the famous 1995 Ajax squad, UEFA Cup once, Super Cup once.

I'm very confident when I say that F. de Boer is a far better central defender than Terry not to mention footballer in general.  I'd prefer a peak F. de Boer over Terry any day and besides 'who is the better of the two' would depend on a lot of things like - what system are you looking to play? what 'duties' are you asking your center backs to fulfill? ... seeing if your looking to play a more European/Continental 'passing' game then F. de Boer is by far the better defender. You could probably name 20 other defenders produced over the past 2 decades who are a better 'fit' playing that sort of football ... if your playing a more tradition English game, deep defensive line/direct football - 'backs against the wall' stuff, were your center backs stay deep and keep it simple then Terry would be the better central defender of the 2 - for that type of football.... the other option is to pair a more direct and aggressive center back like Terry with someone who is more of a 'ball player' center back but that said the more 'direct/aggressive' CB has to be good on the ball/be able to pick out a short pass but most importantly the 'right' pass -  to a near by team mate and keep the play ticking over. A great example of this are Puyol and Pique but also Terry and Carvalho.

The other thing you said which I don't agree with is ''Gerrard is the best player produced by either nation over the last 20 years, could even be argued ever''

Didn't Rafa teach you anything? .... if we are talking about Gerrard of 2008, then yeah he was pretty damn impressive I agree but that was down to the -system/style play- Rafa put in place and the way he used his players with in said 'system' ... the presence of Alonso and Torres was key as well, they gave Gerrard a platform to shine (Alonso) and a reference point to play off (Torres) but at the end of the day Gerrard has developed into the footballer he is 'DESPITE' the way young footballers are developed in England - the coaching methods/what is valued in this country athletic ability -size/speed, over technical ability -playing 5 vs 5 till they are whilst young ... NOT because of it, what does that mean 'could Gerrard be a better player than he is, if he grew up in Holland as a young boy - with access to far better coaching etc etc'? Or is has Gerrard been such a stand out player in England because he has all the 'athletic' tools to excel in -the fast paced world of English football? Rafa just came a long and harnessed them, made Gerrard realize his potential.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 09:12:39 am by BMW »

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #632 on: June 27, 2013, 09:19:36 am »
Sorry, since when what Balague wrote is official biography of Guardiola?

when guardiola gave him extensive lengthy interviews, and allowed him interview all his assistants, and inner circle, and when Alex Ferguson wrote the preview.

I love the suggestion that cruyff is concerned with the financial stability of Barcelona. He wasn't slow to attack the 'businessmen in suits' in charge of Ajax, who were focussed on balancing the books. Yes they didn't win the title for a number of years, but in that time period,  PSV, Feyenoord, Twente and AZ all spent themselves into virtually bankruptcy. Now his fanboys seem to be taking credit for his revolution leading to titles, when in fact all of their opposition is now bust, while Ajax potter along developing players, and fattening up one or two key players for sale every year, while racking up titles and qualifying for the CL.

I also see that he's claiming that cruyff and his revolution deserves credit for the products of the youth system, even though all of those players were signed and developed by the previous regime. But he seems to like to give cruyff credit for everything. I found the whole cruyff is the prefrontal cortex, ferguson is the amygdala thing hilarious. I'm old enough to remember the dream team losing the 1991 cup winners cup final to a less than dreamy man utd team. I can't imagine anyone describing les sealey, clayton blackmore, brian mcClair and mike phelan as being part of any dream.  I can also remember the enormously tedious 1992 champions league final. For all of cruyff's visionary tactical genius, the only time barcelona remotely looked like scoring in either game was when Koeman trundled up the pitch to take a 30 yard free kick. I'm also old enough to remember barcelona getting fisted without lube by Milan in the 1994 champions league final.

Cruyff wasn't a coaching or tactical visionary, he's a self promoting narcissist, who wants to take sole credit for the whole ajax barcelona axis of play, when most of the credit belongs to Victor Buckingham, rinus Michels, louis van Gaal, and latterly rijkaard and guardiola. Cruyff's expensive dream team was destroyed by milan because cruyff simply didn't understand how to organize a defence. If you listen to his bullshit, you'd think that the 70's ajax was a bunch of glorious ball players who won games purely through continual movement, because that was his side of things. There's no mention of the crucial role played by a solid core of shit-kickers like Vasovic and Hulshoff, who were prepared to dish out the ultra-violence that was an integral part of the game in the 70's, and once the physical battle was won, these players were able to play fantastic football, and tough out a battle 1-0 when necessary. Those european cup finals that ajax won in the seventies were not for the faint hearted.   

When it comes to tactical and technical insight cruyff doesn't even come close to Van Gaal. Cruyff was humiliated by Capello. The next season Van Gaal and his team of children beat milan home, away and in the final without conceding a goal. then they went all the way to the final the following year where they were beaten on penalties by a team so high on drugs that one of the Juventus substitutes spent the entire game standing by the dugout doing big box little box. (though the ajax team of the seventies wouldn't be so pure on that front either, but that was the way back then. Apparently players for a certain team close to our hearts used to get mogadon to help them sleep, and a little pick me up to get them going on the day of the match, but these were the days when you could buy amphetamines across the counter without a prescription, and when most clubs were doing the same thing) 

The Barcelona youth system you see today owes a hell of a lot more to Van Gaal, and his late nineties overhaul than anything cruyff did. they produce players who not only play beautifully, but have a natural understanding of how to defend as a unit. That's a van gaal thing. Cruyff would have you believe that it's a talent thing, but that's because he was a famous player. Van Gaal was a very mediocre player who knew that it came down to hard work, practice and organization.  Now van gaal has sprinkled his magic dust on Bayern, and guardiola is going to step into that job, and kick on from there. In 20 years time people will look at the impact that van gaal had as a coach on ajax, barcelona and bayern, while Cruyff will be remembered an outstanding player, who went on to become one of the more annoying 'mouths' in footballing history.   

Offline kaz1983

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #633 on: June 27, 2013, 09:32:52 am »
-old article, the Fabregas quote - hahaha  ;)

Dutch seeds of Barcelona success ...

Much has been written about Barcelona's brilliant youth development system, with good reason. Today's Barcelona is stocked with homegrown talent, and they have exported some of their most celebrated graduates to teams around the world (Arsenal captain Cesc Fabregas is one of the best known). That development system formed the backbone of Spain's European Championship and World Cup winning side, yet the "Barcelona way" - a style that places a premium on passing, technical excellence and a swarming offense - might not have ever come into being had it not been for a Dutch emigree.

Johan Cruyff was player, manager, and a philosopher for Barcelona. His brilliance on the field and his later insistence on a style of play called "total football" would remake the Catalan club in the 1970s into today's world-beaters.

As a player, he led Barcelona to their first title since 1960, and earned the fans' slavish devotion when he let slip that he chose Barcelona over Real Madrid because of his hatred for dictator Francisco Franco. As manager, he remains the most successful ever at the club, with a record 11 titles to show, and he was also the man who brought greats such as Ronald Koeman, Hristo Stoichkov, Romario, Michael Laudrup and current Barcelona manger, Pep Guardiola, to the forefront.

It is as a theoretician that Cruyff has had the greatest impact. When he helmed Barcelona, Cruyff expanded the work of coach Rinus Michels, taking the 4-3-3 formation that was just coming into vogue (with Manchester United's 1968 European Cup winning side under Matt Busby) and making it a system that afforded every player multiple options and outlets every time they received the ball. The closest American analogue would be Tex Winter's "triangle offense," which Phil Jackson used successfully to steer the Chicago Bulls and Los Angeles Lakers to multiple NBA titles.

It relies heavily on off the ball movement to draw defenders away from the man carrying the ball while allowing the expansion of passing lanes. Every time you see a cutting diagonal ball, thank Cruyff.

To understand how and why Cruyff became so important, you have to flash back to the the 1970s, a time when a football revolution was taking place in Holland. The Dutch came to world notice in two World Cups, first storming West Germany and then showing maturity four years later in Argentina. The common link was the Ajax side put together by Rinus Michels, one that featured Cruyff in his prime.

The style Michels and Cruyff perfected was a complete rethinking of the role of the player in a game that was about to be transformed from its varied nationalistic roots to a global approach. Remember, this was before the era of players moving across borders. Leagues consisted almost exclusively of teams using players from their own country. In Britain, that meant four "nations" contributed to First Division rosters. France, Italy and Spain had experimented loosely with importing players, but in general the "imports" were players who already fit the kind of game the countries' teams played.

Michels determined that the best way to play winning football was to develop generalists instead of position players. He was remarkably astute at recognizing the role pure athleticism could play in transforming the game, light years ahead of his contemporaries.

Cruyff was merely (if can we use such a word to describe a genius) the most essential part. His vision made the Ajax and Holland sides work, but it was the ability of a Johnny Rep or a Wim Van Hanegem or a Robbie Rensinbrink to be able to pop up anywhere on the field and handle not only the ball, but the defensive responsibility that came with that spot on the field which was the necessary accompaniment to Cruyff's ability.

Now, some would argue that Franz Beckenbauer, who emerged in the 1966 World Cup, pioneered this style of play. He was indeed the first true "libero" in football, but the Kaiser did not get his nickname because of his ability to fit into a system - he commanded the system and others had to play around him.

Cruyff, despite his well-reported arrogance, was a player able to slide around the field, find the place to influence the game, then take the cudgel to the opposition. Modern fans might wonder what all the fuss is about. After all, that's Michel Platini, or Diego Maradona, or Zinedine Zidane, or Lionel Messi, isn't it?

Yes, but there were none of those latter players until Ajax became versatile enough so that a player of real creativity could thrive in the system. At the same time that Cruyff and Co. were changing the game in Europe, British writers were lamenting the inability of players like Glenn Hoddle and Frank Worthington to get free reign in England.

The Ajax game, which Cruyff would export and expand upon at Barcelona, actually isn't all that complex. It simply demanded that a player be able to be the left back at one moment, the right back at another, and equally that the same player could function as a winger or an attacking midfielder. In short, everybody had to acquire the technical skills needed to defend and attack, and those skills had to be utilized under pressure.

Did it always work? Of course not. Some of the most memorable moments of Cruyff's Holland-Ajax days are those leaps he took to avoid scything tackles. The fact that he developed the ability to push the ball under the flying feet while simultaneously jumping over them merely was part of the definition of genius.

By the time of the Argentina World Cup (1978), even the most reluctant were willing to admit that Michels' way was the way of the future. By then, although Holland did not win either World Cup, Ajax had taken three European Cups (1971-73), and clever managers the world over were looking for the type of player produced in Amsterdam.

Barcelona did the smart thing. They signed Cruyff in 1973 and hired him as manager in 1988. The rest is history.

http://msn.foxsports.com/foxsoccer/championsleague/story/ucl-final-barcelona-history-johan-cruyff-rinus-michels-dutch-oranje-052511
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 09:43:59 am by BMW »

Offline Quaid

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #634 on: June 27, 2013, 01:49:10 pm »
Comparing Henry and Gerrard to Cruyff is mental.

Delusional shout I know. The other 3 I stand by (Iniesta, Gerrard and Zidane) and to be fair I didn't say they were better players than Cruyff, just who I would personally prefer.

Over the last two decades, best defender? Frank de Boer is a better defender than John Terry.

Starts/Goals

1988–1999   Ajax, 328 starts -30 goals - 7.5 million euro transfer to..
1999–2003   Barcelona, 144    starts - 5 goals.
1990–2004   Netherlands, 112 starts - 13 goals.

Frank won the Dutch league five times, Dutch Cup twice, La Liga once, CL once - part of the famous 1995 Ajax squad, UEFA Cup once, Super Cup once.

I'm very confident when I say that F. de Boer is a far better central defender than Terry not to mention footballer in general.  I'd prefer a peak F. de Boer over Terry any day and besides 'who is the better of the two' would depend on a lot of things like - what system are you looking to play? what 'duties' are you asking your center backs to fulfill? ... seeing if your looking to play a more European/Continental 'passing' game then F. de Boer is by far the better defender. You could probably name 20 other defenders produced over the past 2 decades who are a better 'fit' playing that sort of football ... if your playing a more tradition English game, deep defensive line/direct football - 'backs against the wall' stuff, were your center backs stay deep and keep it simple then Terry would be the better central defender of the 2 - for that type of football.... the other option is to pair a more direct and aggressive center back like Terry with someone who is more of a 'ball player' center back but that said the more 'direct/aggressive' CB has to be good on the ball/be able to pick out a short pass but most importantly the 'right' pass -  to a near by team mate and keep the play ticking over. A great example of this are Puyol and Pique but also Terry and Carvalho.

To put it simply, Frank de Boer is not a better defender than John Terry. I'm not going to list Terry's honours, as what a player has won during their career is irrelevant to this argument.

John Terry is the best defender this country has ever produced behind only the great Bobby Moore. It's laughable you're taking into consideration systems with John Terry, because that's what makes him so special; he can fit into any system. This 'passing game' you speak of is complete nonsense, take a look at the table below which was based on the 2011-2012 season up until January:

Player  Team  Passing Accuracy %  Passes

Leon Britton - Swansea City - 93.3 - 1127

Xavi - Barcelona - 93.0 - 1830

John Terry - Chelsea - 91.6 - 1209

Sergio Busquets - Barcelona - 91.3 - 1086

Thiago Silva - AC Milan - 91.1 - 1068

Joe Allen Swansea City 90.3 1075

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/swansea-city/9017511/Swanseas-Leon-Britton-has-better-passing-stats-than-Xavi.html


This myth that English players can't adapt to this 'European' style game is cringe worthy. Some could argue that as Terry has never played on the continent before we'll never know if he is capable of fitting into this passing system you speak of, but anyone who's watched him throughout his career will know full well he's got the attributes to play in any league, under basically any system. And while we're talking about his passing, his long range passing with either foot was also superb. Terry's ability to read danger in and around the box was again outstanding, so much so I'd consider him alongside the greats with regards to his reading of the game from a defensive aspect. There's no doubt the guy is far from your perfect role model off the pitch, but he's a brilliant defender and footballer, and one of the greatest leaders I've ever seen on an English football pitch.

(Although he's still playing, I use past tense as I'm referring to him in his prime.)

The other thing you said which I don't agree with is ''Gerrard is the best player produced by either nation over the last 20 years, could even be argued ever''

Didn't Rafa teach you anything? .... if we are talking about Gerrard of 2008, then yeah he was pretty damn impressive I agree but that was down to the -system/style play- Rafa put in place and the way he used his players with in said 'system' ... the presence of Alonso and Torres was key as well, they gave Gerrard a platform to shine (Alonso) and a reference point to play off (Torres) but at the end of the day Gerrard has developed into the footballer he is 'DESPITE' the way young footballers are developed in England - the coaching methods/what is valued in this country athletic ability -size/speed, over technical ability -playing 5 vs 5 till they are whilst young ... NOT because of it, what does that mean 'could Gerrard be a better player than he is, if he grew up in Holland as a young boy - with access to far better coaching etc etc'? Or is has Gerrard been such a stand out player in England because he has all the 'athletic' tools to excel in -the fast paced world of English football? Rafa just came a long and harnessed them, made Gerrard realize his potential.

No, has he taught you anything? Tell me, where do you sign up to these Rafa classes cause I'd love to have some tutoring from that legend?! ;D

I'll be honest with you mate, I think you're introducing a level of complexity to this argument which if factored in to all arguments of 'Player X is better than player Y because' would over complicate matters so much so that you forget you're comparing the physical, mental and technical abilities of two players. That's like saying Cruyff was great, but he only reached the heights he did because he played alongside Johan Neeskens, or Zidane was only so great because he had Edgar Davids/Claude Makelele alongside him. Football is of course a team game, and certain systems or players may help extract the best from a player, but even if Messi played for QPR last season, his brilliance would still be there for everyone to watch and admire.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 01:51:53 pm by Quaid »
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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #635 on: June 27, 2013, 02:06:26 pm »
this frank de boer discussion is bizarre. He was a fine footballer, and a decent defender, once you overlooked his weakness in the air, and that he had the pace of a milkfloat.

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #636 on: June 27, 2013, 02:06:56 pm »
John Terry is the best defender this country has ever produced behind only the great Bobby Moore.
Really? A very, very good defender at his best, despite being a massive twat, but there are a couple of English defenders I'd rather have over him. And plenty more from the rest of the world. Don't think I've ever seen anyone regard Terry as much as you appear to do.

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #637 on: June 27, 2013, 02:20:09 pm »
Even though it's a bit (or a lot) off-topic, Cruyff revolutionized Dutch football much more than Michels, they both have huge influences in the tactical area but Cruyff (and his father-in-law) made, among other things, sure players who play in the Dutch league got paid properly and ensured a pension for them, which made sure players didn't have to worry about money after they retired.

Offline Coolie High

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #638 on: June 27, 2013, 02:22:48 pm »
Wouldn't say John terry was the best English defender in the last 20 years, Ferdinand is better for one. But His passing game(John Terry's) has always been underrated to me, always struck me as a player who was quite comfortable on the ball when needs be, during Mourinhos days he used to hoof it a bit but i always thought that was down to tactical instructions, because when he wanted to he could play some great passes from the defence into midfield, could always tell he used to be a midfielder in the earlier parts of his career.

Offline MaschHead

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #639 on: June 27, 2013, 02:26:40 pm »
this frank de boer discussion is bizarre. He was a fine footballer, and a decent defender, once you overlooked his weakness in the air, and that he had the pace of a milkfloat.

I think Frank de Boer and Jaap Stam was the best pairing we had in the last 30 (or more) years probably and for someone who is weak the air he scored quite a few headers by the way.