Author Topic: FC Barcelona  (Read 884685 times)

Offline RedHopper

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #640 on: June 27, 2013, 02:34:47 pm »
I think Frank de Boer and Jaap Stam was the best pairing we had in the last 30 (or more) years probably and for someone who is weak the air he scored quite a few headers by the way.

is that a good measure? stam was very good in the air but rarely ever scored. I think he managed 6 goals in the 10 seasons after leaving psv

Offline Quaid

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #641 on: June 27, 2013, 02:52:59 pm »
Really? A very, very good defender at his best, despite being a massive twat, but there are a couple of English defenders I'd rather have over him. And plenty more from the rest of the world. Don't think I've ever seen anyone regard Terry as much as you appear to do.

Who would you have over him? Tony Adams? Sol Campbell? Terry Butcher? Phil Thompson? Honestly can't think of any English centre halves who I'd have over Terry other than Bobby Moore.

And there are a fair few defenders I'd have over Terry from around the World, but the original argument was strictly referring to the best players produced by the Netherlands and England over the last 2 decades. Had it been 3 decades, then Ronald Koeman would probably have been listed as the best.
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Offline Roger Federer

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #642 on: June 27, 2013, 03:02:45 pm »
Who would you have over him? Tony Adams? Sol Campbell? Terry Butcher? Phil Thompson? Honestly can't think of any English centre halves who I'd have over Terry other than Bobby Moore.

And there are a fair few defenders I'd have over Terry from around the World, but the original argument was strictly referring to the best players produced by the Netherlands and England over the last 2 decades. Had it been 3 decades, then Ronald Koeman would probably have been listed as the best.
During my time of watching football, I'd have Rio Ferdinand, another twat, and Sol Campbell above Terry. Especially Ferdinand. Carragher at his very best, was outstanding as well (but he had fewer years at his prime than the others). And from the Netherlands - seeing as that was the discussion apparently - I rate Stam higher as well. Terry is, or rather was, very good, but it seemed to me like you thought he was an alltime great or something. Maybe just me who misunderstood you though.

Offline RedHopper

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #643 on: June 27, 2013, 03:07:31 pm »
rafa seemed to think that gary cahill was better as well, though he may have been winding up the chelsea fans. even at his best though it was the evil genius of carvalho that made terry look good.

Offline Phil M

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #644 on: June 27, 2013, 04:03:39 pm »
HAHAHAHAHHA so wrong.

:)

The lack of capitalization is worse.
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Offline tubby

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #645 on: June 27, 2013, 04:09:48 pm »
Wouldn't say John terry was the best English defender in the last 20 years, Ferdinand is better for one. But His passing game(John Terry's) has always been underrated to me, always struck me as a player who was quite comfortable on the ball when needs be, during Mourinhos days he used to hoof it a bit but i always thought that was down to tactical instructions, because when he wanted to he could play some great passes from the defence into midfield, could always tell he used to be a midfielder in the earlier parts of his career.

Just popping in to agree with this.  Terry is often seen as a typical hoofing English centrehalf, but he's far from it.  Equally comfortable with both feet and capable of switching play with long crossfield passes the same way Agger does for us.  If he actually had any kind of pace, he'd have been an incredible defender.
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Offline Juan Loco

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #646 on: June 27, 2013, 04:43:55 pm »
I really don't think of Gerrard as being very technical, and less so a complete player( well yes in physical terms he is/was a complete player) in either technical or tactical terms, when I compare him to other (Attacking) midfielders I have seen like Laudrup, Stojkovic, Litmanen, Prosinecki and Savicevic, most of whom can do things with the football (with either leg) that Gerrard simply cannot, or at the very least, I have never seen Gerrard do.

This is a really weird mental block you Ajax and Barcelona fans seem to have. You're well wrong. I think it's a great shame that being so physically incredible has stopped Gerrard's all round ability from being recognised. It's a shame he's not 5'7 and a bit portly. You lot would've got much more enjoyment over just how ridiculously good he is.
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Offline Mr Dilkington

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #647 on: June 27, 2013, 05:14:00 pm »
I am not wrong, Gerrard is very good in what he does, but there is a whole lot he literally cannot do in technical terms. For instance, his Handelingssnelheid* is poor, he is not a good dribbler, his passing game (whilst being very accurate) is limited in depth and range (NB. not in metres, he can hit a 70 yard long ball and place it accurately, when I say depth and range I actually mean the total amount of passes he is capable of producing.  For instance, Gerrard is not capable of producing passes (like a couple that Suarez did last season) with the outside of his boots. Its all fine and dandy to hit 40 yard long balls when in ridiculous amounts of space, but anyone who has ever played football knows that its much more difficult and it requires much more technical ability to one touch reverse a 5 yard pass( or back heel it, or scoop it over the defense) when pressured in a congested area. Gerrard is technically literally unable to give most of the passes Laudrup could give, or Stojkovic could give, with both left and right foot. Id go on, but I think just the above is enough to illustrate Gerrards lack of completeness in purely technical terms when compared to real 'technicians' mate (Rodgers, 2012 TM).

Technical ability on the ball is not about "big movements" like blasting a ball from 40 yards into the roof of the goal or passing over 50 meters, that is mostly just a question of natural ability, a question of instinct and explosiveness whereas technical ability is revealed in subtlety, in small movements, which expresses itself in control and economy of touch. The best example here for me to illustrate what I mean would be Suarez vs Coutinho. Suarez having ridiculous amounts of natural ability, both explosive and instinctual, whilst Coutinho is the technical wunderkind, in complete control of the ball, his game based on minimal movements and economy of touch.

Personally I am a bit of a chameleon,  I appreciate most type of football, not just technical football ( I even grew somewhat of a fondness for Kuijt eventually) and I don't think i could possible enjoyed Gerrard more than I already have and continue to do BUT that being said I appreciate conceptual clarity regarding "technique" and factual accuracy more.



* handelingssnelheid or: "actionspeed" is a concept in Dutch football, defined as the sum of a players insight-speed, decision-speed, starting-speed and technical-motorical skills, which is running at speed and (combined with) tricks.
I respect your views, but I literally disagree with everything you've written there.
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Offline Juan Loco

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #648 on: June 27, 2013, 05:20:01 pm »
I respect your views, but I literally disagree with everything you've written there.

Essentially this.

Coupled with my general bug bear that technique is all encompassing and shouldn't just be something that describes passing or dribbling, which is it in danger of being boiled down to.
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Offline Mr Dilkington

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #649 on: June 27, 2013, 05:23:02 pm »
Thats more than fair mate. Perhaps critique me (if you have time and inclination) in a PM? I very much respect your views.
No worries man, I know you know your stuff.

A lot of the time it comes down to wee margins here and there, and of course cultural differences.
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Offline Quaid

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #650 on: June 27, 2013, 05:24:34 pm »
I will expand on some of these comments later on, but let's keep the messages/discussions in here as the debate is an interesting one! :)

With regards to the technique of Gerrard I'm with Juan and Mr D, wholeheartedly disagree that Gerrard lacks 'handelingssnelheid'.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 05:26:54 pm by Quaid »
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Offline Roger Federer

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #651 on: June 27, 2013, 05:28:25 pm »
his passing game (whilst being very accurate) is limited in depth and range (NB. not in metres, he can hit a 70 yard long ball and place it accurately, when I say depth and range I actually mean the total amount of passes he is capable of producing.  For instance, Gerrard is not capable of producing passes (like a couple that Suarez did last season) with the outside of his boots.
Have you seen Gerrard play? I can understand the arguments about Gerrard's will to force the play when perhaps patience is what is required, his decision making in short, but there can - or should be - no question that he is able to play any pass there is. His range of passes is incredible, his technique outstanding. Have to agree with Juan Loco here - if he did the same things, but didn't have his incredible physique to go with it, his absolute quality on the ball would be better noticed and appreiciated more but some, it would seem.

Offline Juan Loco

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #652 on: June 27, 2013, 06:03:22 pm »
No, ofcourse there is heading-technique, jumping-technique and all different motor-technical skills and they are all subsets of the overall all-encompassing concept of "technique" (plus I already mentioned that Gerrards game is complete in physical terms so I did take that in my analysis) but, shirley, the main component of being technical is being technical on and with the ball? After all, 'football' is all about, or to 'play football' is all about, the manipulation of time, space, opponent and, most importantly, ball.

I'm not saying all techniques are created equal (for me I think dribbling [so long as it's coupled with intelligence] is the most important thing because it means you're opening up space somewhere else on the pitch that can be exploited). My problem is that technique is a really broad, general term that's in danger of only being applicable to diminutive Spanish players in discussion. Timing and executing a tackle is technique. If someone told me Nesta lacked technique I would scoff (/headbutt them).

And on top of which, I think Gerrard has total mastery of a football. Not just the 'Hollywood' tag he's derided with (as if being able to do spectacular things is a flaw). Some people will slag me for this, but whatever, Gerrard's problem has been the vast majority of teammates he's had. There's very few bad players in there. But you're talking about Laudrup. Laudrup played in the Dream Team. Gerrard's played in one genuinely brilliant team (08-09) and a couple of very good ones (Houllier 2000-02 when he was very young, Rafa's 05-06). This isn't to dismiss the other players, but just to illustrate a point. You're talking about Laudrup's range of passing and manipulation of the ball, those little scooped passes. I've seen Gerrard do that. It was 2006-07 at home to Chelsea (think it was early February. Kuyt and Pennant scored, Riise hit the bar from 50 yards). It was lateish in the 2nd half and the game was won, and he took a ball around the edge of the 18 yard box, surrounded by Chelsea players, and flicked it over to Kuyt. Kuyt. It was miscontrolled, as you'd expect, and you'll never see it again. Why would you? Romario doesn't fuck that up.

There are hundreds upon hundreds of Gerrard moments that aren't long balls or him twatting them in from 25 yards (as if there's anything wrong with that ;)).
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Offline 19Messi

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #653 on: June 27, 2013, 07:00:36 pm »
The reason why Cruyff is saying all that in the last weeks is due to the rivalry between the president Rosell and the last president Laporta. Cruyff is friend of Laporta and Laporta and his friend want Rosell out and that Barça don't win titles. In the next elections (I think that are in 2016) Laporta will be a candidate surely. This has always happened in Barça, the battle for the power is the only thing that those kind of people want. If Barça was owned by a rich man then it wouldn't happen because people like Laporta or Rosell don't have 1 bilion to buy big clubs like Barça so nobody would care what they and their friends would say. For example Cruyff said that to have Neymar and Messi in the same team would be a problem because are 2 stars together and that's never good. But when Barça had Ronaldinho, Eto'o and Messi and signed Henry then Cruyff said that was a good signing because would make that the other stars worked hard not to be in the bench. But the reality was that with those 4 the season was horrible for Barça. But the difference is that nowadays the president is his enemy Rosell and before the president was his friend Laporta, so all that Laporta did for Cruyff were great decisions.

Offline Spanish Fan

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #654 on: June 27, 2013, 07:29:48 pm »
Holland 74, Hungary 54 and Brazil 82 are far more remembered than the winners of those world cups, even by the ones who rate results over style. :D

Artistry in football does not always come  second.





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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #655 on: June 27, 2013, 07:39:48 pm »
Well, first of all you have to view his comments yesterday in the context of him being very critical of Barca's profligate spending and him holding the belief that two superstars cannot play together. A view shared by Guardiola and de Boer btw. So if one knows this background and context its very easy to deduce that the "selling Messi" comment isn't meant to be taken literally. Its meant as a critique on Barcelona's transfer policy. He's well entitled to believe that investing 57m euros in a brazilian superstar wunderkind might be a risky proposition, especially when one considers the massive loss Barca made on superstar Zlatan Ibrahimovic. He is Dutch and its well known how ehm lets say frugal and sober the Dutch are moneywise. For me personally, I posted in this very thread that I hope that Messi and Neymar click, as Neymar could be a Garrincha to Messi's Pele but I can very easily imagine a scenario where two superstar ego's collide on the pitch with potentially very bad consequences.

You would have Gerrard and Henry over Cruijff? Really? Fair enough, obviously I disagree vehemently, the gap between Cruijff and these two is immense imho, not to mention the fact I would name about ten players before either Henry or Gerrard that still would not be able to be considered as comparable to Cruijff. I can understand the Iniesta and Zidane shouts tho'.
Bill Shankly passed away so you can remove him from your contemporary list. Sacchi and van Gaal's succes is based on the workmanlike implementation of Cruijffs work, fair enough, and are great trainers and thinkers but not comparable to Cruijff or his overall influence on the game. As for Ferguson, he is not a thinker nor a philosopher and he hasn't really contributed much if anything to the development of football en general in football-technical terms.

You are missing the politics at Barca. What did Cruyff say when Barcelona signed Ibrahimovic?

I'll tell you, nothing. His mates made the decission.

Cruyff has different opinions depending on who he is judging at times, not on the matter being judged.
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Offline hwieniawski

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FC Barcelona
« Reply #656 on: June 27, 2013, 07:43:21 pm »
I am not wrong, Gerrard is very good in what he does, but there is a whole lot he literally cannot do in technical terms. For instance, his Handelingssnelheid* is poor, he is not a good dribbler, his passing game (whilst being very accurate) is limited in depth and range (NB. not in metres, he can hit a 70 yard long ball and place it accurately, when I say depth and range I actually mean the total amount of passes he is capable of producing.  For instance, Gerrard is not capable of producing passes (like a couple that Suarez did last season) with the outside of his boots. Its all fine and dandy to hit 40 yard long balls when in ridiculous amounts of space, but anyone who has ever played football knows that its much more difficult and it requires much more technical ability to one touch reverse a 5 yard pass( or back heel it, or scoop it over the defense) when pressured in a congested area. Gerrard is technically literally unable to give most of the passes Laudrup could give, or Stojkovic could give, with both left and right foot. Id go on, but I think just the above is enough to illustrate Gerrards lack of completeness in purely technical terms when compared to real 'technicians' mate (Rodgers, 2012 TM).

Technical ability on the ball is not about "big movements" like blasting a ball from 40 yards into the roof of the goal or passing over 50 meters, that is mostly just a question of natural ability, a question of instinct and explosiveness whereas technical ability is revealed in subtlety, in small movements, which expresses itself in control and economy of touch......
 and technical-motorical skills, which is running at speed and (combined with) tricks.


I'm rather late to this discussion, forgive me if I repeat some things already discussed!

I completely agree on your analysis of the difference between coutinho and Suarez. Suarez is obviously the better and more effective player right now, but coutinho is much more of a technician. Gerrard has many wonderful facets to his playing, but he also is not a technician. It's something you see in the way a player carries the ball and touches the ball, that difference between controlling the ball, and cradling the ball. Iniesta and messi both have that soft touch. Obviously it's no guarantee that a player is great, and to be sure Gerrard is and has been an incredible player, maybe not the most perfect technically, but certainly a great a player as any Barca player except messi
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Offline Nin

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #657 on: June 27, 2013, 08:34:34 pm »
For instance, Gerrard is not capable of producing passes (like a couple that Suarez did last season) with the outside of his boots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJrHVBQDy2U   46 secs in...

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #658 on: June 27, 2013, 08:56:03 pm »
Well to me the political aspect of his comments was obvious. Politics is of course an aspect of being a human being. Cruijff wouldn't make problems for his friends at Barca in the same way that he doesn't want to create problems for Frank de Boer and overmars now at Ajax. It's is only natural to protect your friends. At least for me that is.

However I know very little of the specifics and exact nature of the internal politics of Barcelona, which is why I have refrained from commentating on it from the political angle. You just have to look at Redhoppers "interpretation" of the Velvet Revolution at Ajax to see how fast you can make yourself look like a tit when you dont know or understand the whole story. Because whilst I do understand the basic outlines of the political situation (the Laporta vs Rosel angle) Ive never really had the inclination or the time or the passion to start to gain something even close to resembling ehm "enlightened understanding" of the whole political side of Barca. Its not my club after all.

Its hard enough to keep track of the politics at Ajax as it is no there's really no room to start understanding Barcelona too!

PS. Its those that dont (fully) understand this political dimension that are yelling "he's mental" the loudest I think.

Plus in regards to the Zlatan debacle, maybe Zlatan flopping led to an evolution in Cruijffs thinking? Or alternatively: maybe he did think that already ( that two superstars do not work) but just shut his mouth because he did not want to mess things up for his friends? Who knows. I certainly do not  ;D

 It was entirely politics, the same politics that made him criticize Rosell when Barcelona decided to put an sponsor on their shirt but applauded Laporta when the old board decided to do the same.

By the way, what is Cruyff's legacy in terms of tactical innovations according to you?
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Offline Roger Federer

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #659 on: June 27, 2013, 10:47:37 pm »
Ok, let me phrase it even more nuancedly (thats not a word is it  ;D). Lets focus on his passing exclusively here.

His technique is excellent in the passes he can produce, but also limited to the passes he can produce. You, and Johnny and mr D are arguing that he is very technical in what he does, and essentially that is true. My analysis is the same, he has good technique to hit those 40 yard passes, and he does hit them technically perfectly. However, we are talking about being complete in technical terms, so my analysis is not just based on what he can do, but I also take on board what he cannot do. Because to be complete in technical terms you have to be able to play any pass possible, in a wide variety of situations, preferably with both legs. He simply does not produce passes like Laudrup for instance, or Stojkovic. Find a passing compilation of Laudrup or Stojkovic and you will find a plethora of passes that I have never seen Gerrard do and I have seen a large part of his games. Stojkovic could give passes (or hit freekicks and corners) with his bad leg that Gerrard could not make with his right leg. Laudrup especially saw passes that Gerrard would not be able to see let alone execute.

I don't get the "physique" argument (the bolded bit) mate? 
But my argument is that he can play every possible pass, not just the spectacular 40 yard cross from one side of the pitch to the other. I was especially surprised by the outside of the boot comment. I think you have a point when it comes to his left peg, he can't use it nearly as well as his right, but because he's absolutely superb with the outside of his foot, it doesn't matter much. I've seen play one touch passes - of any kind - with his outside perfectly. And I don't mean one or two during his career, he does it in every game. Simple 5 yarders, or brilliant throughballs.

I'd also argue that his vision is incredible (as brilliant as Laudrup's is perhaps debatable, but then Laudrup is one of the absolute best of all time. My favourite player growing up by the way), and the only fault is in his selection of pass at times. Too much is made of that on these boards, but compare Gerrard to the very best, and he's behind them.

By that last comment (is physique the wrong word? I'm not an english speaker) I meant that Gerrard's power, pace, sheer force and all action style on the pitch (especially during his younger years) seem to stand in the way of just how superb he is on the ball. It's as if some have trouble seeing what technique and variety he has to his game, because he does the typical English midfielder stuff so well, and also looks like a typical English midfielder charging around the pitch.

When looking on youtube, it's compilations of those raking long passes you talk about, his incredible goals (a shot like his is surely technique of the highest quality by the way?), tackles, the more spectacular parts of his game. But if someone took the time to go through his matches, you could just as easily make compilation after compilation of clever five yard passes, his beautiful touch, numerous through balls, little shifts of his balance to that fools opponents and opens up space, smart movement and what not. He is a complete player in my view.

Offline Phil M

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #660 on: June 27, 2013, 10:50:00 pm »
This thread is getting more and more off topic.
It's true to say that if Shankly had told us to invade Poland we'd be queuing up 10 deep all the way from Anfield to the Pier Head.

Offline RedHopper

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #661 on: June 28, 2013, 01:51:04 am »
Good god Wickedbark, your love of Cruyff seems to take you beyond reason. Firstly you give no credit to the men in suits for balancing the books across the seasons. Yet you are ready to blame them for the ill judged signings, the most spectacularly awful of which was  Sulemani.  But he was signed at the request of the greyest of non-footballing grey men in suits, Marco van Basten. By in large, these players were signed by directors of football at the behest of managers. the job of the men in suits was to make sure there was enough money. You also miss the point about the other clubs. Ajax have remained strong through a cautious policy of developing and selling players. The other clubs over extended themselves, and can't compete any more. It means that the teams that de boer's squad now face, just aren't anywhere near as good as the opponents that the pre 'velvet revolution' teams had to face. But That doesn't matter to Cruyff, he doesn't really care what he uses to attack his enemies, so he can use one thing to attack his enemies at ajax, and then turn around and attack his enemies at Barcelona using exactly the opposite. He can praise one barcelona president, and excoriate another barca president for doing exactly the same thing. This is not good.

The reason that Cruyff became involved again was apparently  because he saw ajax lose 2-0 to real madrid and only have one shot.  Now in response he prepared an action plan for Ajax, and eventually came back with something. Now like all plans created by individuals, it had its good points and its bad points, however, cruyff insisted that every single part of his miraculous plan had to be implemented or nothing at all. The plan also insisted that the board had to go. So he publicly destroyed them, and then brought in his buddies. Now you think that cruyff is wearing a white hat and his allies are the goodies, and that his enemies were wearing the black hats, and are the baddies. But the story doesn't end there does it?

What you have neglected to mention is that when the people he brought in as his buddies disagreed with him, he forced them to resign as well. You see Ajax needed to apoint a chief executive, johan's plan was to appoint the unbelievably inappropriate Ling Tshen La., and the people he had on the board with him were horrified at this completely insane suggestion, but were also big fans of louis van gaal, and they decided that they'd like him to be chief executive. But Cruyff absolutely refused point blank. So these allies of cruyff took advantage of the fact that he never actually turned up to meetings, decided to try and bring in van gaal behind his back and when cruyff discovered such betrayal he completely blew his top and launched a courtcase to prevent van gaal from  being appointed, he succeeded and for the second time in a year, everyone resigned. so Ajax had no chief executive, and no board, all because johan wanted his way and didn't care about anything, or anyone else, he'd sooner see ajax without a board than have Louis van Gaal in an important position at the club. That is what he is like, It's all about him and what he wants.   

You see the only thing that cruyff cares about is whether or not you agree with him, and he doesn't care about doing the right thing, or whether his ridiculous narcissistic posturing is good or bad for the club he is helping. Oh and In the two seasons since his revolution, they've been battered by real madrid four times, and conceded 14 goals, but they scored two. Johan has yet to bring out a report suggesting that his system is a failure and that everyone should be fired.

And as for the academy, it's true that the ajax academy has hardly produced any players over the last decade, apart from Christian eriksson, and siem de jong, Ricardo van rhijn, kenneth vermeer, toby aldeirweld, and daley blind in the current first team. so that's basically no-one. well apart from jan vertonghen, urby emmanuelson, vurnon anita, gregory van der Wiel, maarten Steklenberg, thomas vermalen, johnny heitinga, ryan babel, wesley sneijder, tom de mul, hedwiges maduro, all of whom were sold over the last six seasons for a total of €120 million The ajax academy was clearly shit.

And what was cruyff's brilliant plan for the academy? Fire all of the specialist coaches, and appoint a bunch of former players and move away from a focus on tactical organisation and team play, and focus more on individual skills and technique. Basically take a giant flying leap into the 1970's. You can start to see why maybe some people thought they could do with having louis around.

and to be honest I'm not impressed with how many rabbits he killed in the dutch league, or how many teams he ran over in spain. I just highlighted that his dream team really wasn't that dreamy in those big games. I particularly hold losing that cup winners cup final against him. They were so..... disappointingly shit in that game. Perhaps they were super dreamy to a club that was as starved of success as barcelona were, and being the first spanish team to win a european cup in 26 years may have added an extra layer of glitz. but looking back at it now, they weren't perhaps quite as extraordinary as they would have had us believe at the time. Barcelona are capable of producing extraordinary teams from time to time, but perhaps only real madrid are better at blowing their own trumpet.

And yes, Cruyff may have helped to revitalise the ajax academy in the 1980's, but it was the immensely tedious drilling work carried out over several years by van gaal that managed to lift those players to the level where they could dominate europe. Without van Gaal, and without his endless work on defending as a unit, as well as attacking as an interchangable unit, then ajax would have been butchered by milan like the dream team were. it was van gaal who got those players ready for football in the 90s. It is telling that those players were never really able to reach the same levels without van Gaal. I mean they were so well organised that Winston Bogarde looked like an excellent defender in that team.

Now at this point it is worth pointing out that Van Gaal is also a total Headcase (it seems to be a real dutch football thing) who is only really happy when fighting with people, but he's not as charismatic as Cruyff, so he doesn't have an army of true believer followers who are prepared to always take his side, and always believe his side of the story, regardless of how badly he behaves.  Therefore he gets fired before he can cause too much damage. It takes skill to get fired by barcelona after winning two titles  and coming second in the league in only three seasons, but van Gaal fought with everyone. if you're fighting with the media, with your star players, with your board, then being right a lot of time isn't going to save you.  Sooner or later people get sick of him. (he's like a charmless Jose in a lot of respects)

However while he may draw on elements of cruyff's approach, he's very much his own man. It's difficult to think of two more different teams in terms of organization and tactical awareness than barcelona 94 and ajax 95. here was a man who had taken Cruyff's ideas and brought them into the modern age. Of course cruyff hates him. van gaal had raised football to a new level. Guardiola and Rijkaard's cl winning barcelona teams are the closest thing to the systematic brilliance of that 94-95 and 95-96 team. Cruyff may have been a visionary in his day, but he can't accept that football has moved on, and it won't stop him from interfering and meddling in barcelona, and more damagingly at ajax.

The best thing that could happen to Ajax over the next couple of years, would be for Cruyff to leave them alone and stop causing such massive trouble everywhere he goes. and to bring us back to where he started, Barcelona could benefit with having to hear less of his wisdom as well. He's really not very helpful at all.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2013, 01:53:16 am by RedHopper »

Offline kaz1983

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #662 on: June 28, 2013, 06:23:36 am »
Quote
This myth that English players can't adapt to this 'European' style game is cringe worthy. Some could argue that as Terry has never played on the continent before we'll never know if he is capable of fitting into this passing system you speak of, but anyone who's watched him throughout his career will know full well he's got the attributes to play in any league, under basically any system. And while we're talking about his passing, his long range passing with either foot was also superb. Terry's ability to read danger in and around the box was again outstanding, so much so I'd consider him alongside the greats with regards to his reading of the game from a defensive aspect. There's no doubt the guy is far from your perfect role model off the pitch, but he's a brilliant defender and footballer, and one of the greatest leaders I've ever seen on an English football pitch.

(Although he's still playing, I use past tense as I'm referring to him in his prime.)


I must admit that those stats surprised me. A passing percentage of 91.6 is higher than I thought, that said I did say this...

''the other option is to pair a more direct and aggressive center back like Terry with someone who is more of a 'ball player' center back but that said the more 'direct/aggressive' CB has to be good on the ball/be able to pick out a short pass but most importantly the 'right' pass -  to a near by team mate and keep the play ticking over. A great example of this are Puyol and Pique but also Terry and Carvalho.''

I didn't label the bloke shit and be done with it, I just don't agree that you can label a player better another... unless you change the rules of the sport, so its an individual sport not a team game.


Quote
No, has he taught you anything? Tell me, where do you sign up to these Rafa classes cause I'd love to have some tutoring from that legend?! ;D

Well seeing as tho he just took a job in Napoli, he is booked up at the moment.

Quote
I'll be honest with you mate, I think you're introducing a level of complexity to this argument which if factored in to all arguments of 'Player X is better than player Y because' would over complicate matters so much so that you forget you're comparing the physical, mental and technical abilities of two players. That's like saying Cruyff was great, but he only reached the heights he did because he played alongside Johan Neeskens, or Zidane was only so great because he had Edgar Davids/Claude Makelele alongside him. Football is of course a team game, and certain systems or players may help extract the best from a player, but even if Messi played for QPR last season, his brilliance would still be there for everyone to watch and admire.

Well I would say it's prioritizing different over attributes over one another, which is his strengths? what are his weaknesses? how to get the best out of a player? ....  that in a team setting your only going to be able to do if you recognize a players strengths and weaknesses. Take Makelele and his 'strengths'/what he brought to Real Madrid, he may not have been the most skillful player compared to the more attacking players who he had playing a head of him but what he brought to the table was just as important. Also when you consider I was using players of Alonso and Torres (circa 2008) quality - one who was arguably the best player on the team - it's not complex, it's common sense. It was more like say Xavi and Inesta are a big reason why Messi has reached the heights he has at Barca unlike the National team. I personally think that is true, you could add Busquests too that as well - no surprise Messi has stepped it up a gear since his introduction to the first team or that Argentina are missing these type of players/axis. 

Offline kaz1983

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #663 on: June 28, 2013, 06:24:44 am »
This thread is getting more and more off topic.

Offline Quaid

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #664 on: June 28, 2013, 10:01:43 am »
This thread is getting more and more off topic.

Yeah it is, but the debates have been insightful and I for one have learnt a few things. And it's not as if any other users are discussing Barca related issues.
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Offline kaz1983

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #665 on: June 28, 2013, 11:02:49 am »
Yeah it is, but the debates have been insightful and I for one have learnt a few things. And it's not as if any other users are discussing Barca related issues.

I must admit I agree with you there.

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #666 on: June 28, 2013, 03:16:06 pm »
I was looking forward to reading wickedbark's explanation of how Cruyff's choice of a vitamin salesman of dubious background, over Louis Van gaal as CEO was a stroke of visionary genius aimed at saving the soul of Ajax. I was also wondering how he'd explain cruyff suing his hand picked board and forcing them to resign because they disagreed with him, was in the interests of Ajax. But maybe we'll never know.

Offline Quaid

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #667 on: June 28, 2013, 03:51:06 pm »
I was looking forward to reading wickedbark's explanation of how Cruyff's choice of a vitamin salesman of dubious background, over Louis Van gaal as CEO was a stroke of visionary genius aimed at saving the soul of Ajax. I was also wondering how he'd explain cruyff suing his hand picked board and forcing them to resign because they disagreed with him, was in the interests of Ajax. But maybe we'll never know.

I'm sure he'll respond to your comments in due course  ;)
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Offline RedHopper

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #668 on: June 28, 2013, 05:01:22 pm »
I'm sure he'll respond to your comments in due course  ;)

but in the meantime, we should while away the time watching videos of the great man playing, and remember that it was what he did on the pitch that was the most important thing. Great footballers are under the most extraordinary pressures, and are exposed to the most extreme levels of praise and hatred that would twist the minds of any mere mortal. I don't think that it's reasonable that we should expect them to be good guys, or completely sane as well.

Cruyff like all of the greats looked like a player who was 10-20 years ahead of his time. like Pele, Eusebio, maradona, Best, Barnes, rush.... players who did things in a way that seems common now, but were revolutionary at the time. we've probably devoted too much time to the part of his life where he was just a crazy old man fighting with people to keep himself relevant, and to keep the glory of his playing days alive.

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #669 on: June 29, 2013, 07:06:55 am »
Going to be interesting seeing Neymar play against many of his future teammates. Can picture some drama being kicked up if Neymar doesn't act as "angry" as the average Brazil fan thinks he should be if Spain beat them and is seen congratulating the Barcelona representatives in the Spain team.
What do you guys (and gals) think is going to happen during the final? Maybe this can get us off the topic of Dutch Football and Ajax in the Barcelona thread  ::)
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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #670 on: June 29, 2013, 07:32:57 am »
Going to be interesting seeing Neymar play against many of his future teammates. Can picture some drama being kicked up if Neymar doesn't act as "angry" as the average Brazil fan thinks he should be if Spain beat them and is seen congratulating the Barcelona representatives in the Spain team.
What do you guys (and gals) think is going to happen during the final? Maybe this can get us off the topic of Dutch Football and Ajax in the Barcelona thread  ::)

These ridiculous conspiracy theories and alternative explanations always pop up. I think agreement to get Neymar was there since long ago, may be even before Santos played Barca in Club World Cup. If so, one can check out what Santos fans thought after Barca beat Santos 4-0.

But this is not tourney worth crying for. I don't see anything wrong with trying your best, and if you lose, congratulate your teammates. I don't know how Brazilians will react though. On one hand, they are proving to be arrogant petulant assholes about this Confed Cup matches, on the other hand, they seem to be in love with Neymar so much that even his epic play acting and Bollywood style effects on the pitch are applauded.

We will just have to see which side of Brazilians will win over.

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #671 on: June 29, 2013, 06:05:19 pm »
Ouch.
I would honestly let Wijnaldum jizz in my face right now

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #672 on: June 29, 2013, 06:08:10 pm »
What's bitch-slapped in Dutch footballing nomenclature?
"It's the football philosophy that counts, not the system."

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #673 on: June 29, 2013, 06:16:41 pm »
What's bitch-slapped in Dutch footballing nomenclature?
I think it's been created today. It shall be forever known as getting 'Cruijffed'
I would honestly let Wijnaldum jizz in my face right now

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #674 on: June 29, 2013, 06:20:38 pm »
I'd have gone with this....


<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/wKjxFJfcrcA" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/wKjxFJfcrcA</a>

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #675 on: June 29, 2013, 08:14:03 pm »
:lmao

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He is in the penthouse and your somewhere stuck hanging out with Chilean miners.

was my favourite bit
« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 08:16:11 pm by J_Kopite »

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #676 on: June 29, 2013, 08:16:53 pm »

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #677 on: June 29, 2013, 08:17:43 pm »
Wickedbark, that's a brilliant post with feeling. I won't speak to the points raised in the post as you clealry know your stuff and far more about Ajax than anyone else here but I will say that I  completely agree about the quasi religious bond that certain club figures can create - Cruiff with Ajax, Shankly with Liverpool. Magic stuff.

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #678 on: June 29, 2013, 09:38:17 pm »
I really didn't want to read or respond to RedHopper, and many others, but I am blown away by Wickedbark's response. I was a bit lazy to read it all, but I finally did.

There are a lot of revisionism I see about Cruiff recently, and if I have to guess, I connect it to a global butt-hurt about Barcelona and Spain's dominance. And Cruiff being very much directly attached to these, he gets additional hate, too. There are bunch of Mourinho fans out there, who think he is the best ever coach with superb footballing philosophy, as opposed to Barcelona's. They too are in the camp of haters. They'd question if Barca's dream team was in fact a dream team, if Barca's football is all that good, and many other things. This is why I say that even when a team achieves a FRACTION of what Barcelona or Spain achieve, they are an immediate overnight sensation. They are taken as if they have proved everything overnight.

Take CL, Malaga almost knocked out Borussia, and in that case, the story would have been that Spanish dominance doesn't stop with 3 teams in semis. But German teams getting to finals (deserved no question) has changed media's storyline essentially overnight. It was decline of Barca and Spanish era, end of an era to some, and Bundesliga and Germany taking over. Just one month, one week, in fact 2-3 matches made such a change :D

The same is with Spain. Whoever plays any remotely close game to them, like Italy managed to, is immediately hailed, and they are stars. They cannot stop sucking Italy dry, at the same time complaining that fawning over Spain is over the top. That Spain destroyed Italy is attributed to several other reasons, squad depths this that.

The truth is, world is tired of Spain's and Barca's domination. Even those who were positive about it, now are growing tired. 6 years in world of football is a long time, and they want them gone. So you hear all sorts of unfair criticism anybody connected to Spain. It's always "this guy is overrated", "only in Barca team" and a lot of other BS. Cruiff, generally seen as a very positive guy, is now also under criticism due to this connection. Not surprising that Cruiff's criticism appeared in Barca thread. To me, it's just an extension of Barca hate :D

This domination has hurt many so much, they would dispute Cruiff's, Guardiola's and Xavi's quality. I see forums on internet where people say "Pirlo is better than Xavi, because I hate rat-face" :D Or "Sacci shat on Cruiff in 1994" as you can see in this thread, when in fact Milan's coach in 1994 was Capello. This is just how much some are tired of Barcelona. For this reason, I say let the butt-hurt continue! :D I hope Barca win CL again and Spain win world cup come 2014. I am pretty sure after that some will start saying that Xavi is worse than De Rossi :D
« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 09:40:14 pm by Xxavi »

Offline Anfield Ed

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Re: FC Barcelona
« Reply #679 on: June 29, 2013, 10:22:10 pm »
Except I don't hate Spain nor Barcelona.......

If you read my post properly you would have known that I meant it was through Saachi's infrastructure of the team that kept Milan at that top level for the early 90's.

But yes continue with this "hate" crap. All because people dare to critique Cruyff or Barcelona or Spain!

No team is invincible and no team is perfect however much you may think Barca and Spain are.