Topic: Round Table Liverpool 1-1 Blackburn Rovers

[Hinesy]

A day of frustration. A day of deja vu, and a game we should've blasted into 2012 and a team bereft of morale and a manager mo4e lame duck than gives a fuck. Frankly I'm kinda lost for words.
Still, nice to see our Captain back, and he looked pretty sharp all things considered.
But just cos Carroll's in the box, it doesn't mean no-one else should show up, the amount of times the area between the pen spot and the 6yd box was empty of reds was ridiculous.
At times AC looked disinterested and Downing failed to stun me with the ability he is hired by the national team for. Disafuckingpointing.
Another day at Anfield, another draw. And another who the fuck are you goalkeeper having their best match ever. Gordon fuckin Banks save at the end.Sums us up really.

[Aristotle]

Carroll isn't the problem, he's the scapegoat by players and fans. When he plays the team doesn't look as flowing, not because Carroll plays badly but because the players, espescially the new ones, see him as an easy way out. Seems to me like the players are always using him as an escape when they don't want to take the chance themselves. "Two players against me I'll boot it to Carroll" or "running out of breath I'll boot it to Carroll" "5 against 1 in the box. Come on Andy you've done it against worse"

[SMD]

Funny thing is, I thought Carroll hid all the time. He was practically getting a piggy back off Samba and then stopped going into the box altogether. Why on Earth he was popping up at left back or 20 yards from Luis I don't know.
Our midfield was awful. Maxi was alright and Henderson with Adam individually weren't awful but as a pairing they left a gaping hole in the middle. There wasn't anyone waiting for transitions. Either everyone went forward or everyone stayed back. Thing is, we're trying to play Suarez in two different positions at once - as a finisher and as a forward between the lines. I guess being both Torres and Luis Garcia is beyond even his capabilities.
Stewart Downing was absolutely abysmal. His decision making is mind boggling. He runs down the flank, cuts back and crosses deep and misses everyone or finds the other wideman. Or he crosses on his right to the near post. That's pretty much his game today, if he didn't lose the ball.

Downing and Carroll looked disinterested at best, though everyone seemed lifted by Gerrard's cameo. But what the hell, Carroll's 22 and playing for one of the biggest teams in Europe - and likely as big as it's going to get for him unless he changes his attitude. And Downing's supposed to be in his prime. Why do they look like they can't be arsed?

It's December 26th. Kenny and Comolli really have to decide now if these are going to be Liverpool players or not because 4 months into the season, it looks like they're unsure if they want to be. The extra 4 points we dropped from Blackburn and Wigan would've pushed us to joint 3rd and in the running for the CL. Now, we've got Newcastle breathing down our necks with a striker who can actually score goals. Another season without any European competition would be catastrophic, with the Europa League an inconvenience.

Back five were fine, it's good to be able to say that despite Enrique having an awful game by his standards we're not pining for the days of Konchesky. Johnson is a beast and anyone who thinks he's shite clearly knows nothing about football.

Also, Blackburn fans: we have won the league, 18 times in fact. You might remember one of the managers who added to our title haul, he won the title for you lot as well. Morons.

[Aristotle]

Funny thing is, I thought Carroll hid all the time. He was practically getting a piggy back off Samba and then stopped going into the box altogether. Why on Earth he was popping up at left back or 20 yards from Luis I don't know.

Not today I'll give you that, but it's been his time here in a nutshell. When Luis is alone up top the players have to move the ball to him, because hoofing it up to him vs. a typical 6'+ CB pair. But with Carroll not so much luck. They see him in the box surrounded by 3 players and instead of going into the box too or drawing the center backs out by attacking them once they're within reaching distance they go for him. His service is shit and therefore he starts playing like shit and stops making the extra effort because he "knows" that he won't get any quality service.

Our midfield was awful. Maxi was alright and Henderson with Adam individually weren't awful but as a pairing they left a gaping hole in the middle. There wasn't anyone waiting for transitions. Either everyone went forward or everyone stayed back. Thing is, we're trying to play Suarez in two different positions at once - as a finisher and as a forward between the lines. I guess being both Torres and Luis Garcia is beyond even his capabilities.

Charlie Adam was abysmal today at moving the ball imo. He was always asking for the ball, he made himself available then he waited and gave the Blackburn players time to close him down and forced a sideways or backpass. The worst thing for me was when he had all the time in the world, and instead of putting his head down and rushing forward he passed it behind Downing and turned a 3v4 counter into a 3v7  stalemate. I thought Henderson stepped up once Adam went off, but his performance was still sub-par.

Stewart Downing was absolutely abysmal. His decision making is mind boggling. He runs down the flank, cuts back and crosses deep and misses everyone or finds the other wideman. Or he crosses on his right to the near post. That's pretty much his game today, if he didn't lose the ball.

Agree with that. How people say he plays better on the right is beyond me. It was painfully predictable and if the full back would've had more than 10 games under his belt he wouldn't have gotten a look today. He got past his man, on a number of times only cut back and put it straight on Samba's head. And the only times he didn't cut back he aimed for Maxi, regardless of him being in the box or not. Keeping him on for Maxi was a tactical fail, simple as.

Downing and Carroll looked disinterested at best, though everyone seemed lifted by Gerrard's cameo. But what the hell, Carroll's 22 and playing for one of the biggest teams in Europe - and likely as big as it's going to get for him unless he changes his attitude. And Downing's supposed to be in his prime. Why do they look like they can't be arsed?

Like I said earlier. Carroll seems to be playing like it's not worth trying it. He has tried working his ass off and never got the ball, so why bother. He's still getting paid after all. Might sound cynical but that's how I see it right now. Another thing he should stop trying every header on goal. Wish he'd try the knockdown more often, kinda like Nolan did for him @ Newcastle.

As for Downing, I said it when we signed him and I've said it far too often since then. He's a great player to come on with the score 1-0 or 2-0 and get you the next goal and put the game beyond contest. But he's never been and never will be a game winner. We signed brilliant squad players, but we're still desperately needing matchwinners. I mean can anyone honestly say that seeing Downing with the ball, on either flank puts you on the edge of your seat?

It's December 26th. Kenny and Comolli really have to decide now if these are going to be Liverpool players or not because 4 months into the season, it looks like they're unsure if they want to be. The extra 4 points we dropped from Blackburn and Wigan would've pushed us to joint 3rd and in the running for the CL. Now, we've got Newcastle breathing down our necks with a striker who can actually score goals. Another season without any European competition would be catastrophic, with the Europa League an inconvenience.

I honestly can't tell any more. I thought that once they adjusted we'd be flying high, but we seem to be having more problems than we should have and trying to force things to happen that aren't there. The transition was positive, but 5 new players into the team making up 3 of our midfield 4 is just begging for trouble. And the worrying thing is that we might have to buy yet again to try and fix it.

Back five were fine, it's good to be able to say that despite Enrique having an awful game by his standards we're not pining for the days of Konchesky. Johnson is a beast and anyone who thinks he's shite clearly knows nothing about football.

Johnson was great today. His heading was superb, quite surprised me in fact and leaves me wondering what will happen to young Kelly. But still, a fantastic problem to have.


Lastly I'm not as convinced as most others seem to be at Steven Gerrard being our one and only saviour. I've been quite vocal about, not in the Andy@Allerton way but I've said it that he's the player in the squad that needs replacing. Especially given his injury record right now. I love Gerrard, one of my favourite footballers of all time and I have countless great memories associated with him but I kinda feel like he's reaching Totti status. When he plays he's such a dominating figure, espescially with a British based, largely new squad. If you are a young man, nervous about making mistakes and next to you is Steven Gerrard. A true Legend, a proper Hero, our Captain Fantastic. Now do you step up and risk letting your team down or do you pass the baton to that man? I know what I'd do, and we've witnessed it before most notably in recent times with Lucas Leiva.

Think it was BTK who said that he worried about Gerrard upsetting the balance, but in the end how can you not find a place for someone of Gerrard's quality in your team. I'm not sold personally. I feel worried about the shape of his legs and whether he can recreate his absolute power of nature status once again. Like I said, I love Gerrard on an almost erotic level but he's so great because he's a never hold back player. So my biggest worry is, how do you use a man whose only speed setting is full-speed ahead but for the past year or so has been running on a half-filled tank.

[Degs]

For me we've had a problem all season, we are not finishing chances from open play.  Lately we have been scoring from the 1st and 2nd phases of set plays.  Today was no exception, yet again we look most dangerous when we've got players in the area ready to finish and this is only happening off set pieces.

I was hoping that today would see us change, that by playing Carroll and Suarez together up front it would negate the problem we had at Wigan, that it was too easy to mark our one threat out of the game.  Throw in Maxi and we had enough bodies to get forward and get goals.  Yet Carroll continues to fire at the keeper, Suarez tries to take everybody on and Downing is nowhere to be seen.

I feel sorry for Kenny, he's putting the right players out there but they're not good enough.  Henderson has wilted in the light of the central midfield spot.  Compared to the captain of the England under 21 team, a young Gerrard bounding up and down the length of the pitch, this Henderson is playing with lead lined boots.  Charlie Adam is suffering the most now Lucas is out of the team, no longer can he rely on the Brazilian to do his job and he is becoming exposed in the centre of the park. Unable to hold his position he chases the ball while it is inevitably passed around him, like a Jack Russell let off the lead, Henderson watches on.

We're now suffering from "moneyball" and from the "buy British" transfer policies employed in the summer.  The young players have not had the time to develop and look lost while the likes of Stewart Downing is being exposed for what he was, a crosser of the ball and nothing less.

The only saving grace was Gerrard.  As soon as he was on the pitch he was finding the passes quickly enough for them to be effective.  For too long our central midfielders have dawdled their way to the edge of the area while the opposition defence organises itself.  Gerrard may have lost the yard of pace in his legs but not his mind, his passes scythed through the Blackburn back line and put those around him to shame.

Thank fuck he's back.

[Garstonite]

The only saving grace was Gerrard.  As soon as he was on the pitch he was finding the passes quickly enough for them to be effective.  For too long our central midfielders have dawdled their way to the edge of the area while the opposition defence organises itself.  Gerrard may have lost the yard of pace in his legs but not his mind, his passes scythed through the Blackburn back line and put those around him to shame.

Thank fuck he's back.

Agree with this. OK, it was a twenty minute cameo against the bottom of the league, but it was hugely reassuring. His pass to Agger left-centre of goal was exquisite. We looked far more dynamic with him and Bellamy on the pitch. Passes were going forward rather than sideways and his mere presence surgically removed Carroll's finger from his arse.

[Torpedo Tommy]

Frustrating - indeed.

There once was a time when we used to show up for games against the bottom half knowing it was a case of "by how many" and not "if".  Then came the time of Ged and Rafa when we just turned up to make up the numbers and offered no effort.  Capable of demolishing the best but incapable of taking a game to the likes of Southampton.

The funny thing is - and I say funny in the best possible manner - Swansea aside, we have actually been the better side against Norwich, Blackburn, Sunderland, Manchester City and United but there appears little clue of how to play with the expectation of going and completing a job on the opposition.  It seems like we are intent to do just enough to win - but keep falling short due to poor finishing, indecision, good goalkeeping, poor refereeing or a combination of all.

When I say this "do just enough to win" attitude its been happening all season.  We'll take the lead and then drop back.  We'll be at 0-0 and just don't seem to want to take the game to a team from the off - leaving it until late on to try and salvage a win.

We're quite sound defensively and we do have a lot of possession but the final third lets us down badly.  It's like we just don't know what to do, where to run, when to run there and when to release the pass.  At times you are expecting a shot and we seem to overpass.  It is so disjointed up front and I don't think it was down to one individual.  We've played numerous combinations and all have struggled.

There is obviously a lack of understanding at the moment but my opinion is that it's lack of numbers in the box and the pace we get in there.  The passing is too slow and there were a number of instances yesterday when an early ball into the box was being crying out for.  Downing and Enrique were both guilty.  The former did have one of his better games for us for quite some time but seems hesitatant on his right.  The latter did put a few early crosses in that almost resulted in a goal each time.

I don't buy into this "wonder-keeper" claim - well, not yesterday anyway.  We were average first half, better for the first 30 mins of the second half but lacked a cutting edge and only really clicked in the final 15 minutes or so.  Suddenly there was an urgency and the ball started to find players much quicker.  When that happened we really started to put Blackburn under pressure and test Bunn in their goals.  Sadly, it was, as we have seen earlier in the season, too little - too late.

Great to see Stevie back and whilst he looked well off the pace without the ball, his vision and execution for a few passes were exquisite.  You might link his introduction to us upping the tempo of the game.

I'm bored with commenting on the atmosphere.  The support for Luis at kick off was fantastic and his wave of acknowledgement just before half time was nice.  I just hoped that this would act as a catalyst for the remainder of the game.  Sadly, by the 5 minute mark it was largely silent once more.  Let's put it down to over indulgence at Christmas eh?

Regardless, going into the final game at Anfield for 2011, it's been an eventful 12 months.  I know it's been said, many times - many ways, but the ups and downs this club as endured since January 2009 is incredible.  From looking unbeatable in the spring of 2009 to looking like relegation candidates this time last year to where we are now.  Let's hope we are back on the rise for '12 - it's my opinion that the signs are good!

[Twelfth Man]

Stewart Downing was absolutely abysmal. His decision making is mind boggling. He runs down the flank, cuts back and crosses deep and misses everyone or finds the other wideman. Or he crosses on his right to the near post. That's pretty much his game today, if he didn't lose the ball.

Downing and Carroll looked disinterested at best, though everyone seemed lifted by Gerrard's cameo. But what the hell, Carroll's 22 and playing for one of the biggest teams in Europe - and likely as big as it's going to get for him unless he changes his attitude. And Downing's supposed to be in his prime. Why do they look like they can't be arsed?

Shearer for once made a semi-decent point on MotD, Carroll played in a NUFC team that was built for him. Any opportunity they would get it into the box for him and Nolan his partner in crime. His style of play is bamboozling, I fear the subtlety of our build up play, the movement and intelligence required is above his wavelength. Looked very flat footed yesterday despite giving it his all. Every time Downing got wide he just stood in the penalty box expecting the ball to be plopped on his head, making it easy for Samba to get in. He could have made Downing's job a lot easier by making runs near post or far rather than just waiting around the penalty box expecting accurate crosses on his head. He should at the very least dragged Samba out of position and created space for others.

[Twelfth Man]

Agree with this. OK, it was a twenty minute cameo against the bottom of the league, but it was hugely reassuring. His pass to Agger left-centre of goal was exquisite. We looked far more dynamic with him and Bellamy on the pitch. Passes were going forward rather than sideways and his mere presence surgically removed Carroll's finger from his arse.

Carroll is much more of a threat when balls are played quickly into the box rather than the laboured get it down the wings style of play/service he has been getting. I think Gerrard who has an eye for the early ball and cross will give the side a more direct option which should give Carroll more space in the box compared to the predictable get it wide, cross it in play we do at present.

[-HH-]

Always better to start with the positives (plural is stretching it though) - our defence looks incredibly solid right now. Bar a crazy and inexplicable own goal we looked strong as ever and unlikely to concede. As others have said Enrique probably had his worst game so far but even that didn't stop us looking like an outfit that won't concede many goals.

Saw an Opta stat earlier today that said we have the worst shot conversion rate in the league. Our general play in possession was actively poor yesterday, the movement less fluid than it has been and yet we still created the chances to win the game comfortably. Again, we didn't take them. I actually think we're not from being the most creative team in the league. And we have the best defence in the league still if I'm not mistaken. Even with poor finishing we'd be comfortably top four at the moment but oh what I wouldn't give for just poor finishing. We are woeful in front of goal. Yes without Lucas there are gaps in our midfield, yes we can have days like this where it doesn't quite come together - but if we could just stick the fucking ball in the back of the fucking net it wouldn't really matter.

I'd still rather lose/draw this way though (frustrating as it is) than lose/draw how we used to under Roy. It's not a substitute for results but at least it gives me that feeling that we're nearly there.

[SalifSaysShutIt]

Agree with the sentiments about Gerrard. His goal against United, and his cameo the other day showed what we really lack in attack. He was quicker, sharper and more direct than Henderson or Adam had been all game. Hope he can stay healthy and is starting games real soon. A healthy Gerrard and a new (good) striker would reinvigorate the team I think.

Our back four were solid as usual, the goal was a little freakish if a bit clumsy on Adam's part. Enrique maybe the best left back in the league this year? Agger and Skrtel partnership looks very good, again maybe the best pairing in the league this year. Jamie is likely not going to get a game until one of them gets injured/suspended. Maxi should clearly play more. He knows how to get into good attacking positions, and the bottom line is that he scores goals. Downing was better today for me than he has been, he used his pace a few times and ran at defenders, delivered a good number of crosses. He's still not creating enough dangerous situations for the opposition though, if you get my meaning.

Anyway, I think we should get El-Hadji Diouf in, Kenny could really work wonders with him I think.

[redk84]

deja vu. Everything that needs to be said about the game against Blackburn has been said in the aftermath of previous games.

There is literally nothing new to say good or bad.

EXCEPT.....Stevie's back 

[rafa4eva]

Degs, Aristotle and sexy mistletoe - good posts with good points and agree with the assessments of our new players ...

We should not forget that we as a side do not have any European action, that's a massive plus but also a major concern IF we end up with European commitments.... Could this team deal with the league and the cl? IMO no, not based on how we are dealing with this seasons commitments...

We are more open, no bad thing but I def feel there is a throw of the dice element to our play.... Hence the open gaps and fef more end to end play, we attack, they attack, we attack...Same scenario for big and small teams...

Losin Lucas def hasn't helped, we will struggle with henderson and adams as a middle 2, they need a 3rd player and I still believe a 4231/ 433 with the players in hand...

Also i personally hate 442 , I never thought kyut and Suarez played well together, for me it was always a front 3 with
Maxi letting all 3 rove around as an attacking pack, those 3 would be my pref still.....

Thought gerrad as well showed how good his passing is.... You could tell the quality of football increased .... But downing is a liability, along with Carroll at the mo.... Carroll seems to have picked up Heskey disease .... Which makes big strapping fellas unable to win the ball..

Let's just hope something clicks cause of it doesn't in January....we will need to think about how we fix the weaknesses....

[steveeastend]

First I wanna say that I think we are playing good, sometimes great football. We are dominating, our defending is great, our passing is good, the organisation works and the team looks fluid most of the times.

But a soon as we are getting closer to the box we are running out of ideas. And that´s because we are lacking quality in our attack play and if it needed any proof for that then Gerrard coming on showed exactly the top talent needed here. He was a class above anybody else in our midfield and showed exactly what we are missing here.

The way Kenny solved our problems in defending was impressive and just what you would expect from a top manager. He first gave them players the opportunity to put it right. As soon as it was clear that it wouldn´t work he stepped in, benched Carra and put more emphasis on our defending as a unit. And it worked.

To me, the message of accepting a Carroll offer in january is a sign that he is about to solve our problems in attack and I am curious how everything will be turning out here.

We are lucky that neither Arsenal, nor Chelsea or Spurs seem to be able to put down a run of wins and hopefully we will be ready in time for our goal of this season: Finishing 4th.

[stroller]

Anyway, I think we should get El-Hadji Diouf in, Kenny could really work wonders with him I think.

stroller says shut it!

[Red_Isle_Chap]

Some excellent posts in here. I've "calmed" down since the game yesterday, or at least I had until i stupidly went into the transfer thread.

I'll be utterly honest here, I think there's 3 players in our current first team squad that shouldn't be getting first team football, at least not starting first team football.

The first is Downing. I've tried to stay positive with the lad, I really have, but he's struggling badly now and it doesn't matter if he's on either wing. If we're being perfectly honest, Downing was bought with Carroll in mind, but neither seem able to get on each others wavelengths. There were a couple of times yesterday when Downing received the ball in space and running at the defence when I did move to the edge of my seat, only to sit back a moment later with yet another woeful attempt at a cross or pass. His end product is non existent, and has been all season. Very worrying.

Charlie Adam. He looked like a lame horse out there yesterday, being led off to be put down. It's no coincidence that our midfield improved 100% with Gerrard on in his place. Suddenly Henderson had someone competent and able to play in the position, and a partner who actually has an engine that's not seized and in need of repair. His passing was awful, his decision making was awful, defensively he's the biggest liability on the team but a country mile and I'll be honest here, he's a very big and glaring reason why we were so poor yesterday.

Andy Carroll. Whoever said it earlier in the thread is spot on. At Newcastle the entire team was designed to make him score and it worked very well. Here, he needs to do a lot, lot more. But that being said he still had 3 chances to find the net. Part of me is saying "the finishing was pathetic" whilst the other is saying "what do you expect with that being only his 4th start in the prem all season". Unfortunately we play teams that set up primarily not to get beat by us and maybe nick something if they're lucky. All 3 of the lads i've mentioned have never played in teams that face this before and i honestly am struggling to see the potential in them to adapt to having to break down "park the bus" teams.

let's be perfectly honest, that was the bottom team in the league who were already missing a fair few of their players and we struggled badly. Yeah we passed it ok at times, but how many times did we really work the keeper during the game? How many times did we put in brilliant crosses that were begging to be put away? How many times did anyone other than Luis beat their man and look dangerous?

It's really, really worrying. Why wasn't Jay playing yesterday? I thought his suspension was over? Would have made a massive difference to the gaping holes in midfield that were there yet again yesterday.

I've been saying it for a while, but Jan could be very interesting. But you look at the table and you look where we should be if we could fucking finish and if i had any left i'd be tearing my hair out.

[1021]

I'm sticking to the round tables, threads I have enjoyed reading when the dust has settled rather than the instant 'oh, my God we are doomed' or 'we're gonna win the league I tells ya' depending on the result. I love RAWK, I wouldn't have spent as much time on here as I have, or posted as much if I didn't enjoy it but at times I feel those coming on here telling the the idiots and kneejerkers that they haven't a 'fucken clue' are just as bad as the idiots and kneejerkers and can prevent discussion and debate.

On to the match. It was a frustrating 90 minutes, yet nothing new. I was late getting into the ground as I raced into the Kemlyn just as the names were being read out, I met the two fellas I go the match with and they pointed to their keeper and said to me 'we were saying they may as well hand him the champagne now'. It has been that way at Anfield this season, frustrating, repetative, you could almost script it.

I was reading some excellent posts from Al555 last night after the match where he was highlighting some of the parrallels between our season and Manchester City in Roberto Mancini's first year in charge. It was very intresting to see how similarly we have reacted to the heavy investment and high turn over of players in the first team as much as the squad. We have impressed in some matches and had people saying 'oh, we are truning into a good footballing side' and we have come out of matches looking distinctly average.

I have no problem with us building. I haven't seen Liverpool win the title and though as a Liverpool supporter I have high standards I have never gone into a season saying 'ay Gerard/Rafa/obviously not Roy/Kenny I want X, Y, and Z this season and we need to by 6 points clear by November'. I have never been a Liverpool supporter when we have had the strongest squad in the league, and have never expected us to win the league (though I let myself dream after that brilliant start in 2002 and after we beat United 4-1 in 2009).

I believe fully in Kenny/Comolli's plan for Liverpool Football Club, I think they are making the right moves and making the right steps. Our first team isn't near the standard of the fantastic starting XI Rafa built the year we came so close, but the squad is better balanced and we are ready I feel over the next couple of transfer windows to get close to that standard and City and United's today.

But just as this is a project and we have to expect disapointing results along the way and frustrating afternoons along with trips to Anfield where we will blow away opponents and 'send out a message'. I think it is also acceptable to acknowledge that certain performances, regardless of the project are not acceptable, and I left Anfield yesterday with similar emotions to the game against Wigan when Bramble scored in the last minute. I thought to myself really there is no excuse for not beating them.

It was not only a Blackburn side that was bottom of the table, with supporters who had travelled more with the intention of singing KEAN OUT than supporting their side, with half their first team XI out, half of the side disintrested in playing for their side or manager, but they didn't even play well, or 'out of their skin', or 'defended like warriors' or whatever cliche the press shoehorn into their match reports to describe these apparent brave performances at Anfield. Norwich and Swansea were fantastic, and as much as we were frustrating I stood at the end clapping both sets of players off and said fair enough they were value for the point. Blackburn weren't. We gifted them a point at Anfield, where other sides have battered them.

I said in the Summer, I have said since, and I will probably say it again, but I feel we made errors in our handling of the midfield last summer. Henderson is a great prospect, I have liked the look of him since he arrived (having, admittedly seen little of him at Sunderland), he has good touch, good vision, and good potential. Charlie Adam, is a intresting player who would be a great addition to any squad, whether he should be starting for us is a different debate, but he has good offensive qualities and has started life at Liverpool well. But I feel letting both Meireles and Aquilani go was a big error, just as the presumption Steven Gerrard would be fit to play in a high percentage of games was a mistake.

We have lacked guile in the final third, we have lacked goals from midfield, and Aquilani and Raul can provide them. We did it for fun during the run in last season and mcuh of that was down to Raul who was instrumental in much of our good football and scored a number of goals, crucial goals by ghosting into the box. There were three sperate occasions, to my memory in which a ball was played across the face of goal and there was no red shirt in sight. The most frustrating when Maxi won a ball he had no right to win from a similar position to his equaliser, the ball dropped perfectly into the box and nothing came of it. It was criminal.

Gerrard obviously excels at this. But as I have said and as Aristotle pointed out superbly in his inital post in this thread, as much as we love what Steven Gerrard has done in a red shirt and as much as we hope he can continue to do it for the remainer of his career we have to build a squad that copes without him, rather than rues his absence and has supporters saying, two years since he has strung together a succession of quality performances together (for one reason and another) 'it'll be alright when Stevie gets back'. United don't do it. City won't do it. Chelsea cope without Lampard. So why LFC have left themselves in this position is beyond me.

[Vulmea]

Thought this was the well considered, none knee jerking thread? Seem to have stumbled into the we're all doomed, isn't it terrible thread?

We've missed more chances than any other team - we've also created more - for this to be explained as we aren't good enough is missing the bleedin point isn't it? Someone's cup is well and truly half empty eh?

The keeper pulling off one blinding save in a match isn't a result of our players being crap its a result of the keeper pulling off a blinding save.  The 'we need better finishing' argument is fine and even yesterday there were at least two occasions when a better finish would have been a goal ok but offside goals, keeper mistakes, mishit shots, deflections, the ball just to one side of the keeper, through their legs,   etc happen all the time - just not to us currently.

Belief is a funny old thing in football - keepers are turning up believing they'll have  a blinder, our strikers are believing they can't score  - whether its  a stand in keeper, a lad playing against his idols, first time at anfield etc etc it shouldn't really matter but it does - every team seems to have a story at the moment - whether is bottom of the table blackburn, resurgent Wigan, plucky Swansea, plucky Norwich, unbeatable City...blah blah blah and next its Super Krul - we should be planting the seed now that he's had so much luck all season friday he's going to have  a mare, that some team is going to be obliterated and its going to be sooner rather than later and that when they do all the others will follow
someone will get a battering, there will be a game thats going to see everything we hit go in, maybe three games, maybe half a season - the players and the fans need to keep believing that - the crowd have lost that belief and so have the players and now its starting to look like some self fulfilling prophecy

we need a change - we need to believe that when we shoot its going to go in - how Kenny makes that happen I dont know - a change of personnel, put them in blindfolds, tell them to use ttheir wrong foot,  stand on one leg and spit over their left shoulder, he needs to get them to play without the fear of missing which is crucifying us-  I've no bleedin idea how but somehow he needs to tap in to that inner voice in people , the one thats currently telling people same ol, same ol as soon as we miss a chance - and get it to shut the fuck up along with those blerts who are judging players based on undeserved results,  when the lads are low in confidence but still outplaying teams

didn't think we played great yesterday but again we did more than enough to win regardless of the percieved performances of certain players - other teams turn games where they dont deserve to win into victory we do the reverse = we need to chnage that around and that less to do with whether Carroll is good or very good and more to do with whether he believes he's going to score.

[Gnurglan]

Funny thing is, I thought Carroll hid all the time. He was practically getting a piggy back off Samba and then stopped going into the box altogether. Why on Earth he was popping up at left back or 20 yards from Luis I don't know.

Thing is, we're trying to play Suarez in two different positions at once - as a finisher and as a forward between the lines. I guess being both Torres and Luis Garcia is beyond even his capabilities.

Agree. I think Carroll made Samba's life easier, not harder.

With Suarez, that's exactly the problem I see. We need to decide where we want him. Either we make him our main striker and then he needs to lead the line. Stay in the box and do the majority of the work in there. Or we make him our main creator and then we need another player who can lead the line. Either pick is fine with me. Suarez has a great goalscoring record (let be not with us) and he sure can create, but he can't fill both roles all the time.

I'm tempted to try him as the main striker. Perhaps he's becoming too important to the team? Perhaps we rely on him for everything and as a result, other players don't feel the urge to make a real impact on the game? So limit Suarez' role as a creator, force others to fill that role and leave Suarez to finish. Maybe it won't work, but I'd be tempted to try as things aren't working at the moment. It may even happen automatically now that Gerrard is back in business, in a typical creative role.

[redoneusa]

There was a clip when Downing whipped a decent ball in, someone knocked it back in from the wing and Carroll didn't even look - gave up on the ball even though it was still in play.

Still believe in the team but they really need to start delivering in vital games like this. Clearly we have missed Lucas and Gerrard. I thought Gerrard made a great return.

I don't know how many more games we are going to claim the keeper played a blinder, the ref robbed us and the list goes on. Truth of the matter is these are must win games, we have walked away with almost bugger all from teams like QPR, Swansea and now Blackburn. Believing we didn't win this won because of the blinder of a save is a big stretch.

Looking forward to us banging 5 past some team in the near future! YNWA

[downtown]

One thing about Jose:
He has been an awesome buy, very solid defensively. however he's like a beautiful cock that is well hung and hard but suffers premature ejaculation everytime it is stuck in a c*nt. in essence, pretty but mostly ineffective in the final third. Was frustrating to on monday.

[DanA]

I watched the highlights again today and I can see where Kenny is coming from. The chances were there and they were good chances.

The ball that fell to Carroll's feet (good chance)
The Maxi penalty (I feel penalty should have stood)
Downing played in by Gerrard (good chance)
Carroll's header missed open goal (good chance)
Carroll's shot in the dying seconds (good chance)
Maxi's goal (great ball by Skrtel)

Gerrard's free kick & Maxi header (half chance)
Downing's header from Bellamy cross (half chance)
Goal line save from Agger's header (half chance from corner)
Suarez free header from the corner (half chance from corner)

Am I bias or was there enough good chances to win that game? It was by no means our best game but watching the replay back I can't help but think Man United strikers would have knocked in 3-4 of those chances even on a bad day.

Moving on I don't understand the disregard for Downing's performance. I thought he was exceptional. He moved forward with purpose, his corners were superb and he was the catalyst for what should of been a penalty. That's him doing his job as far as i'm concerned. The fact that we failed to finish what he created. That's somebody else's fault not his.

Adam was poor for the second game in a row and I suspect he's worn out. He put in a hard summer of training, dropped some weight and has played well til now. He played a lot last season and with internationals it's too much football for him. Unfortunately we are thread bare for defensive midfielders and he's the best available, there's not a lot of choice but to play him.

Gerrard was fantastic. He made mistakes, gifted the ball away a few times but it was his drive and intent that stood out and gave us ascendancy. Up till then we were too static and with few chances coming from the middle of the park. Gerrard was a wrecking ball in the middle of the park smashing apart there defence. 90 minutes with him on the field and there would have been twice as many chances created IMO at least. Not sure we would have scored though.

Defence was a rock, goals like Blackburn's are going to happen from time to time but you can't be anything but happy about our performance down back.

So what to take away from this game?

We need cover for Lucas (and respite for Adam)
We need cover for Gerrard (someone to drive us forward)
We need a more clinical striker (someone that will finish all these chances).

We do that and I reckon we'll walk a top four spot in.

[jckliew]

Before Stevie came on, the midfield was totally sterile. Considering the type of opposition, we have reason to be very worried.......

[Redeo]

It is becoming silly to keep mentioning goalkeepers, as in the OP. It is not about them. It never was. The problems are bigger and our management should realize that and adjust ASAP. Saying we do 80-90% of the stuff right, as Kenny did, doesn't help.

We probably need more class in the middle (Gerrard should help) and up front. Simply, we need class to score goals when going gets tough so that we can build confidence, and push on. That is what all of the teams above us in the table are doing. If we don't buy major additions in January, the only way we will qualify for CL is if Steve remains healthy and has a stellar 2nd part of the season. After all, we are again dependent on the captain for our fortunes.

What is becoming increasingly clear at this point is that Kenny and Commolli have significantly overestimated the impact that Carroll, Henderson and Adam would have this season.

I fear that if we do not improve quickly we could spiral further downwards... Stevie's contribution is critical at this point.

[Discipline]

Leiva haters should take note. The midfield is horrible without him. 

The only positive was to see Gerrard back.

Luckily Arsenal and Chelsea both drew, both at home also against inferior opposition. One game behind fourth. But this is becoming a joke. 2-6-0 at Anfield now. 

[rushie9]

Before Stevie came on, the midfield was totally sterile. Considering the type of opposition, we have reason to be very worried.......

not when the time ADAM in, he had only few long passes to wow the fans .. thats about it ...

adam just could push up further down ... so up to the side to do something ... which is hard when opp "park the bus" ...

[Redeo]

I watched the highlights again today and I can see where Kenny is coming from. The chances were there and they were good chances.

The ball that fell to Carroll's feet (good chance)
The Maxi penalty (I feel penalty should have stood)
Downing played in by Gerrard (good chance)
Carroll's header missed open goal (good chance)
Carroll's shot in the dying seconds (good chance)
Maxi's goal (great ball by Skrtel)

Gerrard's free kick & Maxi header (half chance)
Downing's header from Bellamy cross (half chance)
Goal line save from Agger's header (half chance from corner)
Suarez free header from the corner (half chance from corner)

Am I bias or was there enough good chances to win that game? It was by no means our best game but watching the replay back I can't help but think Man United strikers would have knocked in 3-4 of those chances even on a bad day.

Moving on I don't understand the disregard for Downing's performance. I thought he was exceptional. He moved forward with purpose, his corners were superb and he was the catalyst for what should of been a penalty. That's him doing his job as far as i'm concerned. The fact that we failed to finish what he created. That's somebody else's fault not his.

Adam was poor for the second game in a row and I suspect he's worn out. He put in a hard summer of training, dropped some weight and has played well til now. He played a lot last season and with internationals it's too much football for him. Unfortunately we are thread bare for defensive midfielders and he's the best available, there's not a lot of choice but to play him.

Gerrard was fantastic. He made mistakes, gifted the ball away a few times but it was his drive and intent that stood out and gave us ascendancy. Up till then we were too static and with few chances coming from the middle of the park. Gerrard was a wrecking ball in the middle of the park smashing apart there defence. 90 minutes with him on the field and there would have been twice as many chances created IMO at least. Not sure we would have scored though.

Defence was a rock, goals like Blackburn's are going to happen from time to time but you can't be anything but happy about our performance down back.

So what to take away from this game?

We need cover for Lucas (and respite for Adam)
We need cover for Gerrard (someone to drive us forward)
We need a more clinical striker (someone that will finish all these chances).

We do that and I reckon we'll walk a top four spot in.

I agree with the sentiment. The reality is we are not making enough chances proportionate to the quality of our squad (strikers in particular). Simply put, we need to create more of better chances to regularly win!

[lionel_messias]

I watched the highlights again today and I can see where Kenny is coming from. The chances were there and they were good chances.

The ball that fell to Carroll's feet (good chance)
The Maxi penalty (I feel penalty should have stood)
Downing played in by Gerrard (good chance)
Carroll's header missed open goal (good chance)
Carroll's shot in the dying seconds (good chance)
Maxi's goal (great ball by Skrtel)

Gerrard's free kick & Maxi header (half chance)
Downing's header from Bellamy cross (half chance)
Goal line save from Agger's header (half chance from corner)
Suarez free header from the corner (half chance from corner)

Am I bias or was there enough good chances to win that game? It was by no means our best game but watching the replay back I can't help but think Man United strikers would have knocked in 3-4 of those chances even on a bad day.

Moving on I don't understand the disregard for Downing's performance. I thought he was exceptional. He moved forward with purpose, his corners were superb and he was the catalyst for what should of been a penalty. That's him doing his job as far as i'm concerned. The fact that we failed to finish what he created. That's somebody else's fault not his.

Adam was poor for the second game in a row and I suspect he's worn out. He put in a hard summer of training, dropped some weight and has played well til now. He played a lot last season and with internationals it's too much football for him. Unfortunately we are thread bare for defensive midfielders and he's the best available, there's not a lot of choice but to play him.

Gerrard was fantastic. He made mistakes, gifted the ball away a few times but it was his drive and intent that stood out and gave us ascendancy. Up till then we were too static and with few chances coming from the middle of the park. Gerrard was a wrecking ball in the middle of the park smashing apart there defence. 90 minutes with him on the field and there would have been twice as many chances created IMO at least. Not sure we would have scored though.

Defence was a rock, goals like Blackburn's are going to happen from time to time but you can't be anything but happy about our performance down back.

So what to take away from this game?

We need cover for Lucas (and respite for Adam)
We need cover for Gerrard (someone to drive us forward)
We need a more clinical striker (someone that will finish all these chances).

We do that and I reckon we'll walk a top four spot in.

I think you nailed it. Our defence is excellent and we need to add depth to defensive midfield almost as much as we need a striker. We are getting by with Adam / Henderson but a proper DM would allow our more attacking midfielders (that's most of em') to get forward more naturally.

I think we are in a phase that we will get over pretty quickly. Teams that are less expensive than us have better efficiency up front. It can happen, we just have the wrong balance up top and a difficult situation with an expensive striker, Carroll.

Whilst disappointing atm, I fully expect Kenny will make a case to the owners, that the right action now in the transfer window and we can still make 4th spot - it will be tighter than a duck's arse though!

[Hank Scorpio]

I wonder how much of the missed chances and disjointed periods in the game are down to the team being newly formed with many players with less than a year's experience with the side.  And yet we are still creating chances and managing to keep clean sheets.

I think what Dalglish has done is address serious issues within the setup and attitude.  He has established a clear style of play, one for anyone to follow.  It is about passing the ball and moving into space to receive it.  He's tried to fill the team with as many footballers as he can manage, which is why the minutes for Kuyt and Carragher have been limited.  Younger players have been given an opportunity in the hope that they can build upon the experience in the future.

Who knows when this team will start to deliver results consistently but I guess it could be as soon as the second half of this season.  As long as they keep on playing in this way, the goals will come and then so will the results.  Gerrard will bring back that will to win and hopefully he can remain fit now.  It may the catalyst the other players need, although you do hope he curbs some of that fire he had earlier in his career.

[John C]

While some people view this as a transitional era, others strangely viewed the game against Blackburn as a transition for Kenny. I’m startled by the amount of posters questioning the managers position simply because we failed to win. I know people can state that its better to win ugly than to draw but the performances are promising. And that’s another view I differed with others about, enthused by how we were playing I made the error of looking at the half time thread to be greeted “shite” awful” etc. This was repeated tediously in the post match thread until it was locked.

One poster said immediately after the game “Kenny needs to kick arse in that dressing room” then 24 hours later “I’ve just watched it again and we’re quite good”.

We’re simply lacking cutting edge and composure in and around the box. Our approach play can be both steady and fast-paced but at least we are building to the positions to create danger. When we get there we simply don’t capitalise, we’re either wasteful or not clinical. We’re not lacking creativity or invention though. Its just the wrong or long ball that fails us.

Suarez misses more than Carroll so he can’t be blamed for the dearth of goals. Carroll still hasn’t proved anything, he’s neither proved he’s on the verge of a good run nor that he’s poor and an article should be placed for his sale in the Post Office window next week. But even the photoshop thread unwittingly provides the doubters additional support for their case rather than thinking he may be marking space.

The question is could we have won the game comfortably? The answer is once again yes. And whether people like the sentiment or not, luck isn’t always on our side.
Even Mark Lawrenson brilliantly summed up our misfortune of not gaining all points on so many occasions this season.

I’d welcome more CM support in and around the box and the gift of SG may provide that now, (What would I give for a McMahon in this side), but the shear panic after that game was needless and disrespectful to the manager.

[12Kings]

The entire team need to get their act together including coaching staff and whatever that strategic analysts are feeding through to them. It all very well about being unlucky or not having luck. I don't buy that. You make luck yourself, and all these last minute chances are still not clean cut enough, they have to fight luck, make the space, be more decisive, make more space for each other, their so congested as a unit it does not surprise me they can not get through clean on goal without facing a baracade or 11 men or a dodgy offside.

It's time to start stepping it up now, it is partly the strike forces fault, even Surez for all his skill and intelligence needs either some help or new shooting boots, the work rate he puts in to get the ball in front of goal with his solo efforts is his downfall as he's knackered by the time he releases the trigger. And Carroll no excuse anymore, sort yourself out lad, it's as if your half asleep. Wake up or move on, do you really want to be he anymore? Did you ever? Or is that the party piece your playing now?

[royhendo]

Even Mark Lawrenson brilliantly summed up our misfortune of not gaining all points on so many occasions this season.

That about summed it up for me. It feels weird to cite Lawrenson, doesn't it? But I agreed with him. A side that's a couple of tweaks away from scariness.

[John C]

The entire team need to get their act together including coaching staff and whatever that strategic analysts are feeding through to them. It all very well about being unlucky or not having luck. I don't buy that. You make luck yourself, and all these last minute chances are still not clean cut enough, they have to fight luck, make the space, be more decisive, make more space for each other, their so congested as a unit it does not surprise me they can not get through clean on goal without facing a baracade or 11 men or a dodgy offside.

But bad luck dealt us a bad blow when a clear on-side move, not a "dodgy offside" resulted in both a goal being disallowed and a penalty being refused.

After witnessing an attacking display resulting in an own goal, questionable decisions and two heroic clearances people are entitled to reflect and say "that was fucking hard luck that".

We all know the players need to sharpen up mate, but its only in that key danger area. Even our best player wants to beat a man twice rather than slot it early to a team-mate.

[killer-heels]

I must be getting soft after years of watching poor wingers for us and maybe my standards have dropped but I thought Downing played well.

[Redstafarian]

The criticism of Downing is disappointing. He played a very good game, and just lacked the finishing edge, as he has all season. He did everything that could be asked of a winger, beating his man with ease again and again, putting the ball in the box again and again, usually quite well. A goal is all he needs. For me, Adam was disappointing today, but not many others, shooting from far out too often, trying for the money shot, and quite frankly, showing all the finesse of a poorly trained donkey, not for the first time this season either. Gerrard was a breath of fresh air, a reminder to the new boys of how it should be done. I'm still excited by kenny's Liverpool, and when it all clicks, Carroll included, we will be amazing. It will happen, just keep the faith.

[Hank Scorpio]

Downing is not a bad player at all.  In fact, I think he is a very good one.  He just needs to have that cutting edge in terms of mentality.  You can tell there are confidence issues but it hasn't stopped him from setting up sitters for Carroll, Kuyt and Suarez plus how close he has come in terms of a goal.  Perhaps Gerrard can help him over the finish line.

[Joe_Singh]

Downing is not a bad player at all.  In fact, I think he is a very good one.  He just needs to have that cutting edge in terms of mentality.  You can tell there are confidence issues but it hasn't stopped him from setting up sitters for Carroll, Kuyt and Suarez plus how close he has come in terms of a goal.  Perhaps Gerrard can help him over the finish line.

I thought he started very brightly against Blackburn, he really had a good go at their left back showing him a clean set of heels, but as the game went out and the team deflated so did Downing.

[jillcwhomever]

Thought this was the well considered, none knee jerking thread? Seem to have stumbled into the we're all doomed, isn't it terrible thread?

We've missed more chances than any other team - we've also created more - for this to be explained as we aren't good enough is missing the bleedin point isn't it? Someone's cup is well and truly half empty eh?

The keeper pulling off one blinding save in a match isn't a result of our players being crap its a result of the keeper pulling off a blinding save.  The 'we need better finishing' argument is fine and even yesterday there were at least two occasions when a better finish would have been a goal ok but offside goals, keeper mistakes, mishit shots, deflections, the ball just to one side of the keeper, through their legs,   etc happen all the time - just not to us currently.

Belief is a funny old thing in football - keepers are turning up believing they'll have  a blinder, our strikers are believing they can't score  - whether its  a stand in keeper, a lad playing against his idols, first time at anfield etc etc it shouldn't really matter but it does - every team seems to have a story at the moment - whether is bottom of the table blackburn, resurgent Wigan, plucky Swansea, plucky Norwich, unbeatable City...blah blah blah and next its Super Krul - we should be planting the seed now that he's had so much luck all season friday he's going to have  a mare, that some team is going to be obliterated and its going to be sooner rather than later and that when they do all the others will follow
someone will get a battering, there will be a game thats going to see everything we hit go in, maybe three games, maybe half a season - the players and the fans need to keep believing that - the crowd have lost that belief and so have the players and now its starting to look like some self fulfilling prophecy

we need a change - we need to believe that when we shoot its going to go in - how Kenny makes that happen I dont know - a change of personnel, put them in blindfolds, tell them to use ttheir wrong foot,  stand on one leg and spit over their left shoulder, he needs to get them to play without the fear of missing which is crucifying us-  I've no bleedin idea how but somehow he needs to tap in to that inner voice in people , the one thats currently telling people same ol, same ol as soon as we miss a chance - and get it to shut the fuck up along with those blerts who are judging players based on undeserved results,  when the lads are low in confidence but still outplaying teams

didn't think we played great yesterday but again we did more than enough to win regardless of the percieved performances of certain players - other teams turn games where they dont deserve to win into victory we do the reverse = we need to chnage that around and that less to do with whether Carroll is good or very good and more to do with whether he believes he's going to score.

Totally agree with the sentiment of this thread Vulmea. Also as you said belief does play a huge part in not just football, but virtually anything you do in life. Right now I would love to look into the mindset of the players. Belief is a mighty word, as it is something that can make you or break you just as easily. Believe in yourself  and there is no limit to what you can achieve. If something is missing though, it is like running around a track and never quite making the finishing line, you doubt yourself then others and before you know it you convince yourself that nothing will change, hence you are in a rut that is never ending. One thing that people need who suffer from a lack of belief is the support of others, they cannot overcome it without some help. I have no doubt Kenny and the staff will be doing all they can, to overcome this, but everyone at Anfield also needs to play their part too. 

[stevensr123]

Downing is not a bad player at all.  In fact, I think he is a very good one.  He just needs to have that cutting edge in terms of mentality.  You can tell there are confidence issues but it hasn't stopped him from setting up sitters for Carroll, Kuyt and Suarez plus how close he has come in terms of a goal.  Perhaps Gerrard can help him over the finish line.

To be honest though, he has created some great chances in a lot of games IMO, We just can't see to take them. Like others have said, if it was man untied creating these chances, they would have probably smashed 4-5 against the likes of wigan and blackburn.

Our football IMO has been fantastic in many ways, we are creating the most chances in the league at the moment, and our defence is the best, not only that but the majority of games we have played this season, we have controlled the game entirely and created so many chances. I would said only against spurs have we looked defensively weak and did not create chances.

Be it luck or poor finishing, we really should be finishing some of these chances though, the last minute against blackburn summed it up for me, Two amazing chances and the keeper pulls of a world class save, and the defender clears it off the line.


We just don't have enough natural finishers in the team, infact have we got even one? Apart from Gerrard who is pretty fuckin' brilliant at finishing, who has been productive and took there chances this season?

Suarez needs a million chances before he scores, carrol just can't score at the moment, bellamy can but can't play every match, downing hasn't even scored a goal etc

We need someone like Dzeko ( in the same mould) or Huntelaar , someone who can fuckin' put it in the back of the net, because right now, noone seems to be capable of finishing these great chances.

[Discipline]

I thought he started very brightly against Blackburn, he really had a good go at their left back showing him a clean set of heels, but as the game went out and the team deflated so did Downing.

The guy was 17....