Topic: The Adam and Lucas partnership.

[moses]

I think that whilst Adam is probably a better player than Spearing, a Spearing-Lucas partnership is a far better combination. Watch this video of Lucas' performance vs Fulham last year:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Cumlpc9Z4oM" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/Cumlpc9Z4oM</a>

Note the numerous times where Lucas tackles a player, or presses him into a mistake, after which Spearing completes the job, either by pressing/ tackling the next player or picking up the loose ball. I'm sure you would see the same things from Lucas in a video of Spearing's performance. As Adam does little defensive work, this isn't happening at the moment, so that when Lucas does force a mistake, the opposition are able to recover and maintain possession. The video also shows that Lucas is more able to join the attack when he is playing with Spearing, as he knows that if he gets caught out, Jay is there to cover him. This is not the case when he plays with Adam.

I like. Always said Jay and Lucas in midfield is a better combination than Adams+Lucas

[rossipersempre]

You have to question the decision makers in letting both Aquilani and Mereles go quite frankly

Definitely should have kept at least one. Short-sighted.

[Timbo's Goals]

Fulham 2 Liverpool 5

This is so depressing to watch, what was it, 15 or so games ago?  And all bar 1 of these players are still here, yet we haven't been anywhere near this level of performance this season, bar maybe bits of the Carling Cup games, because players integral to this team can't buy a game in the premier league.  Sad, very sad.

I see this game and the one that immediately followed it as something of a microcosm of what we've seen often in the same game under Kenny - especially since the summer. The brilliant followed by the mundane. 

For the Fulham game we played with Kuyt and Suarez up front with a midfield of Lucas and Spearing flanked by Maxi and Meireles. Kuyt and Suarez pressed like fuck and Kuyt scored for the fifth successive game.

All told we looked awesome with these players in this formation. The key was surely the pressing and movement of Kuyt and Suarez up front which set the game pattern by being beautifully equipped to hound and hurry Fulham at the back. In turn this enabled the midfield quartet and both full backs to not only grab hold of the game but to constantly provide support to the front two. Pretty soon it was overwhelming the opposition.

Six days later against Spurs - admittedly better opponents with the bit between their teeth - Kenny replaced the injured Meireles by switching Kuyt to the flank and bringing in Carroll up front. The upshot was an entirely different performance. I accept it's impossible to gauge just how much our own wretched performance on the night was down to the Carroll being incapable of replicating Kuyt's energy and urgency alongside Suarez [and how much this in turn undermined the overall level of team performance] and how much was due to Spurs simply providing better opposition than Fulham.

But, whatever it was down to, what a sobering contrast it provided. The rampant display 6 days earlier was replaced by an awful one. Is it any wonder I crave seeing the Fulham type personnel and formation and despair so much when Carroll, Henderson and - latterly - Downing are Kenny's first choice. Charlie I can just about live with - provided the other three are not first choice. But as I say, the key for me is the mobility and pressing of the front two. It is that for me which provides the platform for the rest of the team. 

[Timbo's Goals]

You have to question the decision makers in letting both Aquilani and Mereles go quite frankly

I agree. It hurts and I posted the following in the Swansea thread in response to someone who questioned my own criticism of the decision not to strive to keep them at the club as Levy and Redknapp did with Modric.

And are you honestly telling me you wouldn't sooner we still had that £70 million in our pocket and still have truly class acts like Aquilani and Meireles in our line up than what you've seen from Henderson, Downing and Carroll?

[rossipersempre]

I agree. It hurts and I posted the following in the Swansea thread in response to someone who questioned my own criticism of the decision not to strive to keep them at the club as Levy and Redknapp did with Modric.

And are you honestly telling me you wouldn't sooner we still had that £70 million in our pocket and still have truly class acts like Aquilani and Meireles in our line up than what you've seen from Henderson, Downing and Carroll?

To be fair Timbo, it's the £36m re-trousered and AA plus RM retained. We were always going to spend big on a striker to replace Torres. Just unfortunate it happened to be a desperate knee-jerk splurge on a old-fashioned 23-year old CF with less than 20 PL games to his name.

[John C]

And McMahon wasn't Souness

I purposely didn't take it to that level. Sourness is a unique man of football and not many midfielders have or will ever get close to his completeness, strength and character on that pitch.

McMahon was a few notches down but was still at an outstandingly high level that didn't need good players around him to be good. He often made them good with his skill, industry and tenacity - and he won trophies.

Off topic so I apologise.

[Matt8Pie]

I agree. It hurts and I posted the following in the Swansea thread in response to someone who questioned my own criticism of the decision not to strive to keep them at the club as Levy and Redknapp did with Modric.

And are you honestly telling me you wouldn't sooner we still had that £70 million in our pocket and still have truly class acts like Aquilani and Meireles in our line up than what you've seen from Henderson, Downing and Carroll?

I was getting shot down by people saying Meireles was shit anyway, move on, trust Kenny, blah blah when I was protesting Meireles' move to Chelsea. But it was painfully obvious last season when he wasn't on the pitch just how much we missed him and looking at Adam's outfield play stats, it really left you wondering just what we were in for. Well, that's if you could be bothered to look past the MOTD chums and the cold, mis-selling Opta Stats.

I've been saying for a while about the team gelling but I honestly believe we'd be better served with Adam on the bench, or in a 3 man midfield. I'm starting to worry that 4-4-2 is going to be our formation for the season and we're gonna be on the "they're still gelling" and "it's their first season together" excuses for too long. Getting into the Champion's League is vital for next season and I think we've made a big mistake letting go of some of the personnel who I felt we needed for that push.

That said though, we can still bring in additions in January. We have the foundations in place as a squad but we really need someone top drawer in there for when Gerrard is out if we're playing 4-4-2.

I just can't shake the feeling that we've tinkered with the team too much when really, we could've just done with a few quiet additions. Andy Carroll will be a top striker but I think he's holding our team formations back to a 4-4-2.

[mulhergremista]

What is everyone's opinions on the midfield two of Adam and Lucas ?

Too many times this season I have seen our midfield concede far too much possession to the opposition. There have also been occasions were the likes of Wolves, Sunderland and Swansea have come to Anfield and overrun us for large periods.

I hold both players in high regard but worry about their mobility and ability to cover enough ground in the midfield as a partnership.  I personally believe either one or the other would work best with the more energetic and combative (fit) Steven Gerrard.

Another option would be to incorporate a midfield 3 with perhaps Spearing offering additional support? Or Gerrard playing in behind Suarez and dropping into the middle to offer support?

The best partnership ever was Meireles-Lucas, what a pity that Somebody or somebodies decided to create an English team, let Meireles go and paid inflated prices for the Englishmen.  Something is missing here.  Suarez is the one how suffer most from these changes.

Now, don~t get me wrong, I have nothing against Englishmen or any other nation.  I have something against high prices for decent Englishmen, when you could have in the same price the likes of Mata, David Luis or others, you name it. Maxi is not used, nobody remembers his hattricks, I am a little disappointed, I did not want to write about this aspect, but really, with all due respect to Adam, Downing atc. I prefered Meireles-Lucas- Suarez -Maxi (Or Kuit sometime)
I hope Suarez will not be temped to join Meireles in Chelsea..

BTW Lucas will not open in the Brazil squad this evening against Gabon, Mano decied in the last minute to use coupls or more from the same club that are used to play together, ie. Luisao and David Luis (Played in Benfica) Hulk and Kleber etc. As Lucas is the only player from Liverpool he lost his place, as did Thiago Silva, maybe Mano just wanted to rest them for the mor difficult game against Egypt.

I suppose you are happy for that, he will have some rest.  Mano knows what he is doing, this team is very lacking, many injuries etc.  So he decided to get several players from some clubs that have some experience of playing together.
The FB are not very encouraging (Dani Alves is suspenede, Marcelo did not come, Mourinho said he was injured, I even prefer Andre Santos over Fabio..
Lucas would have a tough mission to cover for all of them, so maybe it is better he does not play, let Sandro have the honour..It is always better to let a Totenham player get tired, isn~t it?

[subroc]

I wonder if when the club signed Downing, Henderson, and Adam, it may have been as a result of (1) the felt need to sign more local players due to the changes in the regulations; (2) a misguided idea to bring back the British-dominated teams of Liverpool’s heydays (3) Adam’s Scottish background which reminded Dalglish of himself and his Hollywood passes (4) runaway statistics-fixation that stressed too much on those players’ stats and not enough on whether they actually played the kind of high pressure pass and move game that Liverpool FC plays at its best (4) a fixation on promoting and signing more youthful players at lower wages because of the perceived savings in salary as well as longer term value without being concerned enough on whether they could produce the same level of performance that the team needed in the short term…

Unfortunately whatever the cause, what has happened is that not only has our midfield been substantially degraded in standard and ability, that damage has been done at the cost of about 43M in transfer funds which was most of the entire sum we gained from selling Torres. Downing and Adam should be merely squad players, while Henderson is too raw and needs to be eased in gradually. It is time for Downing to be replaced by Rodriguez, Henderson to be replaced by Bellamy or Kuyt, and Adam by Spearing in the short term and by Gerrard when he returns from injury. In December, a good winger and playmaker and centreforward have to be signed.

[Nin]

One bad game doesn't make Adam shit. A 4-4-2 definitely exposes his weaknesses defensively but it is a partnership at the end of the day, for me Lucas has to get as much blame for us failing to control the midfield and take the initiative against Swansea. Cue the "Lucas is too busy covering Adam to do anything else" responses.

[subroc]

One bad game doesn't make Adam shit. A 4-4-2 definitely exposes his weaknesses defensively but it is a partnership at the end of the day, for me Lucas has to get as much blame for us failing to control the midfield and take the initiative against Swansea. Cue the "Lucas is too busy covering Adam to do anything else" responses.

I do not understand. If Adam as his partner is not pulling his weight defensively and thus causing Lucas to be overworked covering for him surging forward, how and why should Lucas be blamed for "failing to cotnrol tjhe midfield and take the initiative against Swansea"?

Adam is not a Konchesky - he does have certain skills that are useful to the team and he is a good option in the squad at times. But he is not of the requisite all round standard that merits a first choice first team place.

[Nin]

I do not understand. If Adam as his partner is not pulling his weight defensively and thus causing Lucas to be overworked covering for him surging forward, how and why should Lucas be blamed for "failing to cotnrol tjhe midfield and take the initiative against Swansea"?

Adam is not a Konchesky - he does have certain skills that are useful to the team and he is a god option in the squad at times. But he is not of the requisite all round standard that merits a first choice first team place.

That Kenny Dalglish must be fucking stupid if he's picked him for every league game then.

[Lemieux]

That match comp vs. fulham is a good example of what Lucas is capable of as the midfielder who is given license to dictate play.  With Adam in there we are limiting Lucas too much and at the same time costing the team overall.  I don't rate Adam as a midfielder in a 4-4-2 setup, he'd be more ideal in a 4-3-3 formation right now he isn't doing enough for us.

[subroc]

That Kenny Dalglish must be fucking stupid if he's picked him for every league game then.

I thought only Steve Jobs operated on the strange idea that in the universe, there are only geniuses and bozos...

In the real world, competent and well trained people - even geniuses - make mistakes. Even systemic and repeated mistakes. For all his legendary status, Dalglish, and for that matter, myself and yourself, are no exceptions to the rule. The only thing we can do is to listen to criticism and try to honestly see if we are wrong and the criticism justified. 

For many fans on this forum, Dalglish can seemingly do no wrong as he is "the King". I support the club, but if I honestyl see a mistake, then I will mention it no matter who made it. And I think Dalglish and Commoli have made a lot of mistakes so far, but none of them are fatal (unlie Hogdson) and there is still time and opportunity to improve and get that CL qualification for next season.

[Nin]

I thought only Steve Jobs operated on the strange idea that in the universe, there are only geniuses and bozos...

In the real world, competent and well trained people - even geniuses - make mistakes. Even systemic and repeated mistakes. For all his legendary status, Dalglish, and for that matter, myself and yourself, are no exceptions to the rule. The only thing we can do is to listen to criticism and try to honestly see if we are wrong and the criticism justified. 

For many fans on this forum, Dalglish can seemingly do no wrong as he is "the King". I support the club, but if I honestyl see a mistake, then I will mention it no matter who made it. And I think Dalglish and Commoli have made a lot of mistakes so far, but none of them are fatal (unlie Hogdson) and there is still time and opportunity to improve and get that CL qualification for next season.

If Adam is as shit as everyone is making out then it's one big mistake to be making 11 games running. You need to have an element of trust in someone who's won titles before and knows what it takes. If Adam really isn't good enough then I expect him to be dropped for someone else because if anyone 'supports the club' as you say and wants the best for the club, it's Kenny.

[subroc]

If Adam is as shit as everyone is making out then it's one big mistake to be making 11 games running. You need to have an element of trust in someone who's won titles before and knows what it takes. If Adam really isn't good enough then I expect him to be dropped for someone else because if anyone 'supports the club' as you say and wants the best for the club, it's Kenny.

Dalglish seems to be trying to play them into form. He does not seem to be noticing that Adam, Henderson and Downing are not improving. That does not assure me and I am sure, many other fans as well. He does not seem to be as tactically astute as Benitez was, either.

The fact of the matter is that Dalglish has been out of the management game for more than a decade. The reason why Benitez for example had my support was not primarily that he was clearly a Liverpool fan himself and wanted what was best for the team, but principally because he was one of the most thorough and best managers whom I have ever seen. His tactical acumen came directly from his preparation which was exemplary. He shared this trait with Mourinho, and those traits make them among the best managers in the world. Even now, when he is supposed to be on a break between jobs, I recall reading that he is employing staff to analyse and study games across the European leagues and he is doing research and preparing himself thoroughly for his next job. If that level of insane obsession is necessary to excel as a manager in these days, what does more than 10 years out of the saddle do to you? Good a manager as Dalglish was in his heyday with Liverpool and Blackburn, today’s game is a different proposition and things do not stand still.

[subroc]

You have to question the decision makers in letting both Aquilani and Mereles go quite frankly

I did not and still do not believe that they wanted to leave. Particularly Meireles - who was double crossed and treated badly and a promsie to increse his salary from 30,000 a week was reneged upon by the club. They were railroaded out of the club to satisfy budgetary limits and to fulfil the vision of a young British core to the team - notwithstanding the evidence from internatinals of British players being less than international in standard.

[Timbo's Goals]

Some insightful and intelligent posts from Subroc.

However, I still feel most people are overlooking the extent to which our overall team performance level is fucked up by playing Carroll alongside Suarez in a 4-4-2. The contrast with having a mobile and determined partner [namely Dirk at the moment] for Suarez in the same 4-4-2 system is stark.

I also think such a selection would compensate for many of Adam's defensive shortcomings.

I would never have Carroll as a twin striker. In fact I would never have him in the side at all or anywhere near it from what I've seen of the poor lad so far unless there's going to be some huge metamorphosis in his playing abilities. But if he is going to be used then it has to be as a lone target man with a 5 man really hardworking midfield with decent and very hardworking wide men. And we haven't got any truly decent hardworking wide men - unless we decide to use Enrique in that role on the left.

As for the Kenny infallibility shite. I defy anybody to exceed my own admiration for the man as a player, a manager and a father figure for the entire Liverpool family after Hillsborough. But that admiration does not carry mutually exclusive clauses. If he is fucking up he is fucking up. It's nothing to do with how much we love him.

There is no denying that he has made mistakes as a manager in the past and he has almost certainly made them again in the transfer market since his return last winter. Without even the remotest shadow of a doubt he is making them with his determination to shoehorn Henderson, Downing and Carroll into the team without a single one of them showing any justification whatsoever for him doing so other than having hefty vastly inflated price tags.

Sadly it's just the way it is. And I pray Kenny comes around quickly to realising that there is still a very easy way out of the current selection fiasco by his simply coming to terms with the fact he's fucking up and playing his best side incorporating Kuyt up front with bellamy and maxi out wide week in week out. And, yes, very likely Spearing alongside Lucas to provide that additional midfield defensive insurance.

[Timbo's Goals]

One bad game doesn't make Adam shit. A 4-4-2 definitely exposes his weaknesses defensively

Not at all. Charlie is a decent enough player. Not top LFC quality centre mid but I like him as he has a lot of qualities not least a confidence in his own ability. But he is exposed if we play a 4-4-2 with carrol as part of the 2. With kuyt in the role up front, there's nowhere near the same degree of exposure of Charlie's defensive frailties since the pressing and high energy of the Kuyt/Suarez combination has eliminated much of the potential damage.

[Nin]

Dalglish seems to be trying to play them into form. He does not seem to be noticing that Adam, Henderson and Downing are not improving. That does not assure me and I am sure, many other fans as well. He does not seem to be as tactically astute as Benitez was, either.

The fact of the matter is that Dalglish has been out of the management game for more than a decade. The reason why Benitez for example had my support was not primarily that he was clearly a Liverpool fan himself and wanted what was best for the team, but principally because he was one of the most thorough and best managers whom I have ever seen. His tactical acumen came directly from his preparation which was exemplary. He shared this trait with Mourinho, and those traits make them among the best managers in the world. Even now, when he is supposed to be on a break between jobs, I recall reading that he is employing staff to analyse and study games across the European leagues and he is doing research and preparing himself thoroughly for his next job. If that level of insane obsession is necessary to excel as a manager in these days, what does more than 10 years out of the saddle do to you? Good a manager as Dalglish was in his heyday with Liverpool and Blackburn, today’s game is a different proposition and things do not stand still.

I could equally say Dalglish is one of the best managers in the world. We often forget that he's only one of two managers to have won the league with different teams. I agree Rafa is one of the most tactically astute managers in the world, but even with his tactical nous and knowledge he still came up short in the league. Tactics are only one aspect of management.

[Liverbird 2010]

This wouldnt even be getting disscussed if we had a finisher the amount of chances we have wasted is the crux of the problem.

[Nin]

Not at all. Charlie is a decent enough player. Not top LFC quality centre mid but I like him as he has a lot of qualities not least a confidence in his own ability. But he is exposed if we play a 4-4-2 with carrol as part of the 2. With kuyt in the role up front, there's nowhere near the same degree of exposure of Charlie's defensive frailties since the pressing and high energy of the Kuyt/Suarez combination has eliminated much of the potential damage.

I agree. The fact that he needs this extra protection to cover his defensie frailties is enough to conclude he isn't top Lfc quality, especially not on the level of the centre mids we've had in recent times. But I feel he offers enough creativity (which we lack in the team as a whole) to warrant a change in formation so we can get the best out of him and keep his defensive duties to a minimum.

[subroc]

I could equally say Dalglish is one of the best managers in the world. We often forget that he's only one of two managers to have won the league with different teams. I agree Rafa is one of the most tactically astute managers in the world, but even with his tactical nous and knowledge he still came up short in the league. Tactics are only one aspect of management.

True - another aspect is financial support. Benitez was hamstrung by the two Americans and Parry first and then Purslow as his nemesis MD. He never received the financial support he needed to win the Premiership. Despite that, he wheeled and dealt and managed to improve the squad and team until his penultimate season when we came so close and got 2nd with the strongest first team that LFC has had for a long, long time. All that he needed after that was real investment to sign the last 2-3 world class players to make the final push and United would not have been able to brag at beating our record Premiership haul. We know what happened after that.

What rankles now is to see Dakglish and Comolli get access to the sort of funds that Benitez would have given his eyeteeth for, and instead of signing the kind of players that enables us to play the European game that we excel at historically and since the Spanish infusion, they give us Carroll, Adam, Downing and a very raw Henderson signed at extortionate prices for most of them (except Adam). I grant you Suarez and Enrique were class signings, with Coates showing signs of being another, and bellamy made short term sense, but our transfer strategy since end of last season was not good IMHO.

Dalglish has not shown it for so long that he has to prove that he still has it in the modern game. Right now, he is doing much better than Hodgson, but the raison d' etre of this team is at least CL qualification and that will be the standard he will be judged by.

[Nin]

True - another aspect is financial support. Benitez was hamstrung by the two Americans and Parry first and then Purslow as his nemesis MD. He never received the financial support he needed to win the Premiership. Despite that, he wheeled and dealt and managed to improve the squad and team until his penultimate season when we came so close and got 2nd with the strongest first team that LFC has had for a long, long time. All that he needed after that was real investment to sign the last 2-3 world class players to make the final push and United would not have been able to brag at beating our record Premiership haul. We know what happened after that.

What rankles now is to see Dakglish and Comolli get access to the sort of funds that Benitez would have given his eyeteeth for, and instead of signing the kind of players that enables us to play the European game that we excel at historically and since the Spanish infusion, they give us Carroll, Adam, Downing and a very raw Henderson signed at extortionate prices for most of them (except Adam). I grant you Suarez and Enrique were class signings, with Coates showing signs of being another, and bellamy made short term sense, but our transfer strategy since end of last season was not good IMHO.

Dalglish has not shown it for so long that he has to prove that he still has it in the modern game. Right now, he is doing much better than Hodgson, but the raison d' etre of this team is at least CL qualification and that will be the standard he will be judged by.

I think you're forgetting that we haven't been able to attract these players because of our lack of CL football.

[NOTBORNIN1982]

The pessimistic views on the last few pages are pretty shameful. It serves well to stay way from RAWK when we don’t win a game. I wonder how things might change if we beat Chelsea? Pathetic really. The new age fan really is fickle and generally wide of the mark. 

[subroc]

I think you're forgetting that we haven't been able to attract these players because of our lack of CL football.

We managed to get Suarez and he is clearly world class. While we may hav a harder time getting other players oN Suarez' level into the team, it is not impossible. Meanwhile there is also a profusion of good players who cost much less than what our English and Scot players cost, and who have the skill, goal scoring knack, and/or skill that the former lack even if they are not world class. Just to use an example, the lack of CL did not stop Newcastle getting Ba and Hatem ben Arfa. In France and Germany, there are many players who do not go for 20M or more but who would still improve our squad.

And we already had Meireles who had already settled into our team and was a success and we could have kept Aquilani. Do you believe that they would not have provided a valuable option right about now had they been kept? Instead they are helping other teams instead - and Meireles in particular incredibly was sold to one of our major rivals for CL qualification and has strengthened them instead!

[subroc]

The pessimistic views on the last few pages are pretty shameful. It serves well to stay way from RAWK when we don’t win a game. I wonder how things might change if we beat Chelsea? Pathetic really. The new age fan really is fickle and generally wide of the mark. 

I am hardly a "new age" fan - I have been a fan of Liverpool FC for 30 years. There is also nothing fickle about my concerns - I had also expressed my reservations and concerns at the start of the season after the current raft of signings were made and Meireles and Aquilani were offloaded. I was told then that I was wrong and that Dalglish knows what he is doing. Well, there are already seen clear signs that we are now reaping the fruits of what was sowed then, and it is not a gladdening harvest...

We can be fans and support the team while being able to constructively criticise and express our concerns about the state of the team. It is not mutually exclusive and I would have thought that is obvious and does not require explanation...

[Kopite B205]

This wouldnt even be getting disscussed if we had a finisher the amount of chances we have wasted is the crux of the problem.

Yes it would. I started this thread because I was concerned by the aforementioned pair in a flat 4-4-2. Look at our home games a little more closely when both Adam and Lucas have played. Yes chances aplenty have been created, but we have no sustained control on the game over 90 minutes. Recently against Wolves and Swansea we were dominated by the opposition for long spells in the game. The lumbering Adam fails to recognise his job description entails some tracking back and closing down, whilst Lucas (who has under performed this season) is struggling to make up for his partners lack of defensive duties. 4-4-2 is dated and we need to get back to a 4-5-1 or a more flexible 4-4-1-1 pronto. Steven Gerrard is crucial to this change in formation in my opinion, but in the meantime why not try Henderson or Spearing in a midfield 3?

[Liverbird 2010]

Yes it would. I started this thread because I was concerned by the aforementioned pair in a flat 4-4-2. Look at our home games a little more closely when both Adam and Lucas have played. Yes chances aplenty have been created, but we have no sustained control on the game over 90 minutes. Recently against Wolves and Swansea we were dominated by the opposition for long spells in the game. The lumbering Adam fails to recognise his job description entails some tracking back and closing down, whilst Lucas (who has under performed this season) is struggling to make up for his partners lack of defensive duties. 4-4-2 is dated and we need to get back to a 4-5-1 or a more flexible 4-4-1-1 pronto. Steven Gerrard is crucial to this change in formation in my opinion, but in the meantime why not try Henderson or Spearing in a midfield 3?

I totally agree with everything your saying, but if we would have put our chances away against Norwich, United, Swansea & Sunderland we would be 8 points better off and not burying our chances's is the reason why we have had these 4 draws ofcourse you cant just depend on the strikers to score in every game every player apart from Reina should be trying to get on the scoresheet but they arnt, and that is what is costing us unfortunatly.

[Mutton Geoff]

The pessimistic views on the last few pages are pretty shameful. It serves well to stay way from RAWK when we don’t win a game. I wonder how things might change if we beat Chelsea? Pathetic really. The new age fan really is fickle and generally wide of the mark. 

says it all except the club did not make promises to Raul a fool individually did that and had no mandate to do it,just to pour water on the propaganda in here rather than perhaps the truth, JH nor KD made any promises to him and also it was a convenient excuse rather than he wanted to play in Europe for AWB and Chelsea, I do know the club did not think he was worth the rise and i for one agree with them he only excelled in flashes in other games he was a total nonentity who could not tackle and whimped out of challenges.

[MassDriver]

says it all except the club did not make promises to Raul a fool individually did that and had no mandate to do it,just to pour water on the propaganda in hererather than perhaps the truth, JH nor KD made any promises to him and also it was a convenient excuse rather than he wanted to play in Europe for AWB and Chelsea, I do know the club did not think he was worth the rise and i for one agree with them he only excelled in flashes in other games he was a total nonentity who could not tackle and whimped out of challenges.

Dear lord.

The revisionism here is frightening. I mean what THE FUCK?

Have you seen Meireles play for Chelsea even once this season , the way he controls and orchestrates their midfield from a deep lying position?  They average 60 % possession or more in most matches and Meireles has been a key contributor.

I know you don't like him and all but your rewriting of history is beyond belief.

[subroc]

says it all except the club did not make promises to Raul a fool individually did that and had no mandate to do it,just to pour water on the propaganda in hererather than perhaps the truth, JH nor KD made any promises to him and also it was a convenient excuse rather than he wanted to play in Europe for AWB and Chelsea, I do know the club did not think he was worth the rise and i for one agree with them he only excelled in flashes in other games he was a total nonentity who could not tackle and whimped out of challenges.

How could Henry and Dalglish make the promise to him since they were not yet in the frame at that time? The club must have made the offer to him through it representatives such as the MD or the manager at the time. The fact that new owners take over the club does not legally remove the club's obligation to carry out its promise. It continues to bind the club, and the new owners must honour it. Meireles was on only 30K a week - which is a lot of money compared to wage earners like most of us, but compared to other professional players was an insult to an international of Meireles' standing. To say it was a convenient excuse is unfair to the player - I remember reading about Meireles agitating about broken promises long before Villa Boas was signed and Chelsea came sniffing as a result. Meireles was happy to stay with the club and got on with the other players from all reports.  If your employer broke such a promise to you, would you have stayed with him if another company came with a job offer?

Furthermore to say he was not worth the raise is with respect, revisionist and completely incorrect. He was clearly the only successful signing of Hodgson's short era. He was not a good tackler nor a physical player, but no one in the club was better at making late runs into the box to score goals, and most importantly he played excellent pass and move football the way LFC have done it since Shankly's time when he copied it from Continental sides.

The truth was that he was seen as expendable since Dalglish and COmmoli were bringing in Adam and Henderson and they wanted to save on his meagre salary and get back hgis transfer fee. As soon as he was sold, Chelsea instaled him intot heir first team where he seems to have been doing very well. What a brilliant management decision - to weaken your own side and strengthen your rival's side for a mere 12M...
Thne truth is that it was a diabolically bad decision and Dalglish and Commoli were clearly wrong to sell him and worse of all to Chelsea.

[DAVID IN DUBAI]

Some insightful and intelligent posts from Subroc.

However, I still feel most people are overlooking the extent to which our overall team performance level is fucked up by playing Carroll alongside Suarez in a 4-4-2. The contrast with having a mobile and determined partner [namely Dirk at the moment] for Suarez in the same 4-4-2 system is stark.

I also think such a selection would compensate for many of Adam's defensive shortcomings.

I would never have Carroll as a twin striker. In fact I would never have him in the side at all or anywhere near it from what I've seen of the poor lad so far unless there's going to be some huge metamorphosis in his playing abilities. But if he is going to be used then it has to be as a lone target man with a 5 man really hardworking midfield with decent and very hardworking wide men. And we haven't got any truly decent hardworking wide men - unless we decide to use Enrique in that role on the left.

As for the Kenny infallibility shite. I defy anybody to exceed my own admiration for the man as a player, a manager and a father figure for the entire Liverpool family after Hillsborough. But that admiration does not carry mutually exclusive clauses. If he is fucking up he is fucking up. It's nothing to do with how much we love him.

There is no denying that he has made mistakes as a manager in the past and he has almost certainly made them again in the transfer market since his return last winter. Without even the remotest shadow of a doubt he is making them with his determination to shoehorn Henderson, Downing and Carroll into the team without a single one of them showing any justification whatsoever for him doing so other than having hefty vastly inflated price tags.

Sadly it's just the way it is. And I pray Kenny comes around quickly to realising that there is still a very easy way out of the current selection fiasco by his simply coming to terms with the fact he's fucking up and playing his best side incorporating Kuyt up front with bellamy and maxi out wide week in week out. And, yes, very likely Spearing alongside Lucas to provide that additional midfield defensive insurance.

MAXI you must be joking ?

[hide5seek]

says it all except the club did not make promises to Raul a fool individually did that and had no mandate to do it,just to pour water on the propaganda in here rather than perhaps the truth, JH nor KD made any promises to him and also it was a convenient excuse rather than he wanted to play in Europe for AWB and Chelsea, I do know the club did not think he was worth the rise and i for one agree with them he only excelled in flashes in other games he was a total nonentity who could not tackle and whimped out of challenges.

No idea if true but must admit from what I've seen so far much prefer we kept Raul and not brought Adam who is slow as fuck, tires to easily and really should't be one our main midfielders on his showing so far. If we really to buy him it should've been as a squad player.

[Hazell]

Some good posts in this thread subroc and Timbo.

[Nin]

Dear lord.

The revisionism here is frightening. I mean what THE FUCK?

Have you seen Meireles play for Chelsea even once this season , the way he controls and orchestrates their midfield from a deep lying position?  They average 60 % possession or more in most matches and Meireles has been a key contributor.

I know you don't like him and all but your rewriting of history is beyond belief.

I don't think Meireles is a regular starter for Chelsea. I think the likes of Lampard and Ramires have been more crucial in orchestrating their midfield.

[doikc]

I've always thought the myth that Meireles shits out of tackles started because he jumped out of a dangerous tackle and Gerrard went flying in and got a red card during the FA manc game. Correct me if I'm  wrong.

In a separate manc game at home last year if you watched Miereles in that game alone you could see what he offered. His runs from deep caused all sorts of problems the mancs just couldn't cope with him. He was an intelligent between the lines player and I was sorry to see the back of him.

It serves no purpose to rehash the decisions that have been made that we have no control over. I'm intrigued that with Adams failings the general consensus is that Lucas is carrying our midfield on his back. He is also covering for our slow CB. How can this be allowed to continue? we really need cover for Lucas more than any other position.

[MassDriver]

I don't think Meireles is a regular starter for Chelsea. I think the likes of Lampard and Ramires have been more crucial in orchestrating their midfield.

Think again mate. He has started almost all of their matches under Villas Boas. Ramires and Lampard are getting the goals but the deep anchoring role played by Meireles has been crucial for the team's balance. SO much for him not being suited to play in central midfield in this league. 

[Nin]

Think again mate. He has started almost all of their matches under Villas Boas. Ramires and Lampard are getting the goals but the deep anchoring role played by Meireles has been crucial for the team's balance. SO much for him not being suited to play in central midfield in this league. 

Pretty sure their regular midfield three is Lampard, Ramires and Mikel. I think Raul has mainly come off the bench in the league this season.

[NOTBORNIN1982]

I am hardly a "new age" fan - I have been a fan of Liverpool FC for 30 years. There is also nothing fickle about my concerns - I had also expressed my reservations and concerns at the start of the season after the current raft of signings were made and Meireles and Aquilani were offloaded. I was told then that I was wrong and that Dalglish knows what he is doing. Well, there are already seen clear signs that we are now reaping the fruits of what was sowed then, and it is not a gladdening harvest...

We can be fans and support the team while being able to constructively criticise and express our concerns about the state of the team. It is not mutually exclusive and I would have thought that is obvious and does not require explanation...

I really do doubt you have been a fan for 30 years... I honestly do (based on your opinions). I deplore anyone who speaks unnecessarily negative words, taking into consideration our clubs fortunes have undergone a significant  transformation in the last 12 months. I honestly can’t see how anyone who genuinely loves the club… and I really mean love, can be so unconstructive? If you look retrospectively into our situation you should be smiling.

So, we played bad against Swansea… so what!!! Kenny has not even been back a year, the team is growing and we will improve as time pass’s by. This was never going to be a quick fix. Folk need to try and remeber what we are about.