Topic: The Adam and Lucas partnership.

[rossipersempre]

Er, yeah... What's that, the loony asylum? Better get your application in, Rossi me ol' mucker!

I'll come and visit you in there when Lucas is showing off a 1-foot gold trophy in the Maracana in 2014.

[Hazell]

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/latest-news/lucas-our-most-accurate-passer

I'd rather go with Lucas and Spearing both of whom can get forward and defend.

Must admit, Spearing performed much better when in the side last season than I thought he would. I did feel we could on that, particularly with the other midfielders we had at the time. Now it seems, with the comings and goings, that he should be first choice CM. With the problems we're having with Adam, Gerrard's injury issues (not to mention that a 'base' of Spearing and Lucas would suit us better with Gerrard in a slightly more advanced role), Spearing's the player I think we're most crying out for in the middle of the park.

[Liverbird 2010]

How many more times is that 4-1 against United going to mentioned again?

Yes it was brilliant but it won us nothing. 

Since Alonso left we havent recovered and that is a fact whether people like to admit it or not and until we find that said replacement expect more of the same........

[leivapool]

Fair enough, you're disappointed with what Charlie Adam has done so far, as it seems are a lot of people, it's all about opinions. As I've said, I reckon he's done pretty well. Take a home game against Swansea, I'd rather go with Adam and Spearing (if we're going with a 4-4-2) as I believe the passing and moving and creativity would be better.

It's fine to have any opinion you like, but other posters have asked questions about your opinion to try and get you to back it up with evidence and you have ignored them.

Why would you choose Spearing over Lucas?

What do you see when you watch Lucas that makes you think Adam and Spearing would be better?

[Camarero25]

Fair enough, you're disappointed with what Charlie Adam has done so far, as it seems are a lot of people, it's all about opinions. As I've said, I reckon he's done pretty well. Take a home game against Swansea, I'd rather go with Adam and Spearing (if we're going with a 4-4-2) as I believe the passing and moving and creativity would be better.

Using the words Charlie Adam and improving pass and move in the same sentence should be banned. Adam is a pass and stand around player. Lucas, on the other hand, is perfect in a pass and move system, as seen when we demolished Birmingham, Man City, Newcastle and Fulham last season.

[Sangria]

Explain how you think swapping out Lucas for Spearing would improve our creativity and movement. I can't wait to hear it.

Lucas is better than Spearing in all aspects, and better than Adam in nearly all aspects (save perhaps for confidence in attack). However, because Lucas takes it on himself to do all the dirty work which noone else can do nearly as well as him, that's all people see in him. It's a classic lesson in selflessness. Never do it, as when you do, people will take advantage of you. Always look out for number one. Shankly would have groaned at the antithesis of his ideals.

[leivapool]

Using the words Charlie Adam and improving pass and move in the same sentence should be banned. Adam is a pass and stand around player. Lucas, on the other hand, is perfect in a pass and move system, as seen when we demolished Birmingham, Man City, Newcastle and Fulham last season.

....and when he plays for Brazil, a fine pass and move team, albeit in transistion currently.

[Buzz Killington]

Would I pick Adam over Lucas? Yes. Would I pick Spearing over Lucas? Yes. Do I believe Lucas should be one of the first names on the teamsheet? No. I can see what he offers defensively, and he's got loads of spirit, but with the ball, particularly in games at home like the Swansea one, we need a bit more. Compare our DF with theirs on the day, Leon Britton, and you can see what a more creative, progressive player at the fulcrum can do. However, unlike some on here, I wouldn't put all the blame at the feet of one player - in the case of that game, there were many reasons why their midfield dominated ours - three in the middle against 4-4-2, nothing-to-lose mentality against Anfield nervousness etc.

Fair enough mate but what would replacing Spearing with Lucas achieve? We'd have exactly the same problem we do at the moment and it's mainly due to Adam's lack of defensive discipline coupled with our 442 formation, replacing Lucas with Spearing would yield the exact same problem in my opinion and it'd proabably be worse than it is at the moment. Lucas and Spearing were brilliant at the end of last season, as they were against Stoke this season because they complement each other well. Both pressure the opposition and Jay does more than his fair share defensively, Lucas even ventures forward more when Spearing is his partner because he knows there'll be cover. I agree, it's unfair to solely blame Adam but then again he is part of the problem.

I do like Adam though but we'd be better off playing a 433 or something to get the best out of him.

[Matt8Pie]

Must admit, Spearing performed much better when in the side last season than I thought he would. I did feel we could on that, particularly with the other midfielders we had at the time. Now it seems, with the comings and goings, that he should be first choice CM. With the problems we're having with Adam, Gerrard's injury issues (not to mention that a 'base' of Adam and Lucas would suit us better with Gerrard in a slightly more advanced role), Spearing's the player I think we're most crying out for in the middle of the park.

I thought he had a bad game against Everton when Kenny came in and I feared the worst for him but he was brilliant after that. The midfield we had last season was great under Kenny, I just don't see why it has been changed so much and our results and lack of goals clearly show we've taken a step backwards for now. I really hope we get a top quality midfielder in January to replace Meireles. Adam is getting a free ride it seems in that midfield by going in week in and week out but he really is our weak link. Look at the Stoke game in the Carling Cup and how improved the midfield was and that even Hendo had his best performance for us so far without Adam in the side.

[redk84]

4-3-3

or

4-2-3-1

winner winner chicken dinner

[Sangria]

Fair enough mate but what would replacing Spearing with Lucas achieve? We'd have exactly the same problem we do at the moment and it's mainly due to Adam's lack of defensive discipline coupled with our 442 formation, replacing Lucas with Spearing would yield the exact same problem in my opinion and it'd proabably be worse than it is at the moment. Lucas and Spearing were brilliant at the end of last season, as they were against Stoke this season because they complement each other well. Both pressure the opposition and Jay does more than his fair share defensively, Lucas even ventures forward more when Spearing is his partner because he knows there'll be cover. I agree, it's unfair to solely blame Adam but then again he is part of the problem.

I do like Adam though but we'd be better off playing a 433 or something to get the best out of him.

It's an example of the view that replacing Lucas with NotLucas will automatically improve the team. It's hard to define what exactly the midfield does, but all the qualities are things which Lucas lacks because he's Lucas. Well, maybe grudgingly admit that he's hardworking, but we don't need hard work for some games, so replace him with NotLucas as much as possible.

[rossipersempre]

How many more times is that 4-1 against United going to mentioned again?

Yes it was brilliant but it won us nothing. 

Since Alonso left we havent recovered and that is a fact whether people like to admit it or not and until we find that said replacement expect more of the same........

All painfully true. Although I like to think that result at OT mentally scarred them. We've had the measure of them pretty much ever since.

[drpepe]

Lucas is better than Spearing in all aspects, and better than Adam in nearly all aspects (save perhaps for confidence in attack). However, because Lucas takes it on himself to do all the dirty work which noone else can do nearly as well as him, that's all people see in him. It's a classic lesson in selflessness. Never do it, as when you do, people will take advantage of you. Always look out for number one. Shankly would have groaned at the antithesis of his ideals.

i don't rate Adam much above average, but even so can see that he has superior 'attacking' qualities than lucas - a reflection  of the respective qualities/styles.

he certainly isn't amongst the best players around in his position, but adam's often "selfish" football is a requirement and inevitability in an attacking player, shirley? (just like the "selflessness" of lucas is fairly critical for a DM and is normal for a player in his position)

[Liverbird 2010]

The question must be asked as to why Henderson isnt playing in CM with Adam & Lucas he offers nothing on the right and was on the left a few times against Swansea, until he gets a go in CM then he will look like a bit of an uneccasery signing IMO ofcourse.

[davidg]

Lucas and Spearing in centre mid for me (with SG in front of them) as it was last season when we looked bang on. Spearing isn't a world beater, but he is energetic, a good passer and his movement and constant energy creates space for other players to play in. He rotates the ball much quicker than Adam too.

Adam has been a disappointment, I thought he was much better than what he has showed so far.

[Matt8Pie]

Lucas and Spearing in centre mid for me (with SG in front of them) as it was last season when we looked bang on. Spearing isn't a world beater, but he is energetic, a good passer and his movement and constant energy creates space for other players to play in. He rotates the ball much quicker than Adam too.

Adam has been a disappointment, I thought he was much better than what he has showed so far.

Bang on the money there.

[Hazell]

I thought he had a bad game against Everton when Kenny came in and I feared the worst for him but he was brilliant after that. The midfield we had last season was great under Kenny, I just don't see why it has been changed so much and our results and lack of goals clearly show we've taken a step backwards for now. I really hope we get a top quality midfielder in January to replace Meireles. Adam is getting a free ride it seems in that midfield by going in week in and week out but he really is our weak link. Look at the Stoke game in the Carling Cup and how improved the midfield was and that even Hendo had his best performance for us so far without Adam in the side.

Agreed. The Stoke game was a good example, we played well (Maxi was also in the side) and Stoke didn't really do awful lot with the ball (their goal came from a mistake from Coates after a long ball and their best chances came from throw in's and corners). The midfield was solid and it was ourselves who played better and created the better chances. For all the talk about Lucas 'needing to score more', that game was a good example of the whole team being in a position to create chances without compromising as much defensively.

Juts noticed that I put Adam and Lucas as the midfield 'base' when I did mean Spearing and Lucas. Amended.

[rossipersempre]

Using the words Charlie Adam and improving pass and move in the same sentence should be banned. Adam is a pass and stand around player.

Pass-and-stand-around-admire-grab-a-chip-butty-shuffle-a-bit-and-shrug-or-foul-as-you-lose-possession player, if we're being more exact like.

[rossipersempre]

Lucas is better than Spearing in all aspects, and better than Adam in nearly all aspects (save perhaps for confidence in attack). However, because Lucas takes it on himself to do all the dirty work which noone else can do nearly as well as him, that's all people see in him. It's a classic lesson in selflessness. Never do it, as when you do, people will take advantage of you. Always look out for number one. Shankly would have groaned at the antithesis of his ideals.

Spot on this.

[Liverbird 2010]

Pass-and-stand-around-admire-grab-a-chip-butty-shuffle-a-bit-and-shrug-or-foul-as-you-lose-possession player, if we're being more exact like.

 

[Danyaals Kop]

At times it will work, others it won't.

Spearing should play in some games where the pace of the opposition is quick and aggressive just to calm the tempo in the middle so we don't get dominated and out-played instead of Adam.

[itsgunnabebarnes!]

Pass-and-stand-around-admire-grab-a-chip-butty-shuffle-a-bit-and-shrug-or-foul-as-you-lose-possession player, if we're being more exact like.

hehe

[rossipersempre]

The question must be asked as to why Henderson isnt playing in CM with Adam & Lucas he offers nothing on the right and was on the left a few times against Swansea, until he gets a go in CM then he will look like a bit of an uneccasery signing IMO ofcourse.

Given he's touted as Gerrard's successor it's a bit of a mystery. Even so, I don't think given his current level and lack of confidence, he would make much difference alongside the horizontal Adam.

[Timbo's Goals]

Pass-and-stand-around-admire-grab-a-chip-butty-shuffle-a-bit-and-shrug-or-foul-as-you-lose-possession player, if we're being more exact like.

 

[Matt8Pie]

It really begs the question when a lot of people are noticing this in unison. Why is Adam still getting in the side? Is it because of his attitude and work rate in training and to being at the club? Is it for the set pieces?

[Sangria]

i don't rate Adam much above average, but even so can see that he has superior 'attacking' qualities than lucas - a reflection  of the respective qualities/styles.

he certainly isn't amongst the best players around in his position, but adam's often "selfish" football is a requirement and inevitability in an attacking player, shirley? (just like the "selflessness" of lucas is fairly critical for a DM and is normal for a player in his position)

The thing is, Lucas is technically very, very good. Even when Aquilani was around, I thought Lucas was better than him at some kinds of passing. All the attacking passes from Adam that people rave about? Lucas is technically capable of that, and more. In terms of passing technique, within the current squad only Gerrard is better. But Adam has greater confidence in trying them out, and for someone in his current position, that isn't always good. Hence my suggestion of pushing him up into the Gerrard position in a 4231, if we are going to use him, to maximise his strengths and minimise his weaknesses. The midfield base needs a certain amount of fundamentals which he doesn't have enough of.

[shanks_legend]

The thing is, Lucas is technically very, very good. Even when Aquilani was around, I thought Lucas was better than him at some kinds of passing. All the attacking passes from Adam that people rave about? Lucas is technically capable of that, and more. In terms of passing technique, within the current squad only Gerrard is better. But Adam has greater confidence in trying them out, and for someone in his current position, that isn't always good. Hence my suggestion of pushing him up into the Gerrard position in a 4231, if we are going to use him, to maximise his strengths and minimise his weaknesses. The midfield base needs a certain amount of fundamentals which he doesn't have enough of.

Aurelio

[Timbo's Goals]

It really begs the question when a lot of people are noticing this in unison. Why is Adam still getting in the side? Is it because of his attitude and work rate in training and to being at the club? Is it for the set pieces?

There's poetic license going on here.

Rossi's joke is funny but the fact is take Luis, Enrique and Bellamy out of the equation and Charlie is comfortably the only one of the other four kenny/Commoli signings who can remotely justify a starting place at the moment. He's a half decent player and has qualities. Unlike aquilani, say, he's just not at the sort of overall level that we crave and most certainly nowhere near mobile or lively enough to make up a midfield twosome against any decent passing side. Personally, however, I like him and I think he's a decent signing for what we paid.

[shanks_legend]

the thing with playing Adam further forward, this would entail him receiving the ball with his back to goal a lot more, and he doesnt have the agility to do that effectively

[Buzz Killington]

It's an example of the view that replacing Lucas with NotLucas will automatically improve the team. It's hard to define what exactly the midfield does, but all the qualities are things which Lucas lacks because he's Lucas. Well, maybe grudgingly admit that he's hardworking, but we don't need hard work for some games, so replace him with NotLucas as much as possible.

Sadly true mate. It's funny how much a 40 yard pass can mask in terms of overall display.

[davidg]

The pace of Adam's game has surprised me the most. And I don't just mean his absolute chronic lack of speed.

Every aspect of his game needs to quicken, like spotting and executing an early pass that bypasses your opposing centre mids. Crucial when you have a player like Suarez dropping off into that space and looking for an early ball to receive and turn with.

[Sangria]

Aurelio

I don't think so. Aurelio is a very good passer, and far better than you'd expect from a FB, but Lucas is technically better. Alonso is the best passer I've ever seen, and is the European style to perfection, while it astounds me just how Gerrard hits the ball to get it to where he wants it. But Lucas is the Brazilian style to a very high level.

[Sangria]

the thing with playing Adam further forward, this would entail him receiving the ball with his back to goal a lot more, and he doesnt have the agility to do that effectively

Not in the Gerrard role he won't. Although Carroll can't do the Torres role well enough for this. But then my suggestion caters for Adam, not Carroll.

[Matt8Pie]

There's poetic license going on here.

Rossi's joke is funny but the fact is take Luis, Enrique and Bellamy out of the equation and Charlie is comfortably the only one of the other four kenny/Commoli signings who can remotely justify a starting place at the moment. He's a half decent player and has qualities. Unlike aquilani, say, he's just not at the sort of overall level that we crave and most certainly nowhere near mobile or lively enough to make up a midfield twosome against any decent passing side. Personally, however, I like him and I think he's a decent signing for what we paid.

I understand what you're saying but we have a squad of players and we're not just made up of Kenny's signings. Spearing and Lucas looked much better together in midfield against Stoke than Lucas and Adam and there surely can be no arguing that, especially with a better team performance and other players stepping up.

I certainly wouldn't be adverse to seeing Adam in a 4-2-3-1 like many others with Spearing and Lucas behind him because Adam can be quite effective going forward. Henderson hasn't been given a fair go in his more natural position and I would even go as far as bringing him into the centre of the pitch in a 4-4-2 with Lucas at the moment. He looked great there against the Mancs when Lucas came off and nearly scored twice as well as sharing the defensive duty.

Adam just doesn't cut it in a 4-4-2. As davidg said, his speed on the ball is surprising and is a cause of concern. He hasn't shown he can play to a high tempo which is what we were getting used to at the end of last season.

[Camarero25]

There's poetic license going on here.

Rossi's joke is funny but the fact is take Luis, Enrique and Bellamy out of the equation and Charlie is comfortably the only one of the other four kenny/Commoli signings who can remotely justify a starting place at the moment. He's a half decent player and has qualities. Unlike aquilani, say, he's just not at the sort of overall level that we crave and most certainly nowhere near mobile or lively enough to make up a midfield twosome against any decent passing side. Personally, however, I like him and I think he's a decent signing for what we paid.

I'd agree that Adam is a decent player, and for the price we paid, a fairly good signing. However, the sentence in bold shows just how poor our transfer business was in the summer.

[Hazell]

The pace of Adam's game has surprised me the most. And I don't just mean his absolute chronic lack of speed.

Every aspect of his game needs to quicken, like spotting and executing an early pass that bypasses your opposing centre mids. Crucial when you have a player like Suarez dropping off into that space and looking for an early ball to receive and turn with.

sangria's point about playing him ahead of Spearing and Lucas is a good one, in terms of trying to minimise his weaknesses. It might also force him to quicken up in terms of his play.

[leivapool]

The frustrating thing for me though is that we do have CM options with our current 5 central midfielders, yet no matter who we've played against this season, no matter how may opposition midfielders we've been against, bar 1 match, Kenny has played the 2 central midfielders in the same system.  I kinda thought our new players whould give us flexibility.  Alas it seems not.

[rossipersempre]

The pace of Adam's game has surprised me the most. And I don't just mean his absolute chronic lack of speed.

Every aspect of his game needs to quicken, like spotting and executing an early pass that bypasses your opposing centre mids. Crucial when you have a player like Suarez dropping off into that space and looking for an early ball to receive and turn with.

I'm surprised you're surprised. His sluggishness (an apt description if ever there was one) was there for all to see when he was playing in tangerine orange last season. As were the other glaring deficiencies to his game. Of course it didn't matter because he was afforded such luxury at a club like Blackpool where he was the main man, the jumbo-sized haggis if you like, in what was effectively an attacking pub team.

Quite why people expected him to metamorphose into the Scottish Alonso, with sublime vision, light-speed intelligence and effortless technique just by breathing the same air as Dalglish, is a mystery to me.

[rossipersempre]

sangria's point about playing him ahead of Spearing and Lucas is a good one, in terms of trying to minimise his weaknesses. It might also force him to quicken up in terms of his play.

Maybe but at what point do you acknowledge that this solution - to play TWO defensive midfielders just to accommodate such a limiting player as Adam - is inherently wrong and not sustainable if we're truly serious about clawing our way back into the CL?

[leivapool]

I'm surprised you're surprised. His sluggishness (an apt description if ever there was one) was there for all to see when he was playing in tangerine orange last season. As were the other glaring deficiencies to his game. Of course it didn't matter because he was afforded such luxury at a club like Blackpool where he was the main man, the jumbo-sized haggis if you like, in what was effectively an attacking pub team.

Quite why people expected him to metamorphose into the Scottish Alonso, with sublime vision, light-speed intelligence and effortless technique just by breathing the same air as Dalglish, is a mystery to me.

So what did Dalglish so value in him?  I mean, he was hardly purchased as an afterthought was he?  Dalglish obviously rates him very highly.