Topic: Why we should keep Lucas?

[El Campeador]

In the long term if we are going to become great again do you really feel lucas is going to the type of player capable of leading the midfield of a championship winning team?

Yeah absolutely convinced of it. He's only just turned 24, and we picked him up for 6m about 3 years ago. Xabi was 24 when he came here and cost 10m, round about Lucas would fetch next year. Give the kid 5 years, and he may not turn out to be Xabi Alonso, but there's a good fucking chance he'll be Didi.

If you live in some fantasy world where we only exist to buy 29 year old Xabi Alonsos for 32m every time out, sorry mate, you're backing the wrong club.

[Chakan]

Your question was "How much DID Inter spend last summer?"

I don't have the answer off the top of my head, but I figured if you wanted to know, just look it up. Why get me to find out stuff for you? If you want to make a point, just make it, but I'm not going to scurry round looking for stats for you.

As for Yorky's question, no, because I would feel guilty to take £100,000 off him.

Odd your chance to prove you are right and get £100,000 and you don't take it... interesting.

[El Campeador]

Well Mr. Loco is sound tho..

As a pound no doubt.

Ten of them, actually

[RBrittain]

He missed your comment where you said you were wrong, nothing more than that. No need to make a big thing about it.

Let him speak for himself?

He said 'Excuse me?'. I clarified. Nothing more, nothing less. He didn't say that he missed the comment. If that's the case, fine then - No issue from my side, that's for sure. Just thought it was an odd comment.

[GrkStav]

Benitez had nothing to spend, hodgson spent on meireles but lost masch. do you think if we kept masch then lucas would be in the team? of course not,
In the long term if we are going to become great again do you really feel lucas is going to the type of player capable of leading the midfield of a championship winning team?

Yes. I don't know what you mean by "leading the midfield", though, so with that qualification, yes, for sure.

[RigBon1892]

Yeah absolutely convinced of it. He's only just turned 24, and we picked him up for 6m about 3 years ago. Xabi was 24 when he came here and cost 10m, round about Lucas would fetch next year. Give the kid 5 years, and he may not turn out to be Xabi Alonso, but there's a good fucking chance he'll be Didi.

If you live in some fantasy world where we only exist to buy 29 year old Xabi Alonsos for 32m every time out, sorry mate, you're backing the wrong club.

Was Xabi not only 22 when we got him as well?

[RBrittain]

OK fine, he's rated by Dunga as well.

That's weaker than listing Roy and Kenny.

He's not rated by Dunga, because he didn't make the WC squad and only played a very small part in the qualifiers (2 games I think). Dunga said, "He's one for the future". Dunga def didn't rate him in the present, otherwise he would have played him.

[impz]

As a pound no doubt.

Ten of them, actually

He is true to his name tho...

He's a poster I usually look out for.. never shy's from playing devil's

On another note.. I can't believe nobody caught bit my fishing lure..

[GrkStav]

Let him speak for himself?

He said 'Excuse me?'. I clarified. Nothing more, nothing less. He didn't say that he missed the comment. If that's the case, fine then - No issue from my side, that's for sure. Just thought it was an odd comment.

When someone posted that you were  "wrong again" regarding your claim about no other team being interesting in signing Lucas, you proceeded to complain that it's not good enough for someone to just tell you're wrong, right?

Yes, you subsequently found out that you were indeed wrong.

So, since you were indeed wrong, and the other fellow had made a truthful statement, I wanted to make a note of the fact that sometimes it's not necessary for someone to do anything other than state "you're wrong" after someone makes a factually wrong claim.

As for whether I was personally involved in the discussion . . . my understanding is that this is a public discussion board. Since I do read your posts in this thread, I thought I could respond to any and all of them.

[GrkStav]

That's weaker than listing Roy and Kenny.

He's not rated by Dunga, because he didn't make the WC squad and only played a very small part in the qualifiers (2 games I think). Dunga said, "He's one for the future". Dunga def didn't rate him in the present, otherwise he would have played him.

We're just not going to list anyone. You're well aware of the managers that have and have not used him regularly and not so regularly and it obviously doesn't alter your opinion of him. We also are equally as well aware and it hasn't changed OUR opinion of him. Therefore, the judgment of managers is not going to be a relevant argument for or against Lucas.

[Not funny reecehenebry]

I think the point reece was making was that it wasn't that the £8m figure was too high, it was that Inter didn't pony up money for ANYONE.

Thanks Jen.

[redmark]

Still too early to say what Kenny Dalglish will do with Lucas. He's had little choice but to play him, especially with Gerrard being out. Not saying that he won't play him, but you guys would be better off leaving Roy and Kenny out of your list. "He is rated by Benitez and Menezes" is a fair argument in itself, but including Roy and Dalglish in there is shaky.

Dalglish has picked Lucas in a 3-man central midfield for each game in charge. Not only does that suggest he rates him higher than Poulsen, Shelvey or Spearing, but it suggests he also rates him highly enough to sacrifice a more attacking player - as he could have played a 4231 using Cole, Maxi, Kuyt, Jovanovic, Babel in those 3 attacking roles, with Poulsen/Meireles in central midfield. Dalglish effectively is saying that his central midfield options - Lucas most definitely included - are better than his attacking options.

[Sangria]

They all run away when you ask them to put their money where their mouths are.

Except Juan Loco that is, who put his money where his mouth was, and then ran away.

Did he pay up in the end? Was the number he'd bet on 7 or 8?

[RBrittain]

It's not though. It's an even stronger example, because if any manager was thick enough to drop and sell Lucas, it'd have been Roy, and even he, after initially watching Purslow trying to shop Lucas around, himself bought Poulsen and Raul. He had chances to improve the midfield. He spent over 10m on Raul and something like 5m on Poulsen, while still planning on deploying Gerrard at CM and Joe Cole in the hole.

The fact that even fucking Hodgson ended up trotting Lucas out there game after game, after having 15m to spend on replacements (after getting 18m from Masch) speaks to Lucas's credibility more than Roy's incompetence.

If anyone was gonna agree with the Muppet Show around here that the kid deserves even a sliver of slating, it'd have been Hogdson. Yet the only thing that Hodgson had that looked good in his God-forsaken shite time on Merseyside was the Lucas-Raul combination.

This reasoning makes no sense, mate. Roy Hodgson also kept 'trotting out' Konchesky game after game. So, by your reasoning, that's the best possible evidence of Konchesky's greatness?

Roy clearly got things wrong. Horribly wrong. Using his opinion on any one player is essentially useless in any argument, I'm afraid. Plus, Hodgson played everyone who was a regular from the team last year. If anything, it could just as well have been because he wanted to get the fans on his side, or at least not alienate them by playing his own dodgy signings. Playing Benitez's established players was the safe option. Lucas was established, as he played 50 games for us in 2009-10.

Not saying you're wrong or right about Lucas on the basis of Hodgson's opinions - but I am saying, it's shaky to use Roy as a judge of Lucas' ability. The pretence of your argument is that "Lucas is good" - It's circular.

As for Dalglish, - Just wait a few weeks at least, eh? It makes the Lucas lovers look rather desperate if they're already having to cite him, after 3 games in charge. Just wait it out and you'll be entitled to say that Dalglish rates him if he plays him regularly for the next few weeks, even more so if he plays him next season after having the opportunity to buy and sell in the summer. To cite him now is shakey at best, desperate at worst.

[GrkStav]

I don't want to "look desperate" so I'll refrain from using KD's selections as "evidence" in favor of Lucas's quality.

[RBrittain]

When someone posted that you were  "wrong again" regarding your claim about no other team being interesting in signing Lucas, you proceeded to complain that it's not good enough for someone to just tell you're wrong, right?

Yes, you subsequently found out that you were indeed wrong.

So, since you were indeed wrong, and the other fellow had made a truthful statement, I wanted to make a note of the fact that sometimes it's not necessary for someone to do anything other than state "you're wrong" after someone makes a factually wrong claim.

As for whether I was personally involved in the discussion . . . my understanding is that this is a public discussion board. Since I do read your posts in this thread, I thought I could respond to any and all of them.

Nope. I made an off-the-cuff statement about Lucas not being wanted by other teams. I quickly found out that it was wrong, and said so 10 minutes after I made the comment. Then, an hour later, you come in and ask me to confirm that I was "factually, empirically wrong". It seems to be an issue for you? You seem to enjoy telling me that I'm wrong.

koolkam assumed that you had missed my admission of wrongness. Seems in fact you are just really obsessed with this.

It's almost like you're more concerned with "Who's right, who's wrong?", then just casually debating our opinions on Lucas?

[redmark]

As for Dalglish, - Just wait a few weeks at least, eh? It makes the Lucas lovers look rather desperate if they're already having to cite him, after 3 games in charge. Just wait it out and you'll be entitled to say that Dalglish rates him if he plays him regularly for the next few weeks, even more so if he plays him next season after having the opportunity to buy and sell in the summer. To cite him now is shakey at best, desperate at worst.

I was responding directly to you saying Dalglish "didn't have a choice". He most certainly did - he could have chosen to pick two, rather than three, central midfielders.

[tboz]

so far since lucas has been here the best asset he has is his head. he came here young and raw and needed to adapt the prem, since gaining an understanding and given more opportunity he has been doing his best to rule out previous errors, but that is where it stops. anybody can do that over time, look at david james, or titus bramble and even traore when he was here.

Senna plays the simple game but is not limited to that, when didi was here although he mainly did the basics right he still had an unpredictable side with the ability. Lucas would rather lay it off then get screamed at by gerrard for trying the unexpected or not so obvious and thats only good if the rest of the team are making things happen and thats just not the case now.

[jackh]

Anybody got a link to the article posted about 6 weeks ago discussing the current Brazilian sytem and the roles of Lucas, Ramires and the wing-backs?

Was a real good article, wouldn't mind another read.

[Yorkykopite]

As for Yorky's question, no, because I would feel guilty to take £100,000 off him.

Don't feel guilty you arsehole. Just answer the question.

[Juan Loco]

As a pound no doubt.

Ten of them, actually

Speaking of, they'll be with you when the delightful company who sacked me without giving me any of my wages actually pay up. Hopefully next week. You'll be adequetly compensated for your knowledge. Although I'm sure you definition of adequetly compensated differs vastly from Sven Goran Benitez's


Oh and Dunga didn't really seem to love him. The new bloke does though. Hence the fact that he's a regular. Can't blame Dunga for not showing much faith in him though. He gave him a start in an important game at home to Bolivia, and well, insipid isn't the word.

[GrkStav]

Nope. I made an off-the-cuff statement about Lucas not being wanted by other teams. I quickly found out that it was wrong, and said so 10 minutes after I made the comment. Then, an hour later, you come in and ask me to confirm that I was "factually, empirically wrong". It seems to be an issue for you? You seem to enjoy telling me that I'm wrong.

koolkam assumed that you had missed my admission of wrongness. Seems in fact you are just really obsessed with this.

It's almost like you're more concerned with "Who's right, who's wrong?", then just casually debating our opinions on Lucas?

You do realize that how the thread develops in time is not how people read it, right?

Anyway, yes I did want to point out that your (now you tell us) "off-the-cuff statement" had indeed been wrong and, therefore, (and since you know tell us it was off-the-cuff) you shouldn't have been so prissy about another poster simply stating that you were wrong.

Casually debating our opinions is one thing. Making factual statements in support of our opinions is quite another.

Anyway, my opinion is that many people's current current opinion of Lucas is lagged. It's more descriptive of how he was a couple of seasons ago than how he's been lately.

As for Dunga, he didn't take Lucas to the WC. In retrospect, he could perhaps have used his cool head in lieu of Melo's, for example. Still, it is what it is.

Personally, I hope he gets offered a competitive contract and that he stays with us for the long haul. Whether he is a regular starter or a reliable member of a rotation of central midfielders I don't really care, so long as the team is doing well.

[liverpooll]

Repeatedly saying that does not make it true. No one compared their abilities , those players were used to illustrate certain similarities in playing styles. There is a massive difference between the two.

You are the one who is missing the point.

Maybe not you but definitely there are some here who do make "direct" comparison. I cannot be bothered finding prove for you but I am sure if u search it yourself, you will find tons. They will give some random stats just to prove how much more effective he is than the other player.

But forget that, there are many here who according believe Lucas is destined to be a world class player and it is only Liverpool who is stopping him by having such a poor quality of team. These things bother as well along as this just takes away any blame from Lucas but instead to "Liverpool".

The point is I am not a Lucas lover or hater. He is a good player and deserves to be at Liverpool but he definitely does not deserve such irrational protection.

[El Campeador]

Was Xabi not only 22 when we got him as well?

I may be mistaken, but I thought we got him at age 24.

[bam09]

Benitez had nothing to spend, hodgson spent on meireles but lost masch. do you think if we kept masch then lucas would be in the team? of course not,
In the long term if we are going to become great again do you really feel lucas is going to the type of player capable of leading the midfield of a championship winning team?

Two things:
1) Why does Lucas have to lead the midfield? What he is, is a great complimentary player to an elite CM with good positional sense.
2) Brazil is banking on it for the WC in their home country. What's that tell you about how highly they rate him? And the pressure on Brazil to win the WC in 2014 is heavier than any pressure LFC could have.

[bam09]

I may be mistaken, but I thought we got him at age 24.

He was 23.

[bam09]

Maybe not you but definitely there are some here who do make "direct" comparison. I cannot be bothered finding prove for you but I am sure if u search it yourself, you will find tons. They will give some random stats just to prove how much more effective he is than the other player.

But forget that, there are many here who according believe Lucas is destined to be a world class player and it is only Liverpool who is stopping him by having such a poor quality of team. These things bother as well along as this just takes away any blame from Lucas but instead to "Liverpool".

The point is I am not a Lucas lover or hater. He is a good player and deserves to be at Liverpool but he definitely does not deserve such irrational protection.

But he deserved irrational abuse and hate from the fans?

Lucas deserves any praise he gets, full stop. For someone to take abuse and shite from the fans, and hear boos when he isn't subbed is not right. The fact that he said nothing, continued on praising the fanbase and said how lucky he is to be a Red should be enough for anyone.

[RBrittain]

You do realize that how the thread develops in time is not how people read it, right?

Anyway, yes I did want to point out that your (now you tell us) "off-the-cuff statement" had indeed been wrong and, therefore, (and since you know tell us it was off-the-cuff) you shouldn't have been so prissy about another poster simply stating that you were wrong.

Prissy? Not at all. koolkamal said "You're wrong", and I said he should qualify it. He then did in his next post, giving some names of clubs that were after him. Don't worry about it, mate.

[Neil D]

I may be mistaken, but I thought we got him at age 24.

He was 23 mate

[El Campeador]

This reasoning makes no sense, mate. Roy Hodgson also kept 'trotting out' Konchesky game after game. So, by your reasoning, that's the best possible evidence of Konchesky's greatness?

That a terrible argument on many levels. We had no leftbacks at all when Roy took over.

We had options at CM.

Do you not think before you post?

[GrkStav]

I may be mistaken, but I thought we got him at age 24.

Date of birth    25 November 1981

We got him in 2004. Look like he was still 23 when he became a registered player for LFC.

[El Campeador]

Did he pay up in the end?

My Baathist Enforcer across the pond is on the case, but I aint seen no green yet.

Was the number he'd bet on 7 or 8?

8.

I'd have bitten his hand off for anything over 4.

[bam09]

Speaking of, they'll be with you when the delightful company who sacked me without giving me any of my wages actually pay up. Hopefully next week. You'll be adequetly compensated for your knowledge. Although I'm sure you definition of adequetly compensated differs vastly from Sven Goran Benitez's


Oh and Dunga didn't really seem to love him. The new bloke does though. Hence the fact that he's a regular. Can't blame Dunga for not showing much faith in him though. He gave him a start in an important game at home to Bolivia, and well, insipid isn't the word.

Dunga made him the youngest ever inclusion in a Brazil match and he was the youngest to receive a cap for Brazil(it was an unofficial friendly though). Dunga liked him enough to make him one of the 2 non European based players in a strong squad in one of his first managerial matches. He liked him enough to play him in the olympics against Argentina.

Dunga rated Lucas. He went for experience in the WC(which backfired obviously) but he rated Lucas nonetheless. He was one of the final cuts from the olympic team as well, despite not exactly playing world beating football last year(although the improvement was there).

[Juan Loco]

My Baathist Enforcer across the pond is on the case, but I aint seen no green yet.

8.

I'd have bitten his hand off for anything over 4.

Pah! You'll get your money. If I didn't intend on paying I wouldn't have got in contact with you, despite missing you as much as I did.

[El Campeador]

He was 23 mate

Superb piece of business.

Xabi turned 24 in November of his first season, and we got him for 10m. Lucas just turned 24, and we got him for 6m aged 20. Reina cost 6m at age 23.

If Liverpool Football Club could do that sort of business every other year, we'd be fucking ferocious. Too bad for us, some people choose too concentrate on the empty half of the glass, djes?

[El Campeador]

Pah! You'll get your money. If I didn't intend on paying I wouldn't have got in contact with you, despite missing you as much as I did.

 

Love you Juan.

[Yorkykopite]

Give the brass to the Hillsborough Justice Campaign instead lads.

That's where RBrittain is going to send that tenner he owes me. Isn't that right RBrittain?

Tell us when you've done it.  Good lad.

[El Campeador]

Give the brass to the Hillsborough Justice Campaign instead lads.

We'd actually agreed on the money going to SOS, but I'm gonna keep his signed tenner. I'll pay my union dues, dinna everyone worry.

[Juan Loco]

I'm gonna keep his signed tenner.

My autograph means that much

[Yorkykopite]

We'd actually agreed on the money going to SOS, but I'm gonna keep his signed tenner. I'll pay my union dues, dinna everyone worry.

Aye, that's a good choice too.

You can always tell the real fellas on here  .