Topic: Lucas in Brazil Squad

[DUGlish]

Anyone got stastics on him this year then?

Pass completion etc?

[sneakyg]

As long as it is a five year contract I don't care how much he gets paid. If we can keep him on 5k wages let's do it, lol.

In all seriousness he deserves to be around the 35-50k range.

bloody hell, im glad your not in charge.

[Hazell]

Simple solution. Play him as the deepest midfielder. And play him further up the pitch. They're not mutually exclusive.

They're not but we're not doing that at the minute. Plus it's more difficult for him to do that physically. If we had another Lucas-type player, then it would make it much more easier.

Anyway, that wasn't what I was saying. He plays deep for us but rarely pushes higher up the pitch- if we would allow him to do that, the whole team would benefit. It doesn't mean that he'd be an AM for us, just that he'd have more of an influence on our attacking play.

I think the key to making use of Lucas as an attacker is to get him beyond the centre circle, and have runners ahead of him. Put that together, which the team should do anyway regardless of Lucas, and he'll be productive enough in an attacking sense. 20 yards outside the opposition box and closer is the zone to aim for.

Agreed. That's kind of what I'm saying but we're not doing it at present - a lot has to do with the players we have. Having a slightly deeper midfielder than him would benefit Lucas greatly in terms of what he would bring in an attacking sense and would cure the potential problem we'd have below:

I agree but I believe the point still stands that if the defensive line is too deep then Lucas cannot get forward as much because he will leave far too much space in front of the back line to exploit.

[Buzz Killington]

bloody hell, im glad your not in charge.

Great, you're back then.

[Sangria]

bloody hell, im glad your not in charge.

Is it painful watching the current manager keep picking this waste of space?

[Diomedieocre]

bloody hell, im glad your not in charge.

You should go for the job yourself seeing as you know best.

[ozzy-red]

bloody hell, im glad your not in charge.

So Agger's on a reported 90k a week.
But Lucas, a player who plays more consistently, always at a high standard and in some aspects is more vital to the team, isn't even worth half of that?
Fuck, I'm glad your not in charge.

[new-red]

bloody hell, im glad your not in charge.

me too, considering it takes a whole helluva lot to run a football club.

Im glad you could pop by to, uh, contribute....nothing to the thread.

[Junkle]

My favourite player... good mentality as Rafa would say.

[The 5th Benitle]

bloody hell, im glad your not in charge.

So you don't think he's worth half Joe Cole's wages? Interesting.

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

Really highlights a few good points this. Below is my comment I made on the blog yesterday -

The pressure came from Lucas, simply because he had one of the toughest job’s around in European football, at that time.

The combination of Gerrard, Alonso, and Mascherano, was near “perfect” as you can get. The ball winner, Mascherano. Alonso, who was such a luxury. And Gerrard, the goal scorer, creator, and “superman”. It worked, at times, near perfect.

When was injured, rested, or suspended, up stepped Lucas. And, as the stats point out, he did relatively well in all aspects. But never really “specialised” in anything. Eventually, when Alonso left, and his replacement Aquilani was on the treatment table, Lucas had to step up. And, he simply isn’t, wasn’t, and never will be Xabi.

That is no slant on him at all, as Lucas is a very good player to have, and I think he has well and truly earned his place in the team. But we did miss Alonso, so much. He made everything happen, he made everything tick. Without taking the Gerrard like headlines.

Now, our midfield has evolved. We don’t have Alonso, or a player like him, but the way we set up and play is totally different. While having a Xabi Alonso wouldn’t harm at all, we don’t “need” him like we did then.

Meireles is proving to be a very good player, with totally different qualities. Scoring vital goals so far this season. Lucas has stepped right up to the plate, and is one of the first names on the team sheet at the moment. And Gerrard, under Kenny, has in the main taken a deeper role. Less “super man” but still having all his midfield qualities, that he has always possessed.

I fully expect to see us sign another midfielder in the summer, someone who can give us that passing from deep. Adam is heavily linked of course, and he could be the one. But Alonso? He was one in a million.

The real problem is that a top 4 team relied on one player (Alonso) for its passing game which is shame. Whenever Alonso didn't play we struggled be it Lucas replacing him or whoever. This was more to do with Rafa no prioritizing player's technical ability when scouting them. I don't care how much they cost, Arsenal have good passers of the ball all over the pitch and they hardly spend any money. Early this season and last season Liverpool's possession game was horrible and the problem is people still expect Lucas to run the passing game like Xabi did.

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

But I'm not saying it wasn't a problem. Replacing Lucas with Alonso meant the team suffered - but all I'm saying is there were other issues, which if they hadn't occured or had been fixed, meant we wouldn't nearly have had the season we did.

The thing about the lack of movement is that it was there - Alonso's ability eant that we were able to mask our problems with it. When he left, we had no one who could ditate the game and find a player like he could which meant our limitations were exposed. As for his goals, that's still not a lot and how many were penalties or freekicks (The one in Europe was, , one against Newcastle in the league was and the goal against Hull was a rebound from a free kick which Alonso took himself)? Lucas doesn't need to score or assist to have an impact on the game just like Alonso didn't. And the reason it doesn't happen enough is because Lucas, like Alonso (particularly in his final few years) plays deeper and doesn't have Alonso's passing range. That's what we missed last season but playing him further forward would mean that he'd be able to utilise his ability on and off the ball in an attacking sense - and he does have it.

Lucas is a pass and move player and him playing further ahead of where he does right now would demonstrate that more than it already has done so. Aquilani was another quality attacking player added to the team so when he played we obviously looked better. The best move in that game started from Lucas playing a 10-15 yard pass cutting out 2 of the opposition players - if he was higher up, he would have been involved in that move but what it does show is a) the benefit of him playing that deep but also b) his ability to play a pass - again he could do more damage to the opposition if he were deployed further up the pitch. In fact, it wouldn't make us more defensive at all (how?) but give us more attacking impetus - something which would benfit the likes of Aquilani, Suarez and Gerrard. Really don't agree with you about his qualities here - he really is a pass and move player (I genuinely can;'t see why some people can't see that) and we could use him more in an attacking sense if we want to play a more progressive type of football.

The real problem is that a top 4 team relied on one player (Alonso) for its passing game which is shame. Whenever Alonso didn't play we struggled be it Lucas replacing him or whoever. This was more to do with Rafa no prioritizing player's technical ability when scouting them. I don't care how much they cost, Arsenal have good passers of the ball all over the pitch and they hardly spend any money. Early this season and last season Liverpool's possession game was horrible and the problem is people still expect Lucas to run the passing game like Xabi did.

[Hazell]

The real problem is that a top 4 team relied on one player (Alonso) for its passing game which is shame. Whenever Alonso didn't play we struggled be it Lucas replacing him or whoever. This was more to do with Rafa no prioritizing player's technical ability when scouting them. I don't care how much they cost, Arsenal have good passers of the ball all over the pitch and they hardly spend any money. Early this season and last season Liverpool's possession game was horrible and the problem is people still expect Lucas to run the passing game like Xabi did.

And what have Arsenal won in recent years? It takes years to build up that kind of team (even for Arsenal) and what Rafa tried to do was make us adaptable depending on the game, unlike Arsenal who are unable to adapt their game to a large extent. Anyway, the team relying on Alonso was a problem for us, amongst others, and Lucas wasn't meant to be his replacement - we just needed more players like him (like Aquilani).

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

And what have Arsenal won in recent years? It takes years to build up that kind of team (even for Arsenal) and what Rafa tried to do was make us adaptable depending on the game, unlike Arsenal who are unable to adapt their game to a large extent. Anyway, the team relying on Alonso was a problem for us, amongst others, and Lucas wasn't meant to be his replacement - we just needed more players like him (like Aquilani).

What have we won?

[Hazell]

What have we won?

You were eulogising over Arsenal and how we should be like them. It's not exactly brought them huge success recently has it?

Their cirumstances are different to ours anyway and should no way be compared.

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

You were eulogising over Arsenal and how we should be like them. It's not exactly brought them huge success recently has it?

Their cirumstances are different to ours anyway and should no way be compared.

They've had more success than we have, my point was that a players technical ability is very important to Wenger and as a result if Fabregas isn't playing their passing game doesn't suffer as much. Arsenal haven't done well because Wenger is too stuck in his ways, if they'd had a world class CF, CB and GK they would have won the league

[the_red_pill]

They've had more success than we have, my point was that a players technical ability is very important to Wenger and as a result if Fabregas isn't playing their passing game doesn't suffer as much. Arsenal haven't done well because Wenger is too stuck in his ways, if they'd had a world class CF, CB and GK they would have won the league

They haven't- plain and simple. That is Sky-indoctrinated nonsense. In the past 6 years, we've won trophies, they haven't(CL, FA Cup, Super Cup, Community Shield)- they've won the Emirates Cup though(one of those Cups that, I'm afraid to say, will elude us- oh, the horror!). Out of those, we finished ahead of them on 3 occasions. Out of those, we've progressed further than they have in the CL on 3 occasions. Out of those, we have been to 2 finals and they?

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

They haven't- plain and simple. That is Sky-indoctrinated nonsense. In the past 6 years, we've won trophies, they haven't(CL, FA Cup, Super Cup, Community Shield)- they've won the Emirates Cup though. Out of those, we finished ahead of them on 3 occasions. Out of those, we've progressed further than they have in the CL on 3 occasions. Out of those, we have been to 2 finals and they?

Wenger has been there longer than 6yrs mate so why would you judge him based on the last 6?

[the_red_pill]

Wenger has been there longer than 6yrs mate so why would you judge him based on the last 6?

Exactly. We can't be compared accurately or fairly and if there is any comparison to be made, then we'll have to compare him to his peers at LFC, who are Rafa, Hodgson, Dalglish and during the reign of 2 of those, we beat them hands down.

To claim they've had more success than us in order to defend a point, is nonsense. Similarily, you can also argue that Dalglish has been at LFC longer than 2 months. Its all a nothing comparison or argument to make, which was started off by claiming they've been more succesful than us.

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

I seem to recall that we lost Hyypia, Arbeloa and Alonso...add to that a huge injurylist early in the '09-'10 season. Quite a few games in the season before, big games, where won without Alonso on the teamsheet.  It's really a re-writing of history the way many talk about Alonso with regards to the '08-'09 season.  It's not like we where a one man team at that time...Alonso being that one.

Don't get me wrong, he was really important and I for one was gutted to lose him.  But one man doesn't make a team.  And the cancers really did have a say in how he was replaced.

I think it's easier for us to win big games, because the big teams come at you and we were a very hard working team so we made it difficult for them and Torres always had a goal in him. Against the smaller teams where we needed that passing and guile to open them up we always struggled without Xabi

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

Exactly. They can't be compared and if there is any comparison to be made, then we'll have to compare him to his peers at LFC, which is Rafa, Hodgson, Dalglish and during the reign of 2 of those, we beat them hands down.

I'm not comparing them against each other, I am assessing them and their values. I said technical ability was not foremost on Rafa's mind when signing players , and our passing game suffered as a result. I anticipated the usual excuses of not having money to spend that's why I brought up Wenger

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

Exactly. We can't be compared accurately or fairly and if there is any comparison to be made, then we'll have to compare him to his peers at LFC, who are Rafa, Hodgson, Dalglish and during the reign of 2 of those, we beat them hands down.

To claim they've had more success than us in order to defend a point, is nonsense.

They have in the last 10 years

[the_red_pill]

They have in the last 10 years

In the last 6-8 years, they haven't. We disagree, so let's leave it there.

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

In the last 6-8 years, they haven't.

Keep telling yourself that, maybe you'll believe it. How many times have we finished above them in that time? How many times have they finished outside the top 4?

[Hazell]

They've had more success than we have, my point was that a players technical ability is very important to Wenger and as a result if Fabregas isn't playing their passing game doesn't suffer as much. Arsenal haven't done well because Wenger is too stuck in his ways, if they'd had a world class CF, CB and GK they would have won the league

Not in Rafa's time here.

Like I said, Arsenal's and our scenario's are very different and not worth getting into here.

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

Not in Rafa's time here.

Like I said, Arsenal's and our scenario's are very different and not worth getting into here.

Rafa won 2 trophies with us, how many has Wenger won with Arsenal?

[the_red_pill]

Rafa won 2 trophies with us, how many has Wenger won with Arsenal?

How many trophies have Wenger won during Rafa's reign? You were using an example of Alonso and players during Rafa's reign to justify your point and contrary to what you espoused, the facts show that during Rafa's reign, the methods and players we had were as a whole, more succesful than Arsenal's.

Furthermore, you use success from 7 years ago, achieved by methods and players Wenger had 7 years ago to peddle the theory that we should be more like Arsenal today- who haven't won anything recently? Why would we want to model them then? It's no secret that Wengers policy radically changed after "the Invincibles" and it has not been successful, so why would we want to do that? To milk more money out of the supporters and sponsors by sheer entertainment, like they do? Ever learning, but never able to arrive at the truth.

[Chakan]

Rafa won 2 trophies with us, how many has Wenger won with Arsenal?

You do know Wenger has been at Arsenal for 15 year right?

[Strummer77]

Keep telling yourself that, maybe you'll believe it. How many times have we finished above them in that time? How many times have they finished outside the top 4?

In the last 6 to 8 years we have finished above them a fair bit. Anyway ironic that as every other thread turns into a Lucas one... the Lucas thread stops being about him

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

How many trophies have Wenger won during Rafa's reign? You were using an example of Alonso and players during Rafa's reign to justify your point and contrary to what you espoused, the facts show that during Rafa's reign, the methods and players we had were as a whole, more succesful than Arsenal's.

Furthermore, you use success from 7 years ago, achieved by methods and players Wenger had 7 years ago to peddle the theory that we should be more like Arsenal?

Why would you judge Wenger solely based on the period Rafa was here? Again my reference in style of play to Arsenal was that they have more technically gifted players than we do. Hence our dependence on Xabi's technical brilliance and the slagging off of Lucas because he was not at the same level as Xabi while ignoring the fact that the responsibility shouldn't fall only to Lucas

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

In the last 6 to 8 years we have finished above them a fair bit. Anyway ironic that as every other thread turns into a Lucas one... the Lucas thread stops being about him

How many times? TBF we were stronger than them in Europe but domestically they were better

[Chakan]

How many times? TBF we were stronger than them in Europe but domestically they were better

3 out of 6

[The G in Gerrard]

Why is Arsenal being discussed in Lucas thread

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

3 out of 6

Good, of the 6 seasons how many times did we finish outside the top 4 and how many times did Arsenal?

CASE CLOSED, lets move on.

[the_red_pill]

Why would you judge Wenger solely based on the period Rafa was here? Again my reference in style of play to Arsenal was that they have more technically gifted players than we do. Hence our dependence on Xabi's technical brilliance and the slagging off of Lucas because he was not at the same level as Xabi while ignoring the fact that the responsibility shouldn't fall only to Lucas

This is going in circles. Someone please help me explain, because alhtough I know exactly what I'm getting at, I'm just not that articulate.

[Strummer77]

Why is Arsenal being discussed in Lucas thread

Because people are bored of talking about Lucas everywhere else

[Hazell]

Rafa won 2 trophies with us, how many has Wenger won with Arsenal?

? That's not what I said. Anyway, others should have set you straight about it.

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

? That's not what I said.

Never mind don't want to drag this on, I started out trying to explain how Lucas wasn't at fault for the our problems after Xabi left and it has morphed into a Wenger v Rafa discussion

[the_red_pill]

Good, of the 6 seasons how many times did we finish outside the top 4 and how many times did Arsenal?

CASE CLOSED, lets move on.

Arsenal's methods don't work. They've not been succesful for a while now. They had different players and Wenger had a different approach when they won those trophies. Do you see anyone outside of Arsenal hurrying to employ their methods?

Btw, employing players who are technically adept is not unique to Arsenal/Wenger- they didn't invent football.

[the_red_pill]

Never mind don't want to drag this on, I started out trying to explain how Lucas wasn't at fault for the our problems after Xabi left and it has morphed into a Wenger v Rafa discussion

Okay, I feel silly as well. Apologies for hijacking the thread.