Topic: Lucas in Brazil Squad

[JackB]

If you think that Adam will replace Lucas then God help us. Adam is not a defensive midfield. He will not track back and make tackle, if he replace Lucas then we will have a really huge problem.
Kenny wanted to sign Adam to play alongside with a defensive midfield and wih Raul/Stevie ahead of them.

Is Kenny going to drop Steven Gerrard? Almost certainly not
Is Kenny going to drop Raul Meireles? Probably not

So unless he's planning on playing 4 central midfielders I think Lucas is the most likely to miss out if (probably more like when) we sign Adam.

[its cold in the stands]

In 87-88, Dalglish played a covering CM who was inferior to Lucas in every way, ahead of an Adam-type CM who was superior to Adam in every way. Dalglish likes his covering midfielders.

footy doesnt work like that mate, he chose nigel spackman because whelan was injured and that `midfielder who was superior to adam in every way ` weighed about 16 stone and couldnt run.

[farawayred]

footy doesnt work like that mate, he chose nigel spackman because whelan was injured and that `midfielder who was superior to adam in every way ` weighed about 16 stone and couldnt run.

Nah, he was 16 stone once after returning from the summer...

[its cold in the stands]

Nah, he was 16 stone once after returning from the summer...

he wasnt in the team because he was overweight and his mobilty was shite.

[farawayred]

he wasnt in the team because he was overweight and his mobilty was shite.

True, true.

[Sangria]

footy doesnt work like that mate, he chose nigel spackman because whelan was injured and that `midfielder who was superior to adam in every way ` weighed about 16 stone and couldnt run.

Fucking hell. Surely you're not suggesting that, shock horror, the role Lucas plays is vital to Dalglish's plans. Everyone knows Lucas is dispensable, and likely to miss out the moment a half decent midfielder comes in. Now you're telling me that someone who is inferior to Lucas in every way played ahead of Molby because Dalglish felt that role was necessary.

[Hightown Phil]

Is Kenny going to drop Steven Gerrard? Almost certainly not
Is Kenny going to drop Raul Meireles? Probably not

So unless he's planning on playing 4 central midfielders I think Lucas is the most likely to miss out if (probably more like when) we sign Adam.

If we play a midfield of Adam, Gerrard and Meireles we'll get raped.

And if you think any manager would play that midfield, I'd recommend another sport you might actually understand.

[JackB]

You've also missed out the bit where he made a Lucas-type player the Liverpool captain. Dalglish likes his covering midfielders.

This is becoming a bit frustrating now. You keep making the same point over and over again and I answer you again and again.

Yes you are right Kenny has a history of signing covering midfielders.

However this does not necessarily mean that he thinks Lucas is a world beater.

[the 92A]

here are four groups of fans

1. Lucas is awesome,he's superb,the world missed someone like him since Zidane..true brazilian scouser,did you see that? he can pass the ball to his teammate and you are telling he's not the best midfielder ever lived in history of football?

2. he's average,but we can win things if he's surrounded with players better than him

3. he's average,and we need top players for every position,especially in the middle,so i dont think he's good enough for starting 11,but its good to have him on the bench

4. he's totally shite,never was and never going to be good enough for Liverpool,sell him to Fucksaspor

Thats just plain wrong, I'd be suprised if you could find many posters who rate Lucas, who think he is the type of player who would get into your group one, Gerrard maybe, Alonso at a pinch but certainly not Lucas.
 
He is the type of player who is a polar opposite to the star in the middle who grabs the game by the scruff of the neck instead he quietly goes about the centre running into space always making himself available, never hiding no matter how much stick he's given, breaking up play and passing into space. This season he's added a bit of confidence to his game that he was missing and he's improved, watch him over a game and notice how fucking good his passing is but if he misses a pass expect a load of nuggets to go Luucccassss, the same goes when he misses a tackle he often reads the game so well he takes the ball off the player without committing to the tackle. He's good in the air often out jumping those much bigger than him. What a lot of us would argue is that he is not really suitable for your group 2 or lower because he's a lot better than average at quite a few skills that make up a good midfielder but will never be the type of player that makes the hollywood runs or passes that gets noticed.
 
I've watched games where he's hardly put a foot wrong and the frustrating thing is if the lad makes a mistake the scapegoaters are rolling their eyes and loudly sighing Luuucass as if everyone thinks he's shit. It's got better this season but quite a few need to catch up a realise what the lad does for the team.

[mulhergremista]

But rather than pin the blame on Lucas for Liverpool's underperformance, why not look at what happened at the time, at the time when Liverpool's form suddenly dipped? Lucas was there during the early season good form, he was there when the form worsened. What was there when Liverpool enjoyed good form, but wasn't there when Liverpool suffered bad form?

I have quoted it once but i will quote it again, it belongs to my friend and an expert football comentator from equador, who was comentator of Barça in his days . He said it for Rivaldo but it can be applied to Lucas.  Barça had one of its worst season, but Rivaldo had his best with 36 goals in all competitions and he was the difference from fighting against relegation and qualifiying to UEFA,  Well Lucas is not Rivaldo, but he had  his better season when the team had one of its worst

What said my friend carlos peña "Accusing Rivaldo for the bad situation of the team is like accusing the guide-dog or the blindness of his owner."

RIVALDO had to cover for the loss of Figo and some other players, change of coaches est.  He did what he could, had some bad games as well, he is human..and always got  critisized. About 50% of Barcelona so-called "fans" booed Rivaldo, declared the best in the world not log before it.   The discussion in the forums was very fierce,  much stronger than the one over Lucas.  There were also racist and personal offences.  I really do not want to remember it nor recall it.   
Lucas  got more stick also when he had his best season, while the beloved stars left because they wanted to he stuck with Liverpool, although he got a tempting offer from COrinthians under Mano Menezes.  He did not deserved the slating he got, and still getting.

I used to be very frustrating by it, but when I remembered what happened to Rivaldo, and he was world class, you can not deny it, I understood that the stick Lucas gets has nothing to do with him as a footballer, with him as a person and with him as Brazil international. 
I read this thread to see what people write about him, injoy some excellent posts, improve my English and understanding the English state of mind, and not just jump to react on evry second post as I used to 

I write when I really have a point to show,  or iluminate something I think I can, nothing else.  Thank GOD, the times when I and some others were his only fans in the world had passed, never to return. 


I remember the posters who said that a Brazil team with Rivaldo will never win anything.. They were champions and Rivaldo was one of the best. It can apply to Lucas as well

Seeing him so happy and so well connected with Suarez and others, was heart warming.  Look at the picture thread of this forum, I have been following it for several years and I never saw so many happy pictures of players happy and smiling widely, and the comments of the fan was accordingly positive. 

The only negative note of that day was a comment in some newspaper that I did not remember which.

They wanted to praise Spearing on his game, very well, he desereved it, but than they thoght that they can not praise him without offending Lucas.  They said: He is much better than lucas was 3 years ago when he was his age, he will be wonderful player in the future. 
Ok, I wish this young man all the best, but why said anti-Lucas comments,  Spearing did not have to come to another continent, languague and football style like Lucas did. I expect from people calling themselves professional football comentators to refrain from such unfortunate comparisons.  Lucas himself, very typical for him, commented about Spearing in the official site and said only good ,encouraging things to him, prasing his progressing.

Some of the so called "professional" journos could learn somthing from Lucas which they despise because they do not understand him as a person and football player, tring to categorize him in a box that they know,  and he does not fall in any of "them boxes" as you say.

I hope some of you took the truoble to read it this post until the end. Thanks for reading

[its cold in the stands]

Fucking hell. Surely you're not suggesting that, shock horror, the role Lucas plays is vital to Dalglish's plans. Everyone knows Lucas is dispensable, and likely to miss out the moment a half decent midfielder comes in. Now you're telling me that someone who is inferior to Lucas in every way played ahead of Molby because Dalglish felt that role was necessary.

no, i am saying spackman got in the side and did a good job, but he got in the side because better players were either injured or unfit.

[Sangria]

This is becoming a bit frustrating now. You keep making the same point over and over again and I answer you again and again.

Yes you are right Kenny has a history of signing covering midfielders.

However this does not necessarily mean that he thinks Lucas is a world beater.

However, in your posts you've dismissed basically everything a covering midfielder does, and shown no understanding of what they do for the team. You've gone on to argue that the team doesn't need a covering midfielder. Well, Dalglish's history indicates he has a healthy liking for that type of player, splashing out over a third of the British transfer record on one, and making another his club captain at Liverpool.

[hoonin]

This is becoming a bit frustrating now. You keep making the same point over and over again and I answer you again and again.

Yes you are right Kenny has a history of signing covering midfielders.

However this does not necessarily mean that he thinks Lucas is a world beater.

Kenny's comments on Lucas are a matter of record, no (see previous link)?

[its cold in the stands]

However, in your posts you've dismissed basically everything a covering midfielder does, and shown no understanding of what they do for the team. You've gone on to argue that the team doesn't need a covering midfielder. Well, Dalglish's history indicates he has a healthy liking for that type of player, splashing out over a third of the British transfer record on one, and making another his club captain at Liverpool.

it wouldnt surprise me if he moved gerrard infront of the back four if we bought adam.

[macmanaman]

it wouldnt surprise me if he moved gerrard infront of the back four if we bought adam.

Gerrard playing discipline defensive midfield, now that would qualify as insanity.

[GrkStav]

This is becoming a bit frustrating now. You keep making the same point over and over again and I answer you again and again.

Yes you are right Kenny has a history of signing covering midfielders.

However this does not necessarily mean that he thinks Lucas is a world beater.

And you think you repeating the same asinine point is not frustrating?

You seem to think that it's a great tour-de-force that you've "concluded" that since Kenny is unlikely to drop Stevie and Gerrard AND he apparently wanted Charlie Adam then, it follows (supposedly) that he's thinking of dropping Lucas in favor of Adam.

Sorry, mate, but that takes the cake of faulty syllogism, on multiple levels. First of all, you do understand this concept of rotation, right? Secondly, which manager in his right mind, let alone Kenny Dalglish, would use a midfield trio of Gerrard, Meireles and Adam and not designate Gerrard as the most defensively-minded midfielder? And if he were to do that, what would possibly possess him to do that instead of using Lucas and two out of the three of Gerrard, Meireles and Adam?

I bet you think we couldn't use Aquilani if he were to come, for we have Meireles. Is that right?

[Sangria]

Gerrard playing discipline defensive midfield, now that would qualify as insanity.

Anything is worth it to get Lucas out of the team. As that Yosser0_0 says,

"We all know that we are basically waiting for a better replacement for Lucas, Spearing would have done as good a job for the last two seasons until then in terms of filling in when Masc/Gerrard/Alsono were out. We've had to drop our standards with the quality midfielders leaving."

The sooner Lucas is out of the team, the sooner Liverpool's revival will happen. Isn't that right?

[GrkStav]

it wouldnt surprise me if he moved gerrard infront of the back four if we bought adam.

It wouldn't surprise you? I've now seen it all.

[Sangria]

And you think you repeating the same asinine point is not frustrating?

You seem to think that it's a great tour-de-force that you've "concluded" that since Kenny is unlikely to drop Stevie and Gerrard AND he apparently wanted Charlie Adam then, it follows (supposedly) that he's thinking of dropping Lucas in favor of Adam.

Sorry, mate, but that takes the cake of faulty syllogism, on multiple levels. First of all, you do understand this concept of rotation, right? Secondly, which manager in his right mind, let alone Kenny Dalglish, would use a midfield trio of Gerrard, Meireles and Adam and not designate Gerrard as the most defensively-minded midfielder? And if he were to do that, what would possibly possess him to do that instead of using Lucas and two out of the three of Gerrard, Meireles and Adam?

I bet you think we couldn't use Aquilani if he were to come, for we have Meireles. Is that right?

And funnily enough, I'd actually be happier if Dalglish did actually bring in realistic competition for Lucas. It's a drum I've been banging, to bring in 2 more players who can viably play in Lucas's current position. It doesn't stop all the arguments JackB has been using from being bullshit though, because they are.

[JackB]

However, in your posts you've dismissed basically everything a covering midfielder does, and shown no understanding of what they do for the team. You've gone on to argue that the team doesn't need a covering midfielder. Well, Dalglish's history indicates he has a healthy liking for that type of player, splashing out over a third of the British transfer record on one, and making another his club captain at Liverpool.

I neither dismissed everything a covering midfielder does nor argue that a team doesn't need one. I agree that they have an important function to play in the team especially away from home when you'd expect to have to soak up some pressure.

My point/opinion is that Lucas isn't a particularly good one compared to what we've had previously in Mascherano and Hamann.

[its cold in the stands]

Gerrard playing discipline defensive midfield, now that would qualify as insanity.

are you saying he couldnt do that job?
lee carsley was good at it lad, stop trying to make out it`s rocket science

[Sangria]

I neither dismissed everything a covering midfielder does nor argue that a team doesn't need one. I agree that they have an important function to play in the team especially away from home when you'd expect to have to soak up some pressure.

My point/opinion is that Lucas isn't a particularly good one compared to what we've had previously in Mascherano and Hamann.

Nah, he's not all that good. He's the best in the league, but he's not all that good really.

[macmanaman]

are you saying he couldnt do that job?
lee carsley was good at it lad, stop trying to make out it`s rocket science

I see no point in trying to debate with people with mental illness which you obviously are if you think Gerrard can play a defensive midfield role.
The sight of Gerrard making many tackles, covering the defense, doing all the dirty work in front of the back 4. Oh the joy, if he can stay on the field long enough for us to enjoy that sight.

[JackB]

And you think you repeating the same asinine point is not frustrating?

You seem to think that it's a great tour-de-force that you've "concluded" that since Kenny is unlikely to drop Stevie and Gerrard AND he apparently wanted Charlie Adam then, it follows (supposedly) that he's thinking of dropping Lucas in favor of Adam.

Sorry, mate, but that takes the cake of faulty syllogism, on multiple levels. First of all, you do understand this concept of rotation, right? Secondly, which manager in his right mind, let alone Kenny Dalglish, would use a midfield trio of Gerrard, Meireles and Adam and not designate Gerrard as the most defensively-minded midfielder? And if he were to do that, what would possibly possess him to do that instead of using Lucas and two out of the three of Gerrard, Meireles and Adam?

I bet you think we couldn't use Aquilani if he were to come, for we have Meireles. Is that right?

I think like the other lad that it's most likely that Gerrard will be played a bit deeper (now he's getting on a bit) in place of Lucas in our first choice 11.

Obviously I have heard of rotation and I'm not saying I don't think Lucas would ever play, just he is unlikely to be first choice.

[GrkStav]

are you saying he couldnt do that job?
lee carsley was good at it lad, stop trying to make out it`s rocket science

So, between Lucas and Gerrard who is more likely consistently to play the covering midfielder or first volante role better? Gerrard?

Who said it's "rocket science"?

[GrkStav]

I think like the other lad that it's most likely that Gerrard will be played a bit deeper (now he's getting on a bit) in place of Lucas in our first choice 11.

Obviously I have heard of rotation and I'm not saying I don't think Lucas would ever play, just he is unlikely to be first choice.

Seriously, you think that Kenny Dalglish will CHOOSE to have Gerrard as first-choice covering midfielder?

I guess that's why it's a discussion board.

[macmanaman]

I think like the other lad that it's most likely that Gerrard will be played a bit deeper (now he's getting on a bit) in place of Lucas in our first choice 11.

Obviously I have heard of rotation and I'm not saying I don't think Lucas would ever play, just he is unlikely to be first choice.

You know that a defensive midfield will cover a lot more ground than attacking midfield right ? So because Gerrard is getting on a bit now, he will have to play a role that will have to cover a lot more ground ? It sounds very logical.

[its cold in the stands]

So, between Lucas and Gerrard who is more likely consistently to play the covering midfielder or first volante role better? Gerrard?

Who said it's "rocket science"?

what the f##k is a first volante? you`ll have to explain that to me mate, i`ve only been going the game since 1975

[GrkStav]

I suppose it all depends on what folks mean by holding or defensive midfielder. I recently read a description of Barnes in his later years as a 'holding midfielder', for example.

Could Gerrard play as Barnes did near the end of his career? Possibly, I suppose.

[macmanaman]

I suppose it all depends on what folks mean by holding or defensive midfielder. I recently read a description of Barnes in his later years as a 'holding midfielder', for example.

Could Gerrard play as Barnes did near the end of his career? Possibly, I suppose.

I think a holding midfield role is what Alonso did in his time when he was here with Mash beside him to cover the back 4.

[its cold in the stands]

I suppose it all depends on what folks mean by holding or defensive midfielder. I recently read a description of Barnes in his later years as a 'holding midfielder', for example.

Could Gerrard play as Barnes did near the end of his career? Possibly, I suppose.

gerrard would be a lot better than barnes at it, barnes put on quite a bit of weight and lost a bit of mobility when he moved into midfield (though he was great at keeping the ball)

[GrkStav]

So, covering midfielder didn't explain it for ya, you had to jump on the term you were unfamiliar with so you can mis-direct the debate?

[JackB]

You know that a defensive midfield will cover a lot more ground than attacking midfield right ? So because Gerrard is getting on a bit now, he will have to play a role that will have to cover a lot more ground ? It sounds very logical.

A number players have played that role with distinction towards the end of their careers. Hamann and Makelele spring straight to mind.

[GrkStav]

A number players have played that role with distinction towards the end of their careers. Hamann and Makelele spring straight to mind.

You really do think, therefore, that in the presence of Lucas, Dalglish will SELECT Steven Gerrard as the holding midfielder most likely to be the 'closest' to the two or three center-backs instead.

Ok.

[its cold in the stands]

So, covering midfielder didn't explain it for ya, you had to jump on the term you were unfamiliar with so you can mis-direct the debate?

i dont know what a first volante is, could be f##king anything.

[macmanaman]

A number players have played that role with distinction towards the end of their careers. Hamann and Makelele spring straight to mind.

So before the end of their careers, they were playing attacking midfield ?
I really think you should have a doctor check you mental state mate, I really do.

[JackB]

You really do think, therefore, that in the presence of Lucas, Dalglish will SELECT Steven Gerrard as the holding midfielder most likely to be the 'closest' to the two or three center-backs instead.

Ok.

Highly possible.

I'm sorry if you take that as some sort of insult to yourself of Lucas, it's not meant to be. I just genuinely can see that scenario arising.

[JackB]

So before the end of their careers, they were playing attacking midfield ?
I really think you should have a doctor check you mental state mate, I really do.

I don't understand why you bother to use a forum if your reaction to someone disagreeing with you is to throw petty insults.

Gerrard was a wonderful player who could've played in all 10 outfield positions in his prime. I really don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility he could drop deeper into midfield as he gets older.

[The Portuguese Kopite]

Gerrard would become more of a deep-lying playmaker, sparking plays from almost next to Lucas, but with a slightly lower defensive work rate then Raul in front of the two as the attacking midfielder.

In that case, Gerrard would be more like Xabi, Lucas like Masch, and Raul like Gerrard.

Would easily work out well, and Adam would be brought in as a squad player, not a starter and he'd be best-suited at playing Gerrard's role of the deep-lying playmaker without heavy defensive duties.

[its cold in the stands]

Gerrard would become more of a deep-lying playmaker, sparking plays from almost next to Lucas, but with a slightly lower defensive work rate then Raul in front of the two as the attacking midfielder.

In that case, Gerrard would be more like Xabi, Lucas like Masch, and Raul like Gerrard.

Would easily work out well, and Adam would be brought in as a squad player, not a starter and he'd be best-suited at playing Gerrard's role of the deep-lying playmaker without heavy defensive duties.

if we get two widemen there will be only room for two center mids.