Topic: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form

[Fat Scouser]

I should know better than to even weigh into this, but...

Lucas is not good enough to be playing in that position for a team that wants to win the title.

That's not saying he is crap. That's not saying he won't become good enough. It's exactly what it says on the tin...

At this stage in his career, I don't think Lucas is good enough to boss midfield for a title winning team.

But the real problem is... what are the alternatives?

Give him time?
Pull Gerrard back next to Masch?
Play Gerrard in the position Rafa sees for Aqualini?
Play Benayoun between Gerrard and Nando?

I don't really know, but seems like Rafa has a decision to make.

[firing squad]

His pass completion ratio is exceptionally high.

yes but his number of attempts are significantly lower than the rest.

[DAYDAY]

With Aquilani now officialy crocked for 8 weeks and Levia set to take up Xabi,s position
I cant wait to see those opinions when we have drawn at least 3 of the 8 games

Said it a million times and will say it again................He,s a lazy B@stard and we may as
well be playing with 10 men

If he was that great Benitez wouldn,t have bothered with Alberto Aquilani

Blimey....

Did i say on august the 8th drawn 3....we have lost 2 of our opening 3 already

And to those of you that said Levia would eventually score goals

What a beauty....Reina was left for dead

Get Gerrard back in the middle till Alberto Aquilani is fit and let this kid

move to Accrington or cambridge

[smicer07]

Blimey....

Did i say on august the 8th drawn 3....we have lost 2 of our opening 3 already

And to those of you that said Levia would eventually score goals

What a beauty....Reina was left for dead

Get Gerrard back in the middle till Alberto Aquilani is fit and let this kid

move to Accrington or cambridge

  Nice fishing.

[mybacklight]

If you truly believe he has no ball control then I think it's you that needs to get your eyes tested. Very early on in the match last night he produced the best piece of control I've seen for a very long while. The ball was fired towards him on the edge of the box and he completely took all the pace out of the ball and pinged it to a red shirt all with one touch. It was a truly sublime 1st time pass.

Sorry mate, but one good pass does not equal a great player. Lucas should be able to do that on a consistent basis. He hasn't got it in my view, you stick to the saying he's OK, he does alright. He gets one pass out out of 100 passes etc....

The point is a weak player placed in one of the strongest positions is a recipe for disaster.

[Andy2006]

Sell him in january please Rafa.

[smicer07]

How on earth is Lucas being blamed for last night? There were at least 6 players worse than him. He's had a good start to the season and been one of our better players. This scapegoating really pisses me off.

[mybacklight]

Iam not scapegoating. Lucas hasnt got the quality to be included in a strong posistion centrally.

Rafa was to blame for last night, got his tatics way off and should have changed the layout at half time!

[Fat Scouser]

How on earth is Lucas being blamed for last night? There were at least 6 players worse than him. He's had a good start to the season and been one of our better players. This scapegoating really pisses me off.

Scapegoating, I can't stand it. But there's scapegoating and fact...
And it seems to me that the fact is, Lucas just isn't ready to boss midfield for a team that wants to win the title.

But the other, far more worrying fact, is... we don't have many options right at this moment.

In fact, we basically have 2...
Gamble on Lucas suddenly overnight turning into the player that he might become in another season or 2?
Or pull back Gerrard until Aqualini is fit?

[Red_Isle_Chap]

Scapegoating, I can't stand it. But there's scapegoating and fact...
And it seems to me that the fact is, Lucas just isn't ready to boss midfield for a team that wants to win the title.

But the other, far more worrying fact, is... we don't have many options right at this moment.

In fact, we basically have 2...
Gamble on Lucas suddenly overnight turning into the player that he might become in another season or 2?
Or pull back Gerrard until Aqualini is fit?

This is the same Gerrard who has, by his standards, been utter fucking shit in the 3 games this year FS? I can see why you don't think Lucas is ready, but I have severe doubts that Gerrard has the defensive mentality now to be able to step back into CM and boss the game.

[Fat Scouser]

This is the same Gerrard who has, by his standards, been utter fucking shit in the 3 games this year FS? I can see why you don't think Lucas is ready, but I have severe doubts that Gerrard has the defensive mentality now to be able to step back into CM and boss the game.

I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm just pointing out our options

[TipTopKop]

I should know better than to even weigh into this, but...

Lucas is not good enough to be playing in that position for a team that wants to win the title.

End of.

As Xavidub said, he wouldn't be playing if we had a proper budget.

[Fat Scouser]

Well, I'm out of this thread before I get sucked into another pointless discussion, and we all know why are options are limited right now, but I stick by what I've said

[Red_Isle_Chap]

I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm just pointing out our options

Yeah I know mate. Really, we're just in the shit because our replacement for lucas isn't ready to play yet.

[Stevie-G]

He is negative, no ball control, not aware of his surroundings, slow reactions, scared of taking the ball forward, passing is woefull plus against stronger opposition we have no chance with him. 

Sorry mate but i disagree with every single one of those points. First of all, we've beat teams such as United and Inter with him, secondly it is very easy for fans like us to watch a game and think a penetrating pass could be made every single time a midfielder has the ball, this is simply not the case. As soon as Lucas receives the ball 99% of the time his head instantly looks forward to see his options upfront, now if all a midfielder can see is 2 lines of 4 Aston villa players in front of him, it is extremely difficult to constantly make non-backwards passes.

The times which he did find space to slip in a pass to one of our more attacking players, they were simply stripped off the ball. But its much more easier to blame the young and inexperienced plays for losses, i guess...

[Adeemo]

Sorry mate, but one good pass does not equal a great player.

Never said it did, but you said he has no ball control, which to me seems utterly ludicrous as from what I've seen he has the best 1st touch in our squad.

[Dick Emery]

I can't see why people leap to his defence. He's obviously not a bad player but is he good enough? Of course he isn't. Is this his fault? No.

He is playing for Liverpool not some run-of-the-mill team.

[firing squad]

End of.

As Xavidub said, he wouldn't be playing if we had a proper budget.

Or if we hadn't spent 20 mill on a seriously injury prone player who was injured even at the time he was being bought and can't play until over a month into the season by which time we could be well behind the league leaders??

Or if we hadn't sold our talismanic playmaker  who still had 3 full years of contract which significantly weakened the team only 12 days before the season??

[smicer07]

I can't see why people leap to his defence. He's obviously not a bad player but is he good enough? Of course he isn't. Is this his fault? No.

He is playing for Liverpool not some run-of-the-mill team.

Blame Rafa then.

[Adeemo]

I can't see why people leap to his defence. He's obviously not a bad player but is he good enough? Of course he isn't. Is this his fault? No.

He is playing for Liverpool not some run-of-the-mill team.

The reason I defend him is because in my eyes to simply blame Lucas is completely missing the real issue, which is our lack of movement and 1 touch passing which in turn both hinders Lucas and the team as a whole.

[Dick Emery]

Blame Rafa then.

I do. He has known for months and months that Alonso was going to leave. His plan to replace him looks a little flimsy now.

[Fat Scouser]

Oh before I go, here's something to throw the cat in amongst the pigeons...
Rafa rightly defended Lucas last night and said it wasn't down to him. He made the point that the senior professionals had to take their part in the responsibility for what happened last night.

That's completely true, but I wonder if he included himself amongst them senior professionals?

[rocco]

I do. He has known for months and months that Alonso was going to leave. His plan to replace him looks a little flimsy now.

Maybe Rafa was promised he would get to spend the £30-35m on top of what we have brought in already.

[kkhaku]

Okay so let me get this straight.

Lucas is being made the scapegoat when clearly the problem last night was our attackers and inability to deal with or score from set pieces.

However, he's still not good enough to play central midfield in a title challenging team.

So what we want then is someone who can step in and almost singlehandedly change a game from central midfield when players like Gerrard, Torres, Kuyt, Yossi, and Babel aren't playing well enough to score goals. Yet we also want this player to be neat and tidy in midfield, retain posession well, and be defensively sound in the tackle like Xabi was.

I think I understand now. Our hopes now lie in Aquilani, or that VDV rumour coming true. Think we'd have been better of with Kaka though.

[rocco]

Oh before I go, here's something to throw the cat in amongst the pigeons...
Rafa rightly defended Lucas last night and said it wasn't down to him. He made the point that the senior professionals had to take their part in the responsibility for what happened last night.

That's completely true, but I wonder if he included himself amongst them senior professionals?

Thinking the same ...... but from my point of view it was how Glen and Insua didn't bomb forward and seemed under orders not to ?

[cmccarthy81]

Lucas is not good enough to be playing in that position for a team that wants to win the title.

That's not saying he is crap. That's not saying he won't become good enough. It's exactly what it says on the tin...

Agreed. I certainly think lucas is a decent player, he gives everything but he just doesn't impact the game enough at either end. He also seems to play in similar areas to masch, which almost leads to them getting under one anothers feet and they exchange 2 or 3 ten yard balls to each other. Niether of the pair have seem brave/confident enough to drive forward.

I think the only option is to drop gerrard back into CM, but who to play up top?.......I think Dirk, thought he looked good there for the dutch last week.

[Dick Emery]

The reason I defend him is because in my eyes to simply blame Lucas is completely missing the real issue, which is our lack of movement and 1 touch passing which in turn both hinders Lucas and the team as a whole.

Yes, but I think you are missing the point.

[Fat Scouser]

So what we want then is someone who can step in and almost singlehandedly change a game from central midfield when players like Gerrard, Torres, Kuyt, Yossi, and Babel aren't playing well enough to score goals. Yet we also want this player to be neat and tidy in midfield, retain posession well, and be defensively sound in the tackle like Xabi was.

You got it in one smartarse

[Red_Isle_Chap]

Oh before I go, here's something to throw the cat in amongst the pigeons...
Rafa rightly defended Lucas last night and said it wasn't down to him. He made the point that the senior professionals had to take their part in the responsibility for what happened last night.

That's completely true, but I wonder if he included himself amongst them senior professionals?

Maybe, maybe not FS. At the end of the day, the old saying of "once they cross the white line, there's pretty much nothing the manager can do about it" rings true.

It's the players that need to look at themselves and realise that they're not performing to the level that they're paid stupid money to do. Every one of the squad needs to man up, admit that they've been shit and put it right in the next game. For the ones that don't I do hope that a spell on the bench beckons and to be quite honest that applies to everyone bar reina at the moment. If that playing for your place fear isn't there then these performances will continue.

[mybacklight]

Never said it did, but you said he has no ball control, which to me seems utterly ludicrous as from what I've seen he has the .best 1st touch in our squad

"best 1st touch in our squad" Your having a laugh! Sorry but you need to watch a bit more closely. You got your opinion, Iam not going to argue the toss. You think he has ball control and I disagree. End of!

[Bennyo]

Right, after not enough, but at least some sleep I recognise I didn't make my point too well - and before I start I think it's worth noting that I'm NOT setting Lucas up as the reason we lost last night, he wasn't as pretty much everyone front to back had mares - he just did nothing but last night but frustrate.

As others have stated, he's passing completion stats are misleading. He gave a fucking load of hospital passes last night, which made the job of the receivers impossible and they invariably lost the ball (which they also did without Lucas' imput, but he didn't help). I think Gerrard's game was made to look even worse with the quality of the balls he received from Lucas, he got them, just it seemed to me he was often tackled two seconds later. I may point out that although Gerrard was also woeful at times yesterday he was EVERYWHERE last night, front to back, left and right trying to get some impetus into our play. No one delivered.

Ones that weren't hospital passes were horizontal short little numbers which did very little if anything to help build up play or relieve pressure, they just sort of took the blame off him when the ball is next lost and that is my main problem with him, as it was with Dirk last night (who I believe had a much worse game than Lucas), that they seem to believe that their job is simply to get the ball to the nearest red shirt and let them deal with it, which in front of goal was an agonising thing to watch.

I'm not crying out for Alonso, but it seems that Lucas last night could really have benefitted from being Alonso. They're not the same type of player at all, but he offered nothing that Alonso lacked, and offered nothing of what made Alonso good. I don't hate Lucas, and sometimes I've been impressed by him, but he's just not good enough.

[Dick Emery]

Maybe Rafa was promised he would get to spend the £30-35m on top of what we have brought in already.

Maybe you are right. But he did spend £20 million on a lad who hasn't kicked a ball since March. This doesn't look very smart now either.

[Marko B]

It doesn't matter that you don't 'care' - you're only a fan like the rest of us anyway.  'Long passes' led to nought?  Long balls isn't how we play?  Who mentioned long balls?  I said 40 yard pinpoint passes was what Alonso offered - not 100 yard/100 ft high hoofs to no-one in particular.

There's a reason he runs the game from centre of midfield for the Spanish.  There's a reason Real paid £30m for him, and it wasn't based on 'long ball' football.

Anyway he's gone now.  My point was there's a lack of creativity now in midfield, and then ...

'Creation' isn't the role of midfield?

Feck it mate, I give up.  Enjoy the season.

To me a 40 yard pass is a long pass, our principal game is one of short passes and movement, and that's how we play best. Sure there is a place for longer passing but for the most point it's unnecessary.

Sure there is a reason for that, it's got more to do with the players around him, have a look at their attributes on a continuum Xabi sits perfectly with attacking players such as Fabregas, Xavi and Iniesta who are all able to break down defences with their passing while using Xabi to retain the footy. Up until that point his role is principally to ensure that the ball is passed to those players. I'm not saying he wasn't a magnificent player.

My point is that even while he was here he did the simple job of providing the attackers with good service and then being an option to receive again once we were set in attack. He didn't do anything spectacular, he didn't need to. Lucas for all his criticism has done exactly the same thing only that he hasn't even had the chance to be in position to receive the ball again after delivering due to the manner in which our attackers time and time again have been losing possession.

Creation is a wonderful thing but our primary means of attack is through working passes through the defence, incorporating our attacking four and our full backs, or creating openings for our stronger and faster attacking players to run straight through. The role of creation lies primarily with these players not so much with our central midfielders who are primarily providers and distributors.

[Bennyo]

Maybe you are right. But he did spend £20 million on a lad who hasn't kicked a ball since March. This doesn't look very smart now either.

It'll look a better decision down the road. He's some player.

[scatman]

lol still Lucas gets the blame, not the fact that

Torres, Gerrard, Kuyt adn Benayoun hardly held up the ball and gave it away, and didnt fuckin score their chances.

Open your eyes people, we could have won by a cricket score. The gameplan wasnt wrong, it was the players up top.

[JamieB]

He doesn't lose the ball because he plays it simple. He doesn't look for the killer pass, he doesn't drive forward. He just doesn't offer anything in the final third of the pitch. We have Mascherano to do what he's doing.

[myrlas]

Lucas at fault for yesterday???

What about Cpt Marvel who was so pumped up on adrenalin after Torres scored - seeing the headline "Gerrard saves Liverpool yet again" in the horizon...and then goes on flying into endless numbers of tackles around our box, missing all of them ,until he finally at least hit a player on his forth attempt in 15 seconds like.

Villa parked the bus. We didn't cope since NONE of our offensive four delivered anything worth mentioning. Apart from giving the ball away easily.

Get a grip.

[kcbworth]

I reckon the problem with Lucas is he thinks he has to play differently than whatever way it was that led him to being awarded best player in the brazilian league, and he would think that because, he came over here full of momentum and then was basically told "ur not ready" and more often than not didnt even make the squad. I think I said as much at the time, that leaving him out would be damaging him, and it looks like that might be true. Personally think he needs someone to help inspire him to play however he did at Gremio at this point, because otherwise his career will stall badly, not to mention Liverpool's season.

[JamieB]

Lucas at fault for yesterday???

What about Cpt Marvel who was so pumped up on adrenalin after Torres scored - seeing the headline "Gerrard saves Liverpool yet again" in the horizon...and then goes on flying into endless numbers of tackles around our box, missing all of them ,until he finally at least hit a player on his forth attempt in 15 seconds like.

Villa parked the bus. We didn't cope since NONE of our offensive four delivered anything worth mentioning. Apart from giving the ball away easily.

Get a grip.

He wasn't at fault yesterday besides the first goal. He just doesn't offer anything in midfield. He's not the box to box midfielder he's suppose to be.

[scatman]

He wasn't at fault yesterday besides the first goal. He just doesn't offer anything in midfield. He's not the box to box midfielder he's suppose to be.

#

im actually sure if you watch the game again, you'll see he was in the box on numerous occasions, especially in the first half, but never recieved a pass. You know why? because when he actually knocked the ball forward and went forward to recieve, whoever he passed it to lost the ball.
It's Tottenham all over again, if the top 4 can't keep the ball, then you can't expect anything to happen.