Topic: Old photos of and around Liverpool

[The Gulleysucker]

I've seen those particular remnants before, it was just the ones opposite the Baltic I didn't realise still existed, but thanks for posting anyway, it's all good stuff in here.

I do wonder if those bits in your pics have any form of protection on them.

It would be  crying shame if every some demolition gang came along one day and simply torched them and sent them off to China for scrap.

I'm wondering if a blue plaque type of campaign might be needed to try and prevent them disappearing in such a manner.

Perhaps if anyone is going into the museum, they could ask if those bits have a preservation order on them and if not, why not?

[Red Beret]

I've seen those particular remnants before, it was just the ones opposite the Baltic I didn't realise still existed, but thanks for posting anyway, it's all good stuff in here.

I do wonder if those bits in your pics have any form of protection on them.

It would be  crying shame if every some demolition gang came along one day and simply torched them and sent them off to China for scrap.

I'm wondering if a blue plaque type of campaign might be needed to try and prevent them disappearing in such a manner.

Perhaps if anyone is going into the museum, they could ask if those bits have a preservation order on them and if not, why not?

The bits built into the wall at Wapping have a blue plaque on them; most of them seem to have been chopped down in height though.  The Northern dock wall was built into the railway and there are plenty of vertical stanchions remaining - just precious few horizontal pieces, which is why the pictures I took mean something personal to me.

[The Gulleysucker]

The bits built into the wall at Wapping have a blue plaque on them

Excellent and so they should. That's good news at least.
I wonder about those others you photographed though.
As you say, they must be the sole remaining horizontal pieces left in situ, unless someones got a chunk in their back garden somewhere.
Stranger things have happened, I've heard that it was discovered that plates from the Tirpitz are still in use in Norway for road repairs, covering potholes and such.

[Big Red Richie]

The bits built into the wall at Wapping have a blue plaque on them; most of them seem to have been chopped down in height though.  The Northern dock wall was built into the railway and there are plenty of vertical stanchions remaining - just precious few horizontal pieces, which is why the pictures I took mean something personal to me.

Is there actually a 'Blue Plaque' ?   Ie: English heritage plaque. 

If there is, I've never seen it.


Or are you confusing it with this one, which is on the wall of the very small building at the strand side of the Mersey Tunnel office/ventilation shaft, just near the old green Maersey tunnel toll booth?

Edit: Sorry, just realised you said Wapping, not the strand (or Goree plaza  ).

[Tsar Kastik]

A few of the Overhead on here...


 http://viewfinder.english-heritage.org.uk/search/results.aspx?index=12&mainQuery=liverpool%20overhead%20railway&searchType=all&form=home

[John_P]

Also, don't know if anyone has seen the new Sherlock Holmes film, but some of the scenes where shot here and around Stanley and Clarence dock. I thought I recognised it in the cinema, that lifting bridge on Vauxhall is quite unique.

they shot some of Captain America there as well.

terrible looking back at some of the great buildings, and modes of transport this city has done away with over the years.

also according to my dad this was one of the stations for the overhead railway, or at least the stairs up to it
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=harrison+way,+liverpool&hl=en&ll=53.382394,-2.976179&spn=0.010495,0.033023&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=21.383044,67.631836&vpsrc=0&hnear=Harrison+Way,+United+Kingdom&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.382443,-2.97624&panoid=I5JzFqGjSdbDUsjXxKO--g&cbp=12,25.5,,0,0.82

[Tsar Kastik]

this one from Hoogbouw off Skyscraper city, some other gooduns from there http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=204156&page=19

[The Gulleysucker]

Just checked Google street view and I can't see a blue plaque at Wapping.  Maybe I did imagine it after all... 

Yes, I had a looksee myself on streetview and couldn't see any plaques along Wapping but I would imagine that whole wall is preserved.

Some great pictures there Tsar.

That Lister Drive photo on the next page...



I remember the remains of the camouflage paint on the cooling towers.

Whenever we went to Newsham, my Dad would always let me go over to look at the shunting that would be going on in the sidings at the power station.

I recall being told a story of some workmen dying when building those towers, scaffold collapse or something though I might be getting mixed up with another set of towers elsewhere though.

Some great ones also on page 17 of that thread too.

A Flat Top lower right moored at Pier Head..



Looks like a Centaur class, no angle deck upgrade, possibly Bulwark or Albion.

I remember seeing three carriers lined up off the Mersey bar from Waterloo beach sometime in the very early 60's.

[The Gulleysucker]

I'm not convinced that's a British carrier but if I had to guess I'd say it was either HMS Ark Royal (Audacious class) or HMS Hermes (Centaur class).  Ark Royal was decommissioned 1978 and Hermes was sold to India after the Falklands and is still going strong.  HMS Eagle was also Audacious class but was decommissioned in 1972 which makes it less likely.

Yes, but both the Ark and Hermes had angle decks by the late 60's which is why I was plumping for the old Bulwark or Albion, which although soldiering on till the early 80's would fit the timeframe of the photo,  neither ever had that upgrade and that carrier in the picture doesn't have an angle deck. Ark and Hermes also had the huge searchlight type radar on top of the tower around that probable time.
Just noticed, if you look closely you can just make out the circles for the helicopter landing zones along the deck so I think it's highly likely one of those two commando carriers.

Edit. Just noticed Albion was struck off in 72 so I'm guessing it's likely Bulwark.

And a further edit, visits of aircraft carriers to the Mersey .. http://derbosoft.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=history&action=print&thread=1790

After H.M.S. ALBION, LIVERPOOL PIER HEAD, May 1967

I'm guessing from the landmarks that the possible time frame of the picture makes it one of these...

H.M.S. EAGLE, PIER HEAD, February/March 1970
H.M.S. ALBION, PIER HEAD, May 1970
H.M.S. ARK ROYAL, LANDING STAGE, June 1970
H.M.S. BULWARK, LIVERPOOL PIER HEAD, 30th June - 6th July 1971

My favourite is probably that last one.

[Big Red Richie]

Yes, I had a looksee myself on streetview and couldn't see any plaques along Wapping but I would imagine that whole wall is preserved.

I don't know if it's been posted in this thread or not, but here's a good reference site for anyone, regarding buildings in Liverpool.

It lists all of Liverpool's Listed buildings.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/41295712/Listed-Buildings-Liverpool

I don't know how up to date it is ( latest listed date's seem to be 2006), but it's a good reference source.

It's actuall quite amusing if you scan through it, as it's not just buildings that get listed status, but Phone boxes, letter boxes, walls, railings and a few other odd things.

[Tsar Kastik]

Google street view for #906...best I can do

[The Gulleysucker]

.....also according to my dad this was one of the stations for the overhead railway, or at least the stairs up to it.....

Sadly, while it would be nice if it was, it's doubtful.

While it's in the general locatoon of Herculaneum Station, it's on the wrong side of the road, the LOH ran to the left here in that view, ie the river side.

What was around there on that land side though was a lot of other railway things, the large CL Brunswick yard for one ...



You can see the yard here underneath the elevated section carrying the LOH off to the tunnel in the rockface to Dingle.

A bit further back from where that photo was taken, this Brunswick yard had a bridge over it, called Horsfall street. You can see it on the map here...



That ramp and steps led up to and connected with what now remains of Horsfall Street the far side of the lines over by Caryl Street

Found this as well which seems to confirm it..

http://www.flickr.com/photos/happyraildays/6603569165/in/photostream

That guy has a load of good pictures in his stream...http://www.flickr.com/photos/happyraildays/with/6603569165/ well worth a browse.

[jackh]

Horsefall St remains but, if I remember correctly, runs to a 90 degree angle to the map above (towards the flats shown on your flickr photo above).

My girlfriend has, this week, moved out of the City Quay flats (behind Greens gym) which are on the site of the old Herculaneum Dock - I presume that the Brunswick yard shown in the shot above is the site which is now everything between Brunswick Station and City Quay?

[The Gulleysucker]

Horsefall St remains but, if I remember correctly, runs to a 90 degree angle to the map above (towards the flats shown on your flickr photo above).

My girlfriend has, this week, moved out of the City Quay flats (behind Greens gym) which are on the site of the old Herculaneum Dock - I presume that the Brunswick yard shown in the shot above is the site which is now everything between Brunswick Station and City Quay?

It's all quite complex.

Here's the Admiralty plan from way back..



Here's a shot of Herculaneum and the Graving docks from 1907 looking east. You can see the CL yard at the lower right and the LOH girder bridge leading to the tunnel for Dingle.



Here's a view looking west from along side the Graving dock..



This is the view of the yard from the overbridge marked Herculaneum in the map from my post before..



In it you can see that the houses along the top, ie Grafton Street, have now been built on the land that was empty in the photo up above. Note at the left hand there is a tunnel with a steam engine about to enter. That tunnel is still there and the line still uses it.

In streetview here you can see a train about to enter it.

In the photo below is shot of the complex including Toxteth and Harrington docks.



In this you can make out the then road layout, you can even see the bridges over the CL yard, including the Horsefall Street one, and you should be able to make out the LOH.

That last photo is from a great site, shows lots of the docks, ... http://www.merchantnavyofficers.com/topp.html

Here it all is looking west in 2001..



Here's a photo of the Herculaneum LOH bridge partly dismantled..



You are looking back towards town in that and beyond those gates underneath was then the CL yard.

The above bridge went into this tunnel mouth below that is still there today...



Hopefully you should be able to get some bearings on the layout now.

[Big Red Richie]

Excellent research.

Just one question.  What is  'CL' that you are refering to?   (Cheshire Lines ?)

[The Gulleysucker]

Just one question.  What is  'CL' that you are refering to?   (Cheshire Lines ?)

Yes Richie, sorry. (I should really have put CLC as it was Cheshire Lines Committee.)

As you probably know, they had quite an extensive rail system around and into Liverpool and even stretching up to Southport via Aintree/Old Roan though most of it has now long gone or converted to cycle tracks.

The line through Walton/Broadway/West Derby/Knotty Ash etc was originally CLC, was superb quality originally, and should never have been allowed to fall into disuse and now been built on in several places as it would have been perfect for a light rail tramway around the suburbs and into town.

As usual, an other example of great forward planning.

[jackh]

Top post, Gulleysucker - looking forward to showing her that later on!

Interesting to see just how much land has been reclaimed - particularly from the second photo in that post.

[Red Beret]

Excellent work.  That tunnel serves as part of the northern line now.  Most of that yard has flats built on it but the wagon houses are still there.

[The Gulleysucker]

Found a few more of Herculaneum (amongst others) when under construction here...http://www.antique-maps-books.com/3623.htm .




"Commencement of Petroleum stores, Herculaneum Dock. Liverpool.1882. Each Store is a Short Tunnel 60ft long in the Sandstone Rock"

That's these ....





and today....





Here's a pic of some of the houses being built and before the shallow imitation of the original dock was filled..



And here are some more of the dock in operation..

Unloading coal


and right at the end of its life...http://www.flickr.com/photos/happyraildays/6238492095/ (can't embed as flikr)

and a history here ... http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/nof/docks/access/dock_history12.html that includes this...

1972 
Herculaneum Dock closes and is filled shortly after. The oil trade has moved across the river to Tranmere. The casemates are still very cheap to rent so are used to store explosives, radioactive substances and sometimes wine and cotton.

[jackh]

It's very nice these days as an apartment complex - really enjoying the old pictures of it.

[Red Beret]

I almost rented an apartment there.  Although the pads are very nice I feel a sense of loss that the goods sheds are now obscured.  Love those old images though - some of them must be really old.

[kavah]

My Daughter's interested in Photography and found this picture on a website were the person colorizes old photos.

the caption reads "Canada Dock 1909, 2nd left is The Mauretania's 1st Chief Engineer, John Currie" I assume this isn't The Maury?

[Terry de Niro]

My Daughter's interested in Photography and found this picture on a website were the person colorizes old photos.

the caption reads "Canada Dock 1909, 2nd left is The Mauretania's 1st Chief Engineer, John Currie" I assume this isn't The Maury?

Although I love modern technology I actually prefer the old black and white pictures in their original form.
They have so much more character.

[Ylva]

Although I love modern technology I actually prefer the old black and white pictures in their original form.
They have so much more character.

Not if the colorizing was done 100 years ago;) I'd say old, colorized photos has much more charm than black/white photos, because it was such a time taking process. Anything done with Photoshop is crap.

I love this thread - it makes even me nostalgic.

[The Gulleysucker]

....... I assume this isn't The Maury?

I think it probably is...



From wiki

The straps on the rudder and the position of the props seem to match, though the outer props in your pic show 4 blades instead of three as on the stocks above. (They possibly had been changed since the launch, I'll try and find out.)

But!!! The Mauretania in the picture wasn't the one built at Cammell Lairds , it was built  at Swan, Hunter & Wigham Richardson, Wallsend-on-Tyne  in 1906.

The Cammell Laird one was built in 1939 to replace this one.

At a guess, that pic of yours was probably taken in the graving dock to the right between Canada No1 & No2in the map below.


I bet they had fun piloting her into the basin and then through the gates.

[Terry de Niro]

Here's a few arl photos of Scottie road.

Found them on this site http://www.myliverpoolforum.org/


Scotland Road 1908





Byrom Street





Byrom Street again





Gaiety Theatre, Scotland Road






Demolition of Brunswick Road?

[John C]

Some amazing pics in here lads.

[Big Red Richie]

Terry.

That last pic can't be Scotty surely.

If thats the Royal Hossy in the background, then surely it around about Erskine Street, Brunswick Road area. Where the industrial estate now is, at the top of Islington.

[Terry de Niro]

Here's few of the 65 FA cup home coming...

Found these on this site http://www.myliverpoolforum.org/  You have to register to join but it's well worth it.

[The Gulleysucker]

Terry, isn't that the Royal being built in the background? I reckon that one's taken more from the Brunswick Road area around here.

[Terry de Niro]

Terry.

That last pic can't be Scotty surely.

If thats the Royal Hossy in the background, then surely it around about Erskine Street, Brunswick Road area. Where the industrial estate now is, at the top of Islington.

I thought that myself when I just looked back.
They were in a topic on that site with Scottie road as the title. You're defo right mate..

[Big Red Richie]

Ay Terry.  You know your memories of that cup final day.


Are they in colour, or black and white?   

[Terry de Niro]

Terry, isn't that the Royal being built in the background? I reckon that one's taken more from the Brunswick Road area around

I've corrected it GS..

[Terry de Niro]

Ay Terry.  You know your memories of that cup final day.


Are they in colour, or black and white?   

and for those of you who are watching in black and white, Liverpool are the team with the ball..

[scouserdave]

Here's few of the 65 FA cup home coming...

Who took the pics Terry? FFS mate, you've posted over 40k mate. Surely you know by now to do the decent thing and give credit to the photographer?

[The Gulleysucker]

I've had a mooch around and I  think I've found the explanation for the outer propellors being 4 blade in the Canada Dock  picture and yet only 3 bladed when she was on the builders slipway...

During speed trials, these engines caused significant vibration at high speeds; in response, Mauretania received strengthening members and redesigned propellers before entering service, which reduced vibration.   wiki

There's also a picture dated 1908 here ..



...that looks like it was possibly taken also in Canada Dock, obviously there's evidence of work going on with various ladders and stuff that's different, but the background of the dock walls certainly resembles the scene in your photo. I can't make out the outer propellor blades though.

I'm beginning to wonder if the reason it was put in Canada Dock was to do the changes to the propellors as in here it says...

Within months of her re-entry into service with the new propellers in 1909 the Mauretania held both the East and West Riband; from September of 1909 she alone would hold both.

I'm suspecting wiki is possibly wrong as to when the propellors got changed and also possibly even that the wiki photo should be dated 1909 like yours (though I suppose it could be late '08), as that link just seems a little bit more authoritative and detailed than wiki, and I have a hunch your photo was possibly taken after the work had been done in Canada dock and just before she was about to resume service.

[Terry de Niro]

Who took the pics Terry? FFS mate, you've posted over 40k mate. Surely you know by now to do the decent thing and give credit to the photographer?

Found them on here http://www.myliverpoolforum.org/ Like I said earlier..

Oh, hang on...I haven't got a clue who took them..
Wish I did.

Just thought I'd share them on here anyway if that is OK with you?

See, most of the photos that have been posted on this thread have been found on little goldmine websites such as I and others have found by chance.
And I would never take any credit what so ever, and if indeed if you care to look back through this tremendous thread I think you my find that, this is the case with most of the "Old photos of and around Liverpool" that we have all posted.. 

[scouserdave]

A couple of years ago, I bought George Chandler’s Liverpool (1957) book off Ebay. I was leafing through the pages and a news cutting fell out. It was a 1962 article by the hugely respected Quentin Hughes who championed the preservation of Liverpool’s buildings. The article predates Hughes’ seminal work, Seaport by 2 years. It’s still relevant now. I wonder what Quentin Hughes would think of some our recent developments?
Also, I never knew the Echo used to be called the Liverpool Echo and Evening Express.

[Red Beret]

Terry, isn't that the Royal being built in the background? I reckon that one's taken more from the Brunswick Road area around here.

I live on Shaw Street so I'd say you're right.  A lot of streets in that area have been demolished and landscaped over into parkland.  That shot might be on Epworth Street though - it may have been a longer road back then before the demolition and road building?

[John C]

Here's few of the 65 FA cup home coming...

They're brilliant mate, before I even saw the boss pic of St John on the bus looking so relaxed I was struck by how organised the Police were with the crowd. It was so controlled and civilized, if you know what I mean.