Topic: All this talk of megamillionbucks strikers...

[Joe_Singh]

If Rafa can't buy a decent striker we may as well sack him now.

Stupid thread.

[Vinay]

YES Sir.

[hooded claw]

If Rafa can't buy a decent striker we may as well sack him now.

Stupid thread.

So, O Wise One, is everything rosy in your garden? Or is it just the tint in your specs?

You reckon our current strikeforce is what we need to mount a credible challenge, yes?

And if not, why? They were all bought by the same person, weren't they?

So what makes you think it'll change once the chequebook opens?

Can't fucking ask a genuine question round here without cretins gabbling 'IN RAFA WE TRUST...IN RAFA WE TRUST...' like lobotomised herring.

[cornelius]

Morientes?

The thing is, I know it was Rafa who bought him but can you ultimately lay all of the blame at his door for that one? It wasn't just Rafa who expected Morientes to deliver, we all did. to be honest I'm more pissed off with Nando for the way he played than I am with Benitez for signing him.

It's like Shevchenko at Chelsea. They paid £30M for a top class proven goalscorer that pretty much any sane person thought would at the very least do reasonably well for them. Is it Chelsea's fault that he has flopped so far? Sometimes these things just don't work out. That's the risk you take with any transfer.

If Rafa buys a Torres or a Villa or an Eto'o (which looks pretty unlikely now) you'd expect them to be a success but there are no guarantees. So if he spends big I trust him because ultimately if a high calibre player with a big profile fails I'm not sure how much blame you can apportion to the manager anyway.

As for Kuyt and Crouch, thus far they have been ok without setting the world on fire but the jury is still out overall. They could both go on to greater things next season, we just don't know yet.

[hooded claw]

The thing is, I know it was Rafa who bought him but can you ultimately lay all of the blame at his door for that one? It wasn't just Rafa who expected Morientes to deliver, we all did. to be honest I'm more pissed off with Nando for the way he played than I am with Benitez for signing him.

It's like Shevchenko at Chelsea. They paid £30M for a top class proven goalscorer that pretty much any sane person thought would at the very least do reasonably well for them. Is it Chelsea's fault that he has flopped so far? Sometimes these things just don't work out. That's the risk you take with any transfer.

If Rafa buys a Torres or a Villa or an Eto'o (which looks pretty unlikely now) you'd expect them to be a success but there are no guarantees. So if he spends big I trust him because ultimately if a high calibre player with a big profile fails I'm not sure how much blame you can apportion to the manager anyway.

As for Kuyt and Crouch, thus far they have been ok without setting the world on fire but the jury is still out overall. They could both go on to greater things next season, we just don't know yet.

Completely valid point to say that there are no guarantees, and Shevchenko will be the textbook example of that. As far as Morientes goes, class footballer, but it's one thing to know who's a good player, and quite another to pick a player who can adapt to the unique qualities of the English game.

[Johnnyboy1973]

Completely valid point to say that there are no guarantees, and Shevchenko will be the textbook example of that. As far as Morientes goes, class footballer, but it's one thing to know who's a good player, and quite another to pick a player who can adapt to the unique qualities of the English game.

And even more so, to play him in the right fucking position.

[cornelius]

As far as Morientes goes, class footballer, but it's one thing to know who's a good player, and quite another to pick a player who can adapt to the unique qualities of the English game.

You and others say that but Morientes was utter dog shit in Europe too. I just think it was more of a case of the wrong person, in the wrong place, at the wrong time.

And even more so, to play him in the right fucking position.

You can make excuses for Nando but the fact is he missed sitters aplenty, couldn't make the ball stick, fell over all the time etc etc. Nothing to do with how Rafa utilised him. There's no defence for some of his woeful performances.

[-HH-]

Personally, yes.

I don't like the suggestions about the likes of Berbatov and McCarthy somehow being great successes compared to our current crop of strikers. They're playing in sides which don't get the benefit of 10 man behind the ball syndrome every week and (at least in Berbatov's case) play in sides with a more attacking tactical set up too. As has already been pointed out Berbatov's league record is no great improvement on Kuyt or Crouch, if indeed it is an improvement at all.

Crouch and Bellamy have both proved they can score goals for lesser sides easier than they have here, so it can reasonably be assumed that Berbatov and McCarthy would be in a similar position in our side. Don't get me wrong, they've both been good signings, but I don't think they'd have been any better in our set up than what we've currently got.

In terms of quality, you generally get what you pay for. Bellamy's quality on the ball and in our general play has been excellent, but he hasn't scored enough goals. Kuyt and Crouch only have a lack of pace as obvious weaknesses to their game.

I think Rafa looks for all round quality strikers, not just goalscorers, not just creators, but people who can do both. He's done that as well as is possible on the budget he's got, and deserves the opportunity to spend properly on his strikeforce.

[lc7djb]

Anybody here think it's irrelevant which striker(s) we sign, as Rafa's style of play means we just don't create the chances to be converted in the first place?

Not having a pop at Rafa, just don't think we've been a team that creates a decent number of chances for our strikers since Royston was manager.

Guess what I am trying to say is that I think people are maybe expecting any new signing to score 20+, which I just don't see happening with our current style.

[gritsvanilla]

Shankly wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes with some of these so called modern fans, 2 Champions League finals in 3 years and all this achieved with a limited budget and yet still people question Benitez' abilities both on and off the field, another ludicrous thread, i got away from .tv for this reason yet over the last 3 weeks this place seems to be going the same way.

[Richio76]

Shankly wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes with some of these so called modern fans, 2 Champions League finals in 3 years and all this achieved with a limited budget and yet still people question Benitez' abilities both on and off the field, another ludicrous thread, i got away from .tv for this reason yet over the last 3 weeks this place seems to be going the same way.

Limited budget my ass.

[mossleyhilkida]

The only two strickers who were the 'wrong em boyos' were Nando and Bellamy other than that I definately have faith in Kuyt and I think Crouch has already proved himself. Where else is there any evidence of Rafa being bad at signing forwards?

[mossleyhilkida]

Limited budget my ass.

It clearly was a limited bidget, otherwise we would have Alves playing for us

[Huyton_Red]

I think crouch was a brilliant buy and is a cracking forward, as I have said on numerous occasions we would have won the final if crouch had started

Best performance of last season was when we battered arsenal at home with crouch on his own up front getting a hat-trick

The rest of the strikers he has bought I have to say the jury is out on, I am not convinced by Kuyt me, on his own up front he is not up to it and he does not have the guile of a rooney or bergkamp to play in the hole

[Joe_Singh]

So, O Wise One, is everything rosy in your garden? Or is it just the tint in your specs?

You reckon our current strikeforce is what we need to mount a credible challenge, yes?

And if not, why? They were all bought by the same person, weren't they?

So what makes you think it'll change once the chequebook opens?

Can't fucking ask a genuine question round here without cretins gabbling 'IN RAFA WE TRUST...IN RAFA WE TRUST...' like lobotomised herring.

Its far from Rosy, Although the Jury is still out on Kuyt I don't think we have enough to mount a credible challenge, we've been lacking a cutting edge since Michael Owen left.

I think things would change if the chequebook opens because we would be able to afford strikers who have the pace and are able to finish(Thats just the start) Rafa is our current boss and we have to have faith in him to buy better strikers. Our last two decent strikers happend to be home grown. So we need to break this duck of buying dudd strikers at some point and therefore Rafa is the man.

So whats your solution to the problem of buying Dudd strikers?

[Huyton_Red]

So whats your solution to the problem of buying Dudd strikers?

Buy a good one ?

[Finn Solomon]

It's like Shevchenko at Chelsea. They paid £30M for a top class proven goalscorer that pretty much any sane person thought would at the very least do reasonably well for them. Is it Chelsea's fault that he has flopped so far?

Of course it is. Mourinho's fault, anyway.

We won't know unless we give him the money, and I'm sure Rafa won't be as idiotic as to treat one of the world's best strikers like dogshit and turn him into a laughingstock.

The only crap buy in the striking department has been Morientes, even Bellamy has done okay and it's not his fault he's been only given one season before being forced to move on. Give El Jefe the money and let him get his man.

[hooded claw]

So whats your solution to the problem of buying Dudd strikers?

I honestly don't have one. It's a question which perplexes me- and it's not the only thing about Benitez, much as I like him. I just get the feeling that now is crucial- we were led to believe money was available, but getting it wrong now could fuck us up big time in the long run.

[Bob Loblaw]

Begs the question... given his track record of signing strikers thus far- would you actually trust Benitez to spend £15-£20 million of whatever budget he ends up with? Honestly?

 

[cornelius]

Anybody here think it's irrelevant which striker(s) we sign, as Rafa's style of play means we just don't create the chances to be converted in the first place?

Not having a pop at Rafa, just don't think we've been a team that creates a decent number of chances for our strikers since Royston was manager.

The reason I don't agree with that is because I've lost count of the dozens and dozens of missed sitters by Crouch, Morientes, Bellamy, Kuyt and others at crucial moments.

Of course it is. Mourinho's fault, anyway.

Don't be daft. Shevchenko was in the team to start with and played like a human turd then when Mourinho left him on the bench, subbed him or left him out he went crying to his comrade. The source of the problem is Shevchenko and his fragile character.

[mossleyhilkida]

I honestly don't have one. It's a question which perplexes me- and it's not the only thing about Benitez, much as I like him. I just get the feeling that now is crucial- we were led to believe money was available, but getting it wrong now could fuck us up big time in the long run.

Who are the dudd forwards? I can count two that Benitez has signed. I concur that we have a problem in our attack but I don't know if that is necessarily related to the strikers

[hooded claw]

I'd expect a more witty or devastating put-down that that, from a man with an AD avatar 

[hooded claw]

Who are the dudd forwards? I can count two that Benitez has signed. I concur that we have a problem in our attack but I don't know if that is necessarily related to the strikers

Could it be then that his formation/tactics are insufficient to get the best out of them?
Incidentally, who are your two duds? Morientes and ....?

[Finn Solomon]

Don't be daft. Shevchenko was in the team to start with and played like a human turd then when Mourinho left him on the bench, subbed him or left him out he went crying to his comrade. The source of the problem is Shevchenko and his fragile character.

Take the blinkers off. Sheva might be more SNAG than is good for him, but Mourinho going out of his way to make it clear he hated the poor sod, subbing him off when Drogba was clearly injured for instance, didn't help a bit. The source of the problem is managers who fail to understand each player needs a different approach, like Rafa not getting along with Stevie. The difference and the point of it is that Sheva was bought for Mourinho while Rafa would probably pick his own man, so there's not likely to be any player-manager friction.

[cornelius]

Take the blinkers off. Sheva might be more SNAG than is good for him, but Mourinho going out of his way to make it clear he hated the poor sod, subbing him off when Drogba was clearly injured for instance, didn't help a bit. The source of the problem is managers who fail to understand each player needs a different approach, like Rafa not getting along with Stevie. The difference and the point of it is that Sheva was bought for Mourinho while Rafa would probably pick his own man, so there's not likely to be any player-manager friction.

I'm sorry but a real man and a truly great player doesn't sulk under those circumstances, he socks it to everybody by doing it out there on the pitch. And Shevchenko has had ample oppotunity to prove Mourinho wrong.

[Tosh]

Could it be then that his formation/tactics are insufficient to get the best out of them?
Incidentally, who are your two duds? Morientes and ....?

I understand the initial question.. but for me the answer lies beyond goal-scoring heroics. What we are crying out for is a more complete striker, who can bundle in a decent number of goals but who also sets up those around him, providing us with more goals from midfield. We always seem to create endless "chances" every game, but most of the chances are shite and fairly difficult to put away. My hope is that an Eto'o, Villa or Tevez creates more space/better pass etc. that turns those "half-chances" into 3/4 chances or better.. handing goals on a platter to those around them.

Maybe that's simplistic, but that's my hope from a ludicrously expensive forward. Questions of adaptability to the league etc. not withstanding of course.

[mossleyhilkida]

Could it be then that his formation/tactics are insufficient to get the best out of them?
Incidentally, who are your two duds? Morientes and ....?

Well I struggle to call Bellamy a dud but.........he was just offside too much

[Finn Solomon]

I'm sorry but a real man and a truly great player doesn't sulk under those circumstances, he socks it to everybody by doing it out there on the pitch. And Shevchenko has had ample oppotunity to prove Mourinho wrong.

  Sheva has been more than professional. Maybe he does moan a bit to mates, mates who include the owner of the club, but during press conferences and such it's always been "I will work harder for Chelsea" and "There is nothing between me and Mourinho." Much better than the stuff that would be spouted by an Henry, or say Eto'o.

[cornelius]

Sheva has been more than professional.

What by using his friendship with the chairman to get his own way?

[NatD]

I want it all and I want it now...!

[cornelius]

I want it all and I want it now...!

Well to be fair, we have been waiting fairly patiently for 17 years.

[RumDrinker]

Sort of off topic but I said that Shevchenko would fail in the premiership.

I'm fucking boss I am.

Didnt our shitty strikers score a very similar amount of goals as Uniteds, Chelsea's and Arsenals?
Kuyt and Crouch are very good players and Bellamy is potentially a brilliant player but he hasn't got his head screwed on right(wink). You could argue that Benitez should have factored that in when signing him...but Bellamy did come at basically half price.

Rafa's record at this striker signing malarky is alright and in the case of Morientes is hard to know were to lay blame for that failure. To answer the question I would trust him to sign us a good striker to help us challenge for the League...Cup.

[Finn Solomon]

What by using his friendship with the chairman to get his own way?

If being frozen out and being made a laughingstock is getting his way I'd like to see what happens when he lets things be.

[liverpooll]

Mentioned it on another thread

i fail to understand how people are saying we are very late already

i mean we had vorinin signed way before the transfer windows starts and we also signed lucas out of no where

Actually to be fear,it is better to be in this situation rather than seeing us buying big wrong money players early on

So it is better for people to underestimate us than us falling from high hopes!

[Withnail]

Could it be then that his formation/tactics are insufficient to get the best out of them?
Incidentally, who are your two duds? Morientes and ....?

Indeed jon, they seem to spend more time on the wing than in the box.

[Tosh]

Mentioned it on another thread

i fail to understand how people are saying we are very late already

i mean we had vorinin signed way before the transfer windows starts and we also signed lucas out of no where

Actually to be fear,it is better to be in this situation rather than seeing us buying big wrong money players early on

So it is better for people to underestimate us than us falling from high hopes!

Yes, but we didn't jizz 50 million pounds on 3 players in 2 days. Fucking classic case of cock-envy if ever I've seen one!

[cornelius]

If being frozen out and being made a laughingstock is getting his way I'd like to see what happens when he lets things be.

Yes and that is why you have to applaud Jose on this. Shevchecko's little plan didn't work because Mourinho held his nerve but the tension it caused may well have been what cost them the title.

If Roman had a fucking brain he'd have realised this at the time and told his buddy to get on with it and do his talking on the pitch.

What you seem to be suggesting is that Mourinho should have just persisted with Shevchenko week in week out regardless of how bad he was playing. Which is pretty much what Shevchenko was trying to achieve by running off to Abramovich.

[Garstonite]

The only striker I've ever seen do the donkey-work for the side and manage to score on a consistent basis at the same time is Ian Rush. A massively rare breed and people like Kuyt and Bellamy aren't good enough to do both. Time to sign a lazy bastard who can stick the ball in the frigging net.

[Finn Solomon]

What you seem to be suggesting is that Mourinho should have just persisted with Shevchenko week in week out regardless of how bad he was playing. Which is pretty much what Shevchenko was trying to achieve by running off to Abramovich.

No, players should be benched when the manager decides, but it's so bleedin' obvious it's personal between Mourinho and Shevchenko. Shev wasn't in the best of form, but treating him like crap is hardly the best way to get him acclimatised to the English league.

Anyway it's a good thing Mourinho's tactics call for a lone striker system, or it'll be even harder for him to get away with it.

[cornelius]

but it's so bleedin' obvious it's personal between Mourinho and Shevchenko.

Of course it was personal because when Mourinho dropped him, he went blabbing to the chairman. Abramovich then clearly put pressure on Mourinho to pick him but the problem was that when he did, Shevchenko continued to be rubbish.

I think Mourinho had every right to fuck Shevchenko off under the circumstances.

Chelsea would have been better off and maybe have even won the league if they'd totally dumped Shevchenko for the last part of the season and given more playing time to Kalou IMO.