Author Topic: Space exploration thread - Unexpected Rapid Disassembly in the launch area. (Read 316507 times)

Red Beret · « **Reply #400 on:** November 21, 2012, 02:57:53 pm »

Quote from: Lfsea on November 21, 2012, 02:55:27 pm

Sorry, I think you got the wrong end of my stick, so to speak

I was trying to be clever (probably the worst thread to chose such a stance!) and imply that by not answering your question, it meant that Farawayred was beavering away on this new discovery - thus far too busy for RAWK stuff.

Of course! Silly me!

They've probably found Redknapp's car door on Mars but they can't for the life of them figure out why the window isn't rolled down...

farawayred · « **Reply #401 on:** November 23, 2012, 05:40:28 pm »

The rover is drilling on mars today, cross fingers! If the first few drill holes go well, the drill will last longer than the mission. (I'll post updates after I get back from vacation.)

Renato · « **Reply #402 on:** November 23, 2012, 09:01:27 pm »

Quote from: hitman89762000 on November 21, 2012, 04:09:10 am

Does anyone think we'll be able to live on planets like mars in our lifetime?

No chance unless you're a billionaire and even then you'd be about 100 years old

Andy @ Allerton! · « **Reply #403 on:** November 23, 2012, 09:25:53 pm »

Quote from: hitman89762000 on November 21, 2012, 04:09:10 am

Does anyone think we'll be able to live on planets like mars in our lifetime?

This article from a few days ago is interesting..

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn22520-mars-is-safe-from-radiation--but-the-trip-there-isnt.html

Red Beret · « **Reply #404 on:** November 25, 2012, 03:26:28 pm »

Was browsing Wiki's space articles and found this interesting snippet:

Quote

Mariner 9 remains a derelict satellite in Mars orbit.[5] It is expected to remain in orbit until approximately 2022, when the spacecraft is projected to enter the Martian atmosphere and either burn up or crash to the planet's surface.[8]

Curiosity might still be operational in 2022 - the chance to observe a satellite entry/crash from the surface of another planet sounds intriguing, if perhaps not scientifically significant.

Oh and Andy, just on that interesting article about Mars' radiation, I'm wondering if any visiting astronauts might want to confine their activities to the long Martian twilights to protect against radiation exposure. Perhaps it would be viable for surface rovers to identify potential targets during the day that the astronauts could investigate during the evening.

Red Beret · « **Reply #405 on:** November 26, 2012, 04:24:55 pm »

Just on the eve of the first anniversary of the launch of the $2.5 billion Mars Science Laboratory (MSL) Curiosity mission which is on November 26, 2012, is the buzz that it could have possibly found evidence that conditions existed in the Red Planet which could have supported microbial life.

Right now it seems pure speculation, but the theory is gathering weight following a recent remark made by none other than the mission's principal investigator, John Grotzinger, to the US National Public Radio saying, "We're getting data from the Sample Analysis At Mars (SAM) instrument and is gonna be one for the history books. It's looking really good,'' he said. SAM is a miniature chemistry laboratory having the capability to analyse the contents of Martian soil and rocks.

Grotzinger declined to spell out the specifics saying that there would be no official announcement for several weeks since the data has to be rechecked and revalidated so that there was no slip this time. Indications are that there could be an announcement sometime between December 3 and 7, 2012 during a scientific meeting at San Fransisco.

He further added that the announcement regarding the discovery is also being delayed because scientists want to ensure that SAM was not measuring air brought along from Cape Canaveral in Florida during the MSL launch on November 26, 2011.

There is also a rule which stipulates that scientists cannot discuss their research until it is a officially published. This time, moreover , the scientific community is exercising considerable caution keeping in view the fiasco and controversy caused by the sensational announcement in August 1996 about finding organic compound in a Martian meteorite , ALH 84001, indicating that there could have been life on Mars. It was for this reason that Nasa is downplaying all talk of a major discovery by Curiosity.

After launch on November 26,2011, Curiosity touchdown on the Red Planet's Gale Crater after a nail biting manoeuvre at 11 a m (IST) on August 6,2012.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/science/Has-Curiosity-found-proof-of-life-on-Mars/articleshow/17367741.cms

Gili Gulu · « **Reply #406 on:** November 27, 2012, 04:49:08 pm »

Here's an interesting article about the Alcubierre drive from i09.com

Quote

A few months ago, physicist Harold White stunned the aeronautics world when he announced that he and his team at NASA had begun work on the development of a faster-than-light warp drive. His proposed design, an ingenious re-imagining of an Alcubierre Drive, may eventually result in an engine that can transport a spacecraft to the nearest star in a matter of weeks — and all without violating Einstein's law of relativity. We contacted White at NASA and asked him to explain how this real life warp drive could actually work.

The Alcubierre Drive

The idea came to White while he was considering a rather remarkable equation formulated by physicist Miguel Alcubierre. In his 1994 paper titled, "The Warp Drive: Hyper-Fast Travel Within General Relativity," Alcubierre suggested a mechanism by which space-time could be "warped" both in front of and behind a spacecraft.

How NASA might build its very first warp drive Michio Kaku dubbed Alcubierre's notion a "passport to the universe." It takes advantage of a quirk in the cosmological code that allows for the expansion and contraction of space-time, and could allow for hyper-fast travel between interstellar destinations. Essentially, the empty space behind a starship would be made to expand rapidly, pushing the craft in a forward direction — passengers would perceive it as movement despite the complete lack of acceleration.

White speculates that such a drive could result in "speeds" that could take a spacecraft to Alpha Centauri in a mere two weeks — even though the system is 4.3 light-years away.

In terms of the engine's mechanics, a spheroid object would be placed between two regions of space-time (one expanding and one contracting). A "warp bubble" would then be generated that moves space-time around the object, effectively repositioning it — the end result being faster-than-light travel without the spheroid (or spacecraft) having to move with respect to its local frame of reference.

"Remember, nothing locally exceeds the speed of light, but space can expand and contract at any speed," White told io9. "However, space-time is really stiff, so to create the expansion and contraction effect in a useful manner in order for us to reach interstellar destinations in reasonable time periods would require a lot of energy."

And indeed, early assessments published in the ensuing scientific literature suggested horrific amounts of energy — basically equal to the mass-energy of the planet Jupiter (what is 1.9 × 1027 kilograms or 317 Earth masses). As a result, the idea was brushed aside as being far too impractical. Even though nature allowed for a warp drive, it looked like we would never be able to build one ourselves.

"However," said White, "based on the analysis I did the last 18 months, there may be hope." The key, says White, may be in altering the geometry of the warp drive itself.

A new design

In October of last year, White was preparing for a talk he was to give for the kickoff to the 100 Year Starship project in Orlando, Florida. As he was pulling together his overview on space warp, he performed a sensitivity analysis for the field equations, more out of curiosity than anything else.

"My early results suggested I had discovered something that was in the math all along," he recalled. "I suddenly realized that if you made the thickness of the negative vacuum energy ring larger — like shifting from a belt shape to a donut shape — and oscillate the warp bubble, you can greatly reduce the energy required — perhaps making the idea plausible." White had adjusted the shape of Alcubierre's ring which surrounded the spheroid from something that was a flat halo to something that was thicker and curvier.

He presented the results of his Alcubierre Drive rethink a year later at the 100 Year Starship conference in Atlanta where he highlighted his new optimization approaches — a new design that could significantly reduce the amount of exotic matter required. And in fact, White says that the warp drive could be powered by a mass that's even less than that of the Voyager 1 spacecraft.

That's a significant change in calculations to say the least. The reduction in mass from a Jupiter-sized planet to an object that weighs a mere 1,600 pounds has completely reset White's sense of plausibility — and NASA's.

Hitting the lab

Theoretical plausibility is all fine and well, of course. What White needs now is a real-world proof-of-concept. So he's hit the lab and begun work on actual experiments.

"We're utilizing a modified Michelson-Morley interferometer — that allows us to measure microscopic perturbations in space time," he said. "In our case, we're attempting to make one of the legs of the interferometer appear to be a different length when we energize our test devices." White and his colleagues are trying to simulate the tweaked Alcubierre drive in miniature by using lasers to perturb space-time by one part in 10 million.

Of course, the interferometer isn't something that NASA would bolt onto a spaceship. Rather, it's part of a larger scientific pursuit.

"Our initial test device is implementing a ring of large potential energy — what we observe as blue shifted relative to the lab frame — by utilizing a ring of ceramic capacitors that are charged to tens of thousands of volts," he told us. "We will increase the fidelity of our test devices and continue to enhance the sensitivity of the warp field interferometer — eventually using devices to directly generate negative vacuum energy."

He points out that Casimir cavities, physical forces that arise from a quantized field, may represent a viable approach.

And it's through these experiments, hopes White, that NASA can go from the theoretical to the practical.
Waiting for that "Chicago Pile" moment

Given just how fantastic this all appears, we asked White if he truly thinks a warp-generating spacecraft might someday be constructed.

"Mathematically, the field equations predict that this is possible, but it remains to be seen if we could ever reduce this to practice."

What White is waiting for is existence of proof — what he's calling a "Chicago Pile" moment — a reference to a great practical example.

"In late 1942, humanity activated the first nuclear reactor in Chicago generating a whopping half Watt — not enough to power a light bulb," he said. "However, just under one year later, we activated a ~4MW reactor which is enough to power a small town. Existence proof is important."

His cautious approach notwithstanding, White did admit that a real-world warp drive could create some fascinating possibilities for space travel — and would certainly reset our sense of the vastness of the cosmos.

"This loophole in general relativity would allow us to go places really fast as measured by both Earth observers, and observers on the ship — trips measured in weeks or months as opposed to decades and centuries," he said.

But for now, pursuit of this idea is very much in science mode. "I'm not ready to discuss much beyond the math and very controlled modest approaches in the lab," he said.

Which makes complete sense to us, as well. But thanks to these preliminary efforts, White has already done much to instill a renewed sense of hope and excitement over the possibilities. Faster-than-light travel may await us yet.

Macphisto80 · « **Reply #407 on:** November 27, 2012, 05:15:31 pm »

Quote from: hitman89762000 on November 21, 2012, 04:09:10 am

Does anyone think we'll be able to live on planets like mars in our lifetime?

Not a chance. We can't get our heads around sorting out things like recession, poverty, and basic human needs and rights like clean drinking water in poorer parts of the world, all because of money. Forget about setting up a colony on Mars. I seriously doubt that will ever happen in human history.

Red Beret · « **Reply #408 on:** November 27, 2012, 05:50:12 pm »

Quote from: leftfooter on November 27, 2012, 04:49:08 pm

Here's an interesting article about the Alcubierre drive from i09.com

"The ability to fold space; that is, to travel anywhere in the universe... without moving."

Seems to be right out of Dune that concept.

As for colonisation, well it's nearly 45 years since we landed on the moon and it took a lot of nations bitching just to get ISS into low Earth Orbit, so I'd say it's unlikely.

Best bet for Mars is a rapid transit exploration. Easiest way to do that is to send a ship on a high energy orbit and dispatch an automated refueling ship right after it. That way the astronauts don't have to haul 'dead' mass they wouldn't need until the return journey.

Gili Gulu · « **Reply #409 on:** November 27, 2012, 06:33:10 pm »

Quote from: Red Beret on November 27, 2012, 05:50:12 pm

Best bet for Mars is a rapid transit exploration. Easiest way to do that is to send a ship on a high energy orbit and dispatch an automated refueling ship right after it. That way the astronauts don't have to haul 'dead' mass they wouldn't need until the return journey.

Buzz Aldrin came up with an energy-efficient method for getting to Mars called the Aldrin Cycler.

Renato · « **Reply #410 on:** November 27, 2012, 08:18:37 pm »

Quote from: Macphisto80 on November 27, 2012, 05:15:31 pm

Not a chance. We can't get our heads around sorting out things like recession, poverty, and basic human needs and rights like clean drinking water in poorer parts of the world, all because of money. Forget about setting up a colony on Mars. I seriously doubt that will ever happen in human history.

Nailed on eventually I reckon, would be surprised though if it happened in the next hundred years

Paddock. · « **Reply #411 on:** November 28, 2012, 05:58:34 pm »

Jupiter is visible to the naked eye tonight. Closest 'star' to the moon, take a look

The Gulleysucker · « **Reply #412 on:** November 28, 2012, 06:21:04 pm »

In other news, Skylon, son of Hotol is coming along nicely.

The UK company developing an engine for a new type of spaceplane says it has successfully demonstrated the power unit's enabling technology.
Reaction Engines Ltd (REL) of Culham, Oxfordshire, ran a series of tests on key elements of its Sabre propulsion system under the independent eye of the European Space Agency (Esa).
Esa's experts have confirmed that all the demonstration objectives were met.
REL claims the major technical obstacle to its ideas has now been removed.
"This is a big moment; it really is quite a big step forward in propulsion," said Alan Bond, the driving force behind the Sabre engine concept.
The company must now raise the £250m needed to complete the next phase of development.
This would essentially take the project to the final designs that could be handed to a manufacturer.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20510112

It's cool technology (literally).

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/yLD1TPsEi3E&hl=en_US&fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/yLD1TPsEi3E&hl=en_US&fs=1</a>

We'll get there eventually Dan....

farawayred · « **Reply #413 on:** November 28, 2012, 06:44:08 pm »

Wow, that's awesome!

Roopy · « **Reply #414 on:** November 29, 2012, 01:27:12 pm »

ASTRONOMERS say they have found possibly the biggest black hole ever observed, a leviathan with a mass 17 billion times that of the Sun.
The black hole is as unexpected as it is vast, for it accounts for nearly a seventh of its galaxy's mass, a finding that may rewrite theories of cosmic formation, they said.

Named NGC 1277, the monster lies 220 million light years away in a small galaxy just a tenth the size of our Milky Way.
The hole's maw is more than 11 times wider than Neptune's orbit around the Sun.

It accounts for a whopping 14 per cent of the galaxy's mass, compared with the 0.1 per cent that is the norm for galactic black holes.
"This is a really oddball galaxy," said Karl Gebhardt of the University of Texas at Austin in a press release.
"It's almost all black hole. This could be the first object in a new class of galaxy black hole systems."

NGC 1277 is already the second biggest black hole ever observed, and it is a strong contender for the top spot, for the current record holder, spotted in 2011, has still not been precisely calculated. It is somewhere between six and 37 billion solar masses.

Black holes are the most powerful known forces in the universe, creating a gravitational field that is so strong that even light cannot escape from it.

A black hole of stellar mass is formed when a very big star collapses in on itself at the end of its life.

It may then grow by gobbling up other stars and merging with other black holes, sometimes creating "supermassive" black holes which scientists say inhabit the centres of galaxies.

NGC 1277 challenges part of the galactic black hole theory because of its size relative to its galaxy.

In addition, it sits at the centre of a small disc-shaped galaxy, whereas a black hole of this size would have been expected in a far bigger blob-like, or "elliptical," galaxy.

Further work is needed to confirm whether NGC 1277 is a one-off or part of a hitherto-overlooked process of black hole creation.

"The galaxy hosting the new black hole appears to have formed more than eight billion years ago, and does not appear to have changed much since then," the Max Planck Institute said.

"Whatever created this giant black hole must have happened a long time ago."

El_Pistolero · « **Reply #415 on:** November 29, 2012, 01:34:26 pm »

Black holes fascinate me.

I await a page of out-of-context quotes from you immature bunch, also.

FiSh77 · « **Reply #416 on:** November 29, 2012, 04:20:46 pm »

Quote from: Paddock. on November 28, 2012, 05:58:34 pm

Jupiter is visible to the naked eye tonight. Closest 'star' to the moon, take a look

it's been visible for weeks

i work nights so when i come out of work in the morning you can see jupiter in the west and venus & saturn in the east

TepidT2O · « **Reply #417 on:** November 29, 2012, 10:18:08 pm »

Quote from: FiSh77 on November 29, 2012, 04:20:46 pm

it's been visible for weeks

i work nights so when i come out of work in the morning you can see jupiter in the west and venus & saturn in the east

It's amazing..

It's incredibly bright...even I can see which one it is and I know nothing of star spotting.

Look where the moon is and then go up and right a bit.....

You'll think it's too bright to be natural at first but it's really Jupiter.....

Amazing....

Red Beret · « **Reply #418 on:** November 29, 2012, 11:00:55 pm »

If you think it's amazing, try looking at it through a pair of binoculars or small telescope. You'll see at least a couple of bands of cloud and the four big moons.

Red Beret · « **Reply #419 on:** December 1, 2012, 05:19:47 pm »

Latest Curiosity panoramic, false colour I think.

Macphisto80 · « **Reply #420 on:** December 1, 2012, 08:37:03 pm »

Jupiter is hard to miss. It sits in between Orion a Taurus at this time of the year. It's not the most amazing thing you can see with your eye, though. If you follow Jupiter clockwise and slighty higher up in the sky, you could pick out another entire galaxy, although you'd need very dark conditions to do it.

It's Jimmy Corkhill · « **Reply #421 on:** December 1, 2012, 08:49:08 pm »

Quote from: Macphisto80 on December 1, 2012, 08:37:03 pm

Jupiter is hard to miss. It sits in between Orion a Taurus at this time of the year. It's not the most amazing thing you can see with your eye, though. If you follow Jupiter clockwise and slighty higher up in the sky, you could pick out another entire galaxy, although you'd need very dark conditions to do it.

The Pleiades is visible under even moderately light-polluted skies. Look at Jupiter, and then with averted vision look for a smudge. Looks fanastic through a telescope though. Blue stars all over the place.

xavidub · « **Reply #422 on:** December 1, 2012, 10:56:53 pm »

Quote from: Red Beret on December 1, 2012, 05:19:47 pm

Latest Curiosity panoramic, false colour I think.

Everton need to re-lay that pitch I think

Roopy · « **Reply #423 on:** December 4, 2012, 01:08:11 am »

THE Mars rover Curiosity has offered a tantalising taste of evidence that there was once life on the Red Planet.

NASA's Sample Analysis at Mars (SAM) instruments have been sending back information as it hunts for compounds such as methane, as well as hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen, that are the building blocks of life.

Researchers were excited to detect simple organic compounds in the soil scooped up from a crusted dune.

But they cautioned that the traces of carbon could have come from meteorites or even particles the instruments picked up before launch from Earth.

They hope to find more evidence of organic compounds as Curiosity makes its way across the barren, windblown sands of Rocknest towards Mount Sharp, searching for a good place to start digging deeper.

"It's not unexpected that this sand pile would not be rich in organics. It's been exposed to the harsh Martian environment," said Paul Mahaffy, NASA's principal investigator for Curiosity's sample analysis.

"It's going to be an exciting hunt to find early environments that might be protected from this harsh surface environment."

The instruments captured stunning pictures of the sand scooped up from the drift - which one researcher described as coarser than flour but finer than sugar.

Curiosity was also able to analyse crystals and other materials found in the sand. By heating the samples, they were able to detect a significant amount of water in the sand, along with some carbon dioxide, oxygen, and sulfur dioxide.

"The Curiosity rover is kind of like a CSI laboratory on wheels," Michael Meyer, the lead scientist for NASA's Mars Exploration Program, told a news conference.

"These results are an unprecedented look at the chemical diversity of the area that is representative of the rest of the planet."

Scientists do not expect Curiosity to find aliens or living creatures but they hope to use it to analyse soil and rocks for signs the building blocks of life are present and may have supported life in the past.

Red Beret · « **Reply #424 on:** December 4, 2012, 10:03:26 pm »

NASA are planning to send a new rover to Mars in 2020, based on the Curiosity design:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20603689

farawayred · « **Reply #425 on:** December 4, 2012, 11:14:00 pm »

Quote from: Red Beret on December 4, 2012, 10:03:26 pm

NASA are planning to send a new rover to Mars in 2020, based on the Curiosity design:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20603689

Just jot the JPL announcement. Excited!

Andy @ Allerton! · « **Reply #426 on:** December 5, 2012, 12:07:22 am »

Are there likely to be any plans to send humans past the orbit of Mars. Obviously not short term, we haven't even got to the inner planets yet. But long to very long term? Is there anything in NASA's statements ever to achieve any particular long term goal like this?

Red Beret · « **Reply #427 on:** December 5, 2012, 11:58:12 am »

Quote from: farawayred on December 4, 2012, 11:14:00 pm

Just jot the JPL announcement. Excited!

Where will that leave you on RTGs? I seem to recall you saying there was only a finite number of these left.

As for exploring the planets, there's no point going to the likes of Mercury until you can essentially field a fully equipped base that can land there. The journey's not worth the risk to the astronauts. The radiation environment alone would be hellish.

I'm more interested in getting back to Venus - another no go for manned missions but I'm really keen to see what a new robot lander could accomplish there.

thegoodfella · « **Reply #428 on:** December 5, 2012, 12:10:37 pm »

Voyager 1 reaches the "Magnetic Highway" Exit:

http://news.yahoo.com/voyager-1-probe-leaving-solar-system-reaches-magnetic-023825204.html

NASA's long-lived Voyager 1 spacecraft, which is heading out of the solar system, has reached a "magnetic highway" leading to interstellar space, scientists said on Monday.

The probe, launched 35 years ago to study the outer planets, is now about 11 billion miles (18 billion km) from Earth. At that distance, it takes radio signals traveling at the speed of light 17 hours to reach Earth. Light moves at 186,000 miles per second).

Voyager 1 will be the first manmade object to leave the solar system.

Scientists believe Voyager 1 is in an area where the magnetic field lines from the sun are connecting with magnetic field lines from interstellar space. The phenomenon is causing highly energetic particles from distant supernova explosions and other cosmic events to zoom inside the solar system, while less-energetic solar particles exit.

"It's like a highway, letting particles in and out," lead Voyager scientist Ed Stone told reporters at an American Geophysical Union conference in San Francisco.

Scientists don't know how long it will take for the probe to cross the so-called "magnetic highway," but they believe it is the last layer of a complex boundary between the region of space under the sun's influence and interstellar space.

"Our best guess is it's likely just a few months to a couple years away," Stone said.

Voyager 1 hit the outer sphere of the solar system, a region called the heliosphere, in 2004 and passed into the heliosheath, where the supersonic stream of particles from the sun - the so-called "solar wind" - slowed down and became turbulent.

That phase of the journey lasted for 5.5 years. Then the solar wind stopped moving and the magnetic field strengthened.

Based on an instrument that measures charged particles, Voyager entered the magnetic highway on July 28, 2012. The region was in flux for about a month and stabilized on August 25.

Each time Voyager re-entered the highway, the magnetic field strengthened, but its direction remained unchanged. Scientists believe the direction of the magnetic field lines will shift when the probe finally enters interstellar space.

Other clues that Voyager has reached interstellar space could be the detection of low-energy cosmic rays and a dramatic tapering of the number of solar particles, Stone said.

Voyager 1 and a sister spacecraft, Voyager 2, were launched 16 days apart in 1977 for the first flybys of Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune.

Voyager 2, traveling on a different path out of the solar system, has experienced similar, though more gradual changes in its environment than Voyager 1. Scientists do not believe Voyager 2, which is about 9 billion miles (14.5 billion km) from Earth, has reached the magnetic highway.
______________

Godspeed Voyager, you thing of beauty.

thegoodfella · « **Reply #429 on:** December 5, 2012, 12:28:38 pm »

Quote from: Lfsea on December 5, 2012, 12:17:53 pm

Humour a novice for a second, would you?

In the monitoring of these probes, do they still maintain the old equipment that was used when it was launched, or have they integrated the 'ancient' technology into far newer equipment.

I have this pseudo-romantic ideal that there is still an enormous shed of computers with valves in it, using a nuclear reactor's worth of power, tracking Voyager across space.

Somehow, I doubt it

I'm sure they can track the signals on the modern machines just as well as they could with room full of beeping machines.

Red Beret · « **Reply #430 on:** December 5, 2012, 12:39:47 pm »

Quote from: Lfsea on December 5, 2012, 12:17:53 pm

Humour a novice for a second, would you?

In the monitoring of these probes, do they still maintain the old equipment that was used when it was launched, or have they integrated the 'ancient' technology into far newer equipment.

I have this pseudo-romantic ideal that there is still an enormous shed of computers with valves in it, using a nuclear reactor's worth of power, tracking Voyager across space.

Somehow, I doubt it

When you consider the feeble signal of Voyager - an inconceivably small fraction of a single watt - it could be you only need modest equipment by modern standards to keep tabs. Little point wasting a more powerful computer, except perhaps to quickly assemble the final data processing. I'm just guessing though.

I love the Voyagers. They've had a truly epic journey. It might be contentious of me to say so, but I think they have surpassed even the moon landings as man's greatest achievement of exploration. Apollo wins hands down on a technological level but exploring four planets and becoming our ears at the edge of the solar system is simply incredible.

I still have the Horizon episode of Voyager 2's enoucnter with Neptune on tape, recorded it back in '89 and it said the probe would run out of power around 2015 but these days they reckon they can keep it going to 2020.

As a further aside, it's incredible to think that, although "interstellar space" is being measured at about 130 AU's, the actual influence of the Sun's gravity could extend out as far as 50,000 AU's. A tiny little world like Sedna, which takes 10,000 years to orbit the Sun, actually spends most of it's existence in the interstellar medium as it is currently defined.

J-Mc- · « **Reply #431 on:** December 5, 2012, 12:46:34 pm »

Quote from: Lfsea on December 5, 2012, 12:17:53 pm

Humour a novice for a second, would you?

In the monitoring of these probes, do they still maintain the old equipment that was used when it was launched, or have they integrated the 'ancient' technology into far newer equipment.

I have this pseudo-romantic ideal that there is still an enormous shed of computers with valves in it, using a nuclear reactor's worth of power, tracking Voyager across space.

Somehow, I doubt it

Neither, it's a monkey doing morse code.

thegoodfella · « **Reply #432 on:** December 5, 2012, 12:47:25 pm »

Quote from: Lfsea on December 5, 2012, 12:32:53 pm

Haha, thank you

I was kind of thinking along the lines that the technology in the Voyager probe might now be defunct after 40 years, and as such it may have been easier to maintain the old equipment rather than integrating it into the new hardware and softwares.

It is a good question though, unfortunately I don't really have a scientific answer for it because I've never really thought about it. What I do know is that a fair few instruments have been turned off because of power limitations, but the Voyager still receives commands and transmits data back to Earth.

thegoodfella · « **Reply #433 on:** December 5, 2012, 12:57:36 pm »

Quote from: Red Beret on December 5, 2012, 12:39:47 pm

I still have the Horizon episode of Voyager 2's enoucnter with Neptune on tape, recorded it back in '89 and it said the probe would run out of power around 2015 but these days they reckon they can keep it going to 2020.

I read that the Voyager might make it till 2025, but what has me in awe is the fact that it would take 40,000 years for Voyager to get close to a nearby star. Just thinking about the distance and time gives me goosebumps.

farawayred · « **Reply #434 on:** December 6, 2012, 04:18:13 pm »

Quote from: Red Beret on December 5, 2012, 11:58:12 am

Where will that leave you on RTGs? I seem to recall you saying there was only a finite number of these left.

As for exploring the planets, there's no point going to the likes of Mercury until you can essentially field a fully equipped base that can land there. The journey's not worth the risk to the astronauts. The radiation environment alone would be hellish.

I'm more interested in getting back to Venus - another no go for manned missions but I'm really keen to see what a new robot lander could accomplish there.

Funny, that was my first question too about the RTGs... As far as I know, we have material for one mission left, and that was earmarked for Europa. Has that changed? No one seems to know. It seems this announcement caught everyone by surprise. I have a sneaky suspicion that it was made as a PR exercise to cover up for Goddard's mishap with the "major groundbreaking announcement" on Mars...

Regarding Venus, two years ago I was a part of a mission study at JPL for a project called SAGE (Surface and Atmospheric Geochemical Explorer). I was a cool thing in the $1bn range with a lot of new high-T technologies, sample analysis suite, etc. It would have been possible to ablate rocks and look below the weathered surface. I was quite disappointed it didn't get selected, because it had the best reviews of all Discovery ($1bn budget) proposals... It made it to the top 3 Discovery finalists, but NASA chose a Goddard lunar project for half the money (that will end up costing twice as much).

The problem with Venus is that the missions don't last long. If you look at all successful Russian missions, they lasted almost exactly one hour (give or take a few minutes), except for one, which recorder two hours of data. SAGE was planned for 3 hours as a minimum mission requirement. The Russians have a proposal for days-long mission using refrigeration techniques. Just the thought of that is cool!

Red Beret · « **Reply #435 on:** December 7, 2012, 09:37:45 am »

Yeah, Venus is a tough nut to crack. Always surprised me how the Russians seemed to do a good job at Venus and yet consistently blow it with Mars - arguably a much easier target!

I think the science and technology exists now that would enable a probe to survive for a respectable time period as well as delivering solid science. Venus' surface pressure is like being underwater on Earth, so the pressure vessel construction shouldn't be a problem. It's the heat that's the killer.

The SAGE concept sounds interesting, but if that lunar project ended up costing twice the estimate I imagine SAGE would have run over budget as well!

MichaelA · « **Reply #436 on:** December 7, 2012, 10:14:58 am »

http://www.howmanypeopleareinspacerightnow.com/

farawayred · « **Reply #437 on:** December 7, 2012, 09:50:36 pm »

Quote from: Red Beret on December 7, 2012, 09:37:45 am

Yeah, Venus is a tough nut to crack. Always surprised me how the Russians seemed to do a good job at Venus and yet consistently blow it with Mars - arguably a much easier target!

I think the science and technology exists now that would enable a probe to survive for a respectable time period as well as delivering solid science. Venus' surface pressure is like being underwater on Earth, so the pressure vessel construction shouldn't be a problem. It's the heat that's the killer.

The SAGE concept sounds interesting, but if that lunar project ended up costing twice the estimate I imagine SAGE would have run over budget as well!

The Russians Venera project was very separate from their Mars program. It was run by different people without much interaction because it was a competition between them of sorts. That's one key factor. The other was the consistency of the design. The first probe that actually made it to Venus (Venera 3 or 4, I don't recall) was built for 125C heat tolerance. It burned quickly, but they learned that it's quite hotter even in the atmosphere. The next couple of probes got good atmospheric data and projected 300-350C on the surface, so they build the lander with 350C tolerance. That one (Venera 7) survived long enough to return accurate measurements. And from that point on, the Russian design of the vessel never changed. They just put different suites of instruments. That, IMHO, is the second major factor for their success.

In contrast, we change our robot design every damn time we have a new mission. Now the 2020 is supposed to be a twin of this rover, but I'm willing to bet you that we will tweak the design to the extent that a new rover species is born...

I just browsed back (I was out on vacation) and saw your MER rover questions. One of the rovers is dead, but the other is still roving around. I don't know of they descended it in the crater or is it still circling around, but it's amazing that it's still moving after 9 years.

Trada · « **Reply #438 on:** December 8, 2012, 09:12:30 am »

I guess this will be interesting if they find life and may mean where there may be life may in space.

Hunt for life under Antarctic ice heats up

UK and US teams to drill into ancient subglacial lakes.

Nestled in a steep fjord beneath three kilometres of Antarctic ice, the lost world of Lake Ellsworth has haunted Martin Siegert’s dreams ever since he got involved in subglacial research a dozen years ago. Finally, the time has come for him to explore its mysterious waters.

Next week, Siegert, a glaciologist at the University of Bristol, UK, packs his bags for the long journey to the opposite end of the world. Once he has reached the Rothera Research Station of the British Antarctic Survey (BAS) on an island off the Antarctic Peninsula, he and his science crew will fly about 1,000 kilometres into western Antarctica. On 5 December, the real work begins: drilling straight down through the ice to the pristine lake beneath. In its shadowy waters they hope to find forms of life that have not seen the light of day in millions of years (see ‘Trapped under ice’). And in the lake bed sediments, the team will search for records of the poorly understood history of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet, potentially revealing how the mighty glacier has waxed and waned over time.

http://www.nature.com/news/hunt-for-life-under-antarctic-ice-heats-up-1.11856

http://www.ellsworth.org.uk/index.html

Red Beret · « **Reply #439 on:** December 8, 2012, 05:47:33 pm »

It would appear that Opportunity has stolen some of Curiosity's thunder.

Quote

Nasa's Opportunity rover appears to have reached another milestone in its amazing nine-year mission on Mars.

Scientists report the robot has been trundling over what they believe to be clay-bearing rocks on the edge of a wide bowl known as Endeavour Crater.

Clays are water-altered minerals, but very different to the ones seen by the rover so far on its travels.

Those previous minerals were in contact with acidic water; clays are formed in the presence of neutral water.

"What drives us to investigate the problem of water on Mars is the fact that water is a necessary condition for life; but there's water and there's water," said Prof Steve Squyres, Opportunity's principal investigator from Cornell University in Ithaca, New York.

"We've been seeing sulphate minerals from day one with this rover. These sulphates form under very acid conditions. And even though water was present, if it's that acid it would be very challenging as a place for life to take hold.

"However, if it's not acid, if it's the kind of water you can drink, it's the kind of water that's going to be more suitable for life; and that's what the clays point to," he told BBC News.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20649462

As I recall, one of the reasons Gale Crater was chosen as Curiosity's landing site was because of the detection of clay mineral deposits.