Author Topic: The barbarity that is Syria  (Read 385464 times)

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #440 on: August 31, 2013, 05:03:25 pm »
So, if the UN have everything that they needed, why have they not given a definitive response as to who was responsible? It would certainly solve a lot of problems.

That was not their mandate. Their investigation is about determining whether chemical weapons were used, not to determine who fired them. Are you not concentrating or something?
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Offline The Lash

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #441 on: August 31, 2013, 05:11:36 pm »
That was not their mandate. Their investigation is about determining whether chemical weapons were used, not to determine who fired them. Are you not concentrating or something?

Determining whether they were used is not the real issue is it. The Syrian government allowed the inspectors into the country to assess the weapons used and their origins.

it is a non event for the UN to determine whether weapons were used as neither side is denying this. The issue is who used the weapons, as this will ultimately determine the number of innocent lives lost in the near future
« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 05:14:28 pm by The Lash »
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #442 on: August 31, 2013, 05:45:59 pm »
Doesn't matter either way at all. There's nothing any country can do to stop this shit without invading Syria. No matter what this will be a massacre. Unless the u.s. is willing to take refuges to Wyoming or something nothing will really help anything.
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Offline The Lash

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #443 on: August 31, 2013, 05:54:08 pm »
Doesn't matter either way at all. There's nothing any country can do to stop this shit without invading Syria. No matter what this will be a massacre. Unless the u.s. is willing to take refuges to Wyoming or something nothing will really help anything.

What I do find surprising, well not really, I am being sarcastic, is that the US picks and chooses the conflicts to get involved in and totally ignores other instances of state organised blatant abuse of human life and nobody feels that this is in any way suspicious.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #444 on: August 31, 2013, 06:24:56 pm »
Doesn't matter either way at all. There's nothing any country can do to stop this shit without invading Syria. No matter what this will be a massacre. Unless the u.s. is willing to take refuges to Wyoming or something nothing will really help anything.

There is something practical the west can do to help, though, which is to hugely increase funding to the UNHCR, to UNICEF, to Oxfam, to the Red Cross and Red Crescent Organisation, to MSF, and to all the other brave and hard working men and women picking up the pieces of this mess in Turkey, Iraq, Lebanon and Jordan.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #445 on: August 31, 2013, 07:00:25 pm »
Obama on now , going to speak to congress to approve military force against Syria.

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #446 on: August 31, 2013, 07:03:50 pm »
So Mr Obama has said America will attack Syria. With the no boots on the ground statement I take it they will fire missiles at selected areas. If that Assad was willing to gas over a thousand of his own people I'm guessing he's not just going to sit around and ignore these attacks, But what options does he have? Do they have the Arsenal to retaliate?

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #447 on: August 31, 2013, 07:08:48 pm »
Just a quick reminder,keep it civil between each other, even if you do not agree with what is posted.

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #448 on: August 31, 2013, 07:09:28 pm »
What I do find surprising, well not really, I am being sarcastic, is that the US picks and chooses the conflicts to get involved in and totally ignores other instances of state organised blatant abuse of human life and nobody feels that this is in any way suspicious.

The reason would be that congress is filled with representatives that are bought and paid for by special interest groups and corporations.  The president can't start something without their approval and that has to coincide with the interest of these groups.  It is a pretty shit setup as some of these wars are approved for all the wrong reasons.

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #449 on: August 31, 2013, 07:36:38 pm »
So Mr Obama has said America will attack Syria. With the no boots on the ground statement I take it they will fire missiles at selected areas. If that Assad was willing to gas over a thousand of his own people I'm guessing he's not just going to sit around and ignore these attacks, But what options does he have? Do they have the Arsenal to retaliate?

Pretty sure they are capable of strikes on Israel, Saudi, Turkey and other US allies using Soviet era hardware (Scud), in much the same way as Saddam did in the first Gulf War.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #450 on: August 31, 2013, 08:21:14 pm »
Determining whether they were used is not the real issue is it. The Syrian government allowed the inspectors into the country to assess the weapons used and their origins.

it is a non event for the UN to determine whether weapons were used as neither side is denying this. The issue is who used the weapons, as this will ultimately determine the number of innocent lives lost in the near future

Eventually.

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #451 on: August 31, 2013, 10:55:27 pm »
Determining whether they were used is not the real issue is it.The Syrian government allowed the inspectors into the country to assess the weapons used and their origins.

it is a non event for the UN to determine whether weapons were used as neither side is denying this. The issue is who used the weapons, as this will ultimately determine the number of innocent lives lost in the near future

If the regime have nothing to hide why did it take months of negotiations over the inspectors madate between the Syrians, Russians and the Chinese before they were allowed to enter Syria to investigate all the previous chemical attacks?

http://www.mintpressnews.com/witnesses-of-gas-attack-say-saudis-supplied-rebels-with-chemical-weapons/168135/

Hahahahahaha. A Saudi conspiracy theory from a Hindustani news agency is not what I call "growing evidence" of the rebels possessing chemical weapons. All known uses of chemical weaponry in Syria have come from government held territory, and have been deployed using weaponry only available to the regime.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 10:57:20 pm by Sinos »
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Offline The Lash

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #452 on: August 31, 2013, 11:47:05 pm »
If the regime have nothing to hide why did it take months of negotiations over the inspectors madate between the Syrians, Russians and the Chinese before they were allowed to enter Syria to investigate all the previous chemical attacks?

Hahahahahaha. A Saudi conspiracy theory from a Hindustani news agency is not what I call "growing evidence" of the rebels possessing chemical weapons. All known uses of chemical weaponry in Syria have come from government held territory, and have been deployed using weaponry only available to the regime.

In the case of previous chemical attacks in Syria. It is important to remember that Assad has been accused of using poison gas against civilians before. But on that occasion, Carla del Ponte, a U.N. commissioner on Syria, concluded that the rebels, not Assad, were probably responsible.

Consider this: the only beneficiaries from the atrocity were the rebels, previously losing the war, who now have America ready to intervene on their side. While there seems to be little doubt that chemical weapons were used, there is doubt about who deployed them.

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #453 on: August 31, 2013, 11:56:15 pm »
This gave me chuckle - in the torygraph too. "allegedly"  ;)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/oilandgas/10266957/Saudis-offer-Russia-secret-oil-deal-if-it-drops-Syria.html

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Prince Bandar pledged to safeguard Russia’s naval base in Syria if the Assad regime is toppled, but he also hinted at Chechen terrorist attacks on Russia’s Winter Olympics in Sochi if there is no accord. “I can give you a guarantee to protect the Winter Olympics next year. The Chechen groups that threaten the security of the games are controlled by us,”he allegedly said.
 
Prince Bandar went on to say that Chechens operating in Syria were a pressure tool that could be switched on an off. “These groups do not scare us. We use them in the face of the Syrian regime but they will have no role in Syria’s political future.”
 

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #454 on: September 1, 2013, 12:09:39 am »
From Adam Curtis' blog

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/2011/06/the_baby_and_the_baath_water.html

Quote
The chief diplomat in Damascus was called James Keeley. The solution he said was to find a way of "quarantining" the Syrians from the corrupting forces that had wrecked the election so they would become more self-confident. More "naturally democratic". Here is a picture of James Keeley
 
And the way to create this "quarantine" was by engineering a military coup. According to Copeland, Keeley believed that America should get rid of the present elected leaders, bring in a short period of dictatorship which would protect the Syrian people and thus allow them to develop self-confidence and stronger personalities, and within a few years a real independent democracy would emerge.
 
And that is what the Americans did. In 1949 a "Political Action Team" was set up that went and made friends with the head of the Syrian army, Husni al-Za'im. Copeland was part of the team and he is completely open about what they did.
 
"The political action team suggested to Za'im the idea of a coup d'etat, advised him how to go about it, guided him through the intricate preparations in laying the groundwork for it...Za'im was 'the American boy'. "

 
And Za'im promised the Americans he would throw all the corrupt politicians in jail, reform the country, recognise the new state of Israel, and then bring in proper democracy. All the Americans were convinced that it was a brilliant plan - except for one man, a young political officer called Deane Hinton. Copeland describes a moment when they were out in Damascus planning the coup when Hinton turned to the rest of the group and said:
 
"I want to go on record as saying that this is the stupidest, most irresponsible action a diplomatic mission like ours could get itself involved in, and that we've started a series of these things that will never end."
 
Deane was promptly kicked out of the group and ostracised. The coup happened in March 1949. It was the first post-war military coup in the Middle East. It was a great success and the American celebrated "opening the door to Peace and Progress"
 
But then Za'im immediately went back on all his promises and turned into a violent tyrant. He got so bad that five months later a group of his subordinates surrounded his house and shot him to bits. And then they mounted another violent coup, this time with no promises. As Copeland noted - Hinton had been right. The Americans had started something - they had "opened the door to the Dark Ages" in Syria.
 
Here is Copeland interviewed in 1969. He is reflecting ruefully on the disaster they had created in Syria. His is the voice of a generation of Americans who had tried to intervene to bring democracy to the Middle East - not just in Syria but later in Iran and in Nasser's Egypt. The "Game" he refers to is a management game-playing exercise the CIA did in the 1950s when planning the interventions. It's aim was to predict how all the "players" in the country would behave.

As a result Syria was torn apart by miltary coups throughout the early 1950s. Then in 1954 the parliamentary system was restored. The politicians - and most of the Syrian people - were now terrified of America, not just because of the interventions and the coup, but also because of their support for Israel. In response the new government turned to the Soviet Union for economic aid and friendship.

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #455 on: September 2, 2013, 06:32:55 am »
Pressure on Cameron for new vote on Syria strikes
David Cameron is under increasing pressure to return to Parliament for another vote on British military action against Syria after the Americans postponed missile strikes for at least a week.



By Robert Winnett and Peter Dominiczak

10:00PM BST 01 Sep 2013

Lord Howard, a former Conservative leader, Sir Malcolm Rifkind, a former Foreign Secretary, and Lord Ashdown, a former Liberal Democrat leader, led calls to vote again on Sunday.

Sir Malcolm, the chairman of the intelligence and security committee, said the situation has “moved on dramatically now” and that the evidence is “becoming more compelling every day”.

In his Daily Telegraph column on Monday, Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, the London mayor, also suggests another motion could be put “inviting British participation”. Mr Johnson, who has been highly sceptical of intervening in Syria, believes that Parliament has helped the international community by allowing a delay in the action for further evidence to be collected.

Signs of Labour disagreements over Ed Miliband’s response to the Syrian crisis were also beginning to emerge on Sunday.

Jim Murphy, the shadow defence secretary, became the first senior Labour figure to admit that the case against the Assad regime over last month’s chemical weapons attack was not in doubt.



Ben Bradshaw, a former Labour Cabinet minister, suggested he would now support a second Parliamentary vote being called.

George Gideon Oliver Osborne, son of Sir Peter Osborne, 17th Baronet of Ballentaylor and Ballylemon and Felicity Alexandra Loxton-Peacock, educated at St. Paul's and Magdalen College, Oxford and William Hague, Mr Cameron’s two most senior Cabinet colleagues, on Sunday appeared to rule out a second vote on Syrian action.

However, Mr Hague, the Foreign Secretary, laid out a series of conditions which would have to be met before action could be reconsidered – primarily involving Mr Miliband offering to cooperate. He also warned that if Bashar al-Assad is not confronted now it would lead ultimately to a “confrontation [which] will only be bigger and more painful.”

Since last Thursday, when MPs rejected government backing for potential military action against Syria by just 13 votes, the US administration has released detailed intelligence on Assad’s alleged involvement in a chemical weapons attack on a suburb of Damascus. A report from UN weapons inspectors is also imminent and on Sunday a new intelligence report from France suggested that Assad had amassed 1,000 tons of chemical weapons.

On Sunday, John Kerry, the US Secretary of State, said his government had now concluded that sarin gas was used in the attack, which killed 1,429 people including 426 children. The Americans set out detailed intelligence on the attack, including information about where the missiles had been fired from, telephone intercepts and other “evidence”. This compares with an overall conclusion from British intelligence last week that the Syrian leader was “highly likely” to have been responsible.

Assad said he would “confront any external aggression”.

The US government had been expected to launch cruise missile strikes over the weekend but President Obama said on Saturday that he would now be seeking the support of the US Congress, in a vote which will not happen before next week.

The revised US timetable and the emerging intelligence has led to calls from some of Britain’s most senior politicians for Parliament to be given another vote.

Many observers believe that Mr Cameron unnecessarily rushed last week’s vote without properly detailing the case for action. Dozens of MPs were away on holiday and unable to vote. A Labour “road map” plan for action was also defeated.

On Sunday, Lord Howard said: “I think Parliament, or at least the Opposition in Parliament, last week got itself into something of a muddle.” He said he hoped the US President’s speech “will give Parliament an opportunity to think again and to come to a different conclusion”. Sir Malcolm Rifkind also backed such a prospect. “A lot of MPs, including Mr Miliband and his colleagues who voted against last Thursday, did so because they said it was premature,” he said.

“And he and our Prime Minister ought to get together and say, if we can now agree the evidence is compelling then Parliament ought to have the opportunity to debate the matter again.”

Lord Ashdown told the BBC that parliament could “reconsider its position”.

Mr Osborne said he did not believe that more evidence or the conclusion of the UN work in Syria would win over MPs. “Parliament has spoken,” he told the BBC’s Andrew Marr programme. Mr Hague also said he could not envisage the circumstances of Parliament overturning its objections.

But he added: “I think anybody looking at this objectively would see that in order for Parliament in any circumstances to come to a different conclusion then people would have to be more persuaded by the evidence …

“And the Labour leadership would have to play a less partisan and less opportunistic role and be prepared to take 'yes’ for an answer in terms of the motion that we present to the House of Commons.”

Colonel Bob Stewart, a Conservative MP and former UN Commander in Bosnia, said on Sunday night: “I don’t see how we [Parliament] can’t discuss it again.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/10279620/Pressure-on-Cameron-for-new-vote-on-Syria-strikes.html
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Offline Gnurglan

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #456 on: September 2, 2013, 10:32:19 pm »
Very difficult situation now. Say you attack Syria. Who gains something? The rebels. And among them you get all this loons from Al Qaida.

A friend of mine has relatives there. He says they don't like the regime, but they fear the alternative. In particular as they belong to a minority.

The overall strategy, from years ago, was fairly simple. First Afghanistan, then Iraq. Why? Look at a map. You squeeze Pakistan, Iran and Syria. Enemies. Next is, of course, Syria. Because it's closest to Israel, an ally. If it works, you get a great buffer zone for them. But will it work?

All the big players against the US will of course overload these countries with Al Qaida loons. Better to have the battlefields there, than at home. Which is what we have seen. So attack Syria and you'll have even more of them fly to Syria to slaughter anyone. The only sense with such a strategy (from a US perspective) is if you want to have an ultra islamic enemy. If you want to make friends, a different strategy is needed. And then an attack is no longer a very good option.

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #457 on: September 3, 2013, 01:17:03 am »
Pressure on Cameron for new vote on Syria strikes
David Cameron is under increasing pressure to return to Parliament for another vote on British military action against Syria after the Americans postponed missile strikes for at least a week.



By Robert Winnett and Peter Dominiczak

10:00PM BST 01 Sep 2013

Lord Howard, a former Conservative leader, Sir Malcolm Rifkind, a former Foreign Secretary, and Lord Ashdown, a former Liberal Democrat leader, led calls to vote again on Sunday.

Sir Malcolm, the chairman of the intelligence and security committee, said the situation has “moved on dramatically now” and that the evidence is “becoming more compelling every day”.

In his Daily Telegraph column on Monday, Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, the London mayor, also suggests another motion could be put “inviting British participation”. Mr Johnson, who has been highly sceptical of intervening in Syria, believes that Parliament has helped the international community by allowing a delay in the action for further evidence to be collected.

Signs of Labour disagreements over Ed Miliband’s response to the Syrian crisis were also beginning to emerge on Sunday.

Jim Murphy, the shadow defence secretary, became the first senior Labour figure to admit that the case against the Assad regime over last month’s chemical weapons attack was not in doubt.



Ben Bradshaw, a former Labour Cabinet minister, suggested he would now support a second Parliamentary vote being called.

George Gideon Oliver Osborne, son of Sir Peter Osborne, 17th Baronet of Ballentaylor and Ballylemon and Felicity Alexandra Loxton-Peacock, educated at St. Paul's and Magdalen College, Oxford and William Hague, Mr Cameron’s two most senior Cabinet colleagues, on Sunday appeared to rule out a second vote on Syrian action.

However, Mr Hague, the Foreign Secretary, laid out a series of conditions which would have to be met before action could be reconsidered – primarily involving Mr Miliband offering to cooperate. He also warned that if Bashar al-Assad is not confronted now it would lead ultimately to a “confrontation [which] will only be bigger and more painful.”

Since last Thursday, when MPs rejected government backing for potential military action against Syria by just 13 votes, the US administration has released detailed intelligence on Assad’s alleged involvement in a chemical weapons attack on a suburb of Damascus. A report from UN weapons inspectors is also imminent and on Sunday a new intelligence report from France suggested that Assad had amassed 1,000 tons of chemical weapons.

On Sunday, John Kerry, the US Secretary of State, said his government had now concluded that sarin gas was used in the attack, which killed 1,429 people including 426 children. The Americans set out detailed intelligence on the attack, including information about where the missiles had been fired from, telephone intercepts and other “evidence”. This compares with an overall conclusion from British intelligence last week that the Syrian leader was “highly likely” to have been responsible.

Assad said he would “confront any external aggression”.

The US government had been expected to launch cruise missile strikes over the weekend but President Obama said on Saturday that he would now be seeking the support of the US Congress, in a vote which will not happen before next week.

The revised US timetable and the emerging intelligence has led to calls from some of Britain’s most senior politicians for Parliament to be given another vote.

Many observers believe that Mr Cameron unnecessarily rushed last week’s vote without properly detailing the case for action. Dozens of MPs were away on holiday and unable to vote. A Labour “road map” plan for action was also defeated.

On Sunday, Lord Howard said: “I think Parliament, or at least the Opposition in Parliament, last week got itself into something of a muddle.” He said he hoped the US President’s speech “will give Parliament an opportunity to think again and to come to a different conclusion”. Sir Malcolm Rifkind also backed such a prospect. “A lot of MPs, including Mr Miliband and his colleagues who voted against last Thursday, did so because they said it was premature,” he said.

“And he and our Prime Minister ought to get together and say, if we can now agree the evidence is compelling then Parliament ought to have the opportunity to debate the matter again.”

Lord Ashdown told the BBC that parliament could “reconsider its position”.

Mr Osborne said he did not believe that more evidence or the conclusion of the UN work in Syria would win over MPs. “Parliament has spoken,” he told the BBC’s Andrew Marr programme. Mr Hague also said he could not envisage the circumstances of Parliament overturning its objections.

But he added: “I think anybody looking at this objectively would see that in order for Parliament in any circumstances to come to a different conclusion then people would have to be more persuaded by the evidence …

“And the Labour leadership would have to play a less partisan and less opportunistic role and be prepared to take 'yes’ for an answer in terms of the motion that we present to the House of Commons.”

Colonel Bob Stewart, a Conservative MP and former UN Commander in Bosnia, said on Sunday night: “I don’t see how we [Parliament] can’t discuss it again.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/10279620/Pressure-on-Cameron-for-new-vote-on-Syria-strikes.html

Let's just have (like government referendums) as many votes until the lobbyists get what they want.

If Cameron would have won, this would never have been debated again.
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Offline KUNGFUDANCER

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #458 on: September 3, 2013, 01:30:34 am »

Hahahahahaha. A Saudi conspiracy theory from a Hindustani news agency is not what I call "growing evidence" of the rebels possessing chemical weapons. All known uses of chemical weaponry in Syria have come from government held territory, and have been deployed using weaponry only available to the regime.
UN had investigated reports of chemical use before and they found evidence of rebels using them and not Assad. Rebels are plenty capable of making their own rockets and they have been using home made rockets since the beginning. Also rebels have received guided missiles from the Saudis a month ago.
« Last Edit: September 3, 2013, 03:32:02 am by KUNGFUDANCER »

Offline Zeb

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #459 on: September 3, 2013, 06:30:37 am »
In the case of previous chemical attacks in Syria. It is important to remember that Assad has been accused of using poison gas against civilians before. But on that occasion, Carla del Ponte, a U.N. commissioner on Syria, concluded that the rebels, not Assad, were probably responsible.

US intelligence came to a different conclusion about those reports. Link to White House statement alleging use of chemical weapons by Assad's forces but claiming the rebels did not then have access to them. Claim and counter-claim. But the balance of probabilities is that Assad's forces are the ones still in control of the chemical weapons. Whether they're under Assad's control, that's a murky one. There's certainly been no credible reports of the rebels having chemical weapons - that second hand story passed to an AP journalist is ropey, to say the least, without independent verification. There's no crazy conspiracy here, just a horrendous clusterfuck of a war being stoked by all kinds of rather unpleasant people.

« Last Edit: September 3, 2013, 06:32:54 am by Zeb »
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #460 on: September 3, 2013, 10:41:53 am »
Just reading about the banning of 4 TV stations including Al-Jazeera and one run by the Muslim Brotherhood by Egypt's ruling military. Expect protest repercussions are likely to follow.

It's as though the entire middle east region is teetering on the brink of catastrophy.From the straits of Gibraltar through to Turkey's southern borders the whole strategically critical area is struggling to achieve stability.
Bloody hell, does the world really need a US strike against Assad under such circumstances?
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Offline Malaysian Kopite

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #461 on: September 3, 2013, 11:39:45 am »
Syria: Russia detects 2 ballistic "objects" launched towards "Eastern Med"

Quote
Russian radar detected two ballistic "objects" that were fired towards the eastern Mediterranean from the central part of the sea on Tuesday, state-run news agency RIA quoted the Defence Ministry as saying.

The Defence Ministry declined immediate comment to Reuters. A ministry official had earlier criticised the United States for deploying warships in the Mediterranean close to Syria.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/middle-east-live/2013/sep/03/syria-crisis-2-million-refugees-live
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Offline alfonso

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #462 on: September 3, 2013, 06:24:03 pm »
It is looking like Syria will be the 25th country to get bombed by the US since WW2.

The US and their poodles are as always selective with who they attack and support.

CIA Files Prove America Helped Saddam as He Gassed Iran
The U.S. knew Hussein was launching some of the worst chemical attacks in history -- and still gave him a hand.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/08/25/secret_cia_files_prove_america_helped_saddam_as_he_gassed_iran
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #463 on: September 3, 2013, 06:41:20 pm »

The US and their poodles are as always selective with who they attack and support.

CIA Files Prove America Helped Saddam as He Gassed Iran
The U.S. knew Hussein was launching some of the worst chemical attacks in history -- and still gave him a hand.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/08/25/secret_cia_files_prove_america_helped_saddam_as_he_gassed_iran

Shocking.

Thank god the United States has moved on since those days - the days of Kissinger, McNamara, Brzezinski, Bundy and all the other Cold War cynics.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #464 on: September 3, 2013, 09:31:40 pm »
Shocking.

Thank god the United States has moved on since those days - the days of Kissinger, McNamara, Brzezinski, Bundy and all the other Cold War cynics.

And the fools that led the US into Iraq - Pearle, Wolfowitz, Kristol, Cheney, Rumsfeld and all the other neocon PNAC whoppers.


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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #465 on: September 4, 2013, 04:55:45 am »
Random question here, could someone enlighten me.

Why is it France is so keen on intervention in Syria, in contrast to their previous stance concerning Iraq?

Is it because Syria has closer relations to France? Or is it because of a change in French government from back then?
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #466 on: September 4, 2013, 09:01:16 am »
Random question here, could someone enlighten me.

Why is it France is so keen on intervention in Syria, in contrast to their previous stance concerning Iraq?

Is it because Syria has closer relations to France? Or is it because of a change in French government from back then?

Probably both these things count. Plus the example of Libya where the initiative was taken by France and Gaddafi was prevented from laying siege to Benghazi. Plus this time there is clear evidence of WMD. The whole world can see that they've been used by the Assad regime against innocent civilians.
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Offline Red_Mist

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #467 on: September 4, 2013, 10:03:11 am »
It's one thing to be cautious, it's another thing to look at this situation solely through the lens of Iraq. Just seen some idiot suggesting the US wants to get involved because of the oil in Syria when there's none there.
It's more about having incontrovertible proof. I didn't think that that had been shown yet. Yes it's clear they have been used against innocent civilians. Not sure that anyone except those who ordered and carried out the attack can be certain who is responsible. Logic says it was the Assad regime, is that enough?

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #468 on: September 4, 2013, 10:11:37 am »
It's more about having incontrovertible proof. I didn't think that that had been shown yet. Yes it's clear they have been used against innocent civilians. Not sure that anyone except those who ordered and carried out the attack can be certain who is responsible. Logic says it was the Assad regime, is that enough?

That's the question isn't it? The kind of proof that some people want may not be available for years, perhaps only after the Assad regime has fallen and the state archives are opened. You can set the bar so high with demands for 'incontrovertible proof' that nothing ever gets done. In the midst of a major crime and a humanitarian crisis that is clearly a problem. Sure, logic, uncorroborated claims and circumstantial evidence are all you've got. These things aren't negligible though.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #469 on: September 4, 2013, 10:37:16 am »
Christian Aid and The Red Cross have joined those warning of the unintended consequences of intervention.

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The announcement came shortly before the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) issued a warning to all sides that further escalation would worsen the refugee crisis and trigger more displacement of people.

Janet Symes of Christian Aid said: “We believe that a political solution is the only way to achieve lasting peace for the Syrian people. If an air strike is announced, the number of people fleeing Syria will increase dramatically, with catastrophic effects on the already desperate humanitarian situation in neighbouring countries.

“An escalation in military engagement within Syria will worsen an already precarious humanitarian situation.”

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Offline HarryLabrador

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #470 on: September 4, 2013, 11:42:41 am »
For all those in favour of air strikes by the USA and possibly France, what happens after that? Will Syria retaliate likewise; and what about Iran and Russia? We must not underestimate the military arms of Syria or God forbid, Iran. We still continue to watch the daily disasters in Iraq. Have we learnt nothing? What have we achieved other than total destruction and the expansion of arms deals worldwide....oh, I forgot the small issue of oil. Obama, whom I respected and hoped for a second term, is behaving just like any another puppet leader of the hegemony. A good and peaceful leader would seek political mediators to help solve this crisis. In a blink we could be heading for a very nasty war, worse than Iraq and Afghanistan. I am scared!
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Offline alfonso

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #471 on: September 4, 2013, 01:19:28 pm »
My worry is that Assad, if attacked tries and gets Israel involved. Once they start any operations, your Al Qaeda's won't be fighting any civil war, they will be fighting alongside Assad.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #472 on: September 4, 2013, 01:27:45 pm »
Why would they do that?

If Assad is defeated then Al Qaeda gain.

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #473 on: September 4, 2013, 01:35:46 pm »
My worry is that Assad, if attacked tries and gets Israel involved. Once they start any operations, your Al Qaeda's won't be fighting any civil war, they will be fighting alongside Assad.

Come on. You get a wee twitch in the trousers thinking about that possibility, don't you?  ;)
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #474 on: September 4, 2013, 01:36:05 pm »
Yeah, but AQ would relish a fight with their soon to be neighbours.
During WW2 the communists in China stopped their fighting against the Nationalists to fight the Japanese. If Israel attack Syria, then my worry is the civil war would be put on hold.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #475 on: September 4, 2013, 01:37:16 pm »
I don't think this image of Kerry with Assad at dinner will do the rounds like Rumsfeld's shaking Saddam's hands did.

Come on. You get a wee twitch in the trousers thinking about that possibility, don't you?  ;)

No.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #476 on: September 4, 2013, 01:46:08 pm »
Well I don't think you'll get your all-out Arab war on Israel.

It's true. Assad may try to draw Israel into any conflict. If you remember back to the beginning of the Syrian uprising against the Fascists in Damascus you'll recall that pro-Assad factions started cutting the wire and trying to cross over into Israel. All part of the classic diversionary tactic used by autocratic Arab regimes in trouble. Bring Zionists into the conversation!

It's true that Assad's fellow Baathist and fellow sadist Saddam Hussein tried the same thing after he'd invaded and annexed the independent state of Kuwait. When the Coalition got cracking Saddam started launching Scud missiles into Tel Aviv.

But it didn't work. Israel was persuaded not to retaliate. A difficult thing to do when a foreign regime starts bombing you without any provocation, any reason, or any warning. But somehow they did it. I'd expect the same to happen again if Assad starts firing his weapons at Israel.  Israel will almost certainly not respond. 
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #477 on: September 4, 2013, 11:02:27 pm »
I'm listening to Kerry blather on about how attacking Syria is in some way connected with America's security. This is sounding familiar.

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #478 on: September 4, 2013, 11:17:44 pm »
I'm listening to Kerry blather on about how attacking Syria is in some way connected with America's security. This is sounding familiar.

I wonder if they will get the OK from UN first, or if they run a solo war light with a few missiles. And I wonder if they will need ground forces and naturally what the effects will be if they attack. The trouble is, they can't sit there and do nothing if/when chemical weapons have been used. Whatever they do will create problems. It's a win-win for the Al Qaeda loons.

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Offline HarryLabrador

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #479 on: September 4, 2013, 11:33:33 pm »
Syria intervention plan fueled by oil interests, not chemical weapon concern

Massacres of civilians are being exploited for narrow geopolitical competition to control Mideast oil, gas pipelines

On 21 August, hundreds - perhaps over a thousand - people were killed in a chemical weapon attack in Ghouta, Damascus, prompting the US, UK, Israel and France to raise the spectre of military strikes against Bashir al Assad's forces.
The latest episode is merely one more horrific event in a conflict that has increasingly taken on genocidal characteristics. The case for action at first glance is indisputable. The UN now confirms a death toll over 100,000 people, the vast majority of whom have been killed by Assad's troops. An estimated 4.5 million people have been displaced from their homes. International observers have overwhelmingly confirmed Assad's complicity in the preponderance of war crimes and crimes against humanity against the Syrian people. The illegitimacy of his regime, and the legitimacy of the uprising, is clear.

Experts are unanimous that the shocking footage of civilians, including children, suffering the effects of some sort of chemical attack, is real - but remain divided on whether it involved military-grade chemical weapons associated with Assad's arsenal, or were a more amateur concoction potentially linked to the rebels.

Whatever the case, few recall that US agitation against Syria began long before recent atrocities, in the context of wider operations targeting Iranian influence across the Middle East.

In May 2007, a presidential finding revealed that Bush had authorised CIA operations against Iran. Anti-Syria operations were also in full swing around this time as part of this covert programme, according to Seymour Hersh in the New Yorker. A range of US government and intelligence sources told him that the Bush administration had "cooperated with Saudi Arabia's government, which is Sunni, in clandestine operations" intended to weaken the Shi'ite Hezbollah in Lebanon. "The US has also taken part in clandestine operations aimed at Iran and its ally Syria," wrote Hersh, "a byproduct" of which is "the bolstering of Sunni extremist groups" hostile to the United States and "sympathetic to al-Qaeda." He noted that "the Saudi government, with Washington's approval, would provide funds and logistical aid to weaken the government of President Bashir Assad, of Syria," with a view to pressure him to be "more conciliatory and open to negotiations" with Israel. One faction receiving covert US "political and financial support" through the Saudis was the exiled Syrian Muslim Brotherhood.

According to former French foreign minister Roland Dumas, Britain had planned covert action in Syria as early as 2009: "I was in England two years before the violence in Syria on other business", he told French television:
"I met with top British officials, who confessed to me that they were preparing something in Syria. This was in Britain not in America. Britain was preparing gunmen to invade Syria."

The 2011 uprisings, it would seem - triggered by a confluence of domestic energy shortages and climate-induced droughts which led to massive food price hikes - came at an opportune moment that was quickly exploited. Leaked emails from the private intelligence firm Stratfor including notes from a meeting with Pentagon officials confirmed US-UK training of Syrian opposition forces since 2011 aimed at eliciting "collapse" of Assad's regime "from within."

So what was this unfolding strategy to undermine Syria and Iran all about? According to retired NATO Secretary General Wesley Clark, a memo from the Office of the US Secretary of Defense just a few weeks after 9/11 revealed plans to "attack and destroy the governments in 7 countries in five years", starting with Iraq and moving on to "Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Iran." In a subsequent interview, Clark argues that this strategy is fundamentally about control of the region's vast oil and gas resources.

Much of the strategy currently at play was candidly described in a 2008 US Army-funded RAND report, Unfolding the Future of the Long War (pdf). The report noted that "the economies of the industrialized states will continue to rely heavily on oil, thus making it a strategically important resource." As most oil will be produced in the Middle East, the US has "motive for maintaining stability in and good relations with Middle Eastern states":

"The geographic area of proven oil reserves coincides with the power base of much of the Salafi-jihadist network. This creates a linkage between oil supplies and the long war that is not easily broken or simply characterized... For the foreseeable future, world oil production growth and total output will be dominated by Persian Gulf resources... The region will therefore remain a strategic priority, and this priority will interact strongly with that of prosecuting the long war."

In this context, the report identified several potential trajectories for regional policy focused on protecting access to Gulf oil supplies, among which the following are most salient:

"Divide and Rule focuses on exploiting fault lines between the various Salafi-jihadist groups to turn them against each other and dissipate their energy on internal conflicts. This strategy relies heavily on covert action, information operations (IO), unconventional warfare, and support to indigenous security forces... the United States and its local allies could use the nationalist jihadists to launch proxy IO campaigns to discredit the transnational jihadists in the eyes of the local populace... US leaders could also choose to capitalize on the 'Sustained Shia-Sunni Conflict' trajectory by taking the side of the conservative Sunni regimes against Shiite empowerment movements in the Muslim world.... possibly supporting authoritative Sunni governments against a continuingly hostile Iran."

Exploring different scenarios for this trajectory, the report speculated that the US may concentrate "on shoring up the traditional Sunni regimes in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Pakistan as a way of containing Iranian power and influence in the Middle East and Persian Gulf." Noting that this could actually empower al-Qaeda jihadists, the report concluded that doing so might work in western interests by bogging down jihadi activity with internal sectarian rivalry rather than targeting the US:

"One of the oddities of this long war trajectory is that it may actually reduce the al-Qaeda threat to US interests in the short term. The upsurge in Shia identity and confidence seen here would certainly cause serious concern in the Salafi-jihadist community in the Muslim world, including the senior leadership of al-Qaeda. As a result, it is very likely that al-Qaeda might focus its efforts on targeting Iranian interests throughout the Middle East and Persian Gulf while simultaneously cutting back on anti-American and anti-Western operations."

The RAND document contextualised this disturbing strategy with surprisingly prescient recognition of the increasing vulnerability of the US's key allies and enemies - Saudi Arabia, the Gulf states, Egypt, Syria, Iran - to a range of converging crises: rapidly rising populations, a 'youth bulge', internal economic inequalities, political frustrations, sectarian tensions, and environmentally-linked water shortages, all of which could destabilise these countries from within or exacerbate inter-state conflicts.

The report noted especially that Syria is among several "downstream countries that are becoming increasingly water scarce as their populations grow", increasing a risk of conflict. Thus, although the RAND document fell far short of recognising the prospect of an 'Arab Spring', it illustrates that three years before the 2011 uprisings, US defence officials were alive to the region's growing instabilities, and concerned by the potential consequences for stability of Gulf oil.

These strategic concerns, motivated by fear of expanding Iranian influence, impacted Syria primarily in relation to pipeline geopolitics. In 2009 - the same year former French foreign minister Dumas alleges the British began planning operations in Syria - Assad refused to sign a proposed agreement with Qatar that would run a pipeline from the latter's North field, contiguous with Iran's South Pars field, through Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria and on to Turkey, with a view to supply European markets - albeit crucially bypassing Russia. Assad's rationale was "to protect the interests of [his] Russian ally, which is Europe's top supplier of natural gas."

Instead, the following year, Assad pursued negotiations for an alternative $10 billion pipeline plan with Iran, across Iraq to Syria, that would also potentially allow Iran to supply gas to Europe from its South Pars field shared with Qatar. The Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) for the project was signed in July 2012 - just as Syria's civil war was spreading to Damascus and Aleppo - and earlier this year Iraq signed a framework agreement for construction of the gas pipelines.

The Iran-Iraq-Syria pipeline plan was a "direct slap in the face" to Qatar's plans. No wonder Saudi Prince Bandar bin Sultan, in a failed attempt to bribe Russia to switch sides, told President Vladmir Putin that "whatever regime comes after" Assad, it will be "completely" in Saudi Arabia's hands and will "not sign any agreement allowing any Gulf country to transport its gas across Syria to Europe and compete with Russian gas exports", according to diplomatic sources. When Putin refused, the Prince vowed military action.

It would seem that contradictory self-serving Saudi and Qatari oil interests are pulling the strings of an equally self-serving oil-focused US policy in Syria, if not the wider region. It is this - the problem of establishing a pliable opposition which the US and its oil allies feel confident will play ball, pipeline-style, in a post-Assad Syria - that will determine the nature of any prospective intervention: not concern for Syrian life.

What is beyond doubt is that Assad is a war criminal whose government deserves to be overthrown. The question is by whom, and for what interests?

Dr Nafeez Ahmed is executive director of the Institute for Policy Research & Development and author of A User's Guide to the Crisis of Civilisation: And How to Save It among other books. Follow him on Twitter @nafeezahmed
A more detailed in-depth special report based on this article is available at the author's website here. http://www.nafeezahmed.com/2013/08/special-report-syria-intervention-plans.html

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2013/aug/30/syria-chemical-attack-war-intervention-oil-gas-energy-pipelines
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