Topic: The UK - Normal Island - A Sense Of Foreboding

[Commie Bobbie]

A few months ago, after I posted my question about the State of the States - and just how the United States had got to the place it had done - I started to wonder whether the United Kingdom was in a similar dire situation but without the ability to get itself out of the hole it had found itself in.

I was in Amsterdam the day Liz Truss ended her 50 odd day debacle in charge of this place and looking in from the outside there was a sense of bewilderment of just the fuck we got to that point and just what was the final destination for GB plc.

Now, as we head into an uncertain Autumn particularly for an awful lot of homeowners, and with the cost of living continuing to hold a iron-like grip on the finances of the country from the treasury to the person sleeping in a tent outside the Sainsburys down here - I just can't help but wonder whether we are heading into a place that felt unthinkable only a decade or so ago.

It may be because my new and current job means that I am first port of call for those who get Section 21 notices, but also those who have lost the battle to keep their head above water mortgage-wise - that the precarious state of the country feels more acute to me, but still.

Now, I don't want this to descend into a Tory Bad, Labour Badder etc discussion - but more where the fuck it went wrong - and how we could have avoided particular events from coming to fruition as well what we can do now - to try and make this winter especially a bit easier for those struggling.

[Shankly998]

Thatcher is where the problems with the housing market started

[west_london_red]

The problem is you’ve kind of answered your own question but don’t want us to talk about it, it’s those bastard Tories who have done this:

Austerity - they hollowed out public services and the safety net that people rely on because of their ideology, but along with that they completely destroyed growth in the economy. And when all else fails, they revert to their stock answer of inflating the housing market to please their base and fuck over younger people.

Brexit - was about nothing than the internal politics and battles within the Tory Party. The other thing to add, and this is just my gut feeling and I don’t recall seeing any evidence for it, but if there was no Austerity then Remain would have won the Referendum. Cameron and Osborne took away people’s hopes and aspirations of those at the bottom of society and then asked to vote for more of the same by voting Remain so unsurprisingly they told them to fuck off.

Covid - obviously wasn’t the Tories fault, but again they had cut everything to the bone such that when there is a shock to the system there’s no capacity to deal with it. Then after you ask public sector to become hero’s you reward them with derisory pay awards because of a mixture of ideology and unparalleled economic mismanagement over the previous 10 years.

Ukraine - again not the Tories fault in itself, but again they could have protected people at home more from the impacts of inflation but they’ve fucked the economy so badly there’s no fat left to help people as much as they need and again there’s probably also an ideology reluctance.

[So… Howard Philips]

Thatcher is where the problems with the housing market started

Not just the housing market but the encouragement of greed and not giving a shit about your community.

[lobsterboy]

The ECHR stuff is ramping now.
Scary, sobering times.
My missus was born in Germany, she is looking to apply for a German passport so we can get out before its too late.

[Sangria]

The problem is you’ve kind of answered your own question but don’t want us to talk about it, it’s those bastard Tories who have done this:

Austerity - they hollowed out public services and the safety net that people rely on because of their ideology, but along with that they completely destroyed growth in the economy. And when all else fails, they revert to their stock answer of inflating the housing market to please their base and fuck over younger people.

Brexit - was about nothing than the internal politics and battles within the Tory Party. The other thing to add, and this is just my gut feeling and I don’t recall seeing any evidence for it, but if there was no Austerity then Remain would have won the Referendum. Cameron and Osborne took away people’s hopes and aspirations of those at the bottom of society and then asked to vote for more of the same by voting Remain so unsurprisingly they told them to fuck off.

Covid - obviously wasn’t the Tories fault, but again they had cut everything to the bone such that when there is a shock to the system there’s no capacity to deal with it. Then after you ask public sector to become hero’s you reward them with derisory pay awards because of a mixture of ideology and unparalleled economic mismanagement over the previous 10 years.

Ukraine - again not the Tories fault in itself, but again they could have protected people at home more from the impacts of inflation but they’ve fucked the economy so badly there’s no fat left to help people as much as they need and again there’s probably also an ideology reluctance.

You can trace it back to a sense of stagnation under the last Labour government and a feeling that "proper change" was necessary. We wanted proper change, we got proper change.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

The ECHR stuff is ramping now.
Scary, sobering times.
My missus was born in Germany, she is looking to apply for a German passport so we can get out before its too late.

Given the choice I'd be there in a flash.

[lobsterboy]

You can trace it back to a sense of stagnation under the last Labour government and a feeling that "proper change" was necessary. We wanted proper change, we got proper change.

We got short changed.

[naka]

genuinely still think gb plc is living in the past, when it was a world power and this is inhibiting growth.
there are so many issues to address

1 there is no manfacturing
2 Brexit  is a fk up
3 the nhs is dying on its feet as is teh education system ( my wife is ateacher and unions arent helping, they are embedded in ertaining teh old systems and won`t modernise)
4 people dont want to pay taxes

its just a disaster

[Titi Camara]

The class system still has a huge influence in this country. The deference shown to Jacob Rees-Mogg, the harrowing outcome of a bout of hate-sex between a Dalek and a bassoon, by a large part of the electorate is a stark example of this. The refusal/unwillingness to rise up the way the French do to injustice is the ongoing cost for this country.

Current problems started with Thatcher, sale of public assets for a fraction of what they were worth for short term gains. Greed of the few over the welfare of the many. The "I'm alright, Jack" mentality becomes largely socially acceptable. Theft from the public purse by those in power. Stagnation of new homes being built and a large part of those already on the ladder nodding along to protect their own interests. The "managed decline" of the north. The lack of investment in public services and infrastructure. The loss of manufacturing and lack of competitiveness attracting new business/investment to the country. Attacks on education, introduction of tuition fees.

The shift, post 80's, to a service industry economy that, relatively speaking, was short lived with many jobs moving abroad.

London as the money laundering capital of Europe/World.

The largest and most catastrophic act of self-inflicted harm by a country since the 2nd world war in Brexit, which happened largely because of a pack of lying c*nts but also the country was already on one one knee, and those with fuck all were sold the lie that anything had to be better than the status quo.

A peculiarity of this long dead empire is that parts of this country, of it's people, still hang on to a whopping great ego. A belief in it's exceptionalism that is at stark odds with it's actual position on the world stage by every meaningful measure . If the, Dunning–Kruger effect, was a country Britain would be it!

The continued allowance of foreign owned UK news outlets. That we continue to allow the c*nt Murdoch so much influence on the direction of this country is an absolute mystery.

The shite state of the media in general. The meekness and partisanship the BBC shows to those in power.

The continued influence of Tufton Street lobbyists.

In short, those in power are greedy fucks and show a distinct lack of morality about how they reach their goals, not just the government but those pulling the strings behind them. In contrast, the general population is apathetic, divided, easily distracted and increasingly uneducated. And the main stream media does less than fuck all to provide checks and balances to government, largely because they are hand in glove.

[Riquende]

In contrast, the general population is apathetic, divided, easily distracted and increasingly uneducated.

Totally agree on all points in the post, one specific thing I think the population has been fooled/distracted by is the idea that the economy is working for them as long as the value of their house was rising. Meanwhile, successive governments going back decades have been shovelling public money out into the private sector at an accelerating rate, gutting our (society's) actual wealth from under us.

[lobsterboy]

Michelle Mone steals 220 million from the tax payer and Murdoch's Scum rag runs pictures of her out enjoying the money saying how beautiful she looks.
The royal tampon takes bags of cash in exchange for honours and citizenships for a saudi national but the racist sexist MET say nothing to see here we might upset some important people.
This country desperately needs an education and revolution.

[west_london_red]

Totally agree on all points in the post, one specific thing I think the population has been fooled/distracted by is the idea that the economy is working for them as long as the value of their house was rising. Meanwhile, successive governments going back decades have been shovelling public money out into the private sector at an accelerating rate, gutting our (society's) actual wealth from under us.

This is what bothers me the most. The “I’m alright Jack” attitude has gone to the level where people don’t even think about their own children’s futures (those that can afford to have them that is). How can you celebrate rising house prices and the feeling of wealth it gives you (along with most policies over the last 13 years which have been targeted specifically to help older people at the expense of younger people) when your own children and grandchildren are the one’s getting fucked over at the same time? It’s completely perplexing.

[Red-Soldier]

Don't get me started in this thread...

[Oldmanmick]

Not just the housing market but the encouragement of greed and not giving a shit about your community.

Yeah, she got re-elected on the back of the scheme in the 80's to allow people to buy their own council house on the cheap. There's lots of people my age - mid 60's - still living in a 3 or 4 bedroomed ex council house that they'd paid off many years ago. The fact that consecutive Tory governments, & Labour to an extent, have never even gotten close to replacing those houses that were sold off has made it very difficult for young people to get on the housing ladder as they have to pay ridiculous money to private landlords.

[Son of Spion]

Yeah, she got re-elected on the back of the scheme in the 80's to allow people to buy their own council house on the cheap. There's lots of people my age - mid 60's - still living in a 3 or 4 bedroomed ex council house that they'd paid off many years ago. The fact that consecutive Tory governments, & Labour to an extent, have never even gotten close to replacing those houses that were sold off has made it very difficult for young people to get on the housing ladder as they have to pay ridiculous money to private landlords.

And a lot of those private landlords are now renting out those ex council houses for ridiculously high rents. The estate I grew up on now has lots of those houses in the hands of private landlords who live elsewhere and are making a killing off them while some people born on the estate can't afford to now rent on it.

[gazzam1963]

Yeah, she got re-elected on the back of the scheme in the 80's to allow people to buy their own council house on the cheap. There's lots of people my age - mid 60's - still living in a 3 or 4 bedroomed ex council house that they'd paid off many years ago. The fact that consecutive Tory governments, & Labour to an extent, have never even gotten close to replacing those houses that were sold off has made it very difficult for young people to get on the housing ladder as they have to pay ridiculous money to private landlords.

The Liverpool council of the early 80s has to go down as one of the best I’ve known in my lifetime for there urban regeneration programme , imagine anyone trying to build four thousand proper houses , a park , sports centres and the demolition of numerous tower blocks in only three years they would still be planning it for a few years . They did it by hook or crook but I’d take them any day over anything that’s gone since

[Sammy5IsAlive]

I think that the current political system has run its course. When everything was rosy you could get away with alternating Labour/Tory governments undoing each other's work. But the situation we face now - both in parochial terms concerning our economic woes and in wider terms concerning how as a global community we deal with climate change - seems too adverse to be dealt with by our political system. The wrong people are in politics for the wrong reasons and both the Labour and Conservative parties have become hamstrung by their own history and their need to oppose each other. Political debate has become increasingly navel gazing and stereotypical.

I think the whole system needs resetting. I'm sure that everyone has their own ideas, which is probably one of the barriers to making such radical change. I'd be looking at cutting the legislature significantly - abolishing the HoL and cutting the number of MPs maybe down to something like 100. I'd increase MP salaries to match what the most talented people receive in the private sector. I'd take the vetting/selection of political candidates out of the hands of the parties and put it in the hands of a single apolitical body. So to stand for parliament a candidate would have to demonstrate an extremely high level of competency. Once selected, candidates would be free to 'declare' for a party and run under their banner in elections or to continue as independents. Representatives would have longer terms to encourage continuity of policy/direction. Governments would be collaborative and not necessarily party aligned. The Civil Service, non governmental institutions such as the Armed Forces/BoE and representative bodies (of industries or of other interest groups) would be much more involved in policy making and implementation.

I'm sure that there are plenty of holes that can be picked in the above. It is more an example of the type of radical change that I think is required than a perfect solution. 

[Sangria]

I think that the current political system has run its course. When everything was rosy you could get away with alternating Labour/Tory governments undoing each other's work. But the situation we face now - both in parochial terms concerning our economic woes and in wider terms concerning how as a global community we deal with climate change - seems too adverse to be dealt with by our political system. The wrong people are in politics for the wrong reasons and both the Labour and Conservative parties have become hamstrung by their own history and their need to oppose each other. Political debate has become increasingly navel gazing and stereotypical.

I think the whole system needs resetting. I'm sure that everyone has their own ideas, which is probably one of the barriers to making such radical change. I'd be looking at cutting the legislature significantly - abolishing the HoL and cutting the number of MPs maybe down to something like 100. I'd increase MP salaries to match what the most talented people receive in the private sector. I'd take the vetting/selection of political candidates out of the hands of the parties and put it in the hands of a single apolitical body. So to stand for parliament a candidate would have to demonstrate an extremely high level of competency. Once selected, candidates would be free to 'declare' for a party and run under their banner in elections or to continue as independents. Representatives would have longer terms to encourage continuity of policy/direction. Governments would be collaborative and not necessarily party aligned. The Civil Service, non governmental institutions such as the Armed Forces/BoE and representative bodies (of industries or of other interest groups) would be much more involved in policy making and implementation.

I'm sure that there are plenty of holes that can be picked in the above. It is more an example of the type of radical change that I think is required than a perfect solution. 

And we still live in a democracy, and we can vote however we like, and whoever wants to can influence our vote however they like.

I'm still of the opinion that regulating the media is the single most important step to repairing our democracy.

[Red-Soldier]

And we still live in a democracy, and we can vote however we like, and whoever wants to can influence our vote however they like.

I'm still of the opinion that regulating the media is the single most important step to repairing our democracy.

Yes.  But under FPTP, a sizable proportion of our votes are pointless.  It also means a certain demographic holds a disproportionate amount of power and political parties will try to chase their votes, at the expense of others.  Smell that democracy.

You must be living on another planet, if you don't think we need systematic changes.

[Sangria]

Yes.  But under FPTP, a sizable proportion of our votes are pointless.  It also means a certain demographic holds a disproportionate amount of power and political parties will try to chase their votes, at the expense of others.  Smell that democracy.

You must be living on another planet, if you don't think we need systematic changes.

I think the Lords help moderate the worst tendencies of the Commons. Would you like more democracy?

Liberal democracy involves both. The former guarantees a certain level of responsibility, whatever the latter decides. I'm not particularly enamoured with fetishising democracy without liberal guarantees. As that Tory peer noted, Johnson was using the authority of democracy to eradicate the liberal checks and balances.

[Jiminy Cricket]

The ECHR stuff is ramping now.
Scary, sobering times.
My missus was born in Germany, she is looking to apply for a German passport so we can get out before its too late.

Specifically, what's happening now?

[thejbs]

Living in Northern Ireland, I was never one for beating an Irish Republican drum, but slowly since 2010 I’ve become increasingly disillusioned with the UK. Brexit was the tipping point and covid rammed it home.

I’m now at the point where I actively want NI to leave the uk and join with the Republic of Ireland. It’s not a perfect country either, but feels more forward looking. Most of the arguments against a United Ireland are increasingly eroding - the health service here is beyond broken, compared to the nhs. Most of my Protestant mates are at the point where they too would vote to leave the uk.

[jambutty]

Living in Northern Ireland, I was never one for beating an Irish Republican drum, but slowly since 2010 I’ve become increasingly disillusioned with the UK. Brexit was the tipping point and covid rammed it home.

I’m now at the point where I actively want NI to leave the uk and join with the Republic of Ireland. It’s not a perfect country either, but feels more forward looking. Most of the arguments against a United Ireland are increasingly eroding - the health service here is beyond broken, compared to the nhs. Most of my Protestant mates are at the point where they too would vote to leave the uk.

That's the most encouraging news to come out of Ireland I've ever heard.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Living in Northern Ireland, I was never one for beating an Irish Republican drum, but slowly since 2010 I’ve become increasingly disillusioned with the UK. Brexit was the tipping point and covid rammed it home.

I’m now at the point where I actively want NI to leave the uk and join with the Republic of Ireland. It’s not a perfect country either, but feels more forward looking. Most of the arguments against a United Ireland are increasingly eroding - the health service here is beyond broken, compared to the nhs. Most of my Protestant mates are at the point where they too would vote to leave the uk.

That's the most encouraging news to come out of Ireland I've ever heard.

I thought the Good Friday Agreement quite encouraging.

[lobsterboy]

The rest of the world should rename us as the The Effluent Isles.

[jambutty]

Living in Northern Ireland, I was never one for beating an Irish Republican drum, but slowly since 2010 I’ve become increasingly disillusioned with the UK.

I’m now at the point where I actively want NI to leave the uk and join with the Republic of Ireland

You lot working together and being Euro will be a boon.

The World will applaud and the Isle will get the joy it deserves.

Unless the Brits seek alimony. 

[lobsterboy]

Simon Clarke asking Jenrick the ECHR question again yesterday in relation to the illegality of the Rwanda scheme.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

The UK is a failed state.

Literally everything is broken.

[lobsterboy]

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Now, I don't want this to descend into a Tory Bad, Labour Badder etc discussion - but more where the fuck it went wrong - and how we could have avoided particular events from coming to fruition as well what we can do now - to try and make this winter especially a bit easier for those struggling.

Greed, simple as that, right across the board.

Still seeing it now.

[Nobby Reserve]

Jacob Rees-Mogg, the harrowing outcome of a bout of hate-sex between a Dalek and a bassoon

 

Love it!