Topic: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!

[classycarra]

The kids scouts camping trip got cut short so I thought it would be a great idea to invite 5 ten year olds to come to our house for a sleepover. In hindsight not the best idea I've ever had. Now all kids have been moved to the safe room and are fast asleep. Wife is a bit panicky but we're holding up.

You in the safe room also?

Hope you're all safe tonight and beyond, AW too - hopefully the kids being together has been a pleasant distraction for them

[aw1991]

The kids scouts camping trip got cut short so I thought it would be a great idea to invite 5 ten year olds to come to our house for a sleepover. In hindsight not the best idea I've ever had. Now all kids have been moved to the safe room and are fast asleep. Wife is a bit panicky but we're holding up.

You in the safe room also?

Haha. At least they keep each other some company I guess.

Yes we were in a safe room. Hopefully the rest of the night will be quiet.

[Bobsackamano]

No, because they had the audacity to threaten the rest of the world. And if they attain nuclear capabilities, I believe they will act on it.

Exactly, their time is up though. The Iranian people are sick of them and they have just made a catestrophic mistake in launching a direct attack on Israel. Hopefully the Ayatollah and his cronies will be saying bonjour to Allah very soon and Iran can go back to being a Persian nation rather than a fundamentalist Islamic regime. Would be the best result for the entire region.

[Jebediah]

Hope you're all safe tonight and beyond, AW too - hopefully the kids being together has been a pleasant distraction for them

Cheers. A fucked up world we are all living in. Thankfully we at least have shelters and defences.

  It's after 2am so kids fell asleep  again quickly. This isn't their first time having to run to the shelter, and they are too young to know the difference  between an Iranian ballistic missile and a Hamas missile.

[west_london_red]

No, because they had the audacity to threaten the rest of the world. And if they attain nuclear capabilities, I believe they will act on it.

Who did they threaten in 1979?

[farawayred]

Who did they threaten in 1979?

Surely you can answer this yourself, or google it.

[Ma Vie en Rouge]

Because a regime based on religion stands against all democratic values?

And Israel? A nation fundamentally based on Judaism?

[kavah]

All the best Jeb

[west_london_red]

Surely you can answer this yourself, or google it.

If I knew I wouldn’t have asked the question

[classycarra]

And Israel? A nation fundamentally based on Judaism?

Erm...

You know it's a democracy right? For starters. For the rest it seems like you might want to check out the theocracy page on wikipedia too,

[aw1991]

And Israel? A nation fundamentally based on Judaism?

Difference is, Judaism has been reformed. Even now, with the most extremist, conservative government we ever had, there are no strict religious laws (okay some, but nowhere near the same level) you can see on some of our neighbors.

[farawayred]

And Israel? A nation fundamentally based on Judaism?

I despise all extreme religious views without exception. "My guy is better than your guy" is not for me.

But in answer to your question between the lines, if I interpret it correctly, Israel did not deny the right of existence of Iran, nor did it set up proxies in Iraq, Azerbaijan, Afganistan, Pakistan, Turkmenistan and Turkey.

In fact, Iran's actions have one major goal - to make Iran the major player in the Middle East and the main representative of Islam. Do you think the Sunni-dominated countries would ever accept that? Hence, Iran's problem is not only with Israel (though that's the major focus), but with Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Jordan, Syria, Iraq... How the world had stayed quiet and tolerated that for decades is beyond me...

[farawayred]

Difference is, Judaism has been reformed. Even now, with the most extremist, conservative government we ever had, there are no strict religious laws (okay some, but nowhere near the same level) you can see on some of our neighbors.

I don't know if "reformed" is the best explanation, perhaps it is. I look at religions as systems that evolve over time. All monotheistic religions in the region had followed paths that share similarities. The Muslim religion is in its 14th century; what was Christianity in its 14th century (give or take)? Were the Crusades really much different than what Iran is doing now? My beef is that we could have learned from the past...

[west_london_red]

I don't know if "reformed" is the best explanation, perhaps it is. I look at religions as systems that evolve over time. All monotheistic religions in the region had followed paths that share similarities. The Muslim religion is in its 14th century; what was Christianity in its 14th century (give or take)? Were the Crusades really much different than what Iran is doing now? My beef is that we could have learned from the past...

Is Iranian Shiaism any different to Saudi Wahhabism in that regards?

[farawayred]

Is Iranian Shiaism any different to Saudi Wahhabism in that regards?

Not in my view.

But did Saudi Arabia attack Israel? Have I missed something?

[aw1991]

I don't know if "reformed" is the best explanation, perhaps it is. I look at religions as systems that evolve over time. All monotheistic religions in the region had followed paths that share similarities. The Muslim religion is in its 14th century; what was Christianity in its 14th century (give or take)? Were the Crusades really much different than what Iran is doing now? My beef is that we could have learned from the past...

I get what you're saying, but there are some countries that, might still be very terrible in how religious they are, are making steps towards more "modern" ideals. It sucks but changes like that don't happen overnight, so progress is good.

Others, like Iran, have only gone backwards. Lebanon and Syria too, I guess.

[Lone Star Red]

All the best to our Israeli RAWKites over the coming hours, days and weeks. Please stay safe.

[classycarra]

Who did they threaten in 1979?

Recommend reading up on Lebanon in the 1980s, if you're looking to fill a gap in your knowledge on this topic

There's another couple of those "unheard of" (Trademark: In the name of Klopp, 2024) on a US embassy in Beirut. Unlike the attack In the name of Klopp was lamenting, which killed IRGC murderers, thes ones intentionally targeted local and US civilians.

Not to mention various attacks around Europe and other continents, not limited to Paris, Madrid, Copenhagen, Kuwait and Argentina.

Other than that, not at all threatening

[farawayred]

I get what you're saying, but there are some countries that, might still be very terrible in how religious they are, are making steps towards more "modern" ideals. It sucks but changes like that don't happen overnight, so progress is good.

Others, like Iran, have only gone backwards. Lebanon and Syria too, I guess.

I agree. And the religious sentiments go forth and back over time too. Egypt in the 80s was a wonderful moderate country, so was Turkey only ten years ago...

[west_london_red]

Not in my view.

But did Saudi Arabia attack Israel? Have I missed something?

Believe it or not the world doesn’t revolve around Israel. Both countries as most in the region are fundamentalist but for some reason we have for the last 45 years painted Iran as the bad guys, where as the likes of the Saudis as our ‘friends’ (who also don’t recognize Israel) to who we always turn the blind eye (you could even argue that the Saudis have done more harm to the West by their sponsorship of radical organizations than the Iranians). That marginalization of Iran hasn’t helped or based on today’s events worked, if anything it’s completely backfired as they have allied themselves with the likes of Russia.

[RedSince86]

As they are in most of the Middle East. Iran wasn’t a democracy before 1979, it wasn’t one afterwards, it’s no better or worse than Saudi Arabia or other countries in the region yet treated completely differently. Why? Because they had the audacity to overthrow the Shah who was in the Wests pocket.

1953 , UK and CIA overthrew the democratic elected President Mossedeq because he had the gall to take back their oil and nationalise it from the UK who were taking half the profits and filling oil tankers without paying that were on route to the UK.

Shah private police the Savak killed 80000 Iranians, he was wasting the oil proceeds on his family and large inner circle, summed that family up that they filled a 747 with Iranians gold reserves, I hear the Pahlavi family are broke now because the "heir" blew it all in casinos and failed enterprises.

[farawayred]

Believe it or not the world doesn’t revolve around Israel. Both countries as most in the region are fundamentalist but for some reason we have for the last 45 years painted Iran as the bad guys, where as the likes of the Saudis as our ‘friends’ (who also don’t recognize Israel) to who we always turn the blind eye (you could even argue that the Saudis have done more harm to the West by their sponsorship of radical organizations than the Iranians). That marginalization of Iran hasn’t helped or based on today’s events worked, if anything it’s completely backfired as they have allied themselves with the likes of Russia.

Really? I had no idea...

As I said in my previous post, I equate the two. The radicalization is a dangerous proposition regardless of the religion they try to represent. The only reason why I mentioned Israel was because today's attack was against them.

[classycarra]

(you could even argue that the Saudis have done more harm to the West by their sponsorship of radical organizations than the Iranians).

would be hard to measure given how many different proxy terrorists the IRGC sponsor or run
https://www.arabnews.com/node/1615711

[killer-heels]

Those death to the west press conferences wont have the same impact if there was a 2% rise in ticket prices.

[Clint Eastwood]

Isn’t it shit that normal people have to put up with this crap?

Now we await the inevitable response from Israel, who seem happy to continue escalating knowing that the US and UK will stick by them, even when they are blowing their own citizens to bits.

[classycarra]

Isn’t it shit that normal people have to put up with this crap?

Now we await the inevitable response from Israel, who seem happy to continue escalating knowing that the US and UK will stick by them, even when they are blowing their own citizens to bits.

on night Isreal faces hundreds of drone and other attacks from multiple launch sites including Iran itself, causing casualties:

'can't believe Israel (who seem happy) might do something in the future!'

[BarryCrocker]

on night Isreal faces hundreds of drone and other attacks from multiple launch sites including Iran itself, causing casualties:

'can't believe Israel (who seem happy) might do something in the future!'

I honestly think the drone attack in a distraction tactic by the Iranians. They're' about 1,700kms from Israel and have to cross Iraq and Jordan to reach their 'targets'. They'd know that the 'Iron Dome' and additonal support from Israeli backing countries would result in virtually all drones/missiles being taken out. If it's all they do and Israeli walks away unscathed the Iranian leadership will look inept.

200 Drones that miss a whole country versus 1 missile taking out 1 building in Damascus.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

How dare he worry about any escalation.

[classycarra]

I honestly think the drone attack in a distraction tactic by the Iranians. They're' about 1,700kms from Israel and have to cross Iraq and Jordan to reach their 'targets'. They'd know that the 'Iron Dome' and additonal support from Israeli backing countries would result in virtually all drones/missiles being taken out. If it's all they do and Israeli walks away unscathed the Iranian leadership will look inept.

200 Drones that miss a whole country versus 1 missile taking out 1 building in Damascus.

distraction - do you mean a different word? what would they be distracting from? they've already gone big in the last week about this upcoming attack and their statements since show this is their 'main event' rather than something distracting from a bigger plot.

Israrel hasn't walked away unscathed. A number definitely hit, and BBC reporting a 10 year old Bedouin girl hosptalised among the first casualties

[BarryCrocker]

distraction - do you mean a different word? what would they be distracting from? they've already gone big in the last week about this upcoming attack and their statements since show this is their 'main event' rather than something distracting from a bigger plot.

Israrel hasn't walked away unscathed. A number definitely hit, and BBC reporting a 10 year old Bedouin girl hosptalised among the first casualties

Decoy is probably more appropriate. It's a shotgun approach from 1,700kms. I'd be surprised if they haven't got something more substantial lined up via one of their proxies rather than directly.

[RedSince86]

From what you've read and heard about the substantial Iranian missile program, it seems weak posturing with what they used tonight, their top tier missile arsenal has some massive ordernance and are hypersonic, those were definitely not used.

This looks like they were using this as a dummy run and testing the Iron Dome out and also seeing how US would deal with it, they even told Israel, US and the Arabs it was going to happen and when.

If they attack properly, it would be in unison with Hezbollah missiles and Houthi and Syria militia drones.

Hopefully this is the end of it, back channel talks not to escalate this any further and Netanyahu doesn't get his regional war to stop him leaving office and jail time.

[farawayred]

From what you've read and heard about the substantial Iranian missile program, it seems weak posturing with what they used tonight, their top tier missile arsenal has some massive ordernance and are hypersonic, those were definitely not used.

This looks like they were using this as a dummy run and testing the Iron Dome out and also seeing how US would deal with it, they even told Israel, US and the Arabs it was going to happen and when.

If they attack properly, it would be in unison with Hezbollah missiles and Houthi and Syria militia drones.

Hopefully this is the end of it, back channel talks not to escalate this any further and Netanyahu doesn't get his regional war to stop him leaving office and jail time.

Maybe, maybe not; I'm on the fence with this. What bothers me is that the response from Iran was disproportionate. Attack from their own soil is an escalation that is strange in the sense that word on the street was that Iran were holding the rains of Hezbollah not to escalate in response to Gaza. Iran could have chosen to use Hezbollah, the Houthies and other proxies to coordinate attack an on Israel. Why did they chose not to, why risk further escalation by crossing a red line that was never crossed before? Secondly, why 300 drones / rockets (by last figures)? It's too much risk for civilian casualties. If they didn't care, then the proxies were the better option. If it is testing the Iron Dome indeed, then that's in preparation for war. And if so, Israel should destroy all of their nuclear enrichment sites and storage facilities.

It's really a complex issue, but I can't make much sense of what had transpired so far as being a measured response. It is not.

[Jebediah]

One of the many ways in which people outside israel have misunderstood  the attack on Oct 7, was to see it as a terrorist attack in the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

In fact it was the opening salvo in the next phase of Israel’s war with Iran and its proxies.

Maybe that will be more apparent now. Iran is the head of the snake. There will be no peace until it and it's proxies are reined in.

Blaming this all on Netanyahu - much as I despise the fucker - is nonsense.

[Zlen]

One of the many ways in which people outside israel have misunderstood  the attack on Oct 7, was to see it as a terrorist attack in the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
In fact it was the opening salvo in the next phase of Israel’s war with Iran and its proxies.
Maybe that will be more apparent now. Iran is the head of the snake. There will be no peace until it and it's proxies are reined in.
Blaming this all on Netanyahu - much as I despise the fucker - is nonsense.

Nobody misunderstood anything. It was obvious and stated many times over that Hamas is plugged deep into Iran and is being fed both weapons and instructions from them. None of which gave Israel the right to respond like a blood thirsty genocidal horde and start pummeling civilians, starving the population and picking a fight with Iran which you probably want USA to fight for you. And now your solution is to rein in Iran? Sure. How about we rein in Israel a bit as well? When will you give a fucking inch?

[Draex]

Isreal getting it’s just deserves for their months long genocide, good news for Ukraine as it’s less hardware Iran can send to Russia and Israel (and it’s weak allies who could have done the same for Ukraine) can deal with most of it.

[Circa1892]

Isn’t it shit that normal people have to put up with this crap?

Now we await the inevitable response from Israel, who seem happy to continue escalating knowing that the US and UK will stick by them, even when they are blowing their own citizens to bits.

“Blowing their own citizens to bits”?

[Circa1892]

Isreal getting it’s just deserves for their months long genocide, good news for Ukraine as it’s less hardware Iran can send to Russia and Israel (and it’s weak allies who could have done the same for Ukraine) can deal with most of it.

Glad a theocracy potentially provoking a regional war at least gave you some happiness. “Just desserts” - it’s not a game.

[Draex]

Glad a theocracy potentially provoking a regional war at least gave you some happiness. “Just desserts” - it’s not a game.

One this is the Russia/ukraine thread.

Two anyone having sympathy for Israel after watching them carry out genocide needs their heads testing.

Before anyone says anything the hamas terrorise attack as abhorrent as well.

It’s a shit show, enabled by weak narcissistic men in power.

[west_london_red]

Glad a theocracy potentially provoking a regional war at least gave you some happiness. “Just desserts” - it’s not a game.

You don’t think the bombing of an embassy is provocative too?

[The North Bank]

Unfortunately genocides have consequences. And once you aid it abet it and publicly support it, you remove yourself from any position to call for peace. You become an active participant and cant walk yourself back to a position of moral high ground or neutrality . The entire middle east (the streets not the government) absolutely hates israel now and no longer trusts the west because they showed them what their lives are worth in Gaza. Iran has never had so much support in Sunni countries as it does now. It’s like the Genocide we voted for at the UN has somehow got a lot of people to ignore their differences and point a finger at us.
Lets talk about the hamas charter, and the shah, defence by deflection, its worked for decades. Can we not say its nothing to do with us, or does that only apply when Palestinians are being slaughtered ?

I see the RAF are shooting drones down, good use of my tax money, but thousands of children starving to death, its too complicated and things happen in war so its best to stay out of it.