Topic: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!

[Lee1-6Liv]

Of the top five teams, Liverpool have so far this season a negative 62 fouls for versus against. Arsenal are next with a plus 29, a 91 foul swing.

Liverpool: 298 for, 360 against= -62

Arsenal: 296 for, 267 against= +29

City: 293 for, 231 against= +62

Villa: 379 for, 327 against= +52

Spurs: 398 for, 320 against= +78

[DangerScouse]

Of the top five teams, Liverpool have so far this season a negative 62 fouls for versus against. Arsenal are next with a plus 29, a 91 foul swing.

Liverpool: 298 for, 360 against= -62

Arsenal: 296 for, 267 against= +29

City: 293 for, 231 against= +62

Villa: 379 for, 327 against= +52

Spurs: 398 for, 320 against= +78

Very interesting that and tells its own story about how we are reffed.

[Fitzy.]

Of the top five teams, Liverpool have so far this season a negative 62 fouls for versus against. Arsenal are next with a plus 29, a 91 foul swing.

Liverpool: 298 for, 360 against= -62

Arsenal: 296 for, 267 against= +29

City: 293 for, 231 against= +62

Villa: 379 for, 327 against= +52

Spurs: 398 for, 320 against= +78

We also have the fewest yellows per foul. So if nothing else, it shows how well we are coached in terms of when and how to foul.

Sitting on top of the league and giving intelligent fouls away. It’s the type of savvy needed.

[Eeyore]

We also have the fewest yellows per foul. So if nothing else, it shows how well we are coached in terms of when and how to foul.

Sitting on top of the league and giving intelligent fouls away. It’s the type of savvy needed.

The fewest yellows per foul is because most of the fouls weren't fouls. Teams are allowed to buy soft fouls against us. Darwin gets dragged back in the box and we get nothing. We breathe on a player and they go down and get the free kick.

[Redley]

He's a proper little weirdo, no idea why he seems to think the thread spent the whole game talking about him either, no one mentioned him! He must be annoyed he doesn't have any poverty chants to defend today.

Oh was he the guy?!  Separate issues but not a great look.

[ianburns252]

Of the top five teams, Liverpool have so far this season a negative 62 fouls for versus against. Arsenal are next with a plus 29, a 91 foul swing.

Liverpool: 298 for, 360 against= -62

Arsenal: 296 for, 267 against= +29

City: 293 for, 231 against= +62

Villa: 379 for, 327 against= +52

Spurs: 398 for, 320 against= +78

That is truly mad.

Just out of interest I took a look at reds and yellows to match (before starting I would expect us to far exceed those teams - at time of typing this sentence I don't know the outcome but I'm going for 3 extra reds and 10  yellows to reflect the size of that swing)

Club           Foul difference              Red             Yellow           Fouls per card

Liverpool           (62)                       5                   54                    6.1

Arsenal             29                          2                    43                   5.9

City                   62                         2                    46                   4.8

Villa                  52                          2                   79                   4.0
 
Spurs              78                           3                    65                    4.8

Not sure what my conclusion is here but to have such a high foul per card rate then my gut instinct is that it is a feature rather than a bug in terms of our style of play - high pressing so lots of small fouls high up the pitch

Could also be that we get blown up for more easily that other teams (other teams have to commit a great level of foul to get blown up for but more likely to get carded there too) 

[alonsoisared]

Oh was he the guy?!  Separate issues but not a great look.

do you want to debate anything I wrote in that thread or are you just on here to troll people like del is? Any reasonable minded people could see my point even if they disagreed , some agreed with me, it's only a few who have decided to lie about what I wrote and continue to drag it up a few months later.

Has this forum turned into fucking Mean Girls or something? Grow up 

[Fromola]

Regards to the table regarding fouls, it's part of the soft power/biases refs use. It's the big contentious decisions that cause all the fuss. And they often go against us (like the City one) but Howard Webb isn't sat on television talking about foul counts. Refs know they're under scrutiny when it comes to the big decisions. It's all the soft ones that go against us, particularly in tight games, that they can get away with.

[Fitzy.]

The fewest yellows per foul is because most of the fouls weren't fouls. Teams are allowed to buy soft fouls against us. Darwin gets dragged back in the box and we get nothing. We breathe on a player and they go down and get the free kick.

I think it’s unfair to avoid praise for this football team and how brilliantly they’re coached and how they contend with opposition threat with intelligent game management. Reducing events to broad sweeping statements around apparent non-fouls is to view the game in the most simple terms where strategic and tactical acumen play second fiddle to low hanging notions of bias.

A shame.

So well coached.

[Andy82lfc]

Of the top five teams, Liverpool have so far this season a negative 62 fouls for versus against. Arsenal are next with a plus 29, a 91 foul swing.

Liverpool: 298 for, 360 against= -62

Arsenal: 296 for, 267 against= +29

City: 293 for, 231 against= +62

Villa: 379 for, 327 against= +52

Spurs: 398 for, 320 against= +78

I think there was general shit/possibly bias reffing today, nothing outrageous but these stats show the bigger picture of all those many 50/50’s and more we don’t get.

Where are these stats from are they official? If so they are pretty much as conclusive as you can get.

On a serious note what would those against any leaning towards bias or corruption like Fitzy, yorky etc think of these stats? Genuinely is there any other form of explanation as they seem really damning.

[markmywords]

That is truly mad.

Just out of interest I took a look at reds and yellows to match (before starting I would expect us to far exceed those teams - at time of typing this sentence I don't know the outcome but I'm going for 3 extra reds and 10  yellows to reflect the size of that swing)

Club           Foul difference              Red             Yellow           Fouls per card

Liverpool           (62)                       5                   54                    6.1

Arsenal             29                          2                    43                   5.9

City                   62                         2                    46                   4.8

Villa                  52                          2                   79                   4.0
 
Spurs              78                           3                    65                    4.8

Not sure what my conclusion is here but to have such a high foul per card rate then my gut instinct is that it is a feature rather than a bug in terms of our style of play - high pressing so lots of small fouls high up the pitch

Could also be that we get blown up for more easily that other teams (other teams have to commit a great level of foul to get blown up for but more likely to get carded there too) 

IF those stats belonged to 1 of our rivals, the usual suspects on this thread would conclude we were a dirty team, that deserved harsher punishment.  130 or 50% more fouls than city, but only 15% more yellows.  Tomkins would killed the Internet, death by with graphs and articles

[Jm55]

no way the linesman saw that. If it was given on pitch, I doubt it would be called offside by VAR - although as it's us... - as a frame earlier in the review would have it on. They can't find the exact point the ball was played.

The issue is the fact that every single goal gets checked for offside, the flag going up when a goal goes in is currently completely irrelevant to what happens next as it gets the VAR treatment regardless/

With that in mind I think the next logical outcome is that the linesman is less arsed about flagging, he knows that whether he flags or not it will make no difference, people may react in a couple of ways, uoud like to think that professional pride kicks in and they do their best to actually make the right decision, to end up top of the refs league on fewest number of VAR offside overturns (ie the fewest number of decisions they’d got wrong,) but the lazy option is to just flag if it’s marginal knowing that if it’s wrong it will be unlikely to cast much negativity on them as it will be such a slight difference that nobody will blame them for it.

Where I’m going with this is that I think if you could somehow replay every goal without VAR that I think you’d get totally different Lino decisions - therefore he may well have not seen it but he saw enough to think it might be offside so he flagged, knowing that in the event that he was wrong that it solid probably be marginal and it would get overturned anyway so no harm done.

As for the call itself I think offside tech these days is semi-automated, the line showed him to be just off to my mind so no issue.

The problem with today’s refereeing performance for me is Coote and the wildly differing fouls for both sides; the ridiculous decision to book Mac Allister etc.

I think people are reaching for trying to suggest the goal should have stood when there’s a freeze frame showing him to be marginally offside.

I’ve said a few times that my view on offsides is if you need to be drawing lines to decide whether the player is onside or offside (or need to be sending refs to the monitor for subjective offsides) then the onside decision should stand, that would mean that todays goal remains disallowed but for example Ban Dijk’s at Wembley would have stood.

[DangerScouse]

I think it’s unfair to avoid praise for this football team and how brilliantly they’re coached and how they contend with opposition threat with intelligent game management. Reducing events to broad sweeping statements around apparent non-fouls is to view the game in the most simple terms where strategic and tactical acumen play second fiddle to low hanging notions of bias.

A shame.

So well coached.

The extent of your continued patronisation is something to behold. Imagine watching all of our games and not even accepting there could be a semblance of inconsistency and bias when we are involved.

There's also an element of unfounded arrogance with your tone and dismissal of others, despite some startling evidence to the contrary in respect of your stance.

[Yorkykopite]

do you want to debate anything I wrote in that thread or are you just on here to troll people like del is? Any reasonable minded people could see my point even if they disagreed , some agreed with me, it's only a few who have decided to lie about what I wrote and continue to drag it up a few months later.

Has this forum turned into fucking Mean Girls or something? Grow up 

He doesn't want to debate a damn thing. Opened his account in mid-November. Operates exclusively in sarcasm mode. One thousand three hundred posts already. Most of them on here spreading conspiracy theories.

[Andy82lfc]

The extent of your continued patronisation is something to behold. Imagine watching all of our games and not even accepting there could be a semblance of inconsistency and bias when we are involved.

There's also an element of unfounded arrogance with your tone and dismissal of others, despite some startling evidence to the contrary in respect of your stance.

Forgive me if I’m wrong but I think it was Fitzy who admitted the other day he is close to a girl who is the daughter of one of the refs in the PL?

I was surprised not many said much but it’s your smoking gun as to why he is so emotionally invested in the other side of the debate if that’s true.

[Yorkykopite]

Forgive me if I’m wrong but I think it was Fitzy who admitted the other day he is close to a girl who is the daughter of one of the refs in the PL?

I was surprised not many said much but it’s your smoking gun as to why he is so emotionally invested in the other side of the debate if that’s true.

Fitzy is part of the conspiracy!

Jeez, this is fantastic news. We're finally making inroads.

[Redley]

He doesn't want to debate a damn thing. Opened his account in mid-November. Operates exclusively in sarcasm mode. One thousand three hundred posts already. Most of them on here spreading conspiracy theories.

What is there to debate? You lads literally dodge everything put to you. You think Abu Dhabi paid refs giving incredible dodgy decisions to Abu Dhabi and PGMOL covering it up doesn’t mean anything dodgy is going on. What else is there to debate…?

[Yorkykopite]

What is there to debate?

Do you think we might win the League. Or will the conspiracy network stop us? Will the conspirators get more desperate as we get nearer to lifting the trophy? Will Tierney (Played 9 Lost 9) be told to 'up his game'? ("Nine fucking games Paul. Mate! And you haven't found a way of depriving the Scousers of a single, solitary point!") Or has he had his last chance after today and will he not be permitted to ref us anymore?

[Sheer Magnetism]

Forgive me if I’m wrong but I think it was Fitzy who admitted the other day he is close to a girl who is the daughter of one of the refs in the PL?

I was surprised not many said much but it’s your smoking gun as to why he is so emotionally invested in the other side of the debate if that’s true.

Yeah, that's right. It's Fitzy who's emotionally invested here, rather than all the people scrabbling to find reasons the entire world's against us. Incredible.

[DangerScouse]

Yeah, that's right. It's Fitzy who's emotionally invested here, rather than all the people scrabbling to find reasons the entire world's against us. Incredible.

 Christ.

[Redley]

Do you think we might win the League. Or will the conspiracy network stop us? Will the conspirators get more desperate as we get nearer to lifting the trophy? Will Tierney (Played 9 Lost 9) be told to 'up his game'? ("Nine fucking games Paul. Mate! And you haven't found a way of depriving the Scousers of a single, solitary point!") Or has he had his last chance after today and will he not be permitted to ref us anymore?

I never really understand your point on this. There can’t be bias against us because we win a game, if we win the league that proves there’s no bias against us? It’s confusing.

We’re fighting the team we play on the day, and often the officials. We should be miles clear. Fair play to you for being able to look past it and thinking everyone in a body such as the PGMOL is completely honest and calls everything straight down the line.

[Andy82lfc]

Flipping heck! Touched a nerve with Yorky and others there, sorry gents. 

Was a genuine question and point I was raising and the same would go for any debate and myself included.

Maybe Yorky you can answer the question I asked about the data table rather than jump into another direction.

I know it’s always difficult to tell over text but genuinely just asking, not trying to be funny on either point. Just find that data quite damning and wondered if I’m getting that wrong or if there is an explanation from the other side.

[Yorkykopite]

I never really understand your point on this.

I know you don't.

[Jm55]

Forgive me if I’m wrong but I think it was Fitzy who admitted the other day he is close to a girl who is the daughter of one of the refs in the PL?

I was surprised not many said much but it’s your smoking gun as to why he is so emotionally invested in the other side of the debate if that’s true.

Does there need to be a smoking gun?

On this forum people will argue with each other about literally anything, I don’t think you need to look for reasons as to why someone holds a different view really.

[Johnny Foreigner]

On this forum people will argue with each other about literally anything, I don’t think you need to look for reasons as to why someone holds a different view really.

Not true

[Jm55]

Not true

 

[Redley]

I know you don't.

What do you make of that situation though Yorky, I can’t see that you’ve actually answered it. A ref paid by Abu Dhabi, who then makes an inexplicable mistake in a game involving Man City, and Howard Webb who has okay’d ‘extra curricular activities’ gaslights us all to cover it up. You legit think that’s all above board?

[Andy82lfc]

Does there need to be a smoking gun?

On this forum people will argue with each other about literally anything, I don’t think you need to look for reasons as to why someone holds a different view really.

Probably worded it wrong mate, my fault, but my point was just trying to understand some that seem so entrenched on either side. That data table is another nail on the side of bias, so if it’s so easily brushed aside it just makes me think about what was mentioned the other day and if that was me I’d probably also be inclined to be more defensive.

On the data is that something that can be explained any other way than the refs, consciously or not, imparting bias?

[Mister Flip Flop]

Of the top five teams, Liverpool have so far this season a negative 62 fouls for versus against. Arsenal are next with a plus 29, a 91 foul swing.

Liverpool: 298 for, 360 against= -62

Arsenal: 296 for, 267 against= +29

City: 293 for, 231 against= +62

Villa: 379 for, 327 against= +52

Spurs: 398 for, 320 against= +78

A stat you'll never heard talked about on any of Sky's shows or by their "expert" pundits.

[Jm55]

Probably worded it wrong mate, my fault, but my point was just trying to understand some that seem so entrenched on either side. That data table is another nail on the side of bias, so if it’s so easily brushed aside it just makes me think about what was mentioned the other day and if that was me I’d probably also be inclined to be more defensive.

On the data is that something that can be explained any other way than the refs, consciously or not, imparting bias?

I think part of the issue is that there’s certain people in this thread, or in life generally, who you could present with a pot of paint marked ‘black’ and they’d tell you it was white if it supported what they already thought - we’re probably all a bit like that to some extent as our egos don’t tend to like admitting that we’re wrong, but inevitably what happens when people take staunch positions and absolutely refuse to listen or entertain anything different is others take opposing views and the cycle of shouting at one another continues.

I’ve made my position on this fairly clear before but I’m willing to listen to logical data and arguments in the alternative and numbers like those foul numbers make for pretty interesting reading, on the face of it at least. That said, I’d firstly like to see them from some sort of official source and I’d like someone to present a logical argument as to why they may be exist other than us being subject to bias before presenting it as evidence of anything.

It makes sense because everytime I watch us I’m screaming and feeling like we’re very hard done by but I would feel that way because I’m incredibly bias.

[alonsoisared]

What is there to debate? You lads literally dodge everything put to you. You think Abu Dhabi paid refs giving incredible dodgy decisions to Abu Dhabi and PGMOL covering it up doesn’t mean anything dodgy is going on. What else is there to debate…?

Well, me supposedly defending poverty chanting was what we were talking about there and predictably you have nothing to say to back up that ridiculous interpretation of what I said. As always it's a snide comment, then nothing to back it up with, ignore the reply and then claim it's other people dodging.

[JP!]

I love this thread because I'm sort of ambivalent to whether there's a conspiracy or not but the sheer condescension from those who have decided there isn't basically keeps the fires burning because one of them can't just say 'yeah, those are shite decisions and we get more of them than most teams', it's always got to be in this 'you're all screaming mad about it' way.  I'm generally pretty happy when we win, what sparks a debate and comments (and probably the annoyance) in this thread when we get a bad decision is the mocking way that the 'everything is fine' crowd react.

So then the conspiracy side doubles down, and you get 81 pages of a Monty Python sketch.

[Eeyore]

Do you think we might win the League. Or will the conspiracy network stop us? Will the conspirators get more desperate as we get nearer to lifting the trophy? Will Tierney (Played 9 Lost 9) be told to 'up his game'? ("Nine fucking games Paul. Mate! And you haven't found a way of depriving the Scousers of a single, solitary point!") Or has he had his last chance after today and will he not be permitted to ref us anymore?

Without the Diaz goal being ruled out wrongly. The Odegaard handball and the Doku high boot we could be 10 points clear. The fact that there is still a title race is down to the officials. If Fernandes had received a 2nd yellow for a horror challenge we would almost certainly still be in the FA Cup.

For me the bias means things are stacked against us. The quality of the team and the manager and the mentality of the team means we are currently just about overcoming that bias. I mean we had a goal ruled out against Spurs two players wrongly sent off and still nearly ended up with a point. 

[Lee1-6Liv]

Without the Diaz goal being ruled out wrongly. The Odegaard handball and the Doku high boot we could be 10 points clear. The fact that there is still a title race is down to the officials. If Fernandes had received a 2nd yellow for a horror challenge we would almost certainly still be in the FA Cup.

For me the bias means things are stacked against us. The quality of the team and the manager and the mentality of the team means we are currently just about overcoming that bias. I mean we had a goal ruled out against Spurs two players wrongly sent off and still nearly ended up with a point. 

We are only on top because we committed 93 more intelligent fouls than arsenal and 129 more than city according to some.

[Eeyore]

It beggars belief that anyone could watch today's game and see Coote giving decisions 5-10 seconds after the event and not think something was up. Even Carragher on Sky said it looked like someone was giving him info through his earpiece.

Then Coote who allowed Brighton free reign to time waste at every set piece actually goes and moves the balls behind the goal at 2-1.

Coote gets booed off at half time and yet we still get the same posters doubling down and obfuscating.

[Andy82lfc]

I think part of the issue is that there’s certain people in this thread, or in life generally, who you could present with a pot of paint marked ‘black’ and they’d tell you it was white if it supported what they already thought - we’re probably all a bit like that to some extent as our egos don’t tend to like admitting that we’re wrong, but inevitably what happens when people take staunch positions and absolutely refuse to listen or entertain anything different is others take opposing views and the cycle of shouting at one another continues.

I’ve made my position on this fairly clear before but I’m willing to listen to logical data and arguments in the alternative and numbers like those foul numbers make for pretty interesting reading, on the face of it at least. That said, I’d firstly like to see them from some sort of official source and I’d like someone to present a logical argument as to why they may be exist other than us being subject to bias before presenting it as evidence of anything.

It makes sense because everytime I watch us I’m screaming and feeling like we’re very hard done by but I would feel that way because I’m incredibly bias.

I agree mate, and although I'm firmly on the side of bias, not corruption, being the main reason for such decisions season after season (that includes against more sides than just us also), I also am open that if somebody showed me something to show these refs and PGMOL are susceptible to bias in any way, or data backing such points up, then I'm always going to listen to that, it's not a hill I'm that arsed to die on either way. The problem with proving it either way though, is that as we know bias is impossible to prove unless the person actually admits that 'sorry guys you are right I have been favouring various teams over many years'.

I get a bit wound up though by some that seem to get involved with the debate that seem to have absolutely no interest in being open, constantly avoid questions or data and like a lawyer within a trial, will never give an inch to the other side and as you say always see the paint as white.

[rob1966]

It beggars belief that anyone could watch today's game and see Coote giving decisions 5-10 seconds after the event and not think something was up. Even Carragher on Sky said it looked like someone was giving him info through his earpiece.

Then Coote who allowed Brighton free reign to time waste at every set piece actually goes and moves the balls behind the goal at 2-1.

Coote gets booed off at half time and yet we still get the same posters doubling down and obfuscating.

The cheating today was so fucking obvious, Darwin gets pulled, nothing given, Virg complains to coote that he's getting dragged by his shirt sleeves, nothing given, Mac touches a Brighton player and Tierney tells Coote to give him a yellow, its corruption/bias/cheating end of

[Avens]

We also have the fewest yellows per foul. So if nothing else, it shows how well we are coached in terms of when and how to foul.

Sitting on top of the league and giving intelligent fouls away. It’s the type of savvy needed.

I think the fact that this stat can also be used with such conviction by those who think they're out to get us shows why this debate has become so completely futile. No evidence is gonna change anyone's mind on this.

[redtel]

Coote was definitely Tierney’s dummy today. Talk about delayed action for yellow cards and even a corner that he wasn’t going to give. Coote has always avoided making decisions if he can ever since he first reffed here in that infamous Burnley 1-1 game. Klopp and Robertson called him out at the end.

One thing Tierney didn’t tell Coote was to direct Macca to go off the pitch for 30secs as required by the law now after treatment for an injury. Macca looked at the ref but nothing so he just stayed on.

I was puzzled at Coote going behind the goal to retrieve the spare balls and put them by their cones. Thinking about it, was it to ensure that spare balls were there in case Brighton wanted to get a quick restart in their hunt for an equaliser? That, if I am right, is so biased it’s funny.

Those stats, if accurate, on our foul count are damning. If only we had an ex Liverpool player that could ask Howard Webb what the bleeding ‘ell is going on? Are we suddenly bottom of the fair play league or is it not published nowadays? The longer this season goes on we seemed to have entered a parallel universe where we get whistled for more fouls, yellow and red cards than I’ve ever known.

[emitime]

One thing Tierney didn’t tell Coote was to direct Macca to go off the pitch for 30secs as required by the law now after treatment for an injury. Macca looked at the ref but nothing so he just stayed on.

I was puzzled at Coote going behind the goal to retrieve the spare balls and put them by their cones. Thinking about it, was it to ensure that spare balls were there in case Brighton wanted to get a quick restart in their hunt for an equaliser? That, if I am right, is so biased it’s funny.

Players don't need to leave the field if the injury is because of a yellow card/red card challenge and treatment is done quickly.

I'd heard maybe the ball thing was because of the goal line tech, but no idea for sure.