Topic: India - deteriorating?

[west_london_red]

Internet services suspended in Punjab as the police arrest Amritpal Singh.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/khalistani-leader-amritpal-singh-detained-punjab-police-2348417-2023-03-18

It’s going to turn very ugly very soon I suspect.

["21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!]

Is he the twat who barged into a police station with swords and machetes to 'rescue' one of his followers?

Punjab is turning into a lawless states with goons and terrorists running it.

I remember a mentally disabled fella getting lynched in broad daylight for supposedly 'desecrating' some religious book a while ago. They are called nihongs or something. They walk around fully armed with swords and knives.

[west_london_red]

Is he the twat who barged into a police station with swords and machetes to 'rescue' one of his followers?

Punjab is turning into a lawless states with goons and terrorists running it.

I remember a mentally disabled fella getting lynched in broad daylight for supposedly 'desecrating' some religious book a while ago. They are called nihongs or something. They walk around fully armed with swords and knives.

I don’t think he personally barged into the police station but his followers attacked one a couple of weeks back.

I would question if Punjab is any more or less lawless then it has been in the recent past or how it compares to other states in India. I suspect the evidence to support that assertion is very limited, and it’s just a convenient stick to beat the AAP with by the other political parties who swap power every 5-10 years. Whoever is in opposition in Punjab accuses whoever is in power of being soft of the Khalistanis, and any Sikh preacher who doesn’t toe the Indian line is accused of being an ISI agent. It’s been like this for as long as I can remember. And if you asked the average person what the real law and order issue is in Punjab, it’s not Amritpal Singh, it’s not Khalistanis, or Hindu right wingers or anything of that kind, it’s drugs. It’s not a lawless state, it’s a narco state but you never hear the central government concerned about that. But utter the word Khalistan and the BJP will be over you like a rash.

As for your last paragraph, the ‘some religious book’ is to a Sikh their guru. It isn’t something you can just go and buy or is found just lying around, their production is very limited, they are only really kept in Sikh temples (a Sikh temple is only a Sikh temple if it has a copy of the holy book), people generally aren’t allowed to keep them at home because of the strict requirements (the book needs it’s own room, no meat or alcohol in the house) so it’s not something one can easily desecrate by accident because access is very limited (im 40 and have only held one once in my life). That doesn’t excuse or justify killing someone’s over it, but it’s not like someone just dropping a book on the floor by accident either and got killed for it, if you desecrate it you know what you are doing just like someone going into a mandir and smashing the statues or going into a synagogue and grabbing a Torah and ripping it up.

As for carrying a sword, it’s very common among Sikhs in Punjab, plenty of my more religious relatives carry a small one day to day and a larger one on religious days or if they are going to the temple etc and is completely within the law.

[Bullet500]

Is he the twat who barged into a police station with swords and machetes to 'rescue' one of his followers?

Punjab is turning into a lawless states with goons and terrorists running it.

I remember a mentally disabled fella getting lynched in broad daylight for supposedly 'desecrating' some religious book a while ago. They are called nihongs or something. They walk around fully armed with swords and knives.

I am not too sure if someone like Amritpal would ever win an election in Punjab or even in a hypothetical independent Khalistan. But looking at BJP and the people who vote for it.......... 

[Bullet500]

That doesn’t excuse or justify killing someone’s over it, but it’s not like someone just dropping a book on the floor by accident either and got killed for it, if you desecrate it you know what you are doing just like someone going into a mandir and smashing the statues or going into a synagogue and grabbing a Torah and ripping it up.

The problem is the sheer brutality of it. People freely record videos and take pictures on smartphones of these brutal acts. It's a cultural problem. It's not just Sikhs who have can have a tendency for this. Every month we see Hindus recording videos while brutalising Muslims. Cross the western border, and you will see the same problem in Pakistan with roles adjusted accordingly.

Not to mention women molestation during Holi two weeks ago. People bring their smartphones out to record these things.

Edit: It is also important to point out that these videos then circulate over WhatsApp and social media for years to spread propaganda, and are often labelled as recent.

[west_london_red]

The problem is the sheer brutality of it. People freely record videos and take pictures on smartphones of these brutal acts. It's a cultural problem. It's not just Sikhs who have can have a tendency for this. Every month we see Hindus recording videos while brutalising Muslims. Cross the western border, and you will see the same problem in Pakistan with roles adjusted accordingly.

Not to mention women molestation during Holi two weeks ago. People bring their smartphones out to record these things.

Edit: It is also important to point out that these videos then circulate over WhatsApp and social media for years to spread propaganda, and are often labelled as recent.

Like I said, I’m not defending it just adding some context. There are plenty of laws in India around hurting religious sentiments that can be used without resorting to mob violence.

[Red-Soldier]

Is there still a Maoist uprising happening, or has that stopped now?

[west_london_red]

Is there still a Maoist uprising happening, or has that stopped now?

Its died down quite over the last few years to the odd sporadic incident where say an army truck or something is attacked, it’s a lot less bloody then it used to be as the Naxalites have been beaten back.

[bornandbRED]

It’s that most Indians are seemingly fine with the encroachment of human rights, arresting of journalists/lawyers, banning of various media sources and even the utilisation of false encounters that really rankles. It’s far from a democracy and it seems there isn’t even room for conversation or nuance (instead - blanket brutality) when it comes to considering why Khalistan is a movement and why there is societal uproar and continuing distrust of government in Punjab.

[Bullet500]

Today, I honestly don't think there is much to the Khalistan movement in India than it is within the Sikh diaspora abroad - quite a lot of Sikhs migrated abroad after the brutal crackdown in late 1980s. Now, the BJP obviously wants the movement to exist so that it gives them the opportunity to 'put minorities in their place'.

Here are pictures of Deep Sidhu with Amit Shah and Modi. Deep Sidhu is the previous leader of Waris Punjab De. Amritpal took over this organisation after Deep Sidhu's death.

https://www.filmibeat.com/bollywood/news/2021/red-fort-violence-sunny-deol-says-no-connection-with-deep-sidhu-after-pictures-of-duo-go-viral-309141.html

Amritpal himself was an unknown person working in Dubai as recently as last year.

No clue what the end game is.

[west_london_red]

It’s that most Indians are seemingly fine with the encroachment of human rights, arresting of journalists/lawyers, banning of various media sources and even the utilisation of false encounters that really rankles. It’s far from a democracy and it seems there isn’t even room for conversation or nuance (instead - blanket brutality) when it comes to considering why Khalistan is a movement and why there is societal uproar and continuing distrust of government in Punjab.

It’s very complicated and a lot of it not unique to India. There’s the usual apathy you get in most countries, people who believe it makes no difference to their lives whoever is in power their lot in life is not going to change much one way or the other so why bother, the governments not bothering me so I’m not gonna bother them. Part of that probably links to fear of reprisals, but also people in India are more direct - what am I going to gain by protesting against the government? Is it going to put money in my pocket or food in my belly? Fuck it, I’m keeping my nose out.

Also, none of this is new. Indian government’s selectively applying the law, applying pressure on the media, being very nationalistic, shouting down anyone who has a different view as anti-national, this has been going on for years, Modi has just taken it up a couple of levels, but it’s always been there so it’s not such a change to people in India.

The other thing to remember is there is a lot of people who actually support the BJP and its allies. It’s a FPTP system so parliamentary majorities are exaggerated, but they are still very popular and a lot of people buy into their messaging.

As for Punjab specifically, there’s always been issues with central government. How the state was created and areas that were included and excluded from the state has always rankled, water rights, then you have Operation Blue Star which was probably the biggest turning point, Anti-Sikh riots in Delhi and the ring leaders getting away with it for so long, the fake encounters in the 80’s and 90’s and lack of justice for the victims from that era, to more recent matters like the drug problem in the state and the lack of action shown by the government.

Look at recent events and the lengths they have gone to to arrest Amritpal Singh and his supporters, why can’t they go to those lengths to arrest those flooding the state with drugs? If you take everything Amritpal Singh said, substitute the word ‘Sikh’ for ‘Hindu’ would the police have come after him? Based on what numerous BJP supporters say and do it’s hard not to see a double standard.

[Bullet500]

As for Punjab specifically, there’s always been issues with central government. How the state was created and areas that were included and excluded from the state has always rankled, water rights, then you have Operation Blue Star which was probably the biggest turning point, Anti-Sikh riots in Delhi and the ring leaders getting away with it for so long, the fake encounters in the 80’s and 90’s and lack of justice for the victims from that era, to more recent matters like the drug problem in the state and the lack of action shown by the government.

The anti-Sikh riots and the perpetrators getting away has always irked me. There can never be any unity without justice.

Apart from the usual politicians, even Bollywood actors like Amitabh Bachchan instigated mobs.

Look at recent events and the lengths they have gone to to arrest Amritpal Singh and his supporters, why can’t they go to those lengths to arrest those flooding the state with drugs? If you take everything Amritpal Singh said, substitute the word ‘Sikh’ for ‘Hindu’ would the police have come after him? Based on what numerous BJP supporters say and do it’s hard not to see a double standard.

Never going to happen. There are actual ministers in the State/Central governments who repeatedly talk similar things like Amritpal.

[masher]

Look at recent events and the lengths they have gone to to arrest Amritpal Singh and his supporters, why can’t they go to those lengths to arrest those flooding the state with drugs? If you take everything Amritpal Singh said, substitute the word ‘Sikh’ for ‘Hindu’ would the police have come after him? Based on what numerous BJP supporters say and do it’s hard not to see a double standard.

You are right, the way drug business has been allowed to thrive in Punjab is tragic. Unfortunately prima facie it looks like the state governments have been in cahoots with the people running the drug business. As law and order is a state subject, nothing much any central government can do unless they dissolve the local government and declare president rules which no one in India is in favor of.

As for this clown Amritpal he is a failed actor who was till recently driving taxis in Dubai. This coward used the Guru Granth Sahib as a shield when his mob of goons went to a police station to release one his aides who was charged & arrested for kidnapping. This is something no Sikh would ever support. This entire Khalistani movement has more support in Canada and UK than in India.

[west_london_red]

You are right, the way drug business has been allowed to thrive in Punjab is tragic. Unfortunately prima facie it looks like the state governments have been in cahoots with the people running the drug business. As law and order is a state subject, nothing much any central government can do unless they dissolve the local government and declare president rules which no one in India is in favor of.

As for this clown Amritpal he is a failed actor who was till recently driving taxis in Dubai. This coward used the Guru Granth Sahib as a shield when his mob of goons went to a police station to release one his aides who was charged & arrested for kidnapping. This is something no Sikh would ever support. This entire Khalistani movement has more support in Canada and UK than in India.

But isn’t that the point? If the drug issue is a just a state issue so is anything Amritpal has or hasn’t done, but the Central government are happy to get involved in the Amritpal case but not drugs. And yes, it wouldn’t surprise me if there is a level of involvement between the state authorities and the drugs trade, which again you would expect the centre tackle (not sure who else would tackle it?)

As for Amritpal, I try to refrain too much on judging people by their backgrounds, theres no shame in driving trucks in Dubai (several of my uncles have done the same) any more then there is in Modi being a chaiwala once upon a time. Also, the ‘actor’ was Deep Sidhu, not Amritpal.

[west_london_red]

Rahul Gandhi: India's Congress leader sentenced to jail for Modi 'thieves' remark

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-65048602.amp

I thought the initial comment about Modi’s being thieves was quite funny

[masher]

But isn’t that the point? If the drug issue is a just a state issue so is anything Amritpal has or hasn’t done, but the Central government are happy to get involved in the Amritpal case but not drugs. And yes, it wouldn’t surprise me if there is a level of involvement between the state authorities and the drugs trade, which again you would expect the centre tackle (not sure who else would tackle it?)

The central government cannot get involved in the drugs issue as per Indian constitution. Even in Amritpal’s case the entire operation is being done by the Punjab police and no central force has been deployed. Although I am sure the central intelligence agencies are giving their inputs. Central government could take over either if they deem him a national security threat or at the request of state government.

[masher]

Rahul Gandhi: India's Congress leader sentenced to jail for Modi 'thieves' remark

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-65048602.amp

I thought the initial comment about Modi’s being thieves was quite funny

Yes hilarious labeling an entire community as thieves.

[TepidT2O]

As an onlooker with no skin in the game, the sentence seems absurdly harsh ……

[west_london_red]

Yes hilarious labeling an entire community as thieves.

He mentioned three people, two of them I think we all accept are thieves. You could argue he defamed Narendra Modi, but it’s a bit of a stretch to say he defamed an entire community.

[Bullet500]

Yes hilarious labeling an entire community as thieves.

That indeed is the literal meaning. But in reality, it was a tongue-in-cheek statement. India has had people like like Lalit Modi and Nirav Modi who escaped the country after committing frauds.

[west_london_red]

The central government cannot get involved in the drugs issue as per Indian constitution. Even in Amritpal’s case the entire operation is being done by the Punjab police and no central force has been deployed. Although I am sure the central intelligence agencies are giving their inputs. Central government could take over either if they deem him a national security threat or at the request of state government.

Central forces have been deployed to the state since the arrest attempt was made. Also the border (the route where most of the drugs come from) is the BSFs responsibility yet they keep on coming through.

[Bullet500]

Indian media: https://twitter.com/TimesNow/status/1638584068878094350

[masher]

That indeed is the literal meaning. But in reality, it was a tongue-in-cheek statement. India has had people like like Lalit Modi and Nirav Modi who escaped the country after committing frauds.

He said words to the effect that all those who are chor (thieves) shared the Modi surname. That is just downright stupid. If any political leader stood up and said all those who share the Khan/Singh/Gandhi/Gupta surname are chor they will open themselves to defamation cases.

[Bullet500]

He said words to the effect that all those who are chor (thieves) shared the Modi surname. That is just downright stupid.

I take my comment back. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iH0fJAswZVg

This is the accurate translation: "Why (How) are these thieves named 'Modi, Modi, Modi'?"

The statement is even weaker than what I had read.

If any political leader stood up and said all those who share the Khan/Singh/Gandhi/Gupta surname are chor they will open themselves to defamation cases.

Good one, but you are joking with yourself.

[masher]

Central forces have been deployed to the state since the arrest attempt was made. Also the border (the route where most of the drugs come from) is the BSFs responsibility yet they keep on coming through.

Central forces were sent at the request of the state government. Punjab CM met the union home minister to request for the same on 28th Feb.

Yes drugs come across the border which is manned by BSF. The DEA has a budget equal to the GDP of a small nation and yet it can’t stop drugs from coming into the US. However you don’t find them at every neighborhood shop available as you do in Punjab.

Punjab is not the only state with a shared border - Kashmir, Rajasthan, Gujarat, Bengal and few northeast states also have a border guarded by the same BSF. However they don’t have the same problem as Punjab. So maybe just maybe the issue is with the local government than anyone else.

[masher]

I take my comment back. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iH0fJAswZVg

This is the accurate translation: "Why (How) are these thieves named 'Modi, Modi, Modi'?"

The statement is even weaker than what I had read.
Good one, but you are joking with yourself.

Followed by “if you look further for thieves you will find more Modi’s”.  I agree it’s weaker than what I had also read but still not very smart. Leaving aside the verdict the second part of the statement will alienate a entire community specially a backward one.

Maybe it’s a blessing in disguise for Congress. Rahul Gandhi can finally garner some votes by going to prison.
 

[Bullet500]

Followed by “if you look further for thieves you will find more Modi’s”.  I agree it’s weaker than what I had also read but still not very smart. Leaving aside the verdict the second part of the statement will alienate a entire community specially a backward one.

Maybe it’s a blessing in disguise for Congress. Rahul Gandhi can finally garner some votes by going to prison.

I know it's a stupid comment. Couldn't care less where Rahul Gandhi ends up, but the main issue is judiciary not doing its job.

[masher]

As an onlooker with no skin in the game, the sentence seems absurdly harsh ……

The tragedy of our country is that while the country became independent in 47, we didn’t get independence from Colonial laws. Defamation shouldn’t be a criminal offense but a civil one, this law is a colonial legacy.

[masher]

I know it's a stupid comment. Couldn't care less where Rahul Gandhi ends up, but the main issue is judiciary not doing its job.

I can go on a diatribe on Indian judiciary. However the verdict will be stayed and conviction likely overturned in the high court.

[west_london_red]

The tragedy of our country is that while the country became independent in 47, we didn’t get independence from Colonial laws. Defamation shouldn’t be a criminal offense but a civil one, this law is a colonial legacy.

One would think after 75 years of independence there would have been enough time to revise those laws, but then I suppose they come in quite handy when you want to lock people up.

[TepidT2O]

The tragedy of our country is that while the country became independent in 47, we didn’t get independence from Colonial laws. Defamation shouldn’t be a criminal offense but a civil one, this law is a colonial legacy.

I bet that, but even then, the punishment is insanely harsh

[masher]

One would think after 75 years of independence there would have been enough time to revise those laws, but then I suppose they come in quite handy when you want to lock people up.

Yes we had enough chance to change it, we haven’t and no political party wants to do it. Which is why I termed it a tragedy. Defamation isn’t the only absurd colonial law still on the books.

[west_london_red]

Yes we had enough chance to change it, we haven’t and no political party wants to do it. Which is why I termed it a tragedy. Defamation isn’t the only absurd colonial law still on the books.

I know, I think ban of homosexuality was based on colonial laws as well?

[ScouserAtHeart]

Rahul Gandhi: India's Congress leader sentenced to jail for Modi 'thieves' remark

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-65048602.amp

I thought the initial comment about Modi’s being thieves was quite funny

If he's smart he'll actually go to jail. Don't see it happening though

[west_london_red]

If he's smart he'll actually go to jail. Don't see it happening though

What’s the logic behind that? I’m obviously missing something?

[ScouserAtHeart]

Become a martyr for free speech, basically. Say I'm being sent to jail because those in power can't handle my questions in Parliament, and I'd rather go to jail than apologize for what I believe in. His problem is people think everything's been handed to him because of his last name (which, let's be honest, is true) and no one takes him seriously as a politician.

So go to jail, even if it's only for a few months, use that time to rally the opposition, tell them they're next if we don't work together, and actually take a back seat and not force everyone to accept him as the leader of the opposition coalition/PM candidate. His first aim must be to get the BJP out of power even if it means he or his party aren't the ones running the next goverment

His past behavior shows none of this is likely. Let's see if he has better advisors around him this time

[west_london_red]

Become a martyr for free speech, basically. Say I'm being sent to jail because those in power can't handle my questions in Parliament, and I'd rather go to jail than apologize for what I believe in. His problem is people think everything's been handed to him because of his last name (which, let's be honest, is true) and no one takes him seriously as a politician.

So go to jail, even if it's only for a few months, use that time to rally the opposition, tell them they're next if we don't work together, and actually take a back seat and not force everyone to accept him as the leader of the opposition coalition/PM candidate. His first aim must be to get the BJP out of power even if it means he or his party aren't the ones running the next goverment

His past behavior shows none of this is likely. Let's see if he has better advisors around him this time

Didn’t think of it that way to be honest, not sure it would work but then he doesn’t have a lot to lose other then a couple of months of freedom so might well give it a try.

[ChaChaMooMoo]

Become a martyr for free speech, basically. Say I'm being sent to jail because those in power can't handle my questions in Parliament, and I'd rather go to jail than apologize for what I believe in. His problem is people think everything's been handed to him because of his last name (which, let's be honest, is true) and no one takes him seriously as a politician.

So go to jail, even if it's only for a few months, use that time to rally the opposition, tell them they're next if we don't work together, and actually take a back seat and not force everyone to accept him as the leader of the opposition coalition/PM candidate. His first aim must be to get the BJP out of power even if it means he or his party aren't the ones running the next goverment

His past behavior shows none of this is likely. Let's see if he has better advisors around him this time

I have said it before, I will say it again. Reason for this current situation in India is because the opposition is shit.
They Congress workers would rather blow RaGa to satisfy him rather than talk sense to him and play a strategic game. We have seen it since 2012. Nothings gonna change.

[west_london_red]

I have said it before, I will say it again. Reason for this current situation in India is because the opposition is shit.
They Congress workers would rather blow RaGa to satisfy him rather than talk sense to him and play a strategic game. We have seen it since 2012. Nothings gonna change.

I think you’re being a bit unfair there. The BJP is a formidable political force, the autocratic right wing play book is well rehearsed across the globe and they have followed it ruthlessly, created the ‘us’ and ‘them’, wrapped themselves in the flag, co-opted or silenced the media, dissent clamped down upon pretty ruthlessly, it’s a very hard formula for anyone to beat.

[ChaChaMooMoo]

I think you’re being a bit unfair there. The BJP is a formidable political force, the autocratic right wing play book is well rehearsed across the globe and they have followed it ruthlessly, created the ‘us’ and ‘them’, wrapped themselves in the flag, co-opted or silenced the media, dissent clamped down upon pretty ruthlessly, it’s a very hard formula for anyone to beat.

They were a nobody in 2001 mate. They were annihilated back to back twice under Manmohan Singh.

What good has Congress done since 2004 other than win back-to-back elections? What did they do since then?

Genuine questions. Name one act of theirs that they can be called a "genuine opposition". Name one strategy of theirs that pinned the BJP on the defensive. And how did that reflect on the national stage and state elections since then?