Topic: Blue Cards and Sin Bins

[Samie]

Or not finish his kebab. False alarm.

Don't be spreading filthy lies Nicholas. 

[4pool]

The only reason Blue cards will be introduced is so Everton supporters can hold up Blue Premier League is corrupt cards.

[SamLad]

from the managers:

Liverpool manager Jurgen Klopp said that he thinks officiating should be made more simple for referees. "These kinds of things just make it more complicated," Klopp told a news conference. "If you want to test it, no problem with testing, but if that's the first step to agreeing or already being sure that it will happen. I have no idea to be honest. I have no idea. [It] doesn't sound like a fantastic idea in first moment. But I can't remember when the last fantastic idea came from these guys [IFAB] if they ever had one."

Tottenham head coach Ange Postecoglou questioned the wisdom behind the trial. "I struggle to understand why this urgency suddenly to bring in new things. I don't know if there's that much wrong with the game," Postecoglou said. "My issue with the game right now is that VAR has changed football as an experience. I don't know why a different colour card is going to make a difference. I don't know about this taking things from other sports. Other sports are trying to make their games faster, we're bringing in more clutter."

Chelsea boss Mauricio Pochettino said that he wants to know how the blue card would be applied in different match situations, and added that he would have been shown "a lot" if they had been introduced while he was still playing. "It's going to be more complicated because the interpretation of the referee [of] when to apply the red, the yellow or the blue [is important]," Pochettino said.
"What happens with the goalkeeper? Do you play without the goalkeeper for 10 minutes or can you change?"

Arsenal manager Mikel Arteta said he could see the potential benefits of the proposed new law. "I think everything is being done with the intention to simplify it and make it more clear and try to cut out mistakes from decisions that are extremely difficult," Arteta told a news conference. "In a split second, you are talking about centimetres, or even millimetres. So hopefully everything is done to improve the game, and if that's the case. It's worth trying." However, the Arsenal boss also said that he wasn't sure whether blue cards and sin bins can benefit the sport in the short term. "We've got a lot going on now with decisions, with technology, with what has come in. I don't know if we're ready for that yet. "Hopefully it's going to be tested very well before we introduce it at this level."

Real Madrid manager Carlo Ancelotti told a news conference on Friday that blue cards will only serve to make football unnecessarily complicated. "The idea I have in general is to simplify the rules as much as possible," Ancelotti said. "I don't know if [blue cards] simplify the referee's job or not. The rules are more complicated every year. I don't know if a blue card makes a referee's job more simple, or more difficult."

Sin bins have already been implemented in the lower levels of football since the 2019-20 season, where players have been shown a yellow card and been ordered to leave the pitch for 10 minutes if they show disrespect to an official. The IFAB is trialling blue cards to make the decision clearer to players, coaches and supporters.

The blue card trial, which is due to take place over the course of next season, will not be implemented in top level competitions such as the Premier League, LaLiga, Champions League, Euro 2024 or the Copa America and it wouldn't be until the 2026-27 season at the earliest before it could enter the Laws of the Game.

"FIFA wishes to clarify that reports of the so-called 'blue card' at elite levels of football are incorrect and premature," the sport's governing body said in a statement on Thursday. "Any such trials, if implemented, should be limited to testing in a responsible manner at lower levels, a position that FIFA intends to reiterate when this agenda item is discussed at the IFAB AGM on 1 March."

[Solomon Grundy]

Arteta is a bit of an oddball, isn't he?

[Solomon Grundy]

3 points for a win. Substitutes allowed has gradually gone from 0 to the 5 very recently. Backpass rule.  Yellow and red cards. All happened in Klopp's time and pretty significant changes too.

 He's talking more about recent history.

[Crosby Nick]

Arteta is a bit of an oddball, isn't he?

If you mean does he probably bottle and store his own urine, then yes.

[In the Name of Klopp]

I think this will make the game easy to rig. Can you imagine all the questionable blue cards for dissent?

[Solomon Grundy]

If you mean does he probably bottle and store his own urine, then yes.

I do.

[redk84]

sort out refs that can implement the current rules properly first then start thinking about new rules you fucking idiots

[Peabee]

I do.

How long do you store it for?

[SamLad]

the bbc asked for comments on this today. some interesting ones:

- We already have punishments for dissent and cynical fouls - it's called a yellow card and the referees are not consistent with their application. This is a waste of time and will just cause more controversy.

- The whole idea of two blues equals a red also makes no sense.

- The reason behind that is that we appear to be changing the laws to accommodate weak and indecisive referee. Referees in the current laws at the elite level have the ability to caution someone for dissent and further dissent to issue a red card.

- Former Premier League and FIFA referee, Keith Hackett, spoke to BBC Radio 5 Live about the potential introduction of blue cards: "Yeah, I think it's a very good point [that sin bins encourage time wasting] and it's one that we do see when a sin bin is applied. I think this is the lawmaker saying, how can we prevent players from disputing decisions in such a difficult manner for the referee when we've got to some degree, the current law not being applied.

- What happens if the goalkeeper is shown a blue card? You wouldn't want to bring another keeper on for only 10 minutes and basically waste a sub, but playing without a keeper, even for a short period, will inevitably see the opposition score. Half-baked nonsense.

- I've been watching football, coaching football for donkeys years, and now I just don't know what I'm watching anymore. The referees don't know, the crowds don't know, nobody knows what's a yellow, what's a red? I don't know what a blue is going to be and how long it's going to take for VAR to decide if it's a blue or a yellow or a red, because they'll have to look at it. They won't be able to let the referees just make a decision. The referees, to be honest, they may as well take the referee off the pitch now and just do it from a studio.

[Peabee]

We have this in the league I play in and it's fucking stupid. All that happens is we go down to 10-men and then just time waste as much as we can for those 10-minutes whilst playing shit on a stick football (and it's not exactly a high level with 11 to begin with).

Good points. We'd also have teams (such as Arsenal) play acting and trying to goad the opposition into dissent, to gain an even bigger advantage than a FK or yellow. They're overcomplicating the rules of the game.

[classycarra]

Arteta is a bit of an oddball, isn't he?

was just gonna say, lot of sense being spoken there. then mikel arteta said some random weird stuff

[wenlock]

Some players are taller then others so I presume there will be a selection of wheelie bins at various sizes, will they close the lids?

This will give them time to reflect on their naughtiness but will also mean air holes are needed and will cause delays while players get used to the light levels again on exiting the bin.

[Son of Spion]

Arteta is a bit of an oddball, isn't he?

Once Everton touches you...

[Garlic Red]

I’ve found the reaction to this absolutely baffling. Like is it the duty of every football fan to shoot everything down before it’s even been given a chance? I understand the laws of the game are more debated than ever at the moment, but that doesn’t mean every idea to try and improve things should be shot down into oblivion.

Giving a blue card out for dissent is ridiculous and yellow cards should suffice and be more consistently applied. However, the cynical/professional foul is a great idea. I find watching certain sides that have developed this into a tactic almost unwatchable. I couldn’t stand players like Fernandinho being lauded for their ability to haul down a man consistently to prevent counter attacks. I love counter attacks, they’re one of the most exciting parts of a sport that’s become drab on the whole, and seeing them prevented by another extended shirt pull or the defending player with his arms all over the attacker is shite. Proper shite. I’ve seen both sides of the argument about how people think it will play out, and the suspicion around how this will be consistently applied is fair. But I’m happy to see them try something new and counteract what has now become a very prominent tactic in the modern game. Years ago it was something you would see every few weeks in the odd game, now nearly every game involving certain sides it’s become their go to tactic to stop counter attacks, yellow cards aren’t working.

[slaphead]

It's not so much a case of yellow cards aren't working, more of a case that the people with them in their pockets are complete idiots, and adding more to their already incompetence will only have 1 result.
Get decent refs, apply the rules fairly and consistently, no matter who the team are and job's a goodin.
Giving them idiots another card to lash out is insanity really

[BarryCrocker]

I think Pochettino's comments about goalkeepers is on point. The mechanics on that alone are ridiculous.

[thejbs]

The only change I think football needs is a stop-clock and a 60-70min game. This is unnecessary and will just create more time wasting.

[TipTopKop]

An unnecessary complication...   it's the usual trying to solve a problem by throwing more questions at it.

[Garlic Red]

It's not so much a case of yellow cards aren't working, more of a case that the people with them in their pockets are complete idiots, and adding more to their already incompetence will only have 1 result.
Get decent refs, apply the rules fairly and consistently, no matter who the team are and job's a goodin.
Giving them idiots another card to lash out is insanity really

Yeah the refs aren’t great, but the problem is you have teams actively choosing to take the yellow over conceding the counter. It’s a no brainer, it drives us mad that our players don’t or haven’t done it in the past. Even when a referee does decide to get the yellow out, is it really that much of a punishment? How many players on a yellow go on to get a second yellow? How many high risk counter attacks are teams preventing by taking the professional foul? What % of those situations is that number in those games?

The referees are indefensible, no doubt, the flip flapping around clear and obvious with VAR has become ridiculous, it needs to be fixed, but I’m not convinced this is really that complicated or really worth getting the pitchforks out over. Cynical fouls ruin the game and the spectacle, taking the yellow has become too easy a choice and a straight red is too harsh a punishment so find the middle ground. I’m amazed they haven’t thought this would suit being applied to what people describe as orange card tackles. Would anybody have had an issue if Curtis went off for 10 mins at Spurs? Playing the rest of the game without him felt too harsh on an accidental challenge. This felt like a good opportunity to remove the controversy around harsh straight reds but no.

[lobsterboy]

Just found out that the four FAs from the United Kingdom hold 50% of the voting power in IFAB, assumed it was more international.

Why are we determined to make Football so fucking complicated.

corruption

[classycarra]

I’ve found the reaction to this absolutely baffling.

then this straight after

Giving a blue card out for dissent is ridiculous and yellow cards should suffice and be more consistently applied.

&

it needs to be fixed, but I’m not convinced this is really that complicated or really worth getting the pitchforks out over.

then this straight after

Cynical fouls ruin the game

[SamLad]

then this straight after
&
then this straight after

let me say I find Garlic Red's response to this absolutely baffling. 

[Malaysian Kopite]

Arteta is a bit of an oddball, isn't he?

Won't ever forget him being asked which actor he'd like to play him in a movie and he answered either Denzel Washington or Morgan Freeman 

[Garlic Red]

then this straight after
&
then this straight after

I was trying to offer a balanced an opinion, it feels like the reaction almost instantaneously has been to destroy this due to a myriad of reasons. I was saying I don’t agree with all of it, particularly the dissent one, but I do think having a heavier punishment for cynical fouling is going to be a good move.

The way I look at it is certain laws are brought in to the game to counteract usually tactics or loopholes that are being exploited. Yellow and red cards were brought in to punish foul and dangerous play. The offside rule was brought in to prevent goal hanging and players just lumping it forwards to strikers waiting for easy goals. The pass back rule was brought in to prevent teams from wasting long periods of games just knocking it back to the goalkeeper. I think the lawmakers are looking at tactical and cynical fouling and realising it’s becoming too ‘overpowered’ shall we say. Taking the yellow card vs allowing the counter attack to unfold has now become an easy decision for the defending player. It’s allowed sides like Manchester City to look almost unstoppable at times as they set up in such a way that counter attacks are their biggest weakness, so they simply take the foul every time rather than let the attack unfold and potentially concede a goal or a chance. If they go down to 10 men for 10 minutes, they’re at a disadvantage no matter what way you look at it. That will be good for the game and will either lead to them fouling less and conceding more chances, or playing more games with 10 men for spells, thus, being less able to dominate, less able to prevent counter attacks and more vulnerable overall.

I echo a lot of the thoughts about British referees and the worries around them. But you can’t not look at developing the game and its laws because we perceive referees to be poor at their role. If the football teams weren’t using cynical fouls so much it wouldn’t be a problem, the fact is it’s becoming more prominent and the only thing the lawmakers can do to counter it is bring in a heavier weighted punishment. Yellow cards aren’t an effective deterrent in certain situations. One of the best examples I can give was Ander Herrera’s shirt pull on Bobby all those years ago. It was ridiculous and snide, it didn’t tick any of the boxes for a red card but compared to most yellows it beyond cynical. I want to see that punished more or not be such an easy decision for a player to make.

I’ve seen some managers say it will slow the game down, I’m not sure how? By trying to prevent cynical play it should open the game up if teams don’t want to go down to 10 men? Less fouls, more football. If teams go down to 10 men for 10 mins, it could completely swing the game. Plenty of other sports the ‘sin bin’ usually leads to more goals being scored, which if it does in football, should be enough of a deterrent to prevent sides building their defensive plan around tactical fouls.

[RedDeadRejection]

I’ve found the reaction to this absolutely baffling. Like is it the duty of every football fan to shoot everything down before it’s even been given a chance? I understand the laws of the game are more debated than ever at the moment, but that doesn’t mean every idea to try and improve things should be shot down into oblivion.

Giving a blue card out for dissent is ridiculous and yellow cards should suffice and be more consistently applied. However, the cynical/professional foul is a great idea. I find watching certain sides that have developed this into a tactic almost unwatchable. I couldn’t stand players like Fernandinho being lauded for their ability to haul down a man consistently to prevent counter attacks. I love counter attacks, they’re one of the most exciting parts of a sport that’s become drab on the whole, and seeing them prevented by another extended shirt pull or the defending player with his arms all over the attacker is shite. Proper shite. I’ve seen both sides of the argument about how people think it will play out, and the suspicion around how this will be consistently applied is fair. But I’m happy to see them try something new and counteract what has now become a very prominent tactic in the modern game. Years ago it was something you would see every few weeks in the odd game, now nearly every game involving certain sides it’s become their go to tactic to stop counter attacks, yellow cards aren’t working.

Found the ref guys.

[Garlic Red]

Found the ref guys.

Never refereed a game in my life. Just noticed that certain things have crept into the game and become more commonplace.

I read an interview with Wenger a while ago and he talked about how they didn’t want to alter things like the offside rule because it becomes the only way defenders can stop players like Mbappe and Haaland, he basically said if you start giving them the benefit then there’s almost nothing left for defenders to have against players that are that good and fast. I see cynical fouling as the sort of flip side of that, where it’s become too much of an advantage for defenders and a disadvantage for the attacker, I’d be happy to at least see it tried and to see if it prevents cynical play.

I’ve already said, I’m not in favour of it for dissent, a yellow for dissent is fine and if they’re so bothered by it just give more out. I don’t even think dissent is that bad in the league anymore. Maybe it is abroad but the days of Terry and co hounding refs all over the field are long gone.

[Fromola]

Since they introduced the monstrosity of VAR, it's destroyed refereeing. It wasn't great anyway but it's just created layers of confusion, indecisiveness and inconsistency beyond what was there 5 years ago. Now they want to keep bringing more and more changes. As Klopp essentially said none of their ideas have been good.

They should be rolling back, not doubling down on it to try and ease the mess they've created.

[Fromola]

Never refereed a game in my life. Just noticed that certain things have crept into the game and become more commonplace.

I read an interview with Wenger a while ago and he talked about how they didn’t want to alter things like the offside rule because it becomes the only way defenders can stop players like Mbappe and Haaland, he basically said if you start giving them the benefit then there’s almost nothing left for defenders to have against players that are that good and fast. I see cynical fouling as the sort of flip side of that, where it’s become too much of an advantage for defenders and a disadvantage for the attacker, I’d be happy to at least see it tried and to see if it prevents cynical play.

I’ve already said, I’m not in favour of it for dissent, a yellow for dissent is fine and if they’re so bothered by it just give more out. I don’t even think dissent is that bad in the league anymore. Maybe it is abroad but the days of Terry and co hounding refs all over the field are long gone.

Things like time wasting and dissent are for the referee on the pitch to manage. The nonsense of 10-15 minutes injury time because the ref can't officiate a game properly is ludicrous.

[Mister Flip Flop]

It's no wonder Jurgen is walking away from this league. The absolute state of it.

[Solomon Grundy]

I'm hearing it's now being put on hold due to the massive backlash it's received. Hopefully, it never comes into place.

[No666]

If they put the time and effort into training referees that they put into dreaming up new systems to mitigate bad refereeing, it would all be a lot simpler.

[jillcwhomever]

Only idiots would bring something like this in as the season approaches the real run in. It was stupid timing.

[TSC]

Likely been said already, but the ‘offending’ team would likely plonk 10 men behind the ball for 10mins.  It works generally in rugby but doubt it will in footie

[Fromola]

I'm hearing it's now being put on hold due to the massive backlash it's received. Hopefully, it never comes into place.

After the debacle of VAR people will be a lot less open to more interruption to the flow of matches.

[Crosby Nick]

Only idiots would bring something like this in as the season approaches the real run in. It was stupid timing.

It’s at a lower level for now but surely they won’t implement anything on the top flight this season will they!

[SamLad]

It’s at a lower level for now but surely they won’t implement anything on the top flight this season will they!

of course not.  no idea why jill posted that.

[Indomitable_Carp]

It seems mad to be seeking to introduce sin bins and blue cards when they haven't actually tried, you know, dishing out yellows for dissent!

You see it a little bit more often now, but still not consistently. For me, the second any player screams angrily or runs up to get in a refs face, it should be a yellow. If the player is screaming while trying to contest being given a yellow, you give them a second yellow and fuck them off the pitch. Maybe give the captains dispensation to challenge what they deem a dodgy or contentious decision.

Meanwhile, players going down holding their heads have a mandatory off-pitch concussion check.

Do that for 4-5 games and you've wiped the problem out then and there.

Oh, and fuck off VAR please. Unrelated but throwing it out there. Blue cards can get in the bin.

[classycarra]

It's no wonder Jurgen is walking away from this league. The absolute state of it.

It's IFAB (and the FA). Not the Premier League. It's why the FA cup is being touted as the place to test it