Topic: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?

[le_boss]

The players just don’t want to play for Klopp anymore.

[RedSamba]

The players just don’t want to play for Klopp anymore.

well if that's the case they can all fuck off 

[PaulKS]

FWIW

After 20 games in the what-seemed horrific COVID season, we had 37 points and were 4th

Southampton were 11th with 29 points

[Aeon]

A couple of quality additions in the midfield, extended resting, a good preseason and a couple of new Directors to replace the outgoing ones will make a huge difference next season.

I trust the people in charge on and off the pitch to get the team back on track. It is absolutely fine to have an off season after the success the club enjoyed the past several seasons under FSG and Klopp.

[Mr Grieves]

Too many of this current squad knew they were on the way out regardless of what happened this season. That,  coupled with the  huge the  disappointment of last year, unfortunate injuries,  poor squad investment and we’ve got this perfect storm.

 Still, if this is the price you have to pay for that away win at Villa, the Barcelona semi, absolutely crucifying the mancs at their own place, then fuck it it’s all been worth it.

We’ve been poor before, we’ve been absolutely sublime as well and will be again, let’s have a bit of patience.

[whiteboots]

Its a poor season with the imminent realistic prospect of a home defeat by Everton and an EC exit.

But Klipperty will get it right,  just give him time.

[muszka]

The players just don’t want to play for Klopp anymore.

So the solution is simple. Fire every single one that doesn't want to play for him.

[Solomon Grundy]

Its a poor season with the imminent realistic prospect of a home defeat by Everton and an EC exit.

But Klipperty will get it right,  just give him time.

Always amusing to see rival fans crawl out the woodwork when the reds are going through a bad time.

[Draex]

Since christmas I am learning that rock bottom has many levels.

[JerseyKloppite]

Always amusing to see rival fans crawl out the woodwork when the reds are going through a bad time.

He can take some time off.

[Red46]

I think it's worth reminding ourselves that over the last 6 years we have won every trophy in the game, some genuinely big clubs like Spurs, Everton, Newcastle, Leeds etc etc haven't won a trophy in decades, yes we are going through a particularly bad run atm but we have got the best pound for pound manager in the game and when we get everyone back from injury we will improve, more importantly in the likes of Alisson, Trent, Konate, Diaz, Nunez etc + some very promising youngsters we have the foundations of a second great Klopp LFC side that will compete for the biggest prizes in the game over the next 6 years.

[Aeon]

I think it's worth reminding ourselves that over the last 6 years we have won every trophy in the game, some genuinely big clubs like Spurs, Everton, Newcastle, Leeds etc etc haven't won a trophy in decades, yes we are going through a particularly bad run atm but we have got the best pound for pound manager in the game and when we get everyone back from injury we will improve, more importantly in the likes of Alisson, Trent, Konate, Diaz, Nunez etc + some very promising youngsters we have the foundations of a second great Klopp LFC side that will compete for the biggest prizes in the game over the next 6 years.

Totally agreed.

[kvarmeismydad]

Feels like a season out of Europe would do the squad some good. This alongside some good turnover and some fresh ambitious players with energy would give us a new base to build the next era. I just watched Newcastle v West Ham and the likes of Joelinton and Declan Rice really showed what we are missing. Just some brute force and running power that is committed to every second on the pitch. Rice seems an extremely positive and energetic lad off the pitch so people like that in the dressing room would really help.

This season just feels like we are pissing in the wind and the only positives I can look for is the development of the young lads, the return of the injured lads and some sort of sign that the club are sorting shit out behind the scenes.

[JerseyKloppite]

I'd be interested to know what posters' views are on our tactical flexibility.

It's extremely easy to criticise FSG, and the players. Being critical of Klopp and the coaching staff (in an honest, reflective way rather than a kneejerk "he's shit" way) is far less palatable because he's been brilliant for us, as a manager and a representative of the club and fans.

My query though is whether he's sufficiently tactically flexible to dig us out of the current hole. In my doubtlessly narrow view, Klopp's systems have been variations on a theme. High energy, high intensity, high press. A whole team working as one, utilising seemingly superhuman levels of fitness and resilience to recover the ball and attack again and again.

In his early years with us, sides were stupid enough to give us space to counter attack, and were brutally punished. Over time we've seen opposition increasingly utilise a "low block", and LFC try to unpick it. Even then, teams were wary of committing players forward because of our propensity to win the ball back and counter with pace and skill. As a result, our defence rarely came under any significant sustained pressure from the bulk of the sides we played in the league. And we could attack repeatedly until the quality of our creative players and forwards scored us a goal or two with little fear of being taken apart at the back.

An exception to this was our weak run in 2020/2021 when we lost our aura and our energy. Key players unavailable in defence and midfield, so teams had a go, with real success. We manage to put a run of form together and get over the line, but even then I recall real surprise at our reluctance to try something different tactically when we were lining up with Phillips and Rhys Williams at CB. The game against Villa was the most notable example of this failing when we conceded 7, but there were others.

This season, we have the above problems but compounded. Injuries to key players, but also apparently a woeful lack of fitness. Without our press, without our runners, our system just doesn't work. Moreover, teams look increasingly comfortable bypassing our press by pinging long balls behind our high line. Any weaknesses in our defence are exploited, players are pulled left and right, and we look pathetically easy to score against. Worse still we look blunt in attack. For so long we decried injuries to our midfielders. Now they're mostly fit and we look as bad as ever.

You can point the finger at FSG and say we need new midfielders, and you'd be right to. But does this problem go deeper than this? Are these players that are burnt out? Are they unable, or worse unwilling, to play in the way that they're being asked to? Has the system simply been "found out" now?

I don't know the answer but I'm less convinced than I was that we're simply going to bounce back in August and that this was a blip. And I just don't know the answer to the question at the start of my post. If Klopp can't get the players we have to play to his system, or worse still his system has simply been found out and is no longer fit for purpose, can he come up with something new, potentially very different, to turn it around?

[muszka]

If I were Klopp I would have a serious conversations with owners at the beginning of the summer and said that I brought a lot of success to the club on a very low net spend but as the squad is too old there needs to be an overhaul and you either give me 300m to spend for a rebuild or I resign.

[please, I have my reasons for it but...]

I'd be interested to know what posters' views are on our tactical flexibility.

It's extremely easy to criticise FSG, and the players. Being critical of Klopp and the coaching staff (in an honest, reflective way rather than a kneejerk "he's shit" way) is far less palatable because he's been brilliant for us, as a manager and a representative of the club and fans.

My query though is whether he's sufficiently tactically flexible to dig us out of the current hole. In my doubtlessly narrow view, Klopp's systems have been variations on a theme. High energy, high intensity, high press. A whole team working as one, utilising seemingly superhuman levels of fitness and resilience to recover the ball and attack again and again.

In his early years with us, sides were stupid enough to give us space to counter attack, and were brutally punished. Over time we've seen opposition increasingly utilise a "low block", and LFC try to unpick it. Even then, teams were wary of committing players forward because of our propensity to win the ball back and counter with pace and skill. As a result, our defence rarely came under any significant sustained pressure from the bulk of the sides we played in the league. And we could attack repeatedly until the quality of our creative players and forwards scored us a goal or two with little fear of being taken apart at the back.

An exception to this was our weak run in 2020/2021 when we lost our aura and our energy. Key players unavailable in defence and midfield, so teams had a go, with real success. We manage to put a run of form together and get over the line, but even then I recall real surprise at our reluctance to try something different tactically when we were lining up with Phillips and Rhys Williams at CB. The game against Villa was the most notable example of this failing when we conceded 7, but there were others.

This season, we have the above problems but compounded. Injuries to key players, but also apparently a woeful lack of fitness. Without our press, without our runners, our system just doesn't work. Moreover, teams look increasingly comfortable bypassing our press by pinging long balls behind our high line. Any weaknesses in our defence are exploited, players are pulled left and right, and we look pathetically easy to score against. Worse still we look blunt in attack. For so long we decried injuries to our midfielders. Now they're mostly fit and we look as bad as ever.

You can point the finger at FSG and say we need new midfielders, and you'd be right to. But does this problem go deeper than this? Are these players that are burnt out? Are they unable, or worse unwilling, to play in the way that they're being asked to? Has the system simply been "found out" now?

I don't know the answer but I'm less convinced than I was that we're simply going to bounce back in August and that this was a blip. And I just don't know the answer to the question at the start of my post. If Klopp can't get the players we have to play to his system, or worse still his system has simply been found out and is no longer fit for purpose, can he come up with something new, potentially very different, to turn it around?

I had a similar conversation with a friend of mine about this after the 20-21 season ended. Felt that during the time when we lost our defenders, Klopp still stuck with the highline despite none of the available players playing defense had the capability of doing so whereas Pep realized that the condensed season will screw with his squad so he decided to go back to basics with his style.

There was no way to win the title that year, but I always thought we might have finished second, had Klopp adapted his style more to suit Nat, Rhys and Ozan Kabak. Right now though, the problem is that whatever plan b he tried isn't working either.

Today, he even said, he had no idea what the players were doing in the first half as that was completely different to what he told them to do.

[paddysour]

well if that's the case they can all fuck off 

Agreed entirely. If this were any other manager everyone would say they lost the dressing room. This lot isn't trying a leg. Not tracking runners, not giving the player on the ball options etc. It's the basics and they are gone when the players don't have faith in the manager anymore.

We need to back the manager and don't contribute to the pressure. Get to the summer and bin anyone who isn't fighting for their life on the pitch.

We've had a mass exodus off the pitch. If Klopp goes now and we hire the wrong manager they'll have too much power and if they mess up it'll set us back years.

Klopp is the best manager in the world, we need to keep him.

[carling]

Sometimes footy can be simple. Mane, Jota, Diaz and Van Dijk are much, much better players than the guys in their respective positions today.

Also hard to understate how much those forward players unsettled our opponents last season and made things a lot easier for our midfielders.

[kvarmeismydad]

I'd be interested to know what posters' views are on our tactical flexibility.

It's extremely easy to criticise FSG, and the players. Being critical of Klopp and the coaching staff (in an honest, reflective way rather than a kneejerk "he's shit" way) is far less palatable because he's been brilliant for us, as a manager and a representative of the club and fans.

My query though is whether he's sufficiently tactically flexible to dig us out of the current hole. In my doubtlessly narrow view, Klopp's systems have been variations on a theme. High energy, high intensity, high press. A whole team working as one, utilising seemingly superhuman levels of fitness and resilience to recover the ball and attack again and again.

In his early years with us, sides were stupid enough to give us space to counter attack, and were brutally punished. Over time we've seen opposition increasingly utilise a "low block", and LFC try to unpick it. Even then, teams were wary of committing players forward because of our propensity to win the ball back and counter with pace and skill. As a result, our defence rarely came under any significant sustained pressure from the bulk of the sides we played in the league.

An exception to this was our weak run in 2020/2021 when we lost our aura and our energy. Key players unavailable in defence and midfield, so teams had a go, with real success. We manage to put a run of form together and get over the line, but even then I recall real surprise at our reluctance to try something different tactically when we were lining up with Phillips and Rhys Williams at CB.

This season, we have the above problems but compounded. Injuries to key players, but also apparently a woeful lack of fitness. Without our press, without our runners, our system just doesn't work. Moreover, teams look increasingly comfortable bypassing our press by pinging long balls behind our high line. Any weaknesses in our defence are exploited, players are pulled left and right, and we look pathetically easy to score against. Worse still we look blunt in attack. For so long we decried injuries to our midfielders. Now they're mostly fit and we look as bad as ever.

You can point the finger at FSG and say we need new midfielders, and you'd be right to. But does this problem go deeper than this? Are these players that are burnt out? Are they unable, or worse unwilling, to play in the way that they're being asked to? Has the system simply been "found out" now?

I don't know the answer but I'm less convinced than I was that we're simply going to bounce back in August and that this was a blip. And I just don't know the answer to the question at the start of my post. If Klopp can't get the players we have to play to his system, or worse still his system has simply been found out and is no longer fit for purpose, can he come up with something new, potentially very different, to turn it around?

I think that's a fair question. It works when all the pieces make it work. I can't believe we let one CM get overran while the other two go walkies. Poor Bajcetic was facing three midfielders hunting as a pack and the gaps were so open. I genuinely can't believe it keeps happening. The midfield 3 should sit in a compact three closer together and plan to dominate the middle together. Once you win your battles you can look to break out when you nick the ball back. I heard Klopp mentioning being more compact recently and it just doesn't happen on the pitch. It's a strange one. Are the players just doing what they want or is it a tactical decision. Kieta was pulling out onto the touchline at times and it just doesn't make sense how expansive our shape is.

I'd like us to go more compact and deeper to stop conceeding so early and counter attacking with our pacey lads up front but I'm just an armchair coach so what do I know.

Whatever happens, it can't just keep being the same set up.

[12Kings]

I blame the owners, categorically.
The have got very lucky with Liverpool and have had very good people running the club… convincing Jurgen to manage us was massive. And that’s how a fortunes were made nothing else.

The infrastructural changes should have set the alarm bells in the spring last year. And the quite obvious leak in the autumn of a sale has certainly not helped things and to be honest internally they have probably all known about this maybe as early as the summer.

The sale and the future of the club… that’s the real distraction and it’s why I think we’re unravelling.

[deano2727]

I blame the owners, categorically.
The have got very lucky with Liverpool and have had very good people running the club… convincing Jurgen to manage us was massive. And that’s how a fortunes were made nothing else.

The infrastructural changes should have set the alarm bells in the spring last year. And the quite obvious leak in the autumn of a sale has certainly not helped things and to be honest internally they have probably all known about this maybe as early as the summer.

The sale and the future of the club… that’s the real distraction and it’s why I think we’re unravelling.

I disagree with this stance. It's easy to blame the owners. We don't have the same emotional ties to them as we do Klopp and the players. First we criticize the owners, then the players and then Klopp. Nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't mean that it's how it is.

Realistically, we have had some money to spend. The scouts, transfer nerds, coaches and Klopp made a call these are the players we need or want. They work out or they don't. We're a squad full of CL and PL winners, as well as other trophies. Whether it's mental and/or physical exhaustion, they've downed tools.

Blaming the owners is the easy way out without facing the reality of the situation. We've regressed as a club for various reasons.

That said, yes, I do want new owners. All the other clubs are outspending us and we're in need of a rebuild. We need probably close to a 350 million spend over the next 3-4 windows if we are to keep up. But I think it's disingenuous to solely blame the owners.

[G Richards]

It seems to me like there are lots of things wrong, and it has all come together to give us this season, so far.

I don’t like the amount of injuries we have. The midfield has been mismanaged to get to this point. Confidence is low. Key people are leaving the staff team. I’d like to see more money invested into the team too.

But the biggest thing wrong at the club is the uncertainty surrounding the owners. We are for sale, in whole or part. Once there is clarity on what is going to happen there, then the rest of the organization will have a chance to fall into alignment and be renewed and refreshed.

New owner. New DOF. I would actually go farther and see Klopp get a new number 2 as well. Ferguson was top dog for many years in a successful Man Utd era, but he changed his right hand man quite regularly. Presumably this kept things fresh for everyone, and then the players had new input and a new voice in training.

A fish rots from the head down. I’m not saying FSG are rotten, but if they do want out, they should get on with it, as the club is in limbo. In elite level football you are either moving forward and building it up, or you are going backwards. We have the look of the latter.

It’s not doom and gloom, as I am confident we can come good again, and I see the making of the next great Klopp team starting to emerge. But all these things will only happen with clarity from the top. Right now that’s up in the air, and so is the team.

[kennedy81]

I blame the owners, categorically.
The have got very lucky with Liverpool and have had very good people running the club… convincing Jurgen to manage us was massive. And that’s how a fortunes were made nothing else.

The infrastructural changes should have set the alarm bells in the spring last year. And the quite obvious leak in the autumn of a sale has certainly not helped things and to be honest internally they have probably all known about this maybe as early as the summer.

The sale and the future of the club… that’s the real distraction and it’s why I think we’re unravelling.

Totally agree. We've gone from being one of the best run clubs around to being a complete shambles behind the scenes, and the results of that are glaringly obvious every time we play. It's absolutely on the owners, the buck stops with them.
Getting players back from injury isn't fixing this.

[JerseyKloppite]

Totally agree. We've gone from being one of the best run clubs around to being a complete shambles behind the scenes, and the results of that are glaringly obvious every time we play. It's absolutely on the owners, the buck stops with them.
Getting players back from injury isn't fixing this.

I don't disagree with this, but I do wonder sometimes if the impact of corporate/ownership issues on the playing squad are exaggerated. FSG don't pick the team, or the tactics, or design the fitness routines etc. They are broadly responsible for the performance of the club, and knowing that they are actively looking to sell is unsettling, but as has been said above I just thing it's a bit of a cop out to say "this is because FSG are trying to sell up / FSG haven't invested enough" when we have a talented manager and a squad with a number of talented players. There's underperforming and underperforming, and a group of players who almost won the quadruple just over 6 months ago are now struggling for a top half place. We've been badly run for the last 12 months but I don't think Trent or Fabinho wake up every morning and turn up for training worrying about who is buying the club or when it's happening.

[ElDuderino]

The other side of the grass is owl coloured. Anyone who thinks getting rid of the greatest manager of our times is a good idea, what is the plan exactly?

[newterp]

The other side of the grass is owl coloured. Anyone who thinks getting rid of the greatest manager of our times is a good idea, what is the plan exactly?

No sane person thinks it's a good idea.

The only ones espousing this idea are 1) not really liverpool supporters, 2) supporters of other teams, or 3) media who love a good story.

[Ma Vie en Rouge]

well if that's the case they can all fuck off 

As can anyone supporting the idea.

The players are shattered, their confidence gone. They - as Virgil and others stated - needed reinforcements and didn't get them, because FSG won't support the best manager we could possibly have.

[JerseyKloppite]

The other side of the grass is owl coloured. Anyone who thinks getting rid of the greatest manager of our times is a good idea, what is the plan exactly?

I've not seen anyone seriously call for Klopp to be removed. It would be ludicrous, kneejerk and heap more uncertainty or an already dire situation. But that doesn't mean people can't question whether he's getting it right tactically at the moment.

[Coolie High]

I disagree with this stance. It's easy to blame the owners. We don't have the same emotional ties to them as we do Klopp and the players. First we criticize the owners, then the players and then Klopp. Nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't mean that it's how it is.

Realistically, we have had some money to spend. The scouts, transfer nerds, coaches and Klopp made a call these are the players we need or want. They work out or they don't. We're a squad full of CL and PL winners, as well as other trophies. Whether it's mental and/or physical exhaustion, they've downed tools.

Blaming the owners is the easy way out without facing the reality of the situation. We've regressed as a club for various reasons.

That said, yes, I do want new owners. All the other clubs are outspending us and we're in need of a rebuild. We need probably close to a 350 million spend over the next 3-4 windows if we are to keep up. But I think it's disingenuous to solely blame the owners.

The owners are the main blame, Klopp has had the team punching above its weight, so what if we get a couple transfers wrong? This is actually one of the major problems, we seem to be one of the only clubs who aren't allowed a bad transfer, just this month  spending 37m on Gakpo was wrong because we apparently didn't have funds for anyone else, while some of our rivals who have made far less money than us in recent years while also spending more, got two, 3 or 4 players.

We can't always be perfect in that regards, its just not possible.

[jillcwhomever]

I don't disagree with this, but I do wonder sometimes if the impact of corporate/ownership issues on the playing squad are exaggerated. FSG don't pick the team, or the tactics, or design the fitness routines etc. They are broadly responsible for the performance of the club, and knowing that they are actively looking to sell is unsettling, but as has been said above I just thing it's a bit of a cop out to say "this is because FSG are trying to sell up / FSG haven't invested enough" when we have a talented manager and a squad with a number of talented players. There's underperforming and underperforming.

That's forgetting though that players too are human and they will be aware of all the uncertainty that is currently gripping the club, say nothing of numerous changes in the medical teams. Some players bond with those people so the changes will have an affect on them. Now I entirely agree that we do have to find other on field solutions to our current situation and that is up to the manager and the players to find. But the players need to fire themselves up for the next month. But it does make me wonder if there is any longer communication between the owners, manager and by association the players. If there isn't it just sums up this whole mess we are currently in and would explain the leaks left, right and centre. Say nothing of the leaks which included team line-ups.

[Knight]

So the solution is simple. Fire every single one that doesn't want to play for him.

That’s not a solution and there’s no point saying it like it is. If we fired hundreds of millions of £ worth of assets and got nothing in return we’d be totally screwed without an oil state sportwasher.

[deano2727]

It's a load of shite anyway. It's not that they don't want to play for Klopp, or that he has lost the dressing room. It's the fact that they've played to the upper limits of what we've ever seen in this sport almost consistently for years. It's the fact we don't have near as much to show for it as we should if there wasn't a state funded team in the league (now two). It's the fact we played every single possible game last year and ended up disappointed after going close to having the most successful season ever in football. Or how about the injury ravaged squad.

Honestly, a lot of it is on the players, but you can hardly blame them taking the above into consideration.

[kennedy81]

I don't disagree with this, but I do wonder sometimes if the impact of corporate/ownership issues on the playing squad are exaggerated. FSG don't pick the team, or the tactics, or design the fitness routines etc. They are broadly responsible for the performance of the club, and knowing that they are actively looking to sell is unsettling, but as has been said above I just thing it's a bit of a cop out to say "this is because FSG are trying to sell up / FSG haven't invested enough" when we have a talented manager and a squad with a number of talented players. There's underperforming and underperforming, and a group of players who almost won the quadruple just over 6 months ago are now struggling for a top half place. We've been badly run for the last 12 months but I don't think Trent or Fabinho wake up every morning and turn up for training worrying about who is buying the club or when it's happening.

That's not how it works though. Behind every successful team is a hugely complex machine with all kinds of aspects from data analysis, research, recruitment, sports science etc. If all those parts aren't functioning to their maximum capacity, you will not be able to compete with the clubs where they are working properly. It's that simple. Look at Man Utd this past decade. No manager, or set of players, or tactics,  or coaches will get you there on their own. I'm not saying Fabinho is worrying about FSG selling the club or whatever. I'm saying the whole system of support the team has depended on to be able to compete has not been up to scratch lately.

When the team was doing well, we all heard about how it was down to the people behind the scenes as well as the team and manager. So how can it just be on the players and coaching staff when the team is doing badly? Our recruitment has been a mess the past couple of seasons. When was the last time we signed a Mane, or a Salah, or a Wijnaldum or even a Matip or a Robertson? We're not being smart in the transfer market any more and it's caught up with us. Fuck knows what else is going on that we're not privy to. Who is doing Mike Gordon's job while he's focusing on getting investment in? Why is Ward leaving after a year in the job and who is his replacement?
Why is Ian Graham, the club’s director of research leaving in May? Ward, Edwards and Graham were key people who had a huge hand in our recent success. The whole data analysis/recruitment side of things has been gutted and then we wonder why clubs like Brighton are stealing a march on us in the transfer market.

All this is only symptomatic of a wider malaise which can only come from the top. It can't be just coincidence that these departures have happened at the same time, and who knows what other aspects of the club have been affected by this rot. Given the players performances and lack of fitness this season, it's obvious the rot has not just been confined to recruitment.

[MonsLibpool]

It's a load of shite anyway. It's not that they don't want to play for Klopp, or that he has lost the dressing room. It's the fact that they've played to the upper limits of what we've ever seen in this sport almost consistently for years. It's the fact we don't have near as much to show for it as we should if there wasn't a state funded team in the league (now two). It's the fact we played every single possible game last year and ended up disappointed after going close to having the most successful season ever in football. Or how about the injury ravaged squad.

Honestly, a lot of it is on the players, but you can hardly blame them taking the above into consideration.

They could have easily given up when we came second with 97 points or when we lost against Madrid in 2018. The hunger is just not there anymore.

[Fromola]

Agreed entirely. If this were any other manager everyone would say they lost the dressing room. This lot isn't trying a leg. Not tracking runners, not giving the player on the ball options etc. It's the basics and they are gone when the players don't have faith in the manager anymore.

We need to back the manager and don't contribute to the pressure. Get to the summer and bin anyone who isn't fighting for their life on the pitch.

We've had a mass exodus off the pitch. If Klopp goes now and we hire the wrong manager they'll have too much power and if they mess up it'll set us back years.

Klopp is the best manager in the world, we need to keep him.

I think it's just one of them where a manager has been in a long time and the players just aren't responding to that same voice anymore, at the same time where everything else at the club has gone to shit.

You could sack him tomorrow and probably get a new manager bounce as a result. However, Klopp is our only real chance of competing again any time soon, problem is we've got to get through this season first.

[Knight]

We didn’t lose to a sport washer in the CL. We got schooled by a team who has our number right now. The idea they’ve lost the plot because we came close to winning some trophies is a nonsense. We also won 2 cups last year. We’ve won everything there is to win. Some of the players aren’t up to it anymore, Klopp failed to recognise where they were at, some new signings don’t look good enough, we haven’t refreshed the squad anywhere near enough over the past 5 years. We’ve been consistently a year too slow to sort the defence the attack and now the midfield. The attack we got away with it because Firmino mane and Salah were bulletproof in 19/20 until we’d won the league. The defence and the midfield though… not so much. That’s why we’re where we’re at, amongst other reasons, not the players losing it mentally because they almost won the league.

[Fromola]

We didn’t lose to a sport washer in the CL. We got schooled by a team who has our number right now. The idea they’ve lost the plot because we came close to winning some trophies is a nonsense. We also won 2 cups last year. We’ve won everything there is to win. Some of the players aren’t up to it anymore, Klopp failed to recognise where they were at, some new signings don’t look good enough, we haven’t refreshed the squad anywhere near enough over the past 5 years. We’ve been consistently a year too slow to sort the defence the attack and now the midfield. The attack we got away with it because Firmino mane and Salah were bulletproof in 19/20 until we’d won the league. The defence and the midfield though… not so much. That’s why we’re where we’re at, amongst other reasons, not the players losing it mentally because they almost won the league.

The recruitment is far too lax and reactive and the owners haven't backed Klopp anywhere near enough. Klopp has made mistakes but who doesn't? FSG's model requires him to be perfect and get everything right.

[JerseyKloppite]

That's not how it works though. Behind every successful team is a hugely complex machine with all kinds of aspects from data analysis, research, recruitment, sports science etc. If all those parts aren't functioning to their maximum capacity, you will not be able to compete with the clubs where they are working properly. It's that simple. Look at Man Utd this past decade. No manager, or set of players, or tactics,  or coaches will get you there on their own. I'm not saying Fabinho is worrying about FSG selling the club or whatever. I'm saying the whole system of support the team has depended on to be able to compete has not been up to scratch lately.

When the team was doing well, we all heard about how it was down to the people behind the scenes as well as the team and manager. So how can it just be on the players and coaching staff when the team is doing badly? Our recruitment has been a mess the past couple of seasons. When was the last time we signed a Mane, or a Salah, or a Wijnaldum or even a Matip or a Robertson? We're not being smart in the transfer market any more and it's caught up with us. Fuck knows what else is going on that we're not privy to. Who is doing Mike Gordon's job while he's focusing on getting investment in? Why is Ward leaving after a year in the job and who is his replacement?
Why is Ian Graham, the club’s director of research leaving in May? Ward, Edwards and Graham were key people who had a huge hand in our recent success. The whole data analysis/recruitment side of things has been gutted and then we wonder why clubs like Brighton are stealing a march on us in the transfer market.

All this is only symptomatic of a wider malaise which can only come from the top. It can't be just coincidence that these departures have happened at the same time, and who knows what other aspects of the club have been affected by this rot. Given the players performances and lack of fitness this season, it's obvious the rot has not just been confined to recruitment.

This is an excellent post, but I do still think it only goes part way to explaining why we've been so poor. As has been said elsewhere it's a perfect storm this season. We've problems all over the place, from the board room to recruitment to coaching to tactics to fitness to the players. Hopefully we can go into next season with a lot of those issues resolved.

[Knight]

I'd be interested to know what posters' views are on our tactical flexibility.

It's extremely easy to criticise FSG, and the players. Being critical of Klopp and the coaching staff (in an honest, reflective way rather than a kneejerk "he's shit" way) is far less palatable because he's been brilliant for us, as a manager and a representative of the club and fans.

My query though is whether he's sufficiently tactically flexible to dig us out of the current hole. In my doubtlessly narrow view, Klopp's systems have been variations on a theme. High energy, high intensity, high press. A whole team working as one, utilising seemingly superhuman levels of fitness and resilience to recover the ball and attack again and again.

In his early years with us, sides were stupid enough to give us space to counter attack, and were brutally punished. Over time we've seen opposition increasingly utilise a "low block", and LFC try to unpick it. Even then, teams were wary of committing players forward because of our propensity to win the ball back and counter with pace and skill. As a result, our defence rarely came under any significant sustained pressure from the bulk of the sides we played in the league. And we could attack repeatedly until the quality of our creative players and forwards scored us a goal or two with little fear of being taken apart at the back.

An exception to this was our weak run in 2020/2021 when we lost our aura and our energy. Key players unavailable in defence and midfield, so teams had a go, with real success. We manage to put a run of form together and get over the line, but even then I recall real surprise at our reluctance to try something different tactically when we were lining up with Phillips and Rhys Williams at CB. The game against Villa was the most notable example of this failing when we conceded 7, but there were others.

This season, we have the above problems but compounded. Injuries to key players, but also apparently a woeful lack of fitness. Without our press, without our runners, our system just doesn't work. Moreover, teams look increasingly comfortable bypassing our press by pinging long balls behind our high line. Any weaknesses in our defence are exploited, players are pulled left and right, and we look pathetically easy to score against. Worse still we look blunt in attack. For so long we decried injuries to our midfielders. Now they're mostly fit and we look as bad as ever.

You can point the finger at FSG and say we need new midfielders, and you'd be right to. But does this problem go deeper than this? Are these players that are burnt out? Are they unable, or worse unwilling, to play in the way that they're being asked to? Has the system simply been "found out" now?

I don't know the answer but I'm less convinced than I was that we're simply going to bounce back in August and that this was a blip. And I just don't know the answer to the question at the start of my post. If Klopp can't get the players we have to play to his system, or worse still his system has simply been found out and is no longer fit for purpose, can he come up with something new, potentially very different, to turn it around?

Klopp is essentially quite conservative. He trusts certain players and he trusts the system and tactics he knows.

[didi shamone]

I'm genuinely starting to think that there's something wrong from a physical conditioning aspect. To have so many players whose legs have completely gone at the same time is bizarre, not to mention the constant injury crisis. And it's not just the over 30s. The likes of Robbo Trent, and obviously Fabinho can't have all lost a step.
They've had more time to recover than many players on other teams and have a track record of coming back stronger after set backs. Virtually every team runs more and appear sharper to first and second balls.
Unless there's some giant collective malaise that's set in???
Obviously new athletic midfielders would shift momentum but our problems run deeper.