Poll

What are your views on Kier Starmer's leadership of the Labour party to date?

Excellent
5 (1.9%)
Good
33 (12.7%)
Average
88 (34%)
Poor
46 (17.8%)
Awful
69 (26.6%)
Too early to say
18 (6.9%)

Total Members Voted: 259

Author Topic: Keir Starmer: your views?  (Read 109641 times)

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1760 on: October 21, 2021, 05:10:54 pm »
Is there anyone on this forum who doesn't think David Amess's murder was revolting?

I wouldn't think so. Why?
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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1761 on: October 21, 2021, 06:20:20 pm »
Starmer said this in an interview with the Daily Record today:

Quote
“Nicola Sturgeon's handling of the pandemic hasn't been, if you look at the relative numbers, has not been better than Johnson's.

“She may have communicated differently, but actually when you look at it, whether it's on the number of deaths, proportion of deaths, the inequalities that have been exposed by it, or test and protect....again [it] has been a failure.”

Meanwhile:

Whole Pandemic: Cases by area per 100,000 people:

    Scotland: 11,254.7

    Wales: 12,881.6

    England: 12,915.7

    Northern Ireland: 13,843.1

Whole Pandemic: Deaths within 28 days of positive test by area (Rate per 100,000 population):

    Northern Ireland: 139.0

    Scotland: 164.3

    Wales: 190.9

    England: 214.6

Whole Pandemic: Deaths with COVID-19 on the death certificate by area (per 100,000):

    Northern Ireland: 184.6

    Scotland: 205.7

    England: 244.8

    Wales: 264.1

Whole Pandemic: Vaccinations (1st/2nd):

    Scotland: 78.6%/71.1%

    Wales: 76.3%/70.6%

    England: 73.3%/67.3%

    Northern Ireland: 69.6%/65.1%

He's very silent on Labour ran Wales' record. I get that this is politics, and of course the Scottish Government should be scrutinised, but it needs to be grounded in some kind of reality or it will be immediately dismissed.

But I don't think this is aimed at the Scottish electorate.

Offline Zeb

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1762 on: October 21, 2021, 06:33:40 pm »
"Marginalise trans nutjobs" - yeah, fuck identity politics, you woke bastards

with a "Midlands woman" - yeah, fuck id...huh?!

The Leave campaign was full of poshos and/or people from the South East.

He knows a specific audience to pitch to and sets out how to pitch to it. But (and I've not read the blog) it seems overfocused on that slice of the electorate although perhaps that's because it's the only one he knows. Labour morphing into UKIP is a fascinating idea but not one which would be successful short or long term.

---

Kantar had a weird but much quoted poll the other week dating back some time. This seems more in tune with the general trend of Labour closing the gap this autumn.

CON: 39% (-4)
LAB: 34% (+4)
LDM: 8% (-3)
GRN: 8% (+2)
SNP: 5% (+1)
RFM: 2% (-1)

Kantar, 14-18 Oct.
Changes w/ 23-27 Sep.

https://www.kantarpublic.com/inspiration/thought-leadership/two-in-five-britons-report-that-their-household-income-has-fallen-behind-the-cost-of-living
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1763 on: October 21, 2021, 06:38:24 pm »
Dominic Cummings
@Dominic2306
How could Labour win? Replace dud 'dead player' Starmer with Midlands woman who can build a team & focus on target voters in marginal seats - disconnect Tories from power by focus on violent crime & small business ecosystem, marginalise trans nutjobs et al

https://mobile.twitter.com/Dominic2306/status/1451147084237787143


It's an interesting thread


The only thing I find interesting about Cummings is that he is unable to talk about anyone he disagrees with without using childish insults.


What insight does that give us into his mind and sense of self…?
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
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Offline Sangria

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1764 on: October 21, 2021, 07:15:35 pm »
The only thing I find interesting about Cummings is that he is unable to talk about anyone he disagrees with without using childish insults.


What insight does that give us into his mind and sense of self…?

That he is an infantile pig who smells of wee?
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1765 on: October 21, 2021, 07:31:25 pm »
That he is an infantile pig who smells of wee?
;D
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline John C

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1766 on: October 21, 2021, 08:08:05 pm »
Who is Midlands woman?
Tells you everything you need to know about the prick doesn't it.

Offline Nobby Reserve

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1767 on: October 21, 2021, 08:44:34 pm »
"Marginalise trans nutjobs" - yeah, fuck identity politics, you woke bastards

with a "Midlands woman" - yeah, fuck id...huh?!

The Leave campaign was full of poshos and/or people from the South East.

There are intelligent people who support trans rights (for fully transitioned people) but rightly (IMO) express concerns about 'self identification' (not least for potential for abuse) who are demonised by a militant minority, and subjected to campaigns of hate (see Joanne Rowling or Rosie Duffield as exhibit 'A')

The people who do this are nutcases.
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Offline Nobby Reserve

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1768 on: October 21, 2021, 08:47:02 pm »
Tells you everything you need to know about the prick doesn't it.


He's a prick, sure, and a gobshite. But he's a prick and a gobshite who recognised the drivers of public opinion and manipulated that into a Brexit and Tory c*nt electoral win.
UNICEF: “Without UNRWA, we cannot distribute life-saving supplies, and banning this is a new way of killing children.

Offline John C

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1769 on: October 21, 2021, 09:01:25 pm »

He's a prick, sure, and a gobshite. But he's a prick and a gobshite who recognised the drivers of public opinion and manipulated that into a Brexit and Tory c*nt electoral win.
I could reply .....
a) that's not a lead to follow though is it;
or
b) is it possible it had more to do with the ex-leader of the opposition.


Offline Sheer Magnetism

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1770 on: October 21, 2021, 09:01:34 pm »
Cummings is right in that there's no way to engage with trans rights without alienating a substantial portion of the electorate, it's much easier to say you disagree with discrimination in all forms then introduce trans-friendly laws when you get into power. Ultimately, having a female-fronted party talking about violent crime and unequal taxation is a strategy designed to screw over the Tories, get that red wall back and win elections. I don't know if it would be enough, but does Labour actually have any coherent strategy right now? As someone who isn't a member, it certainly doesn't look like it.

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1771 on: October 21, 2021, 09:28:18 pm »
There are intelligent people who support trans rights (for fully transitioned people) but rightly (IMO) express concerns about 'self identification' (not least for potential for abuse) who are demonised by a militant minority, and subjected to campaigns of hate (see Joanne Rowling or Rosie Duffield as exhibit 'A')

The people who do this are nutcases.

And people who think the next Labour leader should be a woman because it's a box that's not been ticked yet, or that it alone will attract more voters to the party are (rightly IMO) viewed as nutty by some voters too. And by some voters, I largely mean the Brexity/Red Wall type that Labour are clearly focused on but then I'm not part of the Westminster commentariat like Cummings, so what do I know?

Offline Sangria

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1772 on: October 21, 2021, 09:34:46 pm »
And people who think the next Labour leader should be a woman because it's a box that's not been ticked yet, or that it alone will attract more voters to the party are (rightly IMO) viewed as nutty by some voters too. And by some voters, I largely mean the Brexity/Red Wall type that Labour are clearly focused on but then I'm not part of the Westminster commentariat like Cummings, so what do I know?

I think the next Labour leader should be a woman, but that's mainly because IMHO that's where the talent is.
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Offline RainbowFlick

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1773 on: October 21, 2021, 10:11:04 pm »
There are intelligent people who support trans rights (for fully transitioned people) but rightly (IMO) express concerns about 'self identification' (not least for potential for abuse) who are demonised by a militant minority, and subjected to campaigns of hate (see Joanne Rowling or Rosie Duffield as exhibit 'A')

The people who do this are nutcases.

what a load of rubbish. 'potential for abuse' is the BS TERFs write about in the Daily Mail and the Scum. who is transitioning to a trans man or woman to 'abuse' anything? it's just a nonsense moral panic people have created to hide their transphobia behind.

transitioning is a difficult process, expensive and has its risks. what exactly do you mean 'fully transitioned people'? do you know the cost of doing a top and bottom surgery?

very on brand for the da's of this thread to be straying into this area, alongside some even bizarrely thinking Cummings is some sort of example to fall behind. truly the strangest thread on RAWK.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 10:13:23 pm by RainbowFlick »
YNWA.

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1774 on: October 21, 2021, 10:21:28 pm »
I could reply .....
a) that's not a lead to follow though is it;
or
b) is it possible it had more to do with the ex-leader of the opposition.


I think he is basically saying that b is the problem for Labour.

But the new b isn’t doing much better than the old b (and the one before that) as they are all seen as London centric.

There’s probably something in that, but then again Johnson’s so London that he was actually mayor of London

So who knows
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline RainbowFlick

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1775 on: October 21, 2021, 10:27:15 pm »
I could reply .....
a) that's not a lead to follow though is it;
or
b) is it possible it had more to do with the ex-leader of the opposition.

Cummings and co (with the initial push of Frottage et al and swathes of the media) were successful in shifting the focus of certain types to immigration and the EU and creating their own little panic.

people were manipulated. it could've been Starmer as opposition but it would've been the same result. they have been successful in turning working-class people against people they should have more in common with than the Tories they elected whilst also making it seem like the 'south' is some sort of haven for the wealthy and elite.

i'd argue a lot of these people had these feelings simmering in them for quite some time. they might've been struggling and wanted somewhere to place blame and as per British people love blaming migrants. then they moved on to other culture wars to expand this hate: anti-BLM, anti 'woke', 'critical race theory' etc.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 10:30:40 pm by RainbowFlick »
YNWA.

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1776 on: October 21, 2021, 10:31:30 pm »
Cummings and co (with the initial push of Frottage et al and swathes of the media) were successful in shifting the focus of certain types to immigration and the EU.

people were manipulated. it could've been Starmer as opposition but it would've been the same result.
What exactly do you mean by manipulated?

I find myself flitting between thinking that long term media anti immigrant sentiment changed opinions on one hand, and on the other that many people always actually felt this way and the media focus would not have been successful but for their implicit agreement
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1777 on: October 21, 2021, 10:36:23 pm »
Some on here will need vapours when they find out what the voters Cummings is describing think about immigration.

He's writing a thought experiment which has the premise 'If the Labour party wasn't the Labour party then how would it win over these voters...'. (Or 'would socially conservative policy proposals appeal to socially conservative voters? oh my they would!'). Whether he realises that or not is something else but it's amusing that even on its own terms it wouldn't be enough for Labour to win an election (ie have a governing majority). So far as internal Labour party debate goes, see also Corbyn promising more police, Miliband's flirtation with Blue Labour, Blair and Brown's absolute mess on messaging about social security and on policy re. immigration. Labour. More socially conservative than most of us would want.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 10:39:05 pm by Zeb »
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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1778 on: October 21, 2021, 10:55:30 pm »
what a load of rubbish. 'potential for abuse' is the BS TERFs write about in the Daily Mail and the Scum. who is transitioning to a trans man or woman to 'abuse' anything? it's just a nonsense moral panic people have created to hide their transphobia behind.

transitioning is a difficult process, expensive and has its risks. what exactly do you mean 'fully transitioned people'? do you know the cost of doing a top and bottom surgery?

very on brand for the da's of this thread to be straying into this area, alongside some even bizarrely thinking Cummings is some sort of example to fall behind. truly the strangest thread on RAWK.


The 'potential for abuse' doesn't come from genuine trans people who have self-identified but not transitioned, but from men who could use the cover that declaring themselves trans would provide (ie, access to women's 'safe areas' like toilets/changing rooms/etc) to undertake nefarious activities for their own gratification.

Many/most women feel that way. Anyone who dismisses their fears and concerns from a viewpoint that 'trans rights' to self-identification trumps their fears/concerns is IMO tunnel-visioned.
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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1779 on: October 21, 2021, 10:59:39 pm »
Cummings and co (with the initial push of Frottage et al and swathes of the media) were successful in shifting the focus of certain types to immigration and the EU and creating their own little panic.

people were manipulated. it could've been Starmer as opposition but it would've been the same result. they have been successful in turning working-class people against people they should have more in common with than the Tories they elected whilst also making it seem like the 'south' is some sort of haven for the wealthy and elite.

i'd argue a lot of these people had these feelings simmering in them for quite some time. they might've been struggling and wanted somewhere to place blame and as per British people love blaming migrants. then they moved on to other culture wars to expand this hate: anti-BLM, anti 'woke', 'critical race theory' etc.

While that is possibly true, Corbyn turned many Remain voters against him and Labour and also managed in a stroke of genius to turn many Leave voters against him and Labour.

His weasly sitting-on-the-fence decision and privately doing speeches against Europe while publically kind of being 70% was it? for Europe alienated pretty much everyone.

If Brexit was a battle to be fought then Starmer I think would have gone all-in on Remain. Then it's a clear choice in any votes.

Vote Labour to stay in the EU. Vote Tory to leave.

If Leave won anyway then at least Brexit would be 100% on them.
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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1780 on: October 21, 2021, 11:12:47 pm »
While that is possibly true, Corbyn turned many Remain voters against him and Labour and also managed in a stroke of genius to turn many Leave voters against him and Labour.

His weasly sitting-on-the-fence decision and privately doing speeches against Europe while publically kind of being 70% was it? for Europe alienated pretty much everyone.

If Brexit was a battle to be fought then Starmer I think would have gone all-in on Remain. Then it's a clear choice in any votes.

Vote Labour to stay in the EU. Vote Tory to leave.

If Leave won anyway then at least Brexit would be 100% on them.


The Corbyn-Labour stance of ambiguity over Brexit (whether deliberate or just out cluelessness) worked alright in 2017, but was only ever going to be a one-shot tactic.

They officially adopted a confirmatory referendum policy for 2019 and lost a chunk of Leave voters, whilst Labour's manifesto and Corbyn's unpopularity with the electorate on the centre-left to centre-right meant Labour couldn't attract enough Remainers to vote for the party.
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1781 on: October 21, 2021, 11:54:33 pm »

The Corbyn-Labour stance of ambiguity over Brexit (whether deliberate or just out cluelessness) worked alright in 2017, but was only ever going to be a one-shot tactic.

They officially adopted a confirmatory referendum policy for 2019 and lost a chunk of Leave voters, whilst Labour's manifesto and Corbyn's unpopularity with the electorate on the centre-left to centre-right meant Labour couldn't attract enough Remainers to vote for the party.

This is right, on both counts.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1782 on: October 22, 2021, 12:20:41 am »
The 'Leave' voters not planning on voting Labour in 2019's election had already gone, what spurred the change to pushing for a referendum. Took McDonnell (well, initially his wife) to understand what was being carefully explained about the scale of the disaster ahead without doing it. The outcome for pushing Lexit was predicted to be even worse as animosity towards Corbyn was much greater among 'Leave' voters than 'Remain' ones. And with Remain ones it was enough to keep Tories from voting Lib Dem.

Weird balancing act along those faultlines though just within Corbynism, reflecting the country at large. Freedom of movement being removed as Labour policy turned into a loyalty vote to force it through as the old Lexiters and the younger progressives faced some of their differences. Not a surprise Labour vote as a whole was messy and why Labour now just don't want a fight on those exact lines again.
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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1783 on: October 22, 2021, 10:30:55 am »
Corbyn, as a brexiteer, leading the 'Remain' Labour party left only one resonable solution - abdication. But having waited so long for a leader from the 'left', for one to then abdicate looks like cowardice and failure so he couldn't/wouldn't go. He couldn't suddenly become a remainer as the press would have justifiably slaughtered him for opportunism (destroying his all important 'honest Joe' image). So we had the sitting on the fence approach, which he did quite well, if it wasn't for the fact that as ever, when you sit in the fence, both sides get sick of the sight of your arse.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1784 on: October 22, 2021, 12:38:05 pm »
Yougov now joining the trend observable some weeks back elsewhere.

Latest Westminster voting intention (20-21 Oct)

Con: 37% (-4 from 12-13 Oct)
Lab: 33% (+2)
Lib Dem: 9% (n/c)
Green: 10% (+2)
SNP: 5% (+1)
Reform UK: 4% (n/c)

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/10/21/voting-intention-con-37-lab-33-20-21oct

Greens over Lib Dems continues to be fascinating - obviously Labour switchers (as always to various degrees) in there but also potential Lib Dem voters in that mix which is different from, say, 2010. This is not a popular government, but then Labour are not a popular alternative (at least not yet).
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Offline CowboyKangaroo

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1785 on: October 22, 2021, 01:31:35 pm »
Who is Midlands woman?

Think its one of those Marvel films
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1786 on: October 22, 2021, 02:25:01 pm »
Was saying something similar in either this thread or the general politics thread a couple of months back - I don’t think all or even most of the people who voted for this government in 2019 did so with an enthusiasm for the Conservatives to remain in power, rather just either wanting to make Brexit a certainty or not wanting Corbyn or both.

Aye, and those issues are kind of proxies for others as well - older issues - or we'd have had a prime minister miliband.  Perceptions matter as much as substance at times etc etc. Kind of reminded of something Blair's been saying that the electorate compare a government to an ideal between elections but to the potential alternative when an election rolls around. Those who do want Labour in government probably should keep that in mind as and when Labour take a lead in the polls. The government may not be popular but that doesn't mean Labour are getting into power on the back of it without being first choice, or at least a neutral choice, to a big cross section of the country.
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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1788 on: October 23, 2021, 10:11:10 am »
Corbyn, as a brexiteer, leading the 'Remain' Labour party left only one resonable solution - abdication. But having waited so long for a leader from the 'left', for one to then abdicate looks like cowardice and failure so he couldn't/wouldn't go. He couldn't suddenly become a remainer as the press would have justifiably slaughtered him for opportunism (destroying his all important 'honest Joe' image). So we had the sitting on the fence approach, which he did quite well, if it wasn't for the fact that as ever, when you sit in the fence, both sides get sick of the sight of your arse.

Yep good post.

I blame Corbyn as much as Cameron for Brexit. Imagine for one moment if you had a capable, honest and decent man that could have fought it from the off. Imagine if Remain could have come out with all guns blazing and shown the racist, xenophobic fuckwits up for what they are.

As you said, as Corbyn was clearly a Brexiter (I've seen more than 20 impassioned speeches he gave against the EU) his 'honest' tag would have taken quite a kicking if he's made any effort at all.

As a result Leave had no real opposition from anywhere. And it went ahead and these inbred c*nts have fucked this country for the next half a fucking centry. Infuriating because as I said if there was actually someone honest, decent and capable, it didn't have to happen.
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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1789 on: October 23, 2021, 10:57:12 am »

I blame Corbyn as much as Cameron for Brexit. Imagine for one moment if you had a capable, honest and decent man that could have fought it from the off. Imagine if Remain could have come out with all guns blazing and shown the racist, xenophobic fuckwits up for what they are.

As you said, as Corbyn was clearly a Brexiter (I've seen more than 20 impassioned speeches he gave against the EU) his 'honest' tag would have taken quite a kicking if he's made any effort at all.

As a result Leave had no real opposition from anywhere. And it went ahead and these inbred c*nts have fucked this country for the next half a fucking centry. Infuriating because as I said if there was actually someone honest, decent and capable, it didn't have to happen.

This is right.

It was also the fact that this 'principled man' refused to come clean on where he stood on Brexit. His long record of voting against the EU and backing motions to withdraw from it showed where he stood as a backbencher. But as the leader of the Labour party he pretended to be 7 out of 10 for Europe. No one believed it. And he did nothing to make us believe it. As Doc Beaker said he "abdicated". When the pressure was on, and Remain needed leadership, he went on vacation.

It was the country's hard luck that the Labour party was led by a deserter during the referendum. Otherwise Remain would have won and we'd now be living in different times.

   
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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1790 on: October 23, 2021, 11:17:17 am »
https://mobile.twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1451497617427402754

Many of your posts are just links without any description.  Not sure about others, but I link to know what the general gist is before I click on a link.

Thanks.

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1791 on: October 23, 2021, 11:19:53 am »
This is right.



It was the country's hard luck that the Labour party was led by a deserter during the referendum. Otherwise Remain would have won and we'd now be living in different times.

   

I agree.

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1792 on: October 23, 2021, 11:44:39 am »
Dominic Cummings
@Dominic2306
How could Labour win? Replace dud 'dead player' Starmer with Midlands woman who can build a team & focus on target voters in marginal seats - disconnect Tories from power by focus on violent crime & small business ecosystem, marginalise trans nutjobs et al

https://mobile.twitter.com/Dominic2306/status/1451147084237787143


It's an interesting thread

The small business ecosytem point is right, people like people who work. Unfortunatley for some in Labour that means their main target is white van man. And all the trans stuff is a load of nonsense to the majority of the electorate, they are just not arsed, its a social media game on twitter feeding the frenzy.

Whats lacking most of all though is policy, and you need a target audience to set policy for, and the broadchurch spectrum of labour has now become a circle, and it just goes round and round and round.

And one thing, do you really think Rayner did any good with that remark. Do you want a politician in charge who can be that vitriolic over millions of people just because they have a different political view point, or in the case of the last election normal labour voters because they didnt like Corbyn. Those theiving tory bastards would have had a much greater impact.

Does anyone know the political leanings of the anti vaxxers?

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1793 on: October 23, 2021, 11:46:33 am »
https://mobile.twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1451497617427402754

You dont need to change the system, you just need to have some decent policies so people can vote for you.

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1794 on: October 23, 2021, 12:14:03 pm »
You dont need to change the system, you just need to have some decent policies so people can vote for you.

Disagree.  FPTP is the opposite of ‘Proportional’.  Previous elections have seen government returned with only 35% of the electorate voting for them (ironically the last successful Labour admin although Cameron’s in 2015 only had 37%).  That’s not representative.

https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/voting-systems/types-of-voting-system/first-past-the-post/

UK remains one of a handful to still have FPTP particularly compared with European nations.

https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/which-european-countries-use-proportional-representation/



Aside from that and with the state of play in Scotland it’s difficult to envisage anything but a Tory government for the foreseeable.  Okay for Tory voters I guess.  Only caveat is that the current administration make enough blunders so tables in England are completely turned.  Given their performance to date that may be a possibility.

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1795 on: October 23, 2021, 12:14:51 pm »
Many of your posts are just links without any description.  Not sure about others, but I link to know what the general gist is before I click on a link.

Thanks.

Noted.

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1796 on: October 23, 2021, 12:19:29 pm »
Disagree.  FPTP is the opposite of ‘Proportional’.  Previous elections have seen government returned with only 35% of the electorate voting for them (ironically the last successful Labour admin although Cameron’s in 2015 only had 37%).  That’s not representative.

https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/voting-systems/types-of-voting-system/first-past-the-post/

UK remains one of a handful to still have FPTP particularly compared with European nations.

https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/which-european-countries-use-proportional-representation/



Aside from that and with the state of play in Scotland it’s difficult to envisage anything but a Tory government for the foreseeable.  Okay for Tory voters I guess.  Only caveat is that the current administration make enough blunders so tables in England are completely turned.  Given their performance to date that may be a possibility.

The moment the opposition supports PR, the Tories will accuse them of wanting to change the rules because they can't win with the current ones, and call on the voters to defend British democracy. Which will win them votes.

Labour needs to win using FPTP, then change to PR in their second term. At the soonest.
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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1797 on: October 23, 2021, 12:36:58 pm »
The moment the opposition supports PR, the Tories will accuse them of wanting to change the rules because they can't win with the current ones, and call on the voters to defend British democracy. Which will win them votes.

Labour needs to win using FPTP, then change to PR in their second term. At the soonest.

Fair point and nothing will change this side of an election, although the counter obviously would be that PR is more representative.

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1798 on: October 23, 2021, 12:37:44 pm »
If this is true and I assume it is then PR would be a disaster for Labour.
I think we have to be very careful about what we wish for.

Proportional representation would spell disaster for Labour. Party members should reject it
PR would make Labour majorities all but impossible, yet give the Lib Dems a permanent foothold on power


Richard Johnson is a lecturer in politics at Queen Mary University of London

At Labour’s annual conference this week, a motion is to be put forward calling for the party to back proportional representation (PR) for the election of MPs to the House of Commons.

There are many philosophical arguments that can be made against PR. PR makes coalition governments the norm rather than the exception. It reduces the ability of a party to deliver on its manifesto promises. It gives disproportionate weight to small parties. It encourages a more transactional form of politics, based on post-election horse-trading. It produces a more fragmented, inward-looking form of politics, whereby parties no longer need to seek broad-based electoral support in order to achieve power.

These ideas are worth debating, but there is a more immediate reason why Labour should not support PR: it would be electorally catastrophic for the party. PR would mean the end of majority Labour governments and possibly the Labour party itself.

It is easy to understand why small parties want PR. The Greens, Liberal Democrats, Ukip, the Brexit party and the BNP have all been hard done by the current first-past-the-post (FPTP) system. The electoral rationale is far more puzzling for Labour. FPTP has unquestionably been to Labour’s advantage. In every postwar election, with the exception of the 1950s and 2019, Labour has received a greater share of House of Commons seats than its share of the popular vote. This boost has sometimes been very substantial, giving Labour majorities it would not otherwise have. Even in minority, Labour usually gets more MPs than its proportionate strength in the electorate.

While this may seem “unfair” to opponents of Labour, it is strange that the party would voluntarily opt to weaken its own power. It is sometimes said that Labour should support PR, whatever the electoral costs, because it is “the right thing to do”. This attitude fetishises process and ignores the importance of outcomes. The FPTP system in Britain gives a boost to the major party of the left, making leftwing majority governments possible where they might not otherwise be. Surely, at least to party members, electing Labour governments is also “the right thing to do”.

There is also the alternative to consider. PR will not deliver majority leftwing governments in Britain. Supporters of PR like to think it will produce governments of Labour, Greens and Nationalists, collectively ushering together an eco-socialist political programme. The problem is there are not enough votes to do this under PR.

With the exception of the remarkable 1945 election, the British public have never voted in a majority for leftwing parties. Adding together the votes of Labour, the Greens, the SNP and Plaid Cymru at every other general election has never amounted to more than 50% of the vote. This is not to say that leftwing governments are impossible under PR, but there is virtually no evidence from British election history that more than 50% of British voters are prepared to vote for leftwing parties.

PR would make one party very powerful indeed: the Liberal Democrats. In fact, if MPs were allocated proportionately, the Lib Dems (and the SDP and Liberals before them) would have decided nearly every single British government in postwar history.
While some commentators like to fantasise about the Lib Dems as left-of-centre fellow travellers, their recent record in government does not bear this out. When faced with the choice between giving the Conservatives a majority or supporting a Labour-led coalition in 2010, the Lib Dems opted for five years with the Conservatives, supporting some of the most vicious attacks to the British welfare state and public realm in recent history.

From a purely pragmatic view, Labour’s enchantment with PR makes little sense. From what we know about the British electorate, PR would eliminate the possibility of a future majority-Labour government. PR would not guarantee leftwing coalition governments either. What it would mean is the Lib Dems would effectively get to choose the prime minister after each election. You can understand why they are so keen, but why are Labour members?

Dr Richard Johnson is a lecturer in politics at Queen Mary University of London
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/27/proportional-representation-labour-party-lib-dems





You can tell his dad was a toolmaker. That’s an impressive cabinet he’s put together..

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #1799 on: October 23, 2021, 12:40:22 pm »
If this is true and I assume it is then PR would be a disaster for Labour.


PR is abou what is fair, not Labour's electoral prospects.