Topic: Keir Starmer: your views?

[Zeb]

Long read season. This time with Paul Waugh in the Huffpost talking to Starmer and his staff on their intentions.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/keir-starmer-summer-campaign-starts-the-long-battle-for-the-next-election_uk_610c8d39e4b0e28b31ded9db?zf=

Part which I think points towards a very different approach Starmer and his team have recognised they need is to do the local press. It's got the potential to be a mess (Johnson, May, and Corbyn have all taken the view they had more to lose than gain from doing anything but the most basic soundbites for local journalists) but it's still about being seen and recognised as a potential prime minister even if the policy detail isn't always pored over by anyone not on twitter.

Staff say that 18 months into the job, the main phrase the public associate with Starmer is “don’t know”. “That’s a problem but also an opportunity,” one says. “When you tell Keir’s story people warm to it. This idea he’s a posh lawyer, when in fact he comes from a humble background but he was knighted for fighting crime. If you were to put his biog next to Johnson’s, I do not doubt who you could most relate to.”

The summer campaign has been a way not just to meet voters but also to befriend and reassure regional media, spending time with them beyond the few minutes in front of a camera.

On a trip to Blackpool, he had fish and chips in downtime with local media at Harry Ramsden’s restaurant. On this week’s trip to Scotland, he had tea and cake with journalists for an hour in the rooftop Mackintosh cafe in Glasgow. “It’s about relationship building, letting people judge the real person,” one ally said. The South West is next week, then Wales later in the month.

See whether it's all enough to help make up some ground and perhaps even be a counterbalance to what be Starmer's own weaknesses. 'Here's the messenger, he's a decent man.'

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Long read season. This time with Paul Waugh in the Huffpost talking to Starmer and his staff on their intentions.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/keir-starmer-summer-campaign-starts-the-long-battle-for-the-next-election_uk_610c8d39e4b0e28b31ded9db?zf=

Part which I think points towards a very different approach Starmer and his team have recognised they need is to do the local press. It's got the potential to be a mess (Johnson, May, and Corbyn have all taken the view they had more to lose than gain from doing anything but the most basic soundbites for local journalists) but it's still about being seen and recognised as a potential prime minister even if the policy detail isn't always pored over by anyone not on twitter.

See whether it's all enough to help make up some ground and perhaps even be a counterbalance to what be Starmer's own weaknesses. 'Here's the messenger, he's a decent man.'

Not just a decent man.

His career has shown that he's also an effective man. A doer.

[Zeb]

Not just a decent man.

His career has shown that he's also an effective man. A doer.

For sure, although I think some of the questions being asked quietly, and not from those who thought Biden would lose the US election by a landslide, are whether those are the same skills as are needed to be an effective politician. All a bit looking for perfection all the same given what we know of how bad things have been for near a decade on even some of the things you'd hope would be at least learned over time doing the job.

[Bobsackamano]

One of the more insane proposals from the lunatic fringe, individual disciplinary matters being decided by members voting.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/aug/08/jeremy-corbyn-could-be-reinstated-as-labour-mp-under-leftwing-challenge-to-starmer

So all those who think the MP stuck his hand up that girls skirt and shouldnt be a Labour MP vote against his reinstatement, all those who think she's making it all up or if you dont think he deserves losing the whip for this vote for his reinstatement. Results will be announced later this afternoon!

[Zeb]

CLPD have been passing that motion round for an age. Seems a complex way to avoid dear Jez having to apologise on the record. Way wind is blowing internally in the party would be surprised if it did make it to the conference floor to even be voted on. Can't think of a better way to piss off most of the party than to pursue the idea of turning conference into mock trials for serious offences. The little point about the CLPD wanting to turn MPs into delegates is an old bone of contention. Think the NEC in Attlee's time tried it on (Yorky'd know) and his answer was short and the last word was 'off'.

[Yorkykopite]

CLPD have been passing that motion round for an age. Seems a complex way to avoid dear Jez having to apologise on the record. Way wind is blowing internally in the party would be surprised if it did make it to the conference floor to even be voted on. Can't think of a better way to piss off most of the party than to pursue the idea of turning conference into mock trials for serious offences. The little point about the CLPD wanting to turn MPs into delegates is an old bone of contention. Think the NEC in Attlee's time tried it on (Yorky'd know) and his answer was short and the last word was 'off'.

I don't think the NEC ever tried to turn Labour MPs into delegates in Attlee's time. That idea originated in the Bennite movement in the early 1980s. But on the eve of the Potsdam conference in 1945 the chairman of the NEC - the LSE political philosopher Harold Laski - told the press that the Labour party could not be bound by any decisions that Attlee was party to at Potsdam. The idea was that the supreme policy-making body of the Labour party was the NEC, not the PLP or the leadership.  Attlee's reaction was more or less what you said.

[Zeb]

I don't think the NEC ever tried to turn Labour MPs into delegates in Attlee's time. That idea originated in the Bennite movement in the early 1980s. But on the eve of the Potsdam conference in 1945 the chairman of the NEC - the LSE political philosopher Harold Laski - told the press that the Labour party could not be bound by any decisions that Attlee was party to at Potsdam. The idea was that the supreme policy-making body of the Labour party was the NEC, not the PLP or the leadership.  Attlee's reaction was more or less what you said.

Ta. That was it, yeah. Didn't think they were trying to go all '20s CPGB, just the idea of the NEC extending its authority into directing MPs on what to do.

[oldfordie]

Did anyone in the UK ever call left wingers "The Radical Left"  pre Trump. I know it's a description used in the US for decades but can't remember it being used in this country until a few years ago, AFAIR, in the past it was always the Extreme Left or Far Left.

[ianburns252]

Did anyone in the UK ever call left wingers "The Radical Left"  pre Trump. I know it's a description used in the US for decades but can't remember it being used in this country until a few years ago, AFAIR, in the past it was always the Extreme Left or Far Left.

To my memory it began maybe in 2014 but only became common a couple of years later - if I remember rightly it stemmed from people such as Owen Jones pushing for "more radical policies" and so became the term used.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Did anyone in the UK ever call left wingers "The Radical Left"  pre Trump. I know it's a description used in the US for decades but can't remember it being used in this country until a few years ago, AFAIR, in the past it was always the Extreme Left or Far Left.

Not an expert by any means, but I’ve heard the phrase a few times in books I’ve read.


Wilt (1976) - Tom Sharpe

Wilt classed himself with the Indifferents. In earlier years he had belonged to the Left politically and to the Right culturally. In other words he had banned the bomb, supported abortion and the abolition of private education and had been against capital punishment, thus earning himself something of a reputation as a radical while at the same time advocating a return to the craft of the wheelwright, the blacksmith and the handloom weaver which had done much to undermine the efforts of the Technical staff to instil in their students an appreciation of the opportunities provided by modern technology.


The Wilt Alternative (1979)

But Bilger was already out of the office and Wilt was left with the problem of finding some plausible excuse to offer the Committee. Not that he would have minded getting rid of Bilger but the idiot had a wife and three children and certainly couldn’t expect help from his father, Rear-Admiral Bilger. It was typical of that kind of intellectual radical buffoon that he came from what was known as ‘a good family’.



Also seen several references over the years. For instance, Citizen Smith;

The 1970s were certainly a time of seemingly never-ending industrial disputes, heavy discontent and disenchantment with the tiring older generation of British post-war politicians. Citizen Smith is a product of that period and echoes the 1970s ground-swell of frustration with politics[5]. Citizen Smith is far from the extremely sophisticated and elaborated anti-establishment cynicism and surrealism of Monty Python’s Flying Circus (1969-1974) but certainly draw on the same well-established British tradition of parody, sarcasm and irony that gave the British public permission to laugh at others and at themselves regarding British history and politics (Blackadder, Yes Minister), class divisions (Butterflies), WWII (Dad’s Army) and, last but not least, revolution, radical left and urban guerrilla (Citizen Smith).




So 'radical left' has been around since at least the 70s and featured in several fiction books I'd read around the time.

[Red Beret]

Did anyone in the UK ever call left wingers "The Radical Left"  pre Trump. I know it's a description used in the US for decades but can't remember it being used in this country until a few years ago, AFAIR, in the past it was always the Extreme Left or Far Left.

The term "Looney Left" was used quite a bit in the 80s.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Not an expert by any means, but I’ve heard the phrase a few times in books I’ve read.


Wilt (1976) - Tom Sharpe

Wilt classed himself with the Indifferents. In earlier years he had belonged to the Left politically and to the Right culturally. In other words he had banned the bomb, supported abortion and the abolition of private education and had been against capital punishment, thus earning himself something of a reputation as a radical while at the same time advocating a return to the craft of the wheelwright, the blacksmith and the handloom weaver which had done much to undermine the efforts of the Technical staff to instil in their students an appreciation of the opportunities provided by modern technology.


The Wilt Alternative (1979)

But Bilger was already out of the office and Wilt was left with the problem of finding some plausible excuse to offer the Committee. Not that he would have minded getting rid of Bilger but the idiot had a wife and three children and certainly couldn’t expect help from his father, Rear-Admiral Bilger. It was typical of that kind of intellectual radical buffoon that he came from what was known as ‘a good family’.


Also seen several references over the years. For instance, Citizen Smith;

The 1970s were certainly a time of seemingly never-ending industrial disputes, heavy discontent and disenchantment with the tiring older generation of British post-war politicians. Citizen Smith is a product of that period and echoes the 1970s ground-swell of frustration with politics[5]. Citizen Smith is far from the extremely sophisticated and elaborated anti-establishment cynicism and surrealism of Monty Python’s Flying Circus (1969-1974) but certainly draw on the same well-established British tradition of parody, sarcasm and irony that gave the British public permission to laugh at others and at themselves regarding British history and politics (Blackadder, Yes Minister), class divisions (Butterflies), WWII (Dad’s Army) and, last but not least, revolution, radical left and urban guerrilla (Citizen Smith).


So 'radical left' has been around since at least the 70s and featured in several fiction books I'd read around the time.

The first two quotes do not utilise the phrase 'radical left', and the third quote is from a blog in 2016:

http://explosivepolitics.com/blog/freedom-for-tooting-self-professed-urban-guerrilla-in-a-1970s-bbc-sitcom/

It may be argued that there were equivalent phrases to 'radical left' in use in the UK for many decades. But clearly Oldfordie was referencing that some on the right in UK political discourse have borrowed the American phrase of 'radical left' and the questions is: why?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

The first two quotes do not utilise the phrase 'radical left', and the third quote is from a blog in 2016:

http://explosivepolitics.com/blog/freedom-for-tooting-self-professed-urban-guerrilla-in-a-1970s-bbc-sitcom/

It may be argued that there were equivalent phrases to 'radical left' in use in the UK for many decades. But clearly Oldfordie was referencing that some on the right in UK political discourse have borrowed the American phrase of 'radical left' and the questions is: why?

If you're read the books then it's very clear that the author is refererring to the left in both instances.

As his writing (to me) appears to be fairly right-wing, this shows that the term to those right leaning was available in the 70s - I quite like his books as they allude to and discuss the politics of the era while usually wrapping the story into implausible farce and comedy.

[Yorkykopite]

If you're read the books then it's very clear that the author is refererring to the left in both instances.

As his writing (to me) appears to be fairly right-wing, this shows that the term to those right leaning was available in the 70s

I think it's the precise term 'Radical Left' that is in question Andy, not the general concept.

I also think it's a fairly new phrase, although the first edition of this book, https://www.routledge.com/The-Radical-Left-in-Britain-1931-1941/Jupp/p/book/9781138984486, was published in 1982.

As Oldfordie said, the most common expressions were once 'Far' or 'Extreme' rather than 'Radical'. I'd add 'Revolutionary' (as opposed to 'Reformist') or 'Fundamentalist' (as opposed to 'Revisionist'), which was used a lot on the 1950s. 'Radical' had rather different connotations in Britain than America. There was always a positive vibe to the word over here. Remember how Blair claimed to have carved out the 'Radical Centre'. And Radicalism itself, as a political movement, used to be a wing of the old late-19th century/early 20th century Liberal party. It embraced capitalism, but was known mainly for advocating social reform, old-age pensions, land taxes, reform of the House of Lords, and international institutions to make European war less likely.

[oldfordie]

I think it's the precise term 'Radical Left' that is in question Andy, not the general concept.

I also think it's a fairly new phrase, although the first edition of this book, https://www.routledge.com/The-Radical-Left-in-Britain-1931-1941/Jupp/p/book/9781138984486, was published in 1982.

As Oldfordie said, the most common expressions were once 'Far' or 'Extreme' rather than 'Radical'. I'd add 'Revolutionary' (as opposed to 'Reformist') or 'Fundamentalist' (as opposed to 'Revisionist'), which was used a lot on the 1950s. 'Radical' had rather different connotations in Britain than America. There was always a positive vibe to the word over here. Remember how Blair claimed to have carved out the 'Radical Centre'. And Radicalism itself, as a political movement, used to be a wing of the old late-19th century/early 20th century Liberal party. It embraced capitalism, but was known mainly for advocating social reform, old-age pensions, land taxes, reform of the House of Lords, and international institutions to make European war less likely.

Thanks for replies all helpful. it's something ive been thinking about for a while now.
Not so sure if the phrase Radical Left only started getting used in the US recently though but Yorkie may well be right, I was thinking McCarthyism never really went away in the US it was just toned down, the Commies finger pointing just got changed to the Radical Left but there was no doubt over what Radical Left meant, Commies.

It's the subtle subconscious tactics used by the right to influence both right wing and left wing supporters. great point by Yorkie, the word Radical is something many people in the UK view as positive while the US fear the word as it brings up images of radical left wing polices ruining the country. is the phrase Radical Left viewed as a positive in the UK though. Radical yes.
Ive heard a few people in the UK using the phrase over the last year including right and left wingers. I can understand the right wingers using the phrase as they fear the left, left wingers using the phrase are playing into the rights hands.

[Dr. Beaker]

We need a good scary term for the extreme right wingers that are the real danger to the vast majority of 'good hard working families' in this country. Probably most people don't know what the radical left is or even know what the word 'radical' means - and care even less. But an easy to understand term for the ultratoffs would do the cause the world of good.

[Jiminy Cricket]

We need a good scary term for the extreme right wingers that are the real danger to the vast majority of 'good hard working families' in this country. Probably most people don't know what the radical left is or even know what the word 'radical' means - and care even less. But an easy to understand term for the ultratoffs would do the cause the world of good.

I like the term 'Christianists' for this.

[oldfordie]

We need a good scary term for the extreme right wingers that are the real danger to the vast majority of 'good hard working families' in this country. Probably most people don't know what the radical left is or even know what the word 'radical' means - and care even less. But an easy to understand term for the ultratoffs would do the cause the world of good.

Great idea, Tory party or right wingers doesn't damage their reputation in the slightest.
Ive genuinely looked at this Tory party today as nothing more than a bunch of Cowboy builders.
Full of lies, promise you the earth without ever delivering, absolutely clueless when it comes to doing the job. full of excuses to fob off your complaints when things go drastically wrong.
The Cowboy builders is a name they deserve.

[Yorkykopite]

The Cowboy builders is a name they deserve.

That's not bad at all.

[Dr. Beaker]

Yep, well done Oldie, simple and effective and understood by all!

[Wilmo]

The left of this country should gather around one thing: a transition to new forms of energy. Jobs, communities, opportunities. Rework Corbyn's proposal of a NES into state funded re-training for every worker in the fossil fuel industry.

This change will inevitably happen. We will have to turn 100% to new forms of energy. Let's get ahead of it - become industry, World leaders in the field. If we're to have a hope in these post-Brexit times (until we inevitably re-join in 20 years) we need something to gather around, create communities around. This is the worst crisis facing us; facing it head on is our greatest opportunity.

[Elmo!]

The left of this country should gather around one thing: a transition to new forms of energy. Jobs, communities, opportunities. Rework Corbyn's proposal of a NES into state funded re-training for every worker in the fossil fuel industry.

This will inevitably happen. We will have to turn 100% to this form of energy. Let's get ahead of it - become industry, World leaders in the field. If we're to have a hope in these post-Brexit times (until we inevitably re-join in 20 years) we need something to gather around, create communities around. This is the worst crisis facing us; it's our greatest opportunity.

As an Aberdonian - we badly need this, and a credible plan is somethign that could genuinely attract me to Labour - the city is terminal decline and needs a plan very quick to transition. There are plans in the works but they are not nearly bold enough.

[Zeb]

Think the 'green' policies dating back to the Brown period, and carried on since then, will be a big part of Labour's pitch to the electorate. The manifesto's budget has already got £30bn set aside to create 400,000 jobs in manufacturing industries to create the base for reducing carbon emissions. Would be surprising if it wasn't joined up with re-training and training, especially for youth unemployment.

[oldfordie]

That's not bad at all.

Yep, well done Oldie, simple and effective and understood by all!

Thanks, Maybe it is time to get rid of Starmer and bring in Esther Rantzen . she was pretty good exposing these Cowboy Builders.

[Sangria]

Think the 'green' policies dating back to the Brown period, and carried on since then, will be a big part of Labour's pitch to the electorate. The manifesto's budget has already got £30bn set aside to create 400,000 jobs in manufacturing industries to create the base for reducing carbon emissions. Would be surprising if it wasn't joined up with re-training and training, especially for youth unemployment.

Labour needs to highlight sustainability rather than the traditional Labour party pitch of unions, liberal ideals, etc. The latter has its supporters but their message polarises, and messaging based on them appeals only to the converted. Sustainability is a pitch that appeals across the spectrum except to the right wing flat earthers and fossil fuel advocates.

[Dr. Beaker]

Thanks, Maybe it is time to get rid of Starmer and bring in Esther Rantzen . she was pretty good exposing these Cowboy Builders.

And you where doing so well.

[oldfordie]

And you where doing so well.

?

[Jiminy Cricket]

And you where doing so well.

Wasn't he just!

[Zeb]

Labour needs to highlight sustainability rather than the traditional Labour party pitch of unions, liberal ideals, etc. The latter has its supporters but their message polarises, and messaging based on them appeals only to the converted. Sustainability is a pitch that appeals across the spectrum except to the right wing flat earthers and fossil fuel advocates.

Watching parts of the hard left melting down over it today cos they haven't been paying attention, but, yeah, it's hard not to see it as a big part of Labour's offer come next election. Was actually surprised by how few climate sceptics there actually are in the UK even knowing we're not polarised by party over it. Paying for it though... There's more cynical reasons to make sure it's pretty prominent too but this is all stuff Milliband has been pushing for a long time and a big part of why he's in the post he is, isn't it? Should be a fascinating 18 months or so as the whole thing gets knocked together and various interest groups start piping up (my own as much as anyone else's!).

[Sangria]

Watching parts of the hard left melting down over it today cos they haven't been paying attention, but, yeah, it's hard not to see it as a big part of Labour's offer come next election. Was actually surprised by how few climate sceptics there actually are in the UK even knowing we're not polarised by party over it. Paying for it though... There's more cynical reasons to make sure it's pretty prominent too but this is all stuff Milliband has been pushing for a long time and a big part of why he's in the post he is, isn't it? Should be a fascinating 18 months or so as the whole thing gets knocked together and various interest groups start piping up (my own as much as anyone else's!).

Any details on the news and reactions? I've not been keeping track with specifics.

[Zeb]

Any details on the news and reactions? I've not been keeping track with specifics.

Oh just general, and predictable, 'if you hadn't hated Corbyn we could have had the Green New Deal' noises in response to the IPCC report. Think there's a new drive for a manifesto commitment to public ownership of all the utilities under the guise of 'it's greener if the government do it' going on around it to try and push for a conference debate. Language of priorities and all that.

[Sangria]

Oh just general, and predictable, 'if you hadn't hated Corbyn we could have had the Green New Deal' noises in response to the IPCC report. Think there's a new drive for a manifesto commitment to public ownership of all the utilities under the guise of 'it's greener if the government do it' going on around it to try and push for a conference debate. Language of priorities and all that.

They're seriously still going on about Corbyn and allocating blame?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

They're seriously still going on about Corbyn and allocating blame?

It's strange but the politically clued up on this site have never seen this.

I have been culling my political friends because it's seriously bringing me down and depressing me- the relentless laughable and pathetic attacks are annoying

When I point out that I was supportive when Corbyn was getting shite and now they are literally replicating it - they get angry

Life is too short. Fuck them and the horse they fucking rode in on.

[Yorkykopite]

Those still going on about Corbyn would be happier outside the Labour party I think. That's where they belong spiritually. It's like those who are bleating on at the moment about Ken Loach.

Loach is a wonderful film-maker but he has spent a lifetime sniping at the Labour party. The idea that somehow he embodies 'Labour values' or that he has a history of fighting for the party is just an ignorant joke. These are the parties that lovely Ken has belonged to: the Socialist Labour League, the Workers Revolutionary Party, the International Marxist Group, the International Socialists, the Socialist Workers Party, Respect, the Trade Union and Socialist Coalition, Respect Renewal, Left Unity. Some of these parties he helped to found, some he stood for as a candidate, all are - or were - zealous opponents of the Labour party. Loach would be much happier outside the party he detests so much. He belongs on the sectarian fringes giving moral support to monsters like Gerry Healy and George Galloway. Moreover he could then say whatever he liked about Jews without wondering whether or not he'd broken some Labour party rule.

[reddebs]

Is this right?  How do you overcome that?

https://www.facebook.com/1393008803/posts/10226722066303116/

[TepidT2O]

Is this right?  How do you overcome that?

https://www.facebook.com/1393008803/posts/10226722066303116/

Because there was insufficient evidence at the time.  Simple.  And he almost certainly wasn’t involved in making that decision

[Sangria]

Is this right?  How do you overcome that?

https://www.facebook.com/1393008803/posts/10226722066303116/

What's that? Some of us don't have FB.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Is this right?  How do you overcome that?

https://www.facebook.com/1393008803/posts/10226722066303116/

What was the quality of the evidence in those four cases? Were the CPS (and Starmer) aware of the other (up to) 500 potential cases of abuse at the time? Obviously*, there is insufficient information contained in that post to assume that Keir Starmer was somehow derelict in his duties.

* Or, at least, it should be obvious. A FB post from some random Joe is hardly what I would call 'compelling'. I am open to being persuaded of Starmer's failures in the Saville case, but only so long as you supply some good evidence and argument.

There was a review in 2013 of the CPS's earlier handling of the cases. This investigation was ordered by Keir Starmer himself.

The following seems like a more reasoned review of what occurred than the FB post from Derek Garrington, former Self-employed at Industrial Storage Engineer.

https://fullfact.org/online/keir-starmer-prosecute-jimmy-savile/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_Fact

[reddebs]

Because there was insufficient evidence at the time.  Simple.  And he almost certainly wasn’t involved in making that decision

Thanks at least I have something to counter it now.  I had no idea he was involved in the Saville stuff at the CPS.

[reddebs]

What's that? Some of us don't have FB.

It's basically accusing Starmer of failing to charge Saville for child sex crimes.