Topic: Keir Starmer: your views?

[petecolonia]

Dawn Butler has done what I wish a lot more of the opposition would do in calling out the behaviour of this government and Johnson both individually and as the figureheads of the government.  Starmer can then retain his position as measured and reasoned while still supporting his MPs and their views.  Ed Milliband taking Johnson to task over Brexit and leaving Johnson looking like a lost child is another good recent example.

It's undoubtedly frustrating at times watching Starmer trying to take the high road while Johnson apes around in front of him and delivers all his well rehearsed soundbites.  I really don't think it would do Starmer or Labour any favours though if he lowered himself to Johnson's level.  Those people that like Johnson for his obnoxious and perceived anti-establishment behaviour aren't going to suddenly fall in behind Starmer because he's mimicking him.

He couldn't do it, needs his backbenchers, that's all perfectly fine. But he should reinstate Jeremy and Rebecca.

[oldfordie]

Dawn Butler has done what I wish a lot more of the opposition would do in calling out the behaviour of this government and Johnson both individually and as the figureheads of the government.  Starmer can then retain his position as measured and reasoned while still supporting his MPs and their views.  Ed Milliband taking Johnson to task over Brexit and leaving Johnson looking like a lost child is another good recent example.

It's undoubtedly frustrating at times watching Starmer trying to take the high road while Johnson apes around in front of him and delivers all his well rehearsed soundbites.  I really don't think it would do Starmer or Labour any favours though if he lowered himself to Johnson's level.  Those people that like Johnson for his obnoxious and perceived anti-establishment behaviour aren't going to suddenly fall in behind Starmer because he's mimicking him.

Ive been arguing for it to happen for the last few years and I would have no problem with it happening again when Johnson leaves himself wide open, I would of applauded any MP who stood up and called Johnson a liar when he kept on telling the country there would be no border checks at the Irish sea under his Oven ready Brexit, it was deliberate lie to deceive the public, Johnson left himself wide open with no defence or hope of wining the argument.
I can only repeat what ive said many times over the last few years. the difference with Johnson lies is he deliberately creates these lies out of thin air to con the public into supporting his political aims. he actually sets out to deceive the public when thinking up his lies. of course other MPs bend the truth, they might even lie when cornered to defend themselves, I make no excuses for them but they are nowhere near as dangerous as Johnson.

[Alan_X]

This is getting way off topic. Locked for a review and clear up.

[Alan_X]

Too complicated to tease out the on-topic posts from the shite so apologies of your good post has gone with the bad.

Just to re-state a few ground rules:

This is a review of Kier Starmer's performance as Labour Leader.

It is not about Jeremy Corbyn, Ken Loach, the definition of Neo-Liberalism or Finkelstein's book on the Holocaust Industry.

If the best you can offer is a re-hash of old arguments that have been done to death in the hundreds of pages of tedious bickering in previous Labour threads then you will be banned for boredom.

Unlocked.

[Alan_X]

Unlocked - play nicely kids.

[Zeb]

Looks like it's going to become increasingly difficult to find a shared fact based reality for different parts of left wing politics to critique Starmer, and the Labour party more generally going forwards. Was reading something put forward as a 'rigorously researched' expose of how useless Starmer is from one of the alternative media sites. Could spot three factual errors in the first paragraph, before it then descended into a bizarre blending of hearsay and untruths. To such an extent even some of those the article would seem to have hoped to boost have been publicly complaining about its errors about them. This comes on top of months of stuff like 'Starmer takes bribes to ignore racism' and its origins in 'Mossad/random Israeli/random Jewish group control Starmer/the Labour party'. Or we could take the ongoing performative stupidity around Forde's investigation as he tries to avoid influencing potential criminal cases with his findings which has somehow become Starmer conducting a coverup. It makes criticisms like 'Jenny Chapman didn't spot the importance of a corruption investigation' rather mundane and irrelevant by comparison.

Could possibly be entering a post-vaccine/post-rally round the flag effect for politics, according to Survation's Chris Curtis. Seems to be movement in most of the polls to a narrowing between Labour and Tories which looks linked to trust in the government falling. Whether it lasts... But is interesting watching firm policy proposals now being pushed out from behind the scenes while there's some room there for Labour to get on the airwaves on something other than a response to a government announcement. See whether it's successful as a start to putting forward an idea of where the country should be heading which is where both criticism and a fair amount of mitigation can be found for the past 18 months.

[Welshred]

https://twitter.com/HackneyAbbott/status/1420290283732930560?s=20

It doesn't particularly help his job when people in his own party are openly criticising any of the policies that he has put out, especially when the reason for those redundancies was the leadership she was involved in!

[Yorkykopite]

https://twitter.com/HackneyAbbott/status/1420290283732930560?s=20

It doesn't particularly help his job when people in his own party are openly criticising any of the policies that he has put out, especially when the reason for those redundancies was the leadership she was involved in!

When Diane Abbott says 90 staff have been made redundant you're bound to ask yourself does she really mean 9, or even 900?

[thaddeus]

https://twitter.com/HackneyAbbott/status/1420290283732930560?s=20

It doesn't particularly help his job when people in his own party are openly criticising any of the policies that he has put out, especially when the reason for those redundancies was the leadership she was involved in!

Infuriating.  It just feeds the narrative that "they're all as bad as each other" when the incumbent government are evidentially worse in almost every way than the opposition (and any UK government in living memory).

Surely that's something that could and should be discussed in house.

It's mad that it needs saying but the Tories are the enemy that all of Labour should be fighting.

[filopastry]

Its disappointing to see Diane Abbott ignoring the wise words of Diane Abbott 3 days ago "We should be fighting the Tories, not each other"

https://twitter.com/HackneyAbbott/status/1419253550769659905

[Yorkykopite]

Its disappointing to see Diane Abbott ignoring the wise words of Diane Abbott 3 days ago "We should be fighting the Tories, not each other"

https://twitter.com/HackneyAbbott/status/1419253550769659905

To be fair to her, I suppose in her own mind that's what she's doing.

[filopastry]

To be fair to her, I suppose in her own mind that's what she's doing.

[Zeb]

It's the selective silence to it. This was exactly what was happening post-GE 2019 and she said nothing. I think the underlying point is fair enough although hiring lots of people you can't afford to pay has been tried and was clearly not the solution. Not sure what the right answer is to being able to afford a smaller core group of permanent staff and then also needing additional staff around elections which doesn't involve temporary contracts, let alone staff needed for specific purposes, and with specific skills - such as knowledge of 'why it's a bad idea to leak confidential information', as in this case where it's to speed up the handling of the backlog of complaints.

[oldfordie]

Its disappointing to see Diane Abbott ignoring the wise words of Diane Abbott 3 days ago "We should be fighting the Tories, not each other"

https://twitter.com/HackneyAbbott/status/1419253550769659905

How long will it take before the real problem is acknowledged.
You keep hearing people arguing Labour have to get their act together and unite against the real enemy the Torys, all sounds great but this ignores the real problem as they are implying all these problems are down to a A Clash of Personalities. the problem isn't down to a clash of personalities, it's down to the left attacking the Labour party with malice.

[Kenny's Jacket]

How long will it take before the real problem is acknowledged.
You keep hearing people arguing Labour have to get their act together and unite against the real enemy the Torys, all sounds great but this ignores the real problem as they are implying all these problems are down to a A Clash of Personalities. the problem isn't down to a clash of personalities, it's down to the left attacking the Labour party with malice.

both sides attack each other

[oldfordie]

both sides attack each other

It's the double standards and hypocrisy to attack the center left and defend their position that makes the situation impossible, it's all been covered many times.

[OOS]

How long will it take before the real problem is acknowledged.
You keep hearing people arguing Labour have to get their act together and unite against the real enemy the Torys, all sounds great but this ignores the real problem as they are implying all these problems are down to a A Clash of Personalities. the problem isn't down to a clash of personalities, it's down to the left attacking the Labour party with malice.

One big problem with Labour is that's its too fucking intense. A minor disagreement, people think they are being personally attacked. It's what you get, when a party is full of bores whose politics is their personality. Its partially why the left always lose the Britain.

[Yorkykopite]

One big problem with Labour is that's its too fucking intense. A minor disagreement, people think they are being personally attacked. It's what you get, when a party is full of bores whose politics is their personality. Its partially why the left always lose the Britain.

Aye, George Orwell made the same point once. Everybody would be a socialist if it wasn't for socialists! Oscar Wilde too. Socialism was obvious to him, but its appeal was ruined by all the bores who you had to confederate with to make it possible.

It's like my old mate DannyD here on RAWK. A man who never told a joke and never understood one. Your typical socialist I'm afraid to say. That's being a bit harsh. Typical revolutionary is better. I remember once somebody picking up on something he'd said about how much he hated some obscure marxist group. It had a name similar to his own obscure marxist group. I can't remember the name of either organisation. Anyway, the inevitable clip was posted from 'Life of Brian' of the Judean People's Popular Front and DannyD complained that the poster was trivialising debate. Someone else then asked Danny if he hadn't found Life of Brian just a little bit funny at the time. And Danny replied that he had and that indeed his obscure marxist group had had a vote to see a) whether members could visit a cinema to see it b) whether they were allowed to find it funny. Danny was very proud of the fact that they had voted 'yes' to both things ("after considerable debate"). And then he delivered the coup de grace: "It's important, you see, that on occasions you should show a sense of humour."

[ShakaHislop]

It's the double standards and hypocrisy to attack the center left and defend their position that makes the situation impossible, it's all been covered many times.

The "we can never do wrong" attitude of the centre left is just as much of a problem.

[bigbonedrawky]

How long will it take before the real problem is acknowledged.
You keep hearing people arguing Labour have to get their act together and unite against the real enemy the Torys, all sounds great but this ignores the real problem as they are implying all these problems are down to a A Clash of Personalities. the problem isn't down to a clash of personalities, it's down to the left attacking the Labour party with malice.

https://twitter.com/HackneyAbbott/status/1420290283732930560?s=20

It doesn't particularly help his job when people in his own party are openly criticising any of the policies that he has put out, especially when the reason for those redundancies was the leadership she was involved in!

What exactly did you expect ? The Labour Party have been involved in a malicious and vindictive civil war with itself for over 5 years, you'd have to be incredibly naive to think everything will be hunky dory for at least a few year's...Starmer had a hard enough job on his plate but he's just carried on with the same old, same old.
 
Everything you acuse the left of the party doing, the right of the party have been doing for a lot longer But when you attack "the left" you are essentialy attacking The Labour Party because that how the average voter see's The Labour Party, they are the left and the Tories are the right.

FWIW Abbotts criticism reminds me of the criticism Corbyn got when Glastonbury hired workers on zero hour contracts.

[Wild Romany Boy]

No wonder I wasn't a good stand-up comedian if I never had a sense of humour due to my political leanings. I wish I'd been told that at 18, would have saved me a lot of money at the Fringe festival. I bombed enough times as it was to be honest.

Back to the topic at hand, which is Keir Starmer, I now believe that the Tories will replace their leader before Labour will. I would not have thought that one month ago. Either the charm of Boris is wearing thin or Keir is getting a little bit of momentum, but the Tories will probably need to make a call before Labour have to.

[oldfordie]

What exactly did you expect ? The Labour Party have been involved in a malicious and vindictive civil war with itself for over 5 years, you'd have to be incredibly naive to think everything will be hunky dory for at least a few year's...Starmer had a hard enough job on his plate but he's just carried on with the same old, same old.
 
Everything you acuse the left of the party doing, the right of the party have been doing for a lot longer But when you attack "the left" you are essentialy attacking The Labour Party because that how the average voter see's The Labour Party, they are the left and the Tories are the right.

FWIW Abbotts criticism reminds me of the criticism Corbyn got when Glastonbury hired workers on zero hour contracts.

Not really. The center left acknowledge crap leaders, they don't defend them when they are challenged for the leadership. nobody defends Miliband, most only defend Blair for his domestic policies. we saw the reaction by the left when Corbyn was challenged. the Chicken coup traitors blah blah blah, the double standards and hypocrisy was shocking.

[bigbonedrawky]

Not really. The center left acknowledge crap leaders, they don't defend them when they are challenged for the leadership. nobody defends Miliband, most only defend Blair for his domestic policies. we saw the reaction by the left when Corbyn was challenged. the Chicken coup traitors blah blah blah, the double standards and hypocrisy was shocking.

Just the left innit... As for double standards and hypocrisy, again it's just the left ...AKA The Labour Party.

[Dr. Beaker]

Aye, George Orwell made the same point once. Everybody would be a socialist if it wasn't for socialists! Oscar Wilde too. Socialism was obvious to him, but its appeal was ruined by all the bores who you had to confederate with to make it possible.

It's like my old mate DannyD here on RAWK. A man who never told a joke and never understood one. Your typical socialist I'm afraid to say. That's being a bit harsh. Typical revolutionary is better. I remember once somebody picking up on something he'd said about how much he hated some obscure marxist group. It had a name similar to his own obscure marxist group. I can't remember the name of either organisation. Anyway, the inevitable clip was posted from 'Life of Brian' of the Judean People's Popular Front and DannyD complained that the poster was trivialising debate. Someone else then asked Danny if he hadn't found Life of Brian just a little bit funny at the time. And Danny replied that he had and that indeed his obscure marxist group had had a vote to see a) whether members could visit a cinema to see it b) whether they were allowed to find it funny. Danny was very proud of the fact that they had voted 'yes' to both things ("after considerable debate"). And then he delivered the coup de grace: "It's important, you see, that on occasions you should show a sense of humour."

"Yes, we must think for ourselves"!

[Andy @ Allerton!]

What exactly did you expect ? The Labour Party have been involved in a malicious and vindictive civil war with itself for over 5 years, you'd have to be incredibly naive to think everything will be hunky dory for at least a few year's...Starmer had a hard enough job on his plate but he's just carried on with the same old, same old.
 
Everything you acuse the left of the party doing, the right of the party have been doing for a lot longer But when you attack "the left" you are essentialy attacking The Labour Party because that how the average voter see's The Labour Party, they are the left and the Tories are the right.

FWIW Abbotts criticism reminds me of the criticism Corbyn got when Glastonbury hired workers on zero hour contracts.

It's been going on for over 70 years hasn't it?

[Jiminy Cricket]

Aye, George Orwell made the same point once. Everybody would be a socialist if it wasn't for socialists! Oscar Wilde too. Socialism was obvious to him, but its appeal was ruined by all the bores who you had to confederate with to make it possible.

It's like my old mate DannyD here on RAWK. A man who never told a joke and never understood one. Your typical socialist I'm afraid to say. That's being a bit harsh. Typical revolutionary is better. I remember once somebody picking up on something he'd said about how much he hated some obscure marxist group. It had a name similar to his own obscure marxist group. I can't remember the name of either organisation. Anyway, the inevitable clip was posted from 'Life of Brian' of the Judean People's Popular Front and DannyD complained that the poster was trivialising debate. Someone else then asked Danny if he hadn't found Life of Brian just a little bit funny at the time. And Danny replied that he had and that indeed his obscure marxist group had had a vote to see a) whether members could visit a cinema to see it b) whether they were allowed to find it funny. Danny was very proud of the fact that they had voted 'yes' to both things ("after considerable debate"). And then he delivered the coup de grace: "It's important, you see, that on occasions you should show a sense of humour."

I really want to believe this happened.

[Baraka]

He's been a bit average really. Miliband minus the bacon butty.

[Wild Romany Boy]

I really want to believe this happened.

Did you know that "gullible" isn't even a word in the dictionary?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Did you know that "gullible" isn't even a word in the dictionary?

Yeah, it means a seagull's chip-eating device.

[Yorkykopite]

"Yes, we must think for ourselves"!

 

I'd say the Boring Prophet too, but I wouldn't want to malign one of the greatest-ever moments in film comedy history. 

(Tho' possibly Keir Starmer has a bit of the Boring Prophet about him?)

[Yorkykopite]

I really want to believe this happened.

Oh, it happened for sure.

One day (after the revolution) the St Helens Workers Party for Revolutionary Socialist Proletarianism (Marxist-Leninist) will publish their minutes and then we'll be able to see the full verbatim discussion.

"Point of order Comrade Chairman!"
"Comrade Danny, please speak"
"When you advise we can find the film amusing, does that mean we can laugh or merely smile? Cackle or actually break down in hysterics? Nod our heads sagely to indicate that we understood the joke or actually shake and whimper and allow tears to pass through the ducts?"
"Well, according to Marx......" etc etc

[Baraka]

Oh, it happened for sure.

One day (after the revolution) the St Helens Workers Party for Revolutionary Socialist Proletarianism (Marxist-Leninist) will publish their minutes and then we'll be able to see the full verbatim discussion.

"Point of order Comrade Chairman!"
"Comrade Danny, please speak"
"When you advise we can find the film amusing, does that mean we can laugh or merely smile? Cackle or actually break down in hysterics? Nod our heads sagely to indicate that we understood the joke or actually shake and whimper and allow tears to pass through the ducts?"
"Well, according to Marx......" etc etc

its as almost as bad as the SWP saying people can't enjoy football lmao.

[Zeb]

Workers' rights being improved has already been put fronted by Rayner. Reeves is doing the 'five tests' thing. Worth taking note of, if you've not been following Reeves' own writing over the years, is where she's now at compared to a decade ago on how the economy should be managed.

We have a chance to use this time to boost growth, and to learn the lessons this pandemic has taught us about our economy, our industries and our vital public services, environment and quality of life. A Labour government will do things differently.

That’s why this week I set out five tests to ensure the government is delivering the national economy the British people deserve. The economy Labour wants to build is one where everyone has a secure job with wages they can raise a family on, a financial buffer when things go wrong, and opportunities to prosper – no matter where they’re from or what their background. These tests will help hold the government’s feet to the fire when it comes to delivering those aims.

First, our British industries should thrive. This means an expansion of manufacturing output, jobs and exports, including in high-growth sectors of the future such as green technology and digital services. Labour would do this with our plan to buy, make and sell more in Britain, building the skills and jobs of the future that will help us succeed on the global stage.

Second, people should have secure jobs and real choices around work. That means a stable income, growth in occupations that pay well but that you don’t need a degree for, and improved pay and conditions.

Third, everyone should feel the benefits of higher pay and a lower cost of living. We need a reduction in the number of households, children and pensioners in poverty, falling levels of problem debt, and higher wages so that fewer people require in-work benefits.

Fourth, no one and nowhere should miss out as the recovery takes shape. No matter where they live or what their background, everyone should be able to benefit from greater opportunities. And yet, despite Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson’s promises, the economic performance of the highest and lowest regions is forecast to widen over the course of this parliament. That cannot be allowed to happen.

Fifth, the economic recovery must be sustainable. We need real, tangible progress towards our net zero goals, while building stronger, more resilient communities with greater wellbeing and falling rates of loneliness and social isolation.

The pandemic has hit us hard – and in more ways than one. But the problems we face as a country go back far further than the last 18 months. Under the Conservatives, in the nine years running up to the pandemic, low growth lost us a potential £16.7bn in tax revenue. That’s money that could have been spent on our NHS, supporting our teachers, or maintaining police numbers.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jul/29/amid-tory-chaos-and-confusion-labour-has-a-covid-recovery-plan

A lot of this is just tying together things already proposed into an overall more coherent package. Much of what's behind those points is along the lines of what we've seen already at local level under Labour councils as well as the proposals the soft left have been pushing for years (Brown would have even implemented something towards them if he'd won in 2010) and which Corbyn and McDonnell also adapted towards creating jobs outside of regional city hubs. For those of us keen on things which are a little more radical, there's questions there on how/if something like universal basic services can/should fit in with what Reeves is prioritising ahead of an election even if you can understand the desire to make an offer which doesn't sound pie in the sky.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Did you know that "gullible" isn't even a word in the dictionary?

Really!? Let me go and check that with an online dictionary to make sure.  

In the meantime, since we are on the topic of dictionaries: did you know that 'stifle' is the only word in the English language which is an anagram of itself?

[Alan_X]

Really!? Let me go and check that with an online dictionary to make sure.  

In the meantime, since we are on the topic of dictionaries: did you know that 'stifle' is the only word in the English language which is an anagram of itself?

What about elfist:

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Elfist

[Jiminy Cricket]

What about elfist:

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Elfist

Well, if you are must resort to using Urban Dictionary to prove me wrong!

[Dr. Beaker]

I'd say the Boring Prophet too, but I wouldn't want to malign one of the greatest-ever moments in film comedy history. 

(Tho' possibly Keir Starmer has a bit of the Boring Prophet about him?)

We need better imagery if we are to win the next election. I would suggest a backdrop of Colonel Johnson's macabre covid death cult, whilst in the foreground Starmers moonlit head (knife between teeth) emerges from the Thames, to the strains of God Save The Queen by Hendrix.

[RainbowFlick]

I know he's supportive of them, but it took him far too long to make a statement on RNLI. I'm not really sure why it takes hours/days for him to find the 'right' messaging to make.

It always just feels he's far too late to react to certain things but there's no real reason why when he's clearly supportive of them?

Is the Labour Party just trying its hardest to get messaging 'right' that badly?

[Red Beret]

I know he's supportive of them, but it took him far too long to make a statement on RNLI. I'm not really sure why it takes hours/days for him to find the 'right' messaging to make.

It always just feels he's far too late to react to certain things but there's no real reason why when he's clearly supportive of them?

Is the Labour Party just trying its hardest to get messaging 'right' that badly?

When you have a hostile media ready to pick apart every statement for something to attack you with then possibly.

[TepidT2O]

I think the messaging has improved from that time it tried to let Russia determine whether it had or hadn’t tried to use nerve agents to assassinate someone.

Maybe just me?