Author Topic: PL: Liverpool 0 vs 1 Fulham Lemina ‘45  (Read 59253 times)

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Re: PL: Liverpool 0 vs 1 Fulham Lemina ‘45
« Reply #1440 on: March 10, 2021, 02:36:51 pm »
Why so?

it's one of those transfer footy phrases that grinds my gears  ;D  Not as bad as ‘come and get me plea’, but it’s up there!

Offline SteveLFC

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Re: PL: Liverpool 0 vs 1 Fulham Lemina ‘45
« Reply #1441 on: March 10, 2021, 02:38:12 pm »
it's one of those transfer footy phrases that grinds my gears  ;D  Not as bad as ‘come and get me plea’, but it’s up there!

So, why?

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Re: PL: Liverpool 0 vs 1 Fulham Lemina ‘45
« Reply #1442 on: March 10, 2021, 02:38:44 pm »
I honestly wouldn’t! It just doens’t bother me. Sure, I want the best for the club, but the way the league is now, there’s only 1 way to compete with clubs like Man City and Chelsea, and that is to have scum owners, and yeah, that is the last thing I would want.

And to be honest, winning the CL and League under Jürgen Klopp, by doing things the right way AND while competing with these monstrosities, seemed to make it even more special. I get fans want ‘dynasties’ or whatever, but having thought I’d never see the team win the league again, to then seeing them win it, on the back of winning the CL, I am ok with it.

Hopefully the club can make some positive moves in the summer in the sense they can clear the decks a bit and add 2 or 3 good players, but I certainly won’t be crying for crazy investments.  My only issue was ever that they made Klopp’s job really sodding difficult this january, when it was already tough. It was dealt with badly, and I think he deserved a bit more help. But other than that, more positives than negatives!

Frame it, close it, done.
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Re: PL: Liverpool 0 vs 1 Fulham Lemina ‘45
« Reply #1443 on: March 10, 2021, 02:40:22 pm »
Thats simply not true though! Al has already mentioned we should have signed Caleta-Car, we tried but he wasn't interested. Its just not true to say that FSG made life difficult for Klopp.

Caleta-Car was at the airport and Marseille pulled the plug because it was too late to bring in a replacement and they had already raised funds by selling Sansom to Villa. 

Caleta-Car said he didn't want to leave after the Marseille fans set fire to their own training ground because they were upset with performances. I wonder why he did that ?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2021, 02:42:43 pm by Al 666 »
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Offline SteveLFC

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Re: PL: Liverpool 0 vs 1 Fulham Lemina ‘45
« Reply #1444 on: March 10, 2021, 02:41:01 pm »
It's like a game of FSG bingo.

Spot the themes. Blame Torres, praise Carroll, self-financing, spend money in the summer. War chest/lock box.

That's incredibly patronising! You may be obsessed with slagging FSG, I prefer to support my club, that really is all its about.

Offline SteveLFC

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Re: PL: Liverpool 0 vs 1 Fulham Lemina ‘45
« Reply #1445 on: March 10, 2021, 02:41:54 pm »
Caleta-Car was at the airport and Marseille pulled the plug because it was too late to bring in a replacement and they had already raised funds by selling Sansom to Villa.

He chose to stay at Marseille.

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Re: PL: Liverpool 0 vs 1 Fulham Lemina ‘45
« Reply #1446 on: March 10, 2021, 02:43:28 pm »
Caleta-Car was at the airport and Marseille pulled the plug because it was too late to bring in a replacement and they had already raised funds by selling Sansom to Villa.

The point is, our so-called penny-pinching owners made an approach.

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Re: PL: Liverpool 0 vs 1 Fulham Lemina ‘45
« Reply #1447 on: March 10, 2021, 02:43:47 pm »
He chose to stay at Marseille.

Marseille fans set fire to their own training ground what did you expect him to say ?
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Re: PL: Liverpool 0 vs 1 Fulham Lemina ‘45
« Reply #1448 on: March 10, 2021, 02:44:35 pm »
The point is, our so-called penny-pinching owners made an approach.

After Matip and Fabinho were injured at the end of the window.
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Re: PL: Liverpool 0 vs 1 Fulham Lemina ‘45
« Reply #1449 on: March 10, 2021, 02:45:43 pm »
Marseille fans set fire to their own training ground what did you expect him to say ?

Whatever, believe what you want, even if its untrue. Bored now.

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Re: PL: Liverpool 0 vs 1 Fulham Lemina ‘45
« Reply #1450 on: March 10, 2021, 02:50:39 pm »
but I’m sure you must get why a lot of people argue that shouldn’t be the case with a club of Liverpool’s stature right? I.E. buying to sell, and buying ‘low’ to develop and sell higher. You say it’s ‘quite right’, but others very much have the right to say the method isn’t quite right.

Whilst I agree people have the right to suggest our recruitment and financial model isn't the right model, the model needs to represented appropriately.

We don't buy to sell. We have done that previously but you can easily argue that's a function of the club not previously being able to retain players. Sterling, Suarez, Coutinho all left because they wanted to. Not because they were pushed out the door by the club against the manager's wishes to raise funds. We did re-invest the money and that's arguably were the big transfer fees we paid out came from. But we don't buy to sell per se. The proof of that is based in what has happened since Coutinho left.

Every World class player, or almost all, we have at the club have signed a new contract on much improved terms. If we were truly a buy to sell (and re-invest)  club we'd have flipped a few of Salah, Mane, VvD etc. to re-invest. In the main, our model is to buy low (or get value in the market) for players we feel are undervalued and/or have the potential to have break out season relatively soon. You can argue that the undervalued players can also be stretched to positions and that we identified value in CBs and GKs over forwards when we bought VvD and Alisson.

The model is then to retain those players and reward them with contracts that are commensurate with their performances and achievements whilst at the club.  This type of model has been hugely successful for us, as borne out by the trophies and consistency of performance over 3 seasons. It does come at a price though. If you buy 'low', with the aim of identifying undervalued players, developing them and then rewarding them, and you are successful then your wage bill increases significantly. That's what's happened with us. Increased prize money, TV money and increased commercial activity has in part funded the new contracts and increase in wages (along with infrastructure improvements, agent fees for contract renewals etc..).

Again I don't have issue with people having Q's or issues with the current model but people need to be realistic and clear about what the model is and what they are asking for.  I also get that January and potentially this summer may be viewed as unique situations. In these instances we may want the owners to step in and add additional funds. I've said before that without hindsight, the summer looks like more of a desperate situation than we had in  December or early January. It's also an environment where additional money could be more easily utilised and value could still be sort in the market.

That's not exactly what a lot of people are asking for though. People aren't asking for FSG to only step in during unique situations. Some people want us to rip up our current model and spend more money every transfer window. Again that's their prerogative but the money needs to come from somewhere. Personally, I think the current model has served us really well and allowed the club to grow both on and off the pitch without increasing debt. The likelihood of no CL football this summer and the financial implications of no CL football on the back of a season behind closed doors and lost gate receipts, on the back of a previous season where significant TV rebates need to be addressed, represents a unique situation to me. This is type of situation whereI'd like to see FSG invest funds to keep us moving forward. Summer 2019 for example doesn't feel like a break glass emergency to me to change our financial and recruitment models given the previous success.
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Re: PL: Liverpool 0 vs 1 Fulham Lemina ‘45
« Reply #1451 on: March 10, 2021, 02:54:09 pm »
We should have had a deal put in place for a defender the moment Gomez got injured in November.



That's too vague.

What happens if the centre backs you scouted and identified as long term targets either don't want to move or their club doesn't want to sell on January 1st at a price our recruitment team have identified as appropriate?

I think this situation is likely given the type of player we'd target. What you are really arguing about is that FSG should have provided funds to pay over the odds for a long term target. I can't see what other option you are suggesting given virtually no top centre back moved in January.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2021, 02:59:14 pm by Jookie »
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Re: PL: Liverpool 0 vs 1 Fulham Lemina ‘45
« Reply #1452 on: March 10, 2021, 02:55:00 pm »
So I would say it is credible to blame Phillips and Williams at centre back on the failure to bring in a senior experienced centre back in January.
'Blame' that situation for what, though?

Many posters have said that retaining the high line with players like Phillips and Williams is suicidal, because they don't have the pace to play it. Others have said that our pressure on the ball has dropped off as a result - which is odd, as if we haven't dropped the 'suicidal' high line, there is no cause-and-effect on the press. It's the lack of pressure on the ball which exposes the slower back line, not vice versa.

And while we're discussing the exposure of the back line - the starting centre backs in games where we've conceded more than 1 goal in the recent run were Henderson (3), Kabak (2) and Fabinho (1). Not Phillips or Williams. We should be able to concede a single goal and not lose the game. But we've failed to score in eight of the last fourteen; we scored once in three of the others. Is the failure to sign a CB responsible for that? To pre-empt the more defensive attitude of the fullbacks - it's partial (early phases of possession only), and only appeared three and a half games ago.

Among the causes of the drop in intensity (apart from a messed up calendar and little rest between games) would be the front three being overplayed and the move of Fabinho and Henderson into central defence, with greater reliance on Thiago, Milner and Jones (and the danger of Wijnaldum becoming jaded). On the latter, the issue isn't so much whether we should have bought a CB on 1st January or 31st January as whether we should have gone into the season with so few CBs. But that decision seems to have been a calculated risk by Klopp (within the financial constraints of not being an oligarch's plaything, and a global pandemic) and prioritising the signing of Thiago over a centre back; so less clear cut opportunity to lay the blame with the owners. On the former too, there's bad luck with the injury to Jota, and managerial choice in the lack of use of alternatives such as Minamino or (for a long while) Shaqiri, etc.

We're not City. We're never going to have top class multiple options for all positions in the side. Klopp has the final say - within financial boundaries. Was it FSG who decided to buy Thiago rather than a fourth centre back? Or to sell Lovren rather than the more fragile Matip? That's not to criticise Klopp: he took a calculated risk on what he thought added the most value to the squad. If FSG set the budget but the manager decides how to spend the money, it's disingenuous when a purchase backfires (the opportunity cost becomes greater than the benefit) to go back to complaining about the budget.
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Re: PL: Liverpool 0 vs 1 Fulham Lemina ‘45
« Reply #1453 on: March 10, 2021, 02:59:20 pm »
Whatever, believe what you want, even if its untrue. Bored now.

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11669/12220127/duje-caleta-car-marseille-defender-reveals-he-almost-joined-liverpool-in-january-transfer-window

Marseille defender Duje Caleta-Car has revealed he almost joined Liverpool during the January transfer window as the club looked to sign reinforcements to help address their defensive crisis.

The Reds signed Ben Davies from Preston and Ozan Kabak from Schalke on deadline day, but Caleta-Car was also one of their targets.

Liverpool are understood to have agreed a deal with Marseille for Croatia international Caleta-Car but the French club pulled out due to concerns they could not sign a replacement for him before the transfer deadline.

The 24-year old was at Marseille's Mairgnane airport ready to fly via private jet to Manchester to complete a permanent move to the Premier League champions but never boarded the plane.
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Re: PL: Liverpool 0 vs 1 Fulham Lemina ‘45
« Reply #1454 on: March 10, 2021, 03:03:31 pm »
'Blame' that situation for what, though?

Many posters have said that retaining the high line with players like Phillips and Williams is suicidal, because they don't have the pace to play it. Others have said that our pressure on the ball has dropped off as a result - which is odd, as if we haven't dropped the 'suicidal' high line, there is no cause-and-effect on the press. It's the lack of pressure on the ball which exposes the slower back line, not vice versa.

And while we're discussing the exposure of the back line - the starting centre backs in games where we've conceded more than 1 goal in the recent run were Henderson (3), Kabak (2) and Fabinho (1). Not Phillips or Williams. We should be able to concede a single goal and not lose the game. But we've failed to score in eight of the last fourteen; we scored once in three of the others. Is the failure to sign a CB responsible for that? To pre-empt the more defensive attitude of the fullbacks - it's partial (early phases of possession only), and only appeared three and a half games ago.

Among the causes of the drop in intensity (apart from a messed up calendar and little rest between games) would be the front three being overplayed and the move of Fabinho and Henderson into central defence, with greater reliance on Thiago, Milner and Jones (and the danger of Wijnaldum becoming jaded). On the latter, the issue isn't so much whether we should have bought a CB on 1st January or 31st January as whether we should have gone into the season with so few CBs. But that decision seems to have been a calculated risk by Klopp (within the financial constraints of not being an oligarch's plaything, and a global pandemic) and prioritising the signing of Thiago over a centre back; so less clear cut opportunity to lay the blame with the owners. On the former too, there's bad luck with the injury to Jota, and managerial choice in the lack of use of alternatives such as Minamino or (for a long while) Shaqiri, etc.

We're not City. We're never going to have top class multiple options for all positions in the side. Klopp has the final say - within financial boundaries. Was it FSG who decided to buy Thiago rather than a fourth centre back? Or to sell Lovren rather than the more fragile Matip? That's not to criticise Klopp: he took a calculated risk on what he thought added the most value to the squad. If FSG set the budget but the manager decides how to spend the money, it's disingenuous when a purchase backfires (the opportunity cost becomes greater than the benefit) to go back to complaining about the budget.

Not that I am defending Al here, but the problem is less the high line and more of the 18 different combinations of CB pairing this year.   Defense needs continuity, certainty and replication --- practice now takes on a different tone, timing and a larger amount attention to the back 4.

Ultimately, not having that dominance in the Air --- losing Van Dijk (and then losing composed players who could step up in Virgil's absence have been the biggest problems).   

In the past few years, the way to get at us (has been in the gaps between the CB's and marking backs who can get caught up higher on the pitch (TAA/Robbo)....   Now, we have the three-headed hydra of losing more aerial balls over the top (and 2nd balls in midfield), with the same gaps in our formation,  coinciding with players who have less pace.   All of these defenders have come up playing in a high line (so, let's be accurate here).   

Terms like suicidal are doing much more work in these sentences than Jurgen, the lads, and or anyone in analytics would ever think....  Giving up more space underneath causes its own version of problems too, which never gets mentioned.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2021, 03:06:06 pm by Trendisnotdestiny »
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Re: PL: Liverpool 0 vs 1 Fulham Lemina ‘45
« Reply #1455 on: March 10, 2021, 03:03:39 pm »
That's too vague.

What happens if the centre backs you scouted and identified as long term targets either don't want to move or their club doesn't want to sell on January 1st at a price our recruitment team have identified as appropriate?

I think this situation is likely given the type of player we'd target. What you are really arguing about is that FSG should have provided funds to pay over the odds for a long term target. I can't see what other option you are suggesting given virtually no top centre back moved in January.

The local journalists have made it clear that funds for any centre back were not forthcoming until both Matip and Fabinho got injured. We then brought in Ben Davies and Ozan Kabak for peanuts with Miniamino then being sent out on loan to partly recoup the cost.
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Re: PL: Liverpool 0 vs 1 Fulham Lemina ‘45
« Reply #1456 on: March 10, 2021, 03:04:58 pm »
Not that I am defending Al here, but the problem is less the high line and more of the 18 different combinations of CB pairing this year.   Defense needs continuity, certainty and replication --- practice now takes on a different tone, timing and a larger amount attention to the back 4.

Ultimately, not having that dominance in the Air --- losing Van Dijk (and then losing composed players who could step up in Virgil's absence has been the biggest problem).   

In the past few years, the way to get at us (has been in the gaps between the CB's and marking backs who can get caught up higher on the pitch (TAA/Robbo)....   Now, we have the three-headed hydra of losing more aerial balls over the top (and 2nd balls in midfield), with the same gaps in our formation,  coinciding with players who have less pace.   All of these defenders have come up playing in a high line (so, let's be accurate here).   

Terms like suicidal are doing much more work in these sentences than Jurgen, the lads, and or anyone in analytics would ever think....  Giving up more space underneath causes its own version of problems too, which never gets mentioned.

The suicidal high line is the new zonal marking slur to attack a manager the media want out.
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Re: PL: Liverpool 0 vs 1 Fulham Lemina ‘45
« Reply #1457 on: March 10, 2021, 03:08:35 pm »
The suicidal high line is the new zonal marking slur to attack a manager the media want out.

100% agree... its tired argument.  Sure we want more pace anywhere we can get it, but we are facing more and more problems with fewer and fewer solutions is probably the best way to put it.

And to re-orient how the entire team plays on the hopes of making a more solid CB partnership in the short-term (Fowler knows how it would last), is apparently less preferred than asking our defenders to do a bit more work.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2021, 03:12:23 pm by Trendisnotdestiny »
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Re: PL: Liverpool 0 vs 1 Fulham Lemina ‘45
« Reply #1458 on: March 10, 2021, 03:09:57 pm »
The local journalists have made it clear that funds for any centre back were not forthcoming until both Matip and Fabinho got injured. We then brought in Ben Davies and Ozan Kabak for peanuts with Miniamino then being sent out on loan to partly recoup the cost.

Well we’ll have the war-chest again next summer, it’s not like the owners have closed the lock-box, they’ve said that there’s a war-chest and the club can look forward to a war-chest in the summer on top of what the regular size of the war-chest is - I.e a super war-chest.

In hindsight Carroll fit B-Rodge’s philosophy of football to a Tee, and Torres was at the end of his Anfield career and funded the war-chest that year.

If it’s a question of how big the war-chest is, then we’ll just have to wait and see the size of the war-chest, it could be a big war-chest, a small war-chest, a mini war-chest, or a huge war-chest. Who knows now how the war-chest will look in the future?

Long live the war-chest. The war-chest will never walk alone.
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