Author Topic: Overrated?  (Read 46743 times)

Offline liverbloke

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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #360 on: March 10, 2021, 12:47:12 pm »
Nah, I've let a few go in this thread but I'm not having Elvis. If anything he's vastly underrated, since he was one of the best and most innovative arrangers of the time. You simply can't compare his versions of Hound Dog or Blue Suede Shoes to the original. Also, as the first artist to bring country and the traditional Italian ballad style to rhythm and blues there's a strong argument he essentially invented what we think of as modern rock n'roll. And that's before you get on to his amazing voice and some of the greatest personal charisma of any musician who ever lived. Even the early films are pretty good.

i've watched tons of documentaries about elvis and they all point at him being quite child-like (man, that theme again), an immature mummy's boy and a serial adulterer, drug user

as an entertainer and as a celebrity he was born for 'those' roles - the quality of his films and his acting can be argued over - as in being so was an icon for the musical change that formed modern music

i wouldn't say he solely 'invented' that but he was no doubt one of the chief instigators of it

it doesn't bother me that he didn't write his own songs - even though it would have been cool if he did - but he was a singer a performer not a writer

as an artist he's brilliant - as a man and as a human being? so-so

I'll tell you what is overrated, since I saw a bit again the other night, is the movie version of American Psycho, which seems to be really highly rated by a lot of people. It's meant to be a depiction of wealth in one of the most grandiose eras in modern history but everything looks cheap even considering the budget, the sound editing is awful (the fact it's even noticeable is a sign of how bad it is), horribly miscast in most parts, buffoonish performances and tonally all over the place to the point where it can't decide whether it wants to be a satire, a farce or a character study. Bale plays Bateman like an exaggerated version of Miles from This Life, though it's still probably better than De Caprio would have been.

But its most monumental failure is that it either doesn't understand, or doesn't have the guts to engage properly with the source material, a satire on the darkness behind the American dream and how money and good looks essentially make anything excusable, even if it's in plain sight. I'm guessing it's the former, since swathes of dialogue from the novel are reproduced without the context to make them meaningful. The film was crying out for Verhoeven, or at the very least someone like Roger Avary who did a terrific job adapting The Rules of Attraction.

i'm along the line of thinking that at least the movie was made and that in itself is a success

whether the viewer would understand its premise is another thing - the same can be said of fight club as its message was lost amidst 'cool' scenes and violence

i actually enjoyed bale in the role as his character always made you feel uneasy, but as i've said, i guess the 'average' movie fan will no doubt remember the 'cool' scenes unaware of its message

we can argue - and i regularly do - that movies can be made 'better' these days, but sometimes that original version has its place and, as with the original 'chainsaw' movie, the way it was produced can have its own charm

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Offline Sheer Magnetism

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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #361 on: March 10, 2021, 04:16:30 pm »
I'd say Fight Club actually makes a very good counterpoint as it's an example of an adaptation that takes the themes of the original and expresses them in a thoughtful and interesting way. The way the thrill of violence is demonstrated works in contrast to the earlier scenes of the narrator's bland, bleached nine-to-five existence, and visually communicates its appeal. The film as a whole adeptly shows the progress of its lead character through its running time. 

American Psycho on the other hand flattens its narrative into a series of scenes that don't really work, converting a series of materialistic descriptions in the book to a couple of speeches, and the variety of ridiculously exquisite foods and clothes into something so bland it actually resembles the office scenes in Fight Club. It's meant to show the emptiness of conspicuous consumption and instead just makes the characters' existence look bland and cheap.

The issue isn't whether the average viewer can understand a complex premise, it's whether the film succeeds in expressing that premise coherently and thoughtfully as a piece of art. I would say one does and one doesn't. I mean, if you're judging a film on how successfully it can communicate its message to the audience as a whole, The Matrix is probably the biggest failure of all time.

Offline liverbloke

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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #362 on: March 10, 2021, 05:58:59 pm »
I'd say Fight Club actually makes a very good counterpoint as it's an example of an adaptation that takes the themes of the original and expresses them in a thoughtful and interesting way. The way the thrill of violence is demonstrated works in contrast to the earlier scenes of the narrator's bland, bleached nine-to-five existence, and visually communicates its appeal. The film as a whole adeptly shows the progress of its lead character through its running time. 

American Psycho on the other hand flattens its narrative into a series of scenes that don't really work, converting a series of materialistic descriptions in the book to a couple of speeches, and the variety of ridiculously exquisite foods and clothes into something so bland it actually resembles the office scenes in Fight Club. It's meant to show the emptiness of conspicuous consumption and instead just makes the characters' existence look bland and cheap.

The issue isn't whether the average viewer can understand a complex premise, it's whether the film succeeds in expressing that premise coherently and thoughtfully as a piece of art. I would say one does and one doesn't. I mean, if you're judging a film on how successfully it can communicate its message to the audience as a whole, The Matrix is probably the biggest failure of all time.

i guess as art is subjective and movie making is art then where you see apples i see oranges

and the bolded part of your comment i totally disagree with, though it would be great if that were the case, i think the movie maker would rather everybody understood his work and not just the people who appreciate the 'art'

but again that depends on the movie maker and, of course, the movie/piece of art
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Offline Sheer Magnetism

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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #363 on: March 10, 2021, 10:11:43 pm »
i guess as art is subjective and movie making is art then where you see apples i see oranges

and the bolded part of your comment i totally disagree with, though it would be great if that were the case, i think the movie maker would rather everybody understood his work and not just the people who appreciate the 'art'

but again that depends on the movie maker and, of course, the movie/piece of art
Of course a filmmaker wants everyone to understand their work, but that's also not realistic. Some works - and this goes for any art form - are complex and have nuances that not everyone is going to be aware of. If that wasn't the case, everything would be pitched towards a lowest common denominator audience.

And when you're talking about adapting a book into a film, whether it's faithful to the spirit of the source material is an important point. Sometimes you get something like The Shining or The Godfather (or Fight Club) which enhances it, but they're very much the exception rather than the rule.

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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #364 on: March 11, 2021, 06:41:06 am »
Of course a filmmaker wants everyone to understand their work, but that's also not realistic. Some works - and this goes for any art form - are complex and have nuances that not everyone is going to be aware of. If that wasn't the case, everything would be pitched towards a lowest common denominator audience.

And when you're talking about adapting a book into a film, whether it's faithful to the spirit of the source material is an important point. Sometimes you get something like The Shining or The Godfather (or Fight Club) which enhances it, but they're very much the exception rather than the rule.

For what it's worth, I think the better adaptations work when the writers/director understand the source material well enough but can offer a different slant to it when translating it to a visual medium. Like the examples you've mentioned but also films like Blade Runner or more recently, the Little Women adaptation which I thought was fantastic and a fresh take. It doesn't work as well when the director is interested in just the visual translation, and doesn't place enough attention on communicating the themes and motifs from the source through visuals in addition to the script. Take for example, pretty much everything Zack Snyder has done.

Offline liverbloke

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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #365 on: March 11, 2021, 08:37:51 am »
For what it's worth, I think the better adaptations work when the writers/director understand the source material well enough but can offer a different slant to it when translating it to a visual medium. Like the examples you've mentioned but also films like Blade Runner or more recently, the Little Women adaptation which I thought was fantastic and a fresh take. It doesn't work as well when the director is interested in just the visual translation, and doesn't place enough attention on communicating the themes and motifs from the source through visuals in addition to the script. Take for example, pretty much everything Zack Snyder has done.

ah but there you're starting to mess with the original interpretation - i'm okay with that but it's just how far does someone stray before the interpretation is lost

some may say that a maker's own interpretation would enhance it (within the medium of film and the power of the visual) others will always feel it strays too far from the original text

we agree that plots can be followed but can a cleverly subtly written nuance be translated visually?
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #366 on: March 11, 2021, 09:08:49 am »
thought it began well enough but then turned into something silly and, as you say, bombastic, that might please the child in some but for the mature viewer it was pretty awful in the end

i mean, come on, the awful awful awful line, which has become a 'cult' classic, 'Say hello to my little friend' - is just sooooooo embarrassing for an adult (no, not that 'adult') movie

great movie if you're 12 or under but once you've grown up then you want something more


If you want an over-rated Al Pacino movie, look no further than 'Scent of a Woman'. Fuck knows how Pacino won an Oscar for that performance. I love him in some things but at his worst he's embarrassingly over-blown.
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Offline jillcwhomever

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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #367 on: March 11, 2021, 09:12:28 am »
If you want an over-rated Al Pacino movie, look no further than 'Scent of a Woman'. Fuck knows how Pacino won an Oscar for that performance. I love him in some things but at his worst he's embarrassingly over-blown.

Dare I say this? I actually enjoyed this film.  ;D
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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #368 on: March 11, 2021, 10:07:18 am »
If you want an over-rated Al Pacino movie, look no further than 'Scent of a Woman'. Fuck knows how Pacino won an Oscar for that performance. I love him in some things but at his worst he's embarrassingly over-blown.

I can't think of Scent of a Woman without thinking of this:

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/ZR5qybydEzY" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/ZR5qybydEzY</a>

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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #369 on: March 11, 2021, 10:34:50 am »
Some actors seem to be idolized because they can do a completely implausible shouty man routine, Pacino and Walken being prime examples.
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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #370 on: March 11, 2021, 10:40:04 am »
Some actors seem to be idolized because they can do a completely implausible shouty man routine, Pacino and Walken being prime examples.

Michael Caine?
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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #371 on: March 11, 2021, 10:46:58 am »
Al Pacino is (or was) a fantastic actor, The Panic In Needle Park, Insomnia and Serpico are testament to that.  The reason he won an Oscar for Scent Of A Woman was because he was 'due' one though.  The same reason Scorsese won for The Departed, which is a solid film but way down the list when it comes to his body of work.  Personally I would of given best film and best director to Donnersmarck for The Lives Of Others but he wasn't nominated, next in line was Inarritu for Babel, in fact Eastwood had a shout for Letters From Iwo Jima.

Offline Fiasco

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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #372 on: March 11, 2021, 11:39:31 am »
Al Pacino is (or was) a fantastic actor, The Panic In Needle Park, Insomnia and Serpico are testament to that.  The reason he won an Oscar for Scent Of A Woman was because he was 'due' one though.  The same reason Scorsese won for The Departed, which is a solid film but way down the list when it comes to his body of work.  Personally I would of given best film and best director to Donnersmarck for The Lives Of Others but he wasn't nominated, next in line was Inarritu for Babel, in fact Eastwood had a shout for Letters From Iwo Jima.

Interesting point. When I first watched it I thought it was good but not spectacular, however I've probably watched it about 4 or 5 times since the first viewing and it seems to get better with each watch for me and I'm not entirely sure why that is.

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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #373 on: March 11, 2021, 01:23:17 pm »
Michael Caine?

That reminds me of the 'Italian Job'. Overrated or just showing it's age?

Mind you Matt Munro's version of 'Days like this' takes some beating.

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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #374 on: March 11, 2021, 02:02:37 pm »
I did see Michael Caine in a film once where he was supposed to have a Texan accent. That was hilariously dreadful!
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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #375 on: March 13, 2021, 04:51:40 pm »
Film snobbery is highly overrated
« Last Edit: March 13, 2021, 04:54:22 pm by dalarr »

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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #376 on: March 13, 2021, 07:55:52 pm »
David Jason.

If he were chocolate he’d fucking eat himself.

We get it. You fell through a fucking bar. It was quite funny. It wasn’t comedic genius, it was gravity. In fact, it wasn’t even the funniest thing in that scene (Triggers reaction was).

So shut the fuck up abar it, you boring self aggrandising prick.

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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #377 on: March 14, 2021, 01:39:11 pm »
David Jason.

If he were chocolate he’d fucking eat himself.

We get it. You fell through a fucking bar. It was quite funny. It wasn’t comedic genius, it was gravity. In fact, it wasn’t even the funniest thing in that scene (Triggers reaction was).

So shut the fuck up abar it, you boring self aggrandising prick.

:wellin
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Offline tubby

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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #378 on: March 14, 2021, 01:41:36 pm »
Does he actually keep going on about it without being prompted though?  If someone asks him about it, what's he supposed to do?
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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #379 on: March 14, 2021, 02:14:28 pm »
I was saying at the weekend that you have to separate musicians from their music. They were playing 'Brown-eyed Girl' on the radio which is a sublime piece of song-writing. Van Morrison is a bit of a c*nt.

Oh he is not a bit he is the full.
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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #380 on: March 14, 2021, 02:15:07 pm »
Sopranos

Breaking Bad


They where good but fuck me so much better than them.
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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #381 on: March 14, 2021, 05:33:49 pm »
Does he actually keep going on about it without being prompted though?  If someone asks him about it, what's he supposed to do?
Ive never liked him. He was on a kids show called Do Not adjust Your Set when I were a lad, it was like monty pythons for kids and half the python team were in it - real cult stuff in our school. He was the only thing about the programme that wasn't funny. I've held it against him ever since, and never watch anything he is in.
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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #382 on: March 14, 2021, 07:05:06 pm »
Sopranos

Breaking Bad


They where good but fuck me so much better than them.

Yep, they were certainly no Hetty Wainthropp Investigates...
They have life in them, they have humour, they're arrogant, they're cocky and they're proud. And that's what I want my team to be.

Offline Sarge

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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #383 on: March 14, 2021, 07:06:07 pm »
Yep, they were certainly no Hetty Wainthropp Investigates...

Dont you know it ;D
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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #384 on: March 14, 2021, 07:29:15 pm »
Ive never liked him. He was on a kids show called Do Not adjust Your Set when I were a lad, it was like monty pythons for kids and half the python team were in it - real cult stuff in our school. He was the only thing about the programme that wasn't funny. I've held it against him ever since, and never watch anything he is in.

The Darling Buds of Fucking May and the Bastard bloke in Open All hours.

Jason is definitely overrated.

Offline Sarge

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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #385 on: March 14, 2021, 07:34:33 pm »
The Darling Buds of Fucking May and the Bastard bloke in Open All hours.

Jason is definitely overrated.

My mother (72) cant stand him in pretty much anything but loves him in Frost. Mad like.
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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #386 on: March 14, 2021, 07:37:46 pm »
Agree about him being overrated, although I do still quite like Only Fools and Horses, even after all the endless repeats on UK Gold.
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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #387 on: March 14, 2021, 07:45:36 pm »
My mother (72) cant stand him in pretty much anything but loves him in Frost. Mad like.

My mother (91) loves all of the old British Detectives, Morse etc. No time for the Yanks though.

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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #388 on: March 14, 2021, 07:53:01 pm »
He was good as Count Duckula though.
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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #389 on: March 14, 2021, 08:07:02 pm »
His finest hour was as Blanco in Porridge....great character...as they all were in Porridge
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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #390 on: March 14, 2021, 08:11:47 pm »
He was good as Count Duckula though.

And Dangermouse
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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #391 on: March 14, 2021, 10:02:18 pm »
My mother (91) loves all of the old British Detectives, Morse etc. No time for the Yanks though.

Oh my Mam loves the lot, before my dad passed away he always told us he though she was planning the perfect murder from the information she got on these shows. ;D
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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #392 on: March 14, 2021, 10:02:47 pm »
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Offline liverbloke

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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #393 on: March 15, 2021, 01:23:39 pm »
harrison ford - always plays the same person, someone who looks like they've had their dinner money stolen

ferris buellers day off - is it just me that wanted to punch the smug twat

daleks - they couldn't get up the stairs and then they suddenly could fly? how the fuck did they build such big spaceships with just a kitchen sink plunger for an arm?

the mr men - nah, just joking i love them
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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #394 on: March 15, 2021, 01:27:17 pm »
Luca Brasi.

Built up as a one man killing machine and is easily killed in an empty bar.

Online Dr. Beaker

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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #395 on: March 15, 2021, 03:33:51 pm »
Opera.

And while we're at it, Handel's Messiah.
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Offline Sheer Magnetism

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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #396 on: March 15, 2021, 04:06:02 pm »
And ballet. What's so great about a bear driving around in a car?

Offline Nitramdorf

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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #397 on: March 15, 2021, 04:31:08 pm »
Charles Dickens. Ive tried and tried over the years but always struggle.

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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #398 on: March 15, 2021, 05:17:16 pm »
Charles Dickens. Ive tried and tried over the years but always struggle.

that must have been hard times

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Re: Overrated?
« Reply #399 on: March 15, 2021, 05:23:58 pm »
Blade Runner.

I’m not saying it’s not a good film, I just don’t quite get it as one of the best in it’s genre.  I watched the 4K blu ray the other night, and it’s visually stunning but the story, characters, screenplay all leave me a bit “meh”.  I’ve seen it three or four times now, and it’s not an unpleasant couple of hours but it just seems to slip out of my mind a few days later. It’s not bad, it’s just a bit forgettable.

Nothing wrong with that of course, but it just doesn’t seem worthy of it’s lofty status. I’m obviously not seeing something others are seeing.