Topic: Brexit. the Con continues

[thaddeus]

Within those five words though there's a massive scope for interpretation.  Something that was very much exploited by the various groups promoting Leave in the run-up to the referendum.

After the referendum it became just silly nonsense.  For May it was unworkable red lines that backed her into a corner and ultimately ruined her.  For Johnson it was a fudge to win a GE and kick the can down the road.  For Corbyn and Starmer it was a sop to hold onto some voters wedded to Brexit.  For Truss it was evidencing she was a true Brexit believer so she could concentrate on her economic fantasies.

There are options for technically leaving the EU but still retaining very close relations.  Staying within the single market and the customs union would do that but arguably that ship has sailed.  It would also be a tough sell to say that we're now accepting Freedom of Movement again and remaining subject to the European Court of Justice.

Assuming Starmer won't have the courage to advocate rejoining the EU then it would be good to know how his "making it work" differs from the earlier attempts.  Not having the ERG screaming in his lughole would at least give him some capacity for exploring options.

[SouthDerryLaggo]

NI Protocol getting mentioned on BBC this morning. Most of us here support it as its been good for us and it really fucks me off that the only narrative mentioned is the DUP one whereby they are using it as a reason not to go into government. The real reason is actually that there is a Sinn Fein first minister and they can't stomach it. A new election will be called shortly and the DUP will circle the wagons, rabble rouse, fear monger and probably get a few "united unionist" candidates on board to ensure DUP becomes the biggest party again. They will cite an "ammendement" to the protocol and then elect their own first minister. The north is a fucking cesspit.

[Nobby Reserve]

NI Protocol getting mentioned on BBC this morning. Most of us here support it as its been good for us and it really fucks me off that the only narrative mentioned is the DUP one whereby they are using it as a reason not to go into government. The real reason is actually that there is a Sinn Fein first minister and they can't stomach it. A new election will be called shortly and the DUP will circle the wagons, rabble rouse, fear monger and probably get a few "united unionist" candidates on board to ensure DUP becomes the biggest party again. They will cite an "ammendement" to the protocol and then elect their own first minister. The north is a fucking cesspit.

From what I've heard, an element of DUP opposition to the NIP is that the 'Loyalist' paramilitaries-cum-drug-smugglers-and-general-organised-crime shitstains - that are very closely linked to the bowler-hatted bigots - have faced problems with having a number of their drug imports from the UK busted due to border checks.

[SouthDerryLaggo]

From what I've heard, an element of DUP opposition to the NIP is that the 'Loyalist' paramilitaries-cum-drug-smugglers-and-general-organised-crime shitstains - that are very closely linked to the bowler-hatted bigots - have faced problems with having a number of their drug imports from the UK busted due to border checks.

haven't considered this reason, but it makes sense. The main premise they seem to be going with is that it differs NI to the rest of Britain (like many other things do in reality) so they would rather be worse off but "more British".

[Red-Soldier]

Brexit red tape puts brakes on UK innovation and EU sales

Many new products now need multiple safety test facilities for home and abroad, say entrepreneurs

British inventions are being brought to market overseas because new Brexit safety certification rules mean they can’t be sold in the UK.

Trade bodies and entrepreneurs have blamed the government’s decision to stop accepting the European Union’s CE mark and instead create a new UK Conformity Assessed (UKCA) mark showing that a product is safe.

When the new system is in place, it means a manufacturer will need to pass one set of tests for the EU and another for the UK, creating extra layers of red tape. But some things cannot yet be tested because the UK has no facilities to test building products including glue, sealants and glass, or some medical supplies.

An entrepreneur in the UK told the Observer that he had not been able to have a medical device certified in the UK or EU and so had set up a company in the US, where the product will be manufactured and sold. Medical industry sources said British companies were also setting up divisions in Japan.

The change from CE to UKCA was meant to happen last year but was delayed and will now come into effect on 31 December 2022 at midnight, European time. But ministers further delayed compulsory UKCA markings for electrical products like iPhones, so CE markings can still be used until 2025.

Then, last week, the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency announced that it was recommending a delay until July 2024 for medical products.

Yet some sectors will still face a cliff edge on New Year’s Day, and the Construction Leadership Council, representing the building industry, wrote to new business secretary Grant Shapps and new housing secretary Fuckwitted Pob lookalike Michael Gove last week, warning them that plans for new homes, schools and hospitals were being affected. “Approximately 28% of products are imported, and half of [those] from the EU, and therefore these products are also affected,” the letter states. “As a result, many global manufacturers now regard the UK as just too difficult to do business with, which has resulted in products being withdrawn – impacting on the UK’s ability to deliver completed projects.”

One of the letter’s authors, Peter Caplehorn, chief executive of the Construction Products Association, said: “This is affecting inward investment [and] innovation. Products are under continuous development and, from the turn of the year, if any product is substantially changed or upgraded, then it will need recertification.

“We’ve got one testing facility in the UK [for] radiators. And they’ve done an analysis on the amount of radiators that they put through their system. If they have to retest all of them, it would take 75 years.”

Steve Lee, director of diagnostics regulation for the Association of British Healthtech Industries (ABHI), said the MHRA’s delay would be helpful, but the uncertainty was already causing serious problems. “People are not seeing the UK or the EU as a place to innovate and bring new products to market,” he said. “People are looking at other jurisdictions because the regulatory landscape is so uncertain.”

A major change to EU legislation means that manufacturers face a similar problem in Europe. The changes – introduced after scandals relating to ruptured breast implants and metal-on-metal hip implants – have also caused a backlog in medical device testing in the EU. One in 10 of the UK’s medical device manufacturers has stopped attempting to innovate, according to an ABHI survey of its members.

Around 600,000 medical products – from syringes and surgical instruments to HIV tests and prosthetic hips – are used in the UK, but ABHI members reported in a survey this month that one in five will be taken off the market in the next five years. Two-thirds expect new devices will be delayed in coming to the UK. “Almost certainly there will be products which are either temporarily or permanently unavailable for use in the UK,” Lee said.

The British Chambers of Commerce (BCC) said there was more uncertainty arising from the government’s decision to allow CE-marked products in Northern Ireland, which has no trade barriers with the EU.

“By the end of 2025, CE-marked products made in Northern Ireland will be able to circulate in Britain, but those from the EU, Switzerland or Turkey won’t,” said William Bain, the BCC’s head of trade policy. “How will they differentiate between products made in Northern Ireland and those that are imported into Northern Ireland and then sent over to Great Britain? All of that needs to be resolved, and it’s causing great uncertainty.”

Manufacturers represented by Make UK want ministers to phase in regulations, and three quarters want the CE mark to continue to be recognised. If UK regulations diverge substantially, two identical cars for the UK and EU might need to be made with hundreds of different components.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/oct/29/brexit-red-tape-puts-brakes-on-uk-innovation-and-eu-sales

[Jiminy Cricket]

Brexit red tape puts brakes on UK innovation and EU sales

Many new products now need multiple safety test facilities for home and abroad, say entrepreneurs
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/oct/29/brexit-red-tape-puts-brakes-on-uk-innovation-and-eu-sales

Winning - Brexit UK is always winning.

[oldfordie]

Brexit red tape puts brakes on UK innovation and EU sales

Many new products now need multiple safety test facilities for home and abroad, say entrepreneurs
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/oct/29/brexit-red-tape-puts-brakes-on-uk-innovation-and-eu-sales

Remain. That's the brilliance of the Single Market, all the rules, regulations+standards are agreed by all the 28 European countries in the EU. this cuts out all the red tape. what's legal in any city in the UK is legal in any country inside the EU.
Leave. When we leave the EU we will be free to bring our own standards in, these standards can be better than the rest of Europe.  hows that working out?

This was certain to happen, the idea of nobody knowing what would happen after Brexit was ridicules. it only showed those people didn't understand the problems that would come from us moving away from EU harmonisation of standards+rules etc.

[redbyrdz]

Brexit red tape puts brakes on UK innovation and EU sales

Many new products now need multiple safety test facilities for home and abroad, say entrepreneurs
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/oct/29/brexit-red-tape-puts-brakes-on-uk-innovation-and-eu-sales

Absolute fucking fuckwits. Wonder when the first person will die because of insane decisions like that.



Shopping trips to Belfast might become a tourist attraction.

[PaulF]

Not really Brexit related, but the UK does have something to be mostly proud of

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=139Q61ty4C0

(fair few geeks in here I think that will appreciate this)

[Jiminy Cricket]

Not really Brexit related, but the UK does have something to be mostly proud of

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=139Q61ty4C0

(fair few geeks in here I think that will appreciate this)

Not an electrical geek, but he appears to incorrect about load balancing on a ring mains ('You don't want to have a lot of your power consumed on a portion of the ring. You want to distribute that throughout the ring as much as possible').* So what he claims as a negative is not really the case. The ring potentially allows for twice the current of a radial circuit (for given diameter of cable).

Anyway, certainly not a benefit of Brexit, since these standards existed before, during , and after EU membership. I wonder if we will even find a benefit to Brexit? But, yeah, I've long admired the British domestic mains plug and socket design. And even more so after I lived in the US.

* Unless there is a highly loaded spur, but he did not mention this. The only other possible issue with balancing is if there is a large load towards one end of the ring (this would disproportionately load the short end of the ring). But even this, in practice, should not be a problem because the mains cable is (or should be) rated significantly higher than the circuit breaker. I expect there are one or more electrical engineers here who will know better than me, so maybe they will comment or correct me.

[PaulF]

I think some electricians in the comments agree with you JC. Though to be honest it's beyond me.
Just seemed on the whole good British engineering . Especially the safety features. Though I guess that's h&s gone mad when we could have ,smaller , more aesthetic , cheaper plugs....

[So… Howard Philips]

Mersey ferry to be partly built in the Netherlands. So this what regaining sovereignty looks like?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-63555049

[rob1966]

Mersey ferry to be partly built in the Netherlands. So this what regaining sovereignty looks like?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-63555049

Cousin works for Lairds and was banging on about Brexit being great and how it would allow them to build more ships. Bet he feels fucking wonderful today

[PaulF]

Cousin works for Lairds and was banging on about Brexit being great and how it would allow them to build more ships. Bet he feels fucking wonderful today

Well, there is that new flagship to replace brittania. .... Oh wait.

[BarryCrocker]

You can't alway get what you want. You get what you ask for.

It’s so bad that the boss of high street chain Next is calling on the government to allow more foreign workers into the UK, to help address chronic labour shortages that are hurting the economy.

Simon Wolfson, who was one of the most prominent business leaders backing the UK leaving the European Union, now fears the UK’s current immigration policy is crippling economic growth.

In an interview with the BBC, Lord Wolfson said that blocking foreign workers has a considerable cost to the UK economy.

He points out:

“We have got people queuing up to come to this country to pick crops that are rotting in fields, to work in warehouses that otherwise wouldn’t be operable, and we’re not letting them in.
“And we have to take a different approach to economically productive migration.”
Wolfson admits that this is not the Brexit that he – or most people – wanted, saying:

“I think in respect of immigration, it’s definitely not the Brexit that I wanted, or indeed, many of people who voted Brexit, but more importantly, the vast majority of the country,” he said.
“And we have to remember, you know, we’re all stuck in this Brexit argument, we have to remember that what post-Brexit Britain looks like, is not the preserve of those people that voted Brexit, it’s for all of us to decide.”

Back in 2016, Wolfson had a much cheerier view, declaring that “On balance, I think we will be better off out”, and that without radical change the UK was “heading for a long era of low growth”.

But now, the UK is facing its longest recession in decades, while the rise in long-term sickness pushed vacancies to record levels earlier this year.

[redbyrdz]

It still amazes me that these big business leaders did not understand what the EU gave them.

[rob1966]

It still amazes me that these big business leaders did not understand what the EU gave them.

Greed does that to them.

[Jiminy Cricket]

It still amazes me that these big business leaders did not understand what the EU gave them.

I suppose, though, we should greet his words positively - he is surely in the small minority of industry leaders who have put up their hands and admitted* that they were not only wrong, but that Brexit is a complete shit show.

* Yeah, he parsed his words a little too carefully - he did not offer a full-throated apology. But still, it is welcome.

[nayia2002]

It still amazes me that these big business leaders did not understand what the EU gave them.

Indeed mate the mind boggles

[nayia2002]

Greed does that to them.

Yep tax avoidance/evasion which would of been very hard to carry on doing if stayed within EU.
You know "red tape"

[PaulF]

Yep tax avoidance/evasion which would of been very hard to carry on doing if stayed within EU.
You know "red tape"

As a CEO of a listed company though. Would he be getting those benefits?  I'm sure there's enough regular tax avoidance loopholes, even while in the EU for people in those circles.
Even just maxing out the pension allowance is a decent start.

I wonder how many CEOs spoke on behalf of the firm in some cases, but had different personal views.

[Libertine]

Not that kind of Brexit. I wanted the sunlit uplands version.

[PaulF]

Not that kind of Brexit. I wanted the sunlit uplands version.

The one where unicorns shit rainbows on your blue passport?

[thaddeus]

Simon Wolfson's solution makes about as much sense as his backing Brexit in the first place.  Paying a 10% tax on foreign worker salaries would just encourage them to pay said workers at least 10% less.

It was always a promised benefit of Brexit that the UK would move to being a highly skilled and highly paid workforce.  I think there was supposed to be something about automation and productivity increases alongside that - the "bonfire of red tape" was an assured solution to the latter - but not seen much of that so far.

[TSC]

You can't alway get what you want. You get what you ask for.

He should just get on with it instead of crying

[reddebs]

Simon Wolfson's solution makes about as much sense as his backing Brexit in the first place.  Paying a 10% tax on foreign worker salaries would just encourage them to pay said workers at least 10% less.

It was always a promised benefit of Brexit that the UK would move to being a highly skilled and highly paid workforce.  I think there was supposed to be something about automation and productivity increases alongside that - the "bonfire of red tape" was an assured solution to the latter - but not seen much of that so far.

Maybe if they offered an extra 10% to the basic pay there wouldn't be such a shortage of staff 🤔

[PaulF]

Maybe if they offered an extra 10% to the basic pay there wouldn't be such a shortage of staff 🤔

Or nearer 17% if you look at what nurses are looking for.

When was the last time they had a pay rise that wasn't a real terms pay cut?

[PaulF]

By Blue Passport arrived today

[reddebs]

Or nearer 17% if you look at what nurses are looking for.

When was the last time they had a pay rise that wasn't a real terms pay cut?

My point was they all need paying properly. 

Pay everyone properly using all those excessive profits the big corps make and nobody needs to get top up fucking benefits that other working families are paying for through the taxes they pay.

[rob1966]

By Blue Passport arrived today

Shite aren't they?

[Jiminy Cricket]

By Blue Passport arrived today

Tory!

I have a lovely maroon Irish passport with EU symbols and everything.

[oldfordie]

From what I've heard, an element of DUP opposition to the NIP is that the 'Loyalist' paramilitaries-cum-drug-smugglers-and-general-organised-crime shitstains - that are very closely linked to the bowler-hatted bigots - have faced problems with having a number of their drug imports from the UK busted due to border checks.

We have always had checks for drugs and weapons. frictionless trading didn't stop those checks. no drug dealer is going to fill in any form entering Heroin and that's what frictionless trading is about. filling in forms. the DUP is just looking for reasons to oppose the protocol. stopping drugs entering the country is about intelligence, the drugs will still come in even under the system they want as filling in forms won't stop it.

[Jiminy Cricket]

We have always had checks for drugs and weapons. frictionless trading didn't stop those checks. no drug dealer is going to fill in any form entering Heroin and that's what frictionless trading is about. filling in forms. the DUP is just looking for reasons to oppose the protocol. stopping drugs entering the country is about intelligence, the drugs will still come in even under the system they want as filling in forms won't stop it.

Yes. But since there are now general checks carried out (on all vehicles or randomly?), there surely will be many incidental discoveries of drugs.

[oldfordie]

Yes. But since there are now general checks carried out (on all vehicles or randomly?), there surely will be many incidental discoveries of drugs.

Checks on lorrys carrying goods that need declaring or random checks on any lorry. I thought the Protocol agreement allowed most of the goods to enter without checks, that seems to be the gripe JRM keep making, food going to Supermarkets in NI can go to the Republic as nobody checks were they go. he thinks this is why we should get rid of the protocol.
Even if there is the odd check would they strip the lorry down looking for drugs without good reason. the checks are about making sure the goods in the lorry match what's on the declaration form and as I say no drug dealer is going to enter Heroin, they will also know how to get around those random checks. it still all boils down to intelligence under both systems.

[PaulF]

Tory!

I have a lovely maroon Irish passport with EU symbols and everything.

I thought there was an option to still have an EU passport

this is currently making my blood boil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7i-JIw1zig

Not sure how it crept into my feed. Most of my youtube is filled with Scott Bradlee

[Riquende]

Tory!

I have a lovely maroon Irish passport with EU symbols and everything.

I got in on the last batch of maroon ones... doesn't have the EU on the front cover but is the right colour.

Apparently they were only issued between March 2019 and March 2020, after the original withdrawal date and before the blue ones were produced.

I'll be loath to lose it in 7 years.

[rob1966]

I got in on the last batch of maroon ones... doesn't have the EU on the front cover but is the right colour.

Apparently they were only issued between March 2019 and March 2020, after the original withdrawal date and before the blue ones were produced.

I'll be loath to lose it in 7 years.

My youngest needed a new one in 2020, as he was 10, so he got a blue one, the eldest is 15 next year so he's getting a blue one soon, I've got about 5 years left on mine as does the missus.

I'll be loathe to lose mine too.

[stoa]

Yep tax avoidance/evasion which would of been very hard to carry on doing if stayed within EU.
You know "red tape"

The issue I have with that kind of rationale though is that, no matter what kind of tax evasion he could be doing (either as a private citizen or as a CEO for his company) is that with business going down because of Brexit he'll make less money (unless he his pay is not dependant on how his company is doing) and his company will make less money. So, no matter if you look at it as a private citizen or as the CEO of a company there's just less money you get from avoiding tax payments. That's the completely baffling thing. There seem to have been so many people who had no clue what leaving the EU would mean for their business. It's even worse for those  running smaller companies like all the fishermen. At the end of the day, the CEO-guy won't have to go to a foodbank no matter how much business goes down for his companies. People running smaller businesses will lose it all though. Saw a video by the Guardian (I think) about what has happened in Grimsby and it's fucking brutal.´

That's what's the worst thing about Brexit. All those rich c*nts who promoted it will not feel it except for maybe not being able to buy three new ivory backscratchers and having to settle for one or two instead, while loads of people with less money who believed them are struggling to put food on the table. That's absolutely horrible and I'm not really on the side of people having sympathy for those who voted Brexit. At the end of the day, they're getting what they voted for and it's their own fault. However, seeing stuff like foodbanks not having enough stuff to give to people, because there are so many who need support and because they're getting fewer donations, is just heartbreaking...

[redbyrdz]

BBC reporting about the recession, not one word about Brexit
Other economies are also struggling, but the UK is the only one actually in recession. No further comment.

[oldfordie]

The issue I have with that kind of rationale though is that, no matter what kind of tax evasion he could be doing (either as a private citizen or as a CEO for his company) is that with business going down because of Brexit he'll make less money (unless he his pay is not dependant on how his company is doing) and his company will make less money. So, no matter if you look at it as a private citizen or as the CEO of a company there's just less money you get from avoiding tax payments. That's the completely baffling thing. There seem to have been so many people who had no clue what leaving the EU would mean for their business. It's even worse for those  running smaller companies like all the fishermen. At the end of the day, the CEO-guy won't have to go to a foodbank no matter how much business goes down for his companies. People running smaller businesses will lose it all though. Saw a video by the Guardian (I think) about what has happened in Grimsby and it's fucking brutal.´

That's what's the worst thing about Brexit. All those rich c*nts who promoted it will not feel it except for maybe not being able to buy three new ivory backscratchers and having to settle for one or two instead, while loads of people with less money who believed them are struggling to put food on the table. That's absolutely horrible and I'm not really on the side of people having sympathy for those who voted Brexit. At the end of the day, they're getting what they voted for and it's their own fault. However, seeing stuff like foodbanks not having enough stuff to give to people, because there are so many who need support and because they're getting fewer donations, is just heartbreaking...

Yep. I would of thought people would have learned from the Thatcher period. every business is affected by a recession, I think people think their buisness won't be affected by leaving the EU as they don't import or export so they carry on with the Torys will give us tax breaks thinking.
Tax breaks aren't that useful when your shops boarded up due to people struggling  to pay for the basics. remember watching a pro brexit Fireplace shop owner banging on about Brexit. he must of thought he was immune and the good old Torys will look after his interest alright. wonder how many people will be walking into his shop now.