Topic: The Murder of George Floyd and Black Lives Matter.

[John C]

I'm sorry the idea of some panes of glass being smashed and taking some tvs or trainers as part of the collateral damage in an attempt to overhaul a racist and corrupt system offends you all so greatly.

Such things could never be replaced. We mustn't lose sight of the importance of preserving *checks notes*... property.

Did you see the video of the black lady protecting her own shop from looters and when the Police arrived the first thing they did was grab her. It was only that a journalist persistently shouted that they didn't take her away.

[MBL?]

How many looting examples are there at this point? Most of what I’ve seen is police attacking protesters who are doing fuck all.

[TepidT2O]

Not to mention shops will probably increase prices to get some money back and that lessens the purchasing power of poorer people.

One of the significant issues the United States faces is that it is a collection of States.

Federal control is incredibly complex when so much control is devolved to states who can set their own taxes, laws and have controls over police at different levels.

It’s made levelling the playing field much more difficult than in other countries.  Add to that the existence of slavery only a hundred and odd years ago and active apartheid in some states not far behind my life time and you’ve got problems that won’t be solved for probably hundreds of years.  Their system allows racism to flourish in pockets and it then spreads like wildfire.

There’s horrific injustice in the US, more so than I’ve seen anywhere else, it’s an incredible country in so many ways, but it’s also openly racist against black peoples and Hispanic people’s , this is state sponsored and evident even in schools

So it isn’t one problem you have to solve but 50 problems (or however many states there are).

But things have changed, Obama did get elected and it would be stupid to dismiss his election as a blip or him ‘not really being black’.  Sure,  he had to be almost the greatest of men to get elected, but he did.

Two steps forwards one step back... although maybe Trump is two steps back?

[Snail]

This thread is a car crash. Say his name. George Floyd.

[Gerry Attrick]

One of the significant issues the United States faces is that it is a collection of States.

Federal control is incredibly complex when so much control is devolved to states who can set their own taxes, laws and have controls over police at different levels.

It’s made levelling the playing field much more difficult than in other countries.  Add to that the existence of slavery only a hundred and odd years ago and active apartheid in some states not far behind my life time and you’ve got problems that won’t be solved for probably hundreds of years.  Their system allows racism to flourish in pockets and it then spreads like wildfire.

There’s horrific injustice in the US, more so than I’ve seen anywhere else, it’s an incredible country in so many ways, but it’s also openly racist against black peoples and Hispanic people’s , this is state sponsored and evident even in schools

So it isn’t one problem you have to solve but 50 problems (or however many states there are).

But things have changed, Obama did get elected and it would be stupid to dismiss his election as a blip or him ‘not really being black’.  Sure,  he had to be almost the greatest of men to get elected, but he did.

Two steps forwards one step back... although maybe Trump is two steps back?

I agree, I've posted on here that some states are almost incompatible with each other. Compare and contrast between Los Angeles and Indiana, they're as different as Berlin and Moscow.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Of course, it has.

It is what fascist dictators do. They divide and conquer. It isn't about colour look at Hitler targeting Jews.

It's not because this protest has existed in the past. This is one particular issue, which is not to say that there aren't other issues that exist.

[TepidT2O]

I agree, I've posted on here that some states are almost incompatible with each other. Compare and contrast between Los Angeles and Indiana, they're as different as Berlin and Moscow.

California and Texas..... they are different countries,.


If Texas were an independent country everyone would have gone to war with it.  The state system gives it an odd protection for its extremism

[MBL?]

Corporations employ people.  Smash up their shops? They won’t return.

People suffer, real people suffer when small businesses are damaged, but also when big Ines are damaged. The big ones have more capacity to absorb it, but only the stupidly naive can’t see that damaging people’s jobs and livelihoods always has an affect on real people in the street.

Not to mention shops will probably increase prices to get some money back and that lessens the purchasing power of poorer people.

What way should they go about it then?

If they disrupt as much as possible it will give them a better chance of reaching the goal of equality. Asking nicely has never worked for them and they’ve been doing that for years.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

I do not know.

But what is clear as fucking day, if you wish to see it, is that the current system is failing and isnt fit for purpose.

Whatever the new constitution or legislation or entire political system it is that replaces what's currently in place won't come about however if the US continues to sleepwalk idly down the current path it is doing.

How many decades need to be lost to system racism before you just try and new system?

I'm not arguing that 'the system' is working in America. The point I'm making is that is easy to cry out for revolution but much harder to work out what you want to happen next. Until you can coherently answer the latter question it's pretty irresponsible to be calling out for revolution I think. The question regarding free elections is an important one - the electoral history of the US suggests that even with properly universal suffrage they will elect a centrist/centre left government and return to the status quo - so the revolution will have achieved nothing.

Just talking about 'the system' is a massive generalisation. I think it is far more productive to try and identify the specific components of the system that you think are not working and are unique to the USA and once you have those you can have a more sensible conversation about whether it is impossible to change those components without revolution and if so what the revolution would put in place.

[TepidT2O]

What way should they go about it then?

If they disrupt as much as possible it will give them a better chance of reaching the goal of equality. Asking nicely has never worked for them and they’ve been doing that for years.

To be honest most of the footage I’ve seen has been of white people looting shops.... which is really just, well theft.

[MBL?]

Keep looking.

No need to. Looting always happens in situations like this and if people choose to lay blame there they can work away. Like the violence I mentioned it is a bi product.

[Caligula?]

No need to. Looting always happens in situations like this and if people choose to lay blame there they can work away. Like the violence I mentioned it is a bi product.

You're completely missing the point. It's not that looting inevitably happens in situations like these or that there aren't that many examples of it. There's someone on here arguing that looting should happen in order to bring about change when there are people from the movement condemning it and saying that it's a distraction from their real message and what they want to get across. Not to mention that Trump and his minions are conveniently using the looters to tar everyone with the same brush, peaceful protesters included, in order to send out more law enforcement in order to commit unspeakable acts of violence against them.

[Eeyore]

To be honest most of the footage I’ve seen has been of white people looting shops.... which is really just, well theft.

Probably closer to left wing anarchists looking for anarchy.

[Eeyore]

It's not because this protest has existed in the past. This is one particular issue, which is not to say that there aren't other issues that exist.

Are you saying that Mexicans don't care about racism against black people and the black people don't care about racism against Mexicans ?

[Cpt_Reina]

I'm not arguing that 'the system' is working in America. The point I'm making is that is easy to cry out for revolution but much harder to work out what you want to happen next. Until you can coherently answer the latter question it's pretty irresponsible to be calling out for revolution I think. The question regarding free elections is an important one - the electoral history of the US suggests that even with properly universal suffrage they will elect a centrist/centre left government and return to the status quo - so the revolution will have achieved nothing.

Just talking about 'the system' is a massive generalisation. I think it is far more productive to try and identify the specific components of the system that you think are not working and are unique to the USA and once you have those you can have a more sensible conversation about whether it is impossible to change those components without revolution and if so what the revolution would put in place.

All well and good my man. Ideally I wouldn't disagree.

But do you not think smarter, more engaged, more able people than ourselves have attempted this already?

Revolutions are not held by committees are they? There's an element of anarchy about them simply because there has to be. They're periods of action not theory.

You don't sign off on or agree a revolt prior to it happening. There's no rubber stamp for it or vote to be held.

People mobilise because they feel they have to and they act against and rebel against the things they feel the need to. You pick up the pieces once the dust has settled.

[Gnurglan]

What way should they go about it then?

If they disrupt as much as possible it will give them a better chance of reaching the goal of equality. Asking nicely has never worked for them and they’ve been doing that for years.

They looters attack the wrong things. If they believe they can change America by smashing up a local electronics or grocery store, I think it's fair to say they should rethink their strategy.

[Cpt_Reina]

You're completely missing the point. It's not that looting inevitably happens in situations like these or that there aren't that many examples of it. There's someone on here arguing that looting should happen in order to bring about change when there are people from the movement condemning it and saying that it's a distraction from their real message and what they want to get across. Not to mention that Trump and his minions are conveniently using the looters to tar everyone with the same brush, peaceful protesters included, in order to send out more law enforcement in order to commit unspeakable acts of violence against them.

I'm saying the looting is unimportant. Because it is.

[Eeyore]

No need to. Looting always happens in situations like this and if people choose to lay blame there they can work away. Like the violence I mentioned it is a bi product.

Somehow I don't think the likes of Ghandi or Martin Luther King would agree with you.

[Eeyore]

I'm saying the looting is unimportant. Because it is.

It isn't, it gives your opponent a massive opportunity to discredit you and fuels their prejudices.

[MBL?]

You're completely missing the point. It's not that looting inevitably happens in situations like these or that there aren't that many examples of it. There's someone on here arguing that looting should happen in order to bring about change when there are people from the movement condemning it and saying that it's a distraction from their real message and what they want to get across. Not to mention that Trump and his minions are conveniently using the looters to tar everyone with the same brush, peaceful protesters included, in order to send out more law enforcement in order to commit unspeakable acts of violence against them.

looting will happen and what way it is painted by racists matters not.

Also when you think about it looting will help bring about change. All of these shops have insurance, from a mom and pop to a multinational. Do you think there’s no point where large insurance companies don’t put pressure on government because their claims are through the roof?

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Are you saying that Mexicans don't care about racism against black people and the black people don't care about racism against Mexicans ?

No that's not what I'm saying. I am saying that the Black Lives Matter movement didn't start because of Mexicans and their issues with Trump, and it has nothing to do with their issues with Trump.

[Red Beret]

People should read up on Lyndon B Johnson, and how a combination of Vietnam and race riots destroyed his presidency, despite his legislation to expand civil rights, medicare and medicaid, boosts to the arts and rural America, and helping millions out of poverty.

What America needs is a 21st Century version of the New Deal, but that's all I'll say in this thread for the time being now.

[Caligula?]

I'm saying the looting is unimportant. Because it is.

Like Al said, Trump is having a field day with it. In his mind, there's no difference between the looters and the protesters. The ones looting are doing more harm than good, and in most instances they're actually stealing from small businesses owned by minorities. Advocate for protests and even riots, but not for looting.

[ljycb]

It isn't, it gives your opponent a massive opportunity to discredit you and fuels their prejudices.

The opponent would be discrediting protesters regardless.

[John C]

The influence of the Police Union is being discussed on Newsnight now.

[Red Beret]

I'm saying the looting is unimportant. Because it is.

What an idiotic comment.  Small businesses are already on their arse because of a pandemic.  Getting your store turned over and maybe torched during a riot is the last thing somebody needs.  Protests show the need for dialogue.  But anarchy will just get people killed.

[MBL?]

They looters attack the wrong things. If they believe they can change America by smashing up a local electronics or grocery store, I think it's fair to say they should rethink their strategy.

its not all one ethos. The ones looting are more likely opportunist where as others are idealist and are not looting.

I still really haven’t seen looting on a mass scale for it to be even important in this whole conversation.

[Caligula?]

looting will happen and what way it is painted by racists matters not.

Also when you think about it looting will help bring about change. All of these shops have insurance, from a mom and pop to a multinational. Do you think there’s no point where large insurance companies don’t put pressure on government because their claims are through the roof?

How is looting going to help bring about change except put more people in prison and rile up law enforcement even more than they already are, as we've already witnessed? And how do you know that the insurance they have will cover everything that's been stolen and/or destroyed? In some instances, if not most, it won't. And as for putting pressure on the government, do you really think Trump will give a shit when in his mind the looters and protesters are one and the same? All it does is to massively turn people against your cause. It's easy for you to say but if someone destroys your business and livelihood and the one thing that feeds your family, the bitterness and anger you may feel might cause you to commit unspeakable acts that you never would have thought of doing previously.

[Eeyore]

The opponent would be discrediting protesters regardless.

There is a massive difference between discrediting people kneeling down and shouting please don't shoot and people who are basically stealing things.

[Eeyore]

its not all one ethos. The ones looting are more likely opportunist where as others are idealist and are not looting.

I still really haven’t seen looting on a mass scale for it to be even important in this whole conversation.

Then use your fucking brain and attack the opportunists who are stealing and praise the people doing it for the right reason.

[Snail]

I still really haven’t seen looting on a mass scale for it to be even important in this whole conversation.

Nope, and yet it's all anyone's talking about. Good job guys.

[ljycb]

There is a massive difference between discrediting people kneeling down and shouting please don't shoot and people who are basically stealing things.

Look at how rattled the right-wing press were by Kaepernick. There is no difference. The opponent will discredit any form of protest because they fundamentally do not agree with the reasons for it.

[Snail]

Huge crowd in Boston.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Huge crowd in Boston.

And Boston has had a history of being a racist city

[Gnurglan]

looting will happen and what way it is painted by racists matters not.

Also when you think about it looting will help bring about change. All of these shops have insurance, from a mom and pop to a multinational. Do you think there’s no point where large insurance companies don’t put pressure on government because their claims are through the roof?

Imagine looters came to where you work or where you live. They smash up your place and take your belongings. Do you side with the looters or the police?

[MBL?]

How is looting going to help bring about change except put more people in prison and rile up law enforcement even more than they already are, as we've already witnessed? And how do you know that the insurance they have will cover everything that's been stolen and/or destroyed? In some instances, if not most, it won't. And as for putting pressure on the government, do you really think Trump will give a shit when in his mind the looters and protesters are one and the same? All it does is to massively turn people against your cause. It's easy for you to say but if someone destroys your business and livelihood and the one thing that feeds your family, the bitterness and anger you may feel might cause you to commit unspeakable acts that you never would have thought of doing previously.

They get put in jail for fuck all anyway as it is for sitting on the ground or peacefully protesting which is a right. the police as evidenced need no reason to be absolute c*nts.

Im not going to pretend I know what insurance covers over there and I’m not sure how you know they won’t be covered? What I do know is that insurance companies have massive power and that money is the only language trump speaks even if he doesn’t understand it fully.

If it turns people against the cause fuck em. They are wrong.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

All well and good my man. Ideally I wouldn't disagree.

But do you not think smarter, more engaged, more able people than ourselves have attempted this already?

Revolutions are not held by committees are they? There's an element of anarchy about them simply because there has to be. They're periods of action not theory.

You don't sign off on or agree a revolt prior to it happening. There's no rubber stamp for it or vote to be held.

People mobilise because they feel they have to and they act against and rebel against the things they feel the need to. You pick up the pieces once the dust has settled.

I'd disagree actually. South Africa is the obvious example where significant positive societal and political changes were made through bilateral political processes (or to use your phrase 'by committee') and not through political or popular revolt. Less extreme but much closer to home you could also look at the Northern Irish peace process.

Of course it is important to point out in the current context that those processes and the change to the 'status quo' were only made possible by significant public protest, civil disobedience and sadly also loss of innocent lives. Maybe the USA is approaching that situation. But it is important to point out that this does not mean that 'revolution' is the inevitable end game.

[The North Bank]

Imagine looters came to where you work or where you live. They smash up your place and take your belongings. Do you side with the looters or the police?

Imagine black people not getting executed on a regular basis by police officers, then you don't have to imagine anything else.

[Crimson_Tank]

And Boston has had a history of being a racist city

Boston also has a rich history of Protests Against Unjust Power Systems throughout US History.

[TepidT2O]

I'd disagree actually. South Africa is the obvious example where significant positive societal and political changes were made through bilateral political processes (or to use your phrase 'by committee') and not through political or popular revolt. Less extreme but much closer to home you could also look at the Northern Irish peace process.

Of course it is important to point out in the current context that those processes and the change to the 'status quo' were only made possible by significant public protest, civil disobedience and sadly also loss of innocent lives. Maybe the USA is approaching that situation. But it is important to point out that this does not mean that 'revolution' is the inevitable end game.

The US isn’t approaching  revolution. Why are we entertaining such absurdity?

It’s the richest most powerful country on earth, they just need to open up that American dream to everyone