Topic: European Champions Draft Final, Mikey vs Viva Bobby

[deFacto please, you bastards]

The final showdown. Who takes the crown? 



Mikey




Viva Bobby

[tubby]

Undecided at the moment, need to hear some arguments for either side.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Undecided at the moment, need to hear some arguments for either side.

Would like to see that too.

[vivabobbygraham]

Six German internationals, four of them schooled at Bayern, with Kaltz and Babbel able to alternate on the right and Steilike and Breitner similarly on the left without losing that German organisation and determination to keep clean sheets. All conditioned to play important finals for club and Country and a rock solid base for the front 4. Rivera and Cruyff in tandem would be something special; Deco has merit and say what you like about Van Persie but he knows where the net is...and he would get plenty of opportunities to prove that.

4231 could become 433 easily whilst 343 with Steilike moving into the midfield as he did so well for Madrid gives the team such flexibility. Dutch magic, with a hint of Portuguese and Italian spice, grounded in German resilience makes my team hard to beat....and then there's Cruyff...

EDIT: ...Not forgetting Zubizarreta in goal...

Regarding this final rematch, I would hope my German rearguard could cope with mikey’s front three. Organised and resilient, they would need to be against the guile and endeavour of Rushy and KK. I fashioned the German axis of a back four and two in midfield safe in the knowledge they would bring me discipline, be well drilled and solid allowing my front four to be on the front foot led with the fluidity and flair of the Dutch master and his acolytes. I can foresee joy down mikey’s flanks against his two full backs.

However, at the back, that CB partnership is the best in the draft. Outstanding pair and my boys would have to be at their very best to penetrate it. It could only be bettered by adding my boy Schwartzenbeck who was The Kaisers sidekick for club and country for many years where they won a sackful of trophies together including 74 World Cup. For me, the game boils down to Cruyff v Beckenbauer. Whoever wins that duel wins the game.

Good luck, mikey.

[mikey_LFC]

Two very good sides. But ones a team of sidekicks and the other of main men.

My teams main weakness is Adriano but Viva’s side is very narrow which plays into my hands.

It’s gonna be hard for a narrow front three to break down my two incredible centre backs protected by Edgar ‘the Pitbull’ Davids, so I think the game is won and lost by the creativity in the midfield.

Luckily I’ve got two Balon D’or winner in there.

On top of that my two wide forwards are more versatile giving me the option of width if necessary.

Would be a great game but I’m comfortable my side would come out on top most of the time.

[El Lobo]

Never seen Cruyff called a sidekick before

VBG for me

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Never seen Cruyff called a sidekick before

VBG for me

Went VGB too. 

I felt Mikey's balance was outstanding, but his attack while all players I love - needed more pace beyond Keegan.  Loved seeing Mikey's CB pairing of Santamaria and Beckenbauer, though.

This alway felt like a 1-0 victory.  Deco for playing into the gaps for Cruyff and RVP did it for me.  Tough one Mikey, as I do think your team's balance is outstanding (as usual - you draft very well!

[vivabobbygraham]

Just want to tackle this ‘sidekick’ jibe which mikey has used before. Firstly, the great teams have that mixture of individual brilliance and those who allow them to be so. For example, schwarzenbeck, was alongside Beckenbauer for both club and Country and won 4 bundesliga, 3 European cups, a cup winners cup for club and a world cup and euro championship for Country whilst doing so. Would the Kaiser or West Germany have had similar success without my boy?

Secondly, I’d hardly describe Steilike, Breitner, Deco, Rivera, Van Persie and Cruyff as such. Finally, having six German internationals working together make them greater than the sum of their parts and is a deliberate choice. I’d ask voters to take that into consideration as they deliberate

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Just want to tackle this ‘sidekick’ jibe which mikey has used before. Firstly, the great teams have that mixture of individual brilliance and those who allow them to be so. For example, schwarzenbeck, was alongside Beckenbauer for both club and Country and won 4 bundesliga, 3 European cups, a cup winners cup for club and a world cup and euro championship for Country whilst doing so.

Secondly, I’d hardly describe Steilike, Breitner, Deco, Rivera, Van Persie and Cruyff as such. Finally, having six German internationals working together make them greater than the sum of their parts and is a deliberate choice. I’d ask voters to take that into consideration as they deliberate

Difference makers for me definitely.  I am not sure Stielike and Breitner get the credit they deserve in larger drafts (not like some other Germans of their generation), but their aggression, work ethic and style of play does make everyone around them better

[mikey_LFC]

Never seen Cruyff called a sidekick before

1 of 11. And Beckenbauer handled him on the International Stage.

I felt Mikey's balance was outstanding, but his attack while all players I love - needed more pace beyond Keegan.  Loved seeing Mikey's CB pairing of Santamaria and Beckenbauer, though.

This alway felt like a 1-0 victory.  Deco for playing into the gaps for Cruyff and RVP did it for me.  Tough one Mikey, as I do think your team's balance is outstanding (as usual - you draft very well!

How about Boniek’s pace? He was one of the quickest players around in the 80s. Known for his pace, agility and dribbling, even more so than Keegan.

Deco wouldn’t get a chance against Davids. What gaps are they finding against this defence?

Difference makers for me definitely.  I am not sure Stielike and Breitner get the credit they deserve in larger drafts (not like some other Germans of their generation), but their aggression, work ethic and style of play does make everyone around them better

And I’m not sure you’re giving Suarez and Kopa the credit they deserve. Best in the world at their time, true stars. Davids is enough of a water carrier don’t need quite as many as Viva.

Just want to tackle this ‘sidekick’ jibe which mikey has used before. Firstly, the great teams have that mixture of individual brilliance and those who allow them to be so. For example, schwarzenbeck, was alongside Beckenbauer for both club and Country and won 4 bundesliga, 3 European cups, a cup winners cup for club and a world cup and euro championship for Country whilst doing so. Would the Kaiser or West Germany have had similar success without my boy?

Secondly, I’d hardly describe Steilike, Breitner, Deco, Rivera, Van Persie and Cruyff as such. Finally, having six German internationals working together make them greater than the sum of their parts and is a deliberate choice. I’d ask voters to take that into consideration as they deliberate

Beckenbauer’s van Dijk to Schwarzenbeck being any of the other three. Their game is raised from playing with the superstar, born leader. He wasn’t Germany’s final piece in the puzzle.

As J said you’ve picked a great team, but at each level, Attack, midfield and defence, I’ve got the edge. You’re hugely reliant on Cruyff and how’d that fair for Holland against Beckenbauer in the 1974 World Cup final.

[vivabobbygraham]

1 of 11. And Beckenbauer handled him on the International Stage.


How about Boniek’s pace? He was one of the quickest players around in the 80s. Known for his pace, agility and dribbling, even more so than Keegan.

Deco wouldn’t get a chance against Davids. What gaps are they finding against this defence?

And I’m not sure you’re giving Suarez and Kopa the credit they deserve. Best in the world at their time, true stars. Davids is enough of a water carrier don’t need quite as many as Viva.

Beckenbauer’s van Dijk to Schwarzenbeck being any of the other three. Their game is raised from playing with the superstar, born leader. He wasn’t Germany’s final piece in the puzzle.

As J said you’ve picked a great team, but at each level, Attack, midfield and defence, I’ve got the edge. You’re hugely reliant on Cruyff and how’d that fair for Holland against Beckenbauer in the 1974 World Cup final.

It all seems to be civil and agreeable then you sometimes launch into hyperbole, usually when under pressure, to such an extent one feels compelled to respond 

You want to compare balon d'ors? That well known 'sidekick' Rivera? Cruyff x3, one of which was in 1974 when he beat the Kaiser into 2nd place, him having won it two years earlier and would do again two years later. Now, I am in no way decrying Franz' achievements, it's incredibly difficult for defenders to win this trophy or even to finish 2nd as my 'water carrier' Paul Breitner did in 81. And I have already conceded how awesome your CB's are, it would be churlish to say otherwise. The fact you have no love for mine is to be expected despite both being European Cup winners for club and European Champions for country.

It's interesting you reference the 74 World Cup final as evidence of the German's supremacy over Cruyff whilst forgetting Cruyff winning the penalty for the opening goal inside the 1st minute. No mention either of Breitner's equaliser in the same game. Actually, what the game does confirm is that German resilience and resolve, in the face of adversity, when confronted by a better team on paper, as the Dutch were and to which I've alluded to consistently throughout regarding my six 'Deutschland, Deutschland, über alles...ses' . They are all of the same stock no matter what era.

Finally, your assumption that my team lacks width is, again, wide of the mark...  . Both your full backs can be got at and Rivera and Cruyff would exploit that. Utilising Uli and Markus' pace and strength to overload on either wing pulling your CB's into areas they don't want to go leaving Edgar to deal with Deco and Van Persie exploiting any areas in behind, Didi and Breitner would press on to your balon D'or winners leaving your front 3 isolated. Proper German football with a hint of Dutch magic.  Klopp style in effect.

I'm done now. I think i've stated my case fairly and without (too much) prejudice. May the best TEAM win.

[mikey_LFC]

So your plan is, although not shown in the formation, to push Cruyff and Rivera wide, leave Deco and van Persie central. Push you full backs up onto mine. Push your two deepest midfielders up onto mine two more attacking midfielders.

Not only does that leave 3 superb attackers on your two centre backs, for Beckenbauer and Davids to play into, as they’re both experts of the quick long transitional ball, it also pulls your star players out of their natural positions into wide areas where they’re likely to be less involved. Then you’ve got to think whether you really believe your two in midfield pressing my two really stops them being able to play.

Seems like all this would do is free up a shed load of space in the middle and up giving a lot of possession to me, or even if it manages it press my team back it gives fantastic counter attacking opportunities.

You’re also attacking like Suurbier’s a schmuck despite being an ever present and key defensive and attacking cog in the grrest total football Dutch side of the 70s, one of only three players and the only one in this final to appear in all three Ajax and Netherlands finals in that area.

You’re better of playing to your strengths as you’ve laid out you side instead of trying to adapt so much to Adriano. Pulling your team wider just opens up so much space for my technicians to operate in.


And as for hyperbole, that’s what draft threads are for! 

Civiil and agreeable isn’t the name of the game. It’s a bit of fun and part of that is trying to demonstrate how your team dismantles the other. End of the day we all drafted great teams as it’s a European Cup winners draft, hard not to. And these are two of the best in the tournament. I think more than anything your team is just one mine would be suited to playing against. So whilst you could be most of the rest and I’d might lose to a few, that you could beat, as they might be better suited to target my weaknesses.

At least we can all agree that it’s good natured and thank god we don’t have to hear about Goku in these draft threads!

[vivabobbygraham]

But these are the tactics I used to beat you in our group game when you spat your dummy out, mate. Your front three never got a kick after Davids got sent off for cryarsing. He's not banned is he? 

[tubby]

Voted Viva, all square now.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

One hour to go, deadlock. If it stays like this, 5 v 5 is next, and if that doesn't resolve it, penalties.

[mikey_LFC]

But these are the tactics I used to beat you in our group game when you spat your dummy out, mate. Your front three never got a kick after Davids got sent off for cryarsing. He's not banned is he? 

That was the bent ref. A proper homer.

Not that the ref in this one was much better. Clear handball on the last minute equaliser. Plus Cruyff should have gone for putting his cigarette out on Edgar Davids glasses lens.

[mikey_LFC]

One hour to go, deadlock. If it stays like this, 5 v 5 is next, and if that doesn't resolve it, penalties.

Voting closed at 11am?

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Pelanties

[Sheer Magnetism]

Oh man, literally just saw this before I'd had a chance to vote.

[Betty Blue]

Since it doesn't really matter now, I've been meaning to point out that Bobby has two players completely out of position. I was kind of fascinated to see how far RAWK could ignore this. Stielike was a Sweeper/DM not a left back and Kaltz was a right back (a very attacking one at that) not a CB. Neither ever played in these other positions. It would be like playing Van Dijk at DM. Sure, he's a great player, but he'd be a complete liability in that position. It's quite worrying that no-one brought this up. I like Bobby's team otherwise, but for that reason I voted for Mikey.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Voting closed at 11am?

Might have read that wrong, forgive me I had just woken up at that point.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Since it doesn't really matter now, I've been meaning to point out that Bobby has two players completely out of position. I was kind of fascinated to see how far RAWK could ignore this. Stielike was a Sweeper/DM not a left back and Kaltz was a right back (a very attacking one at that) not a CB. Neither ever played in these other positions. It would be like playing Van Dijk at DM. Sure, he's a great player, but he'd be a complete liability in that position. It's quite worrying that no-one brought this up. I like Bobby's team otherwise, but for that reason I voted for Mikey.

Yup no one said a thing, but it is what it is.

[Something Worse]

Since it doesn't really matter now, I've been meaning to point out that Bobby has two players completely out of position. I was kind of fascinated to see how far RAWK could ignore this. Stielike was a Sweeper/DM not a left back and Kaltz was a right back (a very attacking one at that) not a CB. Neither ever played in these other positions. It would be like playing Van Dijk at DM. Sure, he's a great player, but he'd be a complete liability in that position. It's quite worrying that no-one brought this up. I like Bobby's team otherwise, but for that reason I voted for Mikey.

You guys need to mention this stuff, I'm not researching it!

[vivabobbygraham]

Since it doesn't really matter now, I've been meaning to point out that Bobby has two players completely out of position. I was kind of fascinated to see how far RAWK could ignore this. Stielike was a Sweeper/DM not a left back and Kaltz was a right back (a very attacking one at that) not a CB. Neither ever played in these other positions. It would be like playing Van Dijk at DM. Sure, he's a great player, but he'd be a complete liability in that position. It's quite worrying that no-one brought this up. I like Bobby's team otherwise, but for that reason I voted for Mikey.

6 German internationals, four of them schooled at Bayern, with Kaltz and Babbel able to alternate on the right and Steilike and Breitner similarly on the left without losing that German organisation and determination to keep clean sheets. All conditioned to play important finals for club and Country and a rock solid base for the front 4. Rivera and Cruyff in tandem would be something special; Deco has merit and say what you like about Van Persie but he knows where the net is...and he would get plenty of opportunities to prove that.

4231 could become 433 easily whilst 343 with Steilike moving into the midfield as he did so well for Madrid gives the team such flexibility. Dutch magic, with a hint of Portuguese and Italian spice, grounded in German resilience makes my team hard to beat....and then there's Cruyff...

Stielike started his career with Gladbach as a left back, culminating in the 1st leg of 1975 UEFA cup final first leg there. See above in bold from my preamble. Kaltz too, played CB for Hamburg. Point being I have said from the beginning that my German 6 were a unit who could play a number of positions but hey ho, BB, you can argue they did not play their best football there but they did play those position in their careers

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Five a side thread is up, go vote whilst you got a chance.

[Betty Blue]

Stielike started his career with Gladbach as a left back, culminating in the 1st leg of 1975 UEFA cup final first leg there. See above in bold from my preamble. Kaltz too, played CB for Hamburg. Point being I have said from the beginning that my German 6 were a unit who could play a number of positions but hey ho, BB, you can argue they did not play their best football there but they did play those position in their careers

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I cross referenced several sources before commenting on it to be sure. Amongst others Transfermarkt list neither of ever playing in those positions. The wiki link to the UEFA Cup final in 1975 is confusing since the graphic shows him at CB, but the text line-up lists him at LB. Wikipedia is full of mistakes like this. Not quite bothered enough to track down and watch the actual game to find out which is true 

[PoetryInMotion]

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I cross referenced several sources before commenting on it to be sure. Amongst others Transfermarkt list neither of ever playing in those positions. The wiki link to the UEFA Cup final in 1975 is confusing since the graphic shows him at CB, but the text line-up lists him at LB. Wikipedia is full of mistakes like this. Not quite bothered enough to track down and watch the actual game to find out which is true 

Yeah, but I would think the point still stands. Playing a few games early in a career as Viva attributed to one of the two in question doesn't sound convincing. Would anyone play Carra RB because he played there early in his career? Gerrard played RB in one of our biggest ever games (albeit as a result of in game management) but that shouldn't go as an okay to use him as RB in a draft.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Whoever runs the next draft, should use these examples for set rules, so we avoid any discrepancies.

[RobbieRedman]

No issue with player selection here just the bodged formations put me off both but you got to final so it seems acceptable to the masses, Mikeys slightly edged it but not sure about Rush in a front three with Keegan out wide

but....Criminal how this team (below) didn't make it out of the group stage to teams that had Zamarano or Chiesa up front, top players but fuck me that's scandalous



I guess i need to kiss more ass around here or start sending nakeds in dm's

(let me know which you prefer)

[vivabobbygraham]

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I cross referenced several sources before commenting on it to be sure. Amongst others Transfermarkt list neither of ever playing in those positions. The wiki link to the UEFA Cup final in 1975 is confusing since the graphic shows him at CB, but the text line-up lists him at LB. Wikipedia is full of mistakes like this. Not quite bothered enough to track down and watch the actual game to find out which is true 

I stand by Stielike pick based on wikipedia, both in the UEFA Cup final and its introduction to his early days at Gladbach. I thought I had explained my use of his flexibility in my preamble from the beginning... I didn't use the arrows!

However, it is now clear to me I have wrongly positioned Kaltz. I cannot find the evidence to support his inclusion as a centre back. This a mystery to me and deeply distressing. I hope you will believe me when I say I was not attempting to deceive or cheat. I apologise unreservedly to my opponents whom I played along the way, in particular, Hazell, who took me to penalties and should have been in the final  . BB too, as he would have had a different opponent in the knock out stages and all those either directly or indirectly affected by my mistake.

I have not voted so I hope I'm being thrashed. I do, of course, forfeit the game anyway.