Author Topic: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn  (Read 15339 times)

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #80 on: May 14, 2020, 03:45:39 pm »
Harry Dunn crash: Anne Sacoolas extradition refusal 'final'

Quote
A Home Office extradition request was refused by US secretary of state Mike Pompeo in January.

On Tuesday, the state department's spokeswoman said that decision was final.

She said that granting the extradition request for Mrs Sacoolas would have rendered the invocation of diplomatic immunity a practical nullity and would have set an "extraordinarily troubling precedent".

She added that the US has a history of close law enforcement co-operation with the UK, and values that relationship.

But the Prime Minister's official spokesman said Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson "has been clear that he wants to see justice served for Harry and his family".

Mr Johnson had raised the case with Donald Trump "on a number of occasions", the spokesman said.

"The US refusal to extradite Anne Sacoolas amounts to a denial of justice and she should return to the UK," the spokesman added.

Shadow foreign secretary Lisa Nandy has called for a parliamentary inquiry, in which the Foreign Secretary would have to explain "failings" with Mr Dunn's case.

But the Dunn family spokesman Radd Seiger said: "The White House may feel that secretary Pompeo's refusal to extradite Anne Sacoolas was final but that does not reflect the real position.

"In fact quite the contrary, as the US Embassy in London said in a recent letter to Andrea Leadsom, both countries recognise that the final decision will rest with the court following a judicial review."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-52630089

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #81 on: May 14, 2020, 04:00:40 pm »
Harry Dunn crash: Anne Sacoolas extradition refusal 'final'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-52630089
So, there is no ability for the US Government to override a court decision? I am surprised by that. I hope it is true.
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Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #82 on: July 19, 2020, 04:28:40 pm »
Harry Dunn: Make case 'top priority' at US state visit

Quote
The mother of Harry Dunn has appealed to the government to make her son "top priority" during the US Secretary of State visit.

Charlotte Charles asked Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab and Mike Pompeo to "please, please, discuss Harry" at the visit on Monday.

Quote
Mr Raab told Sky News, "there's a denial of justice here".

"There's no measures that we could I think credibly, realistically take which is somehow going to force the US or indeed Anne Sacoolas to comply with this [the extradition].

"I want to be realistic because I don't want to raise expectations which are then going to be dashed."

He said it has been "raised" in Washington, with the prime minister and President Trump.

"We will continue to make clear we're on the side of the family here, we think that she should return, she must return home, so that justice can be done."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-53462728

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #83 on: July 22, 2020, 12:09:24 am »
Harry Dunn: Make case 'top priority' at US state visit

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-53462728

Quote
The UK continues to seek the extradition of Anne Sacoolas in connection with the 19 year-old's death in a road traffic collision outside a US military base in Northamptonshire last year.

The US has said it cannot allow Ms Sacoolas, who has been accused of causing Harry Dunn's death by dangerous driving, to return to the UK to be questioned, insisting she has diplomatic immunity.

In a statement, Downing Street said the PM had made Mr Pompeo aware of the "strong feeling among the people of the UK that justice must be delivered".

"The prime minister reiterated the need for justice to be done for Harry Dunn and his family," it said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53489610

"Now fuck off" the statement ended.

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #84 on: July 22, 2020, 12:45:27 am »
Mother of Harry Dunn calls Dominic Raab 'defeatist' over Pompeo meeting

Quote
The mother of the teenage motorcyclist who was killed in a collision with a US diplomat’s wife accused Dominic Raab of being a “lost child in an adult’s world” as he greeted the US secretary of state on Tuesday.

Charlotte Charles was at the gates of Downing Street to watch the arrival of Mike Pompeo and said that “words are not enough anymore”.

Quote
Charles, who was accompanied by her partner, Bruce, and lawyer, Radd Seiger, said that she had come “to show Mr Pompeo and Mr Raab and Mr (Boris) Johnson that I’m not just going to stick on my TV and watch them at home.

“It’s really important that we come here and let them know that Harry was important and they need to realise that,” she told the PA news agency.

“So I’m not going to stay at home … I intend to make sure that they are aware that we’ve made the effort to be here to try to communicate with them.”

Quote
Charles appealed to the government at the weekend to make her son the “top priority” during the visit and said she was tired of assurances. “We’ve been assured by Dominic Raab’s team ... that Harry is number one on the agenda,” she said. “Well prove that to us then.

“Tell us what they’re going to do. Words are not enough anymore. There are plenty of things (Raab) could do, we need proof of what he’s going to do.

“He looks defeatist, he looks like a little lost child in an adult’s world. Stand up for us, we are UK citizens.”

Quote
Seiger added: “There are plenty of things (the government) can do. They could suspend the extradition treaty between the United States and the United Kingdom much like they did with Hong Kong yesterday.”

...

Seiger added: “We’ve been through a number of months now of ( Raab) saying to us that he raises (the Dunn case) every once in a while with the United States administration.

“We understand that there are hugely important global issues that need to be discussed but there are none more important than the lives of our children and the human rights of this family that are entitled to justice. That has to come first.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/21/mother-of-harry-dunn-calls-dominic-raab-defeatist-over-pompeo-meeting

Offline Machae

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #85 on: July 22, 2020, 12:05:01 pm »
UK and US agree to amend 'anomaly' that allowed the suspect to evade justice.

Well there isnt/wasnt an 'anomaly'. The US aided her to escape prosecution by flying her out secretly before it was too late.

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #86 on: July 22, 2020, 12:26:35 pm »
I think this means Prince Andrew is safe.

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Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #87 on: July 22, 2020, 03:58:31 pm »
UK and US agree to amend 'anomaly' that allowed the suspect to evade justice.

Well there isnt/wasnt an 'anomaly'. The US aided her to escape prosecution by flying her out secretly before it was too late.

Quote
Northamptonshire Police said it understood the changes would not be retrospective but welcomed the move.

It's almost as if it's primarily a PR stunt for sycophants either side of the Atlantic to point to.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-53500449

Also, where is the logic to this?! Killing someone because you're incapable of telling the left-hand side of the road from the right-hand side isn't any less bad because you're only the wife of a foreign official, rather than the foreign official itself.

Quote
Officials of foreign governments who are officially operating in another country have immunity from prosecution under long-standing international law. This legal principle of immunity has long been accepted by states as necessary to help foster good relations between them.

But limits can be imposed by agreement. In the case of RAF Croughton, a deal between the two states allowed the potential prosecution of US staff for crimes committed beyond their duties - but their families had greater protections.

In short, had a US official, rather than his or her spouse, been behind the wheel of the car that was involved in a crash, they may have had to face police questioning and potential criminal charge.

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #88 on: July 22, 2020, 04:56:01 pm »
Anne Sacoolas did not have diplomatic immunity in Dunn case, says ex-minister
 
Mon 22 Jun 2020 06.00 BST Last modified on Mon 22 Jun 2020 22.46 BST

US claims that the American Anne Sacoolas had diplomatic immunity when she drove into the British motorcyclist Harry Dunn last August have been rejected by the former Conservative minister who signed the agreement covering the base where her husband worked.

In court papers, the former Foreign Office (FCO) minister Tony Baldry said the diplomatic immunity deal reached in 1995 was intended specifically to exclude dangerous driving cases, or indeed any actions not related to the work of the staff at the base.

The interpretation of the agreement lies at the heart of the dispute about whether Sacoolas was able to leave the country and avoid prosecution. It is the first time the minister who signed it has set out his views on what he believes the then government meant.

He added that this limited immunity only applied to the staff at the base and no broader immunity was ever meant to be given to the staff’s family or dependants. This would mean Sacoolas, whose husband Jonathan worked at RAF Croughton in Northamptonshire, should never have been allowed to leave the country or escape prosecution by police.

The US has claimed the 1995 agreement signed by the UK gave the family of staff at the base wider immunity than the staff themselves.

The conflict has led to a diplomatic standoff between the UK and the US, including a judicial review by Dunn’s parents seeking to show that the government acted unlawfully in granting her the immunity that meant she did not face a prosecution of death by dangerous driving. This is the claim relating to which which the former minister has produced his statement.

The FCO had within days of the accident accepted the US claim that the agreement covering the RAF Croughton base gave Sacoolas immunity since it did not specifically exclude immunity for dependants.

Baldry’s submission to the high court revealing his intentions at the time he reached the agreement with the US will form part of the judicial review to be heard by the court in the autumn.

In his submission, Baldry says: “I am sure that the US did not and would not not have raised any specific request for dependants to be exempted from the law – had they done so I would have refused, or at the very least referred this matter to the secretary of state for him to decide. I cannot imagine any government agreeing to such an arrangement.”

He added he did not think the FCO lawyers “would have made an oversight or drafting error that would create a situation whereby immunity was waived for agents outside work, but not for their spouses. The UK government position had evidently been explained to the Americans and I believe that, by pressing their request and accepting our conditions, they consented to it.”

The RAF Croughton base started to be used as a US communications relay station for its radio traffic from embassies across Europe from 1963, the court papers show. The US said it was not possible to undertake this work at the main US embassy building in London.

The US then asked the FCO for its technical staff at the base to be given diplomatic status, something the department was reluctant to accept, according to contemporary FCO correspondence now submitted to the court.

The submission sent by officials to Baldry dated 23 May 1995 showed officials were “less than happy” about the increase in numbers of staff, expressing concerns the technical staff might become involved in driving accidents in such a remote area.

The FCO letter to Baldry as a result recommended that acts performed outside the course of their duties should not be subject to immunity from criminal jurisdiction.

In his submission to the court Baldry writes: “The phrase ‘we remain less than happy’, is a civil service euphemism, because we were obviously extremely unhappy at the prospect of technicians and their dependents being placed above the law, and this I made clear by instructing that any agreement must be conditional upon the waiver.”

The FCO said: “Tony Baldry himself admits he had no recollection of the submission and does not recall seeing the final agreement.”

But the FCO insisted there was no waiver of immunity for spouses in the original Croughton agreement set out in 1995.

It added: “The FCO identified this anomaly after the tragic case of Harry Dunn. The foreign secretary instigated a full review of those historic arrangements – presided over by previous governments – and is now working to correct the anomaly.”

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jun/22/anne-sacoolas-did-not-have-diplomatic-immunity-in-dunn-case-says-ex-minister

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #89 on: July 22, 2020, 04:57:10 pm »
Harry Dunn: Anne Sacoolas immunity 'absurd' says diplomacy expert

22 June 2020

Quote
The Dunns' lawyers, headed by Geoffrey Robertson QC, asked Sir Ivor Roberts, a former British ambassador in Serbia, Ireland and Italy, for his opinion. After retiring from the diplomatic service Sir Ivor was head of Trinity College, Oxford.

His report on the arguments produced by the British and US governments, which I have read, is remarkably strongly worded.

Mrs Sacoolas's husband was an American intelligence officer based at RAF Croughton. That gave him a certain level of diplomatic immunity. The British and US governments maintain that this meant that, as his wife, Mrs Sacoolas had immunity too.

Sir Ivor says this is "a palpable absurdity".

He quotes a letter of agreement between the Foreign Office and the US ambassador to Britain in August 1995 about the American personnel at RAF Croughton. This says explicitly that diplomatic immunity for people like Mr Sacoolas would not apply for "acts performed outside the course of their duties".

If Mr Sacoolas wasn't covered for acts outside his duties, Sir Ivor says, it would be absurd for Mrs Sacoolas, who had no official position, to be immune from prosecution when her husband wasn't.

He doesn't mince his words. "It was clearly not anticipated that this agreement might be dishonourably challenged by the US government through their embassy in London," he says.

In Sir Ivor's view both the British and US sides knew that back in 1995 they had agreed that "both agents and their dependants" were subject to British criminal law in their non-work activities at RAF Croughton.

For the Americans to argue the opposite would, he said, be regarded by professional diplomats as a breach of good faith.

Words and expressions like "palpable absurdity", "dishonourably" and "breach of good faith" are rare from a top expert on diplomacy.

Although the judges at the High Court agreed that Sir Ivor was a leading figure in the study of diplomacy, they did not accept his report on the technical grounds that he was not a practising lawyer.

They rejected an application by the Dunns to force the Foreign Office to disclose evidence relating to a "secret agreement" between the US and British governments.

But this was a preliminary hearing, and it seems reasonable to assume that Sir Ivor's scathing opinion of the case presented by the Foreign Office and the US embassy will have an influence on the case as it continues.

In a statement, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office said: "Anne Sacoolas held diplomatic immunity on arrival in the UK on 24 July until her departure from the UK.

"Under the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, any waiver of immunity must be express.

"The historic arrangements covering Croughton contained no such waiver for family members.

"We are committed to revising this anomaly in the arrangements at Croughton so they cannot be used in this way again."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-53132168

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #90 on: February 4, 2021, 02:44:34 pm »
Quote
Harry Dunn’s alleged killer was “employed by an intelligence agency in the US” at the time of the fatal road crash, which was “especially a factor” in her departure from the UK, a court has heard.

The Alexandria district court in Virginia was told Anne Sacoolas and her husband Jonathan Sacoolas worked for the US Department of State and they “fled” the country due to “issues of security”.

The revelations came out during Sacoolas’s application to dismiss a civil claim for damages against her made by the Dunn family on Wednesday.

Quote
The Dunn family’s barrister in the US, Agniezska Fryzsman, told the court the British government had written to the court to “endorse” their claim.

The admission from Sacoolas’s own barrister about her employment at the time of the crash has raised questions over her diplomatic immunity.

Under the agreements at RAF Croughton dating back to 1995, anyone working at the base from the US as part of the “administrative and technical staff” would have their immunity pre-waived, meaning they would not be immune to criminal jurisdiction.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/feb/03/harry-dunns-alleged-killers-intelligence-work-a-factor-in-departure-from-uk

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #91 on: February 18, 2021, 09:07:58 pm »

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #92 on: February 18, 2021, 09:12:23 pm »
U.S. Court Sides With Family Of Man Killed In Crash Involving Diplomat's Wife https://www.npr.org/2021/02/16/968433574/u-s-court-sides-with-harry-dunns-family-keeps-wrongful-death-lawsuit-in-virginia

Fuck me, a U.S court doing more for a British national, than the actual UK government.

Shouldn't be shocked though, they allowed Nazanin Zagari-Radcliffe to languish in jail for god knows how many years.
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #93 on: February 18, 2021, 09:12:59 pm »
This case is one that makes me feel so ill.  How that woman sleeps at night I will never know.
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Offline Machae

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #94 on: February 18, 2021, 09:20:56 pm »
Not only that but most, if not all of the politicians from both sides of the pond remain silent

Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #95 on: December 13, 2021, 07:26:03 pm »
Great news, the absconder is facing trial

likely over zoom, so unlikely to get custodial punishment
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Offline AndyInVA

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #96 on: December 14, 2021, 08:23:31 pm »
I’m interested to see how this roles out after a zoom trial in a different jurisdiction.

Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #97 on: December 14, 2021, 08:32:39 pm »
I’m interested to see how this roles out after a zoom trial in a different jurisdiction.

She gets a slap on the wrist
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Offline AndyInVA

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #98 on: December 14, 2021, 10:01:33 pm »
She gets a slap on the wrist

That’s about all I expect too. There will probably be an acceptance of guilt, that it was an accident, she didn’t mean it and get 100 hours community service in the USA. Family will get the best they can get. I wonder what she would have got in a UK court assuming no booze or drugs in her system and that it most likely was a tragic accident.

Offline Red Beret

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #99 on: December 14, 2021, 10:22:49 pm »
That’s about all I expect too. There will probably be an acceptance of guilt, that it was an accident, she didn’t mean it and get 100 hours community service in the USA. Family will get the best they can get. I wonder what she would have got in a UK court assuming no booze or drugs in her system and that it most likely was a tragic accident.

It's death by careless or reckless driving. Or perhaps driving without due care and attention?  Either way it's manslaughter.

That said, I worked with someone who was killed in a head on smash with a drug driver, along with her elderly mother. Bastard plead guilty, got seven years.
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #100 on: December 14, 2021, 11:00:44 pm »
It's death by careless or reckless driving. Or perhaps driving without due care and attention?  Either way it's manslaughter.

That said, I worked with someone who was killed in a head on smash with a drug driver, along with her elderly mother. Bastard plead guilty, got seven years.

Neither of those charges are manslaughter.

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #101 on: December 14, 2021, 11:13:18 pm »
That’s about all I expect too. There will probably be an acceptance of guilt, that it was an accident, she didn’t mean it and get 100 hours community service in the USA. Family will get the best they can get. I wonder what she would have got in a UK court assuming no booze or drugs in her system and that it most likely was a tragic accident.

she was on the wrong side of the road. Death by dangerous driving at least
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Offline Red Beret

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #102 on: December 15, 2021, 09:14:40 am »
Neither of those charges are manslaughter.

Yeah, it's funny how the law splits hairs, isn't it? Just how killing somebody accidentally with a car is considered different from accidentally killing them some other way.

Either way, this "trial" wouldn't be going ahead if there were genuine consequences to face at the end of it.
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Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #103 on: December 15, 2021, 09:32:13 am »
Yeah, it's funny how the law splits hairs, isn't it? Just how killing somebody accidentally with a car is considered different from accidentally killing them some other way.

Either way, this "trial" wouldn't be going ahead if there were genuine consequences to face at the end of it.

I fear you are right, it stinks

As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

Offline stewil007

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #104 on: December 16, 2021, 10:13:22 am »
Considering the title of this thread, i'm surprised nobody has utter the immortal line

'Its just been revoked'

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #105 on: December 16, 2021, 11:09:08 am »

Offline stewil007

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #106 on: December 16, 2021, 01:56:21 pm »
Au contraire

2 years ahead of ytour time :)

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As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

Offline John C

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #108 on: January 15, 2022, 02:20:28 pm »
The family must be distraught, it's terrible, no accountability at all.

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #109 on: January 16, 2022, 11:25:47 am »
Absolutely disgusting.
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #110 on: January 16, 2022, 11:27:46 am »
How was she allowed to leave in the first place, I hate this country
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

Offline lfcred1976

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #111 on: October 20, 2022, 03:20:45 pm »
Pleaded guilty to causing death by careless driving. Should give the evil yank bitch a lethal injection.

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #112 on: October 20, 2022, 03:49:44 pm »
Pleaded guilty to causing death by careless driving. Should give the evil yank bitch a lethal injection.

That sounds xenophobic.

Offline lfcred1976

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #113 on: October 20, 2022, 03:55:35 pm »
That sounds xenophobic.

Ffs. Ok then evil bitch. That better???

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #114 on: October 20, 2022, 06:08:26 pm »
Shows how soft justice in this country has become. How many times do we extradite people to the US to face trial yet when we try to do the same it is blocked by the US government
However if something serious happens to them I will eat my own cock.


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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #115 on: October 20, 2022, 06:11:49 pm »
I'm glad that some sense of justice has been done thus far and that she cannot hide forever behind so called diplomatic immunity of one of our closest international partners.

At least the truth is out and her name will be forever attached to his sad death.

She made a stupid mistake and Harry Dunn paid the highest price. I'm not sure what an expected sentence would be for an equivalent action by a UK citizen where no booze or pills were involved but just out and out carelessness. Apparently the judge wants her in court for sentencing which I am sure she does not want to do.

I can see some pre-agreed sentence of a few months in jail just for the authorities to try to draw a line under it. She may even get to serve the sentence in some open prison in the States.

Offline lfcred1976

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #116 on: October 20, 2022, 07:48:44 pm »
^^^. Can’t believe I just read that. A stupid mistake?  She killed someone by driving on the wrong side of the road. Doubt you’d say oh it was just a mistake if she had killed your son or daughter.

If I went to America and done what she’d done no doubt I’d be looking at time in jail. She should be no different.


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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #117 on: October 20, 2022, 07:49:37 pm »
Ffs. Ok then evil bitch. That better???
That sounds misogynistic.
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Offline lfcred1976

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #118 on: October 20, 2022, 07:54:58 pm »
That sounds misogynistic.

Ok. I’ll say just evil. That better?

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity - Harry Dunn
« Reply #119 on: October 20, 2022, 08:04:24 pm »
Ok. I’ll say just evil. That better?
Sounds a bit theistic. :P ;D
would rather have a wank wearing a barb wire glove
If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.