Topic: General political discussion Part II

[Alan_X]

Fisher’s resignation adds to bitter infighting that has dogged the party. It boiled over again this weekend when pro-Remain Labour MPs and activists accused Corbyn of trying to “shut down democratic debate” on Brexit. The row, which broke out after the leadership tabled plans to delay a decision on whether it should back Remain or Leave until after a general election, came as a new Opinium poll for the Observer showed the Tory party had extended its lead over Labour to 15 points.

The survey put the Conservatives on 37% (unchanged from two weeks ago) with Labour on 22% (down three percentage points) , the Liberal Democrats up by one point on 17% and the Brexit party down one on 12%.

Also worrying for Labour, before a probable general election in which Brexit would be certain to dominate, the survey found that almost seven out of 10 voters (69%) now believe Corbyn’s policy on Brexit – to back a second referendum while not recommending either Leave or Remain – is unclear.

In contrast, well over half of voters think the Conservatives (58%), the Liberal Democrats (59%) and the Brexit party (70%) have clear Brexit policies. Opinium also found for the first time that Remain voters were now just as likely to vote for the Liberal Democrats as for Labour. The Lib Dems backed a policy of scrapping Brexit if they formed the next government at their conference in Bournemouth last week.

Ninety constituency Labour parties (CLPs) have submitted motions to Labour’s Brighton conference on Brexit, 90% of which back a clear Remain position. The motions reflect a widespread belief among activists that the lack of a clear policy is driving away voters and would be fatal to the party’s chances at a general election.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/21/remain-mps-accuse-jeremy-corbyn-shutting-down-brexit-debate

Jeremy playing a blinder.

[TepidT2O]

Criticism of Corbyn has perhaps been too harsh?

He seems more of an avatar for a range of Marxists and SWP folks. He’s too thick to come up with most of this bollocks.  And I suspect too honest (?)

[oldfordie]

Think most of us do it as part of the system anyway, don't we? Potential to be a real mess of an election with people trying to second guess where the vote is going. My choice is pretty simple this election anyway so I'm kind of detached from it a bit.

----

This is the Sunday Times story inside. How accurate it is will be another thing.

Spoiler

[close]

As someone wise commented about it all, it's not so much the parlour games being played but that Labour is going to be asking people to make them the government when they seem barely capable of running a political party.

Yeah, am sure your right, people have always voted tactical, they knew where they stood in past elections, clear choice between Tories or Lib Dems, I think we are in for some very unpredictable results at the next GE. there are many MPs with decent majorities who can't be sure they will keep their seat.  voters may need local polling to help them to vote to keep the Tories out which will be the priority for many voters.

The Lib Dems and Greens have collaborated to stand down candidates in swing constituencies to defeat the Tories, so their voters are prepared to follow this lead. Labour doesn’t stand down candidates, but I really think it would benefit them to be more flexible on this.

Yeah, I think Labour would win a bit more respect as well for playing it smarter.

[oldfordie]

I'd like to see McCluskey bet his pension on Labour winning the next election. A rich man that will never feel the impact of a Tory government. I'd love to see mass resignations from that union.

He is all that's bad in Labour for me, says anything to defend his m8 Corbyn, lie after lie, smear after smear. horrible man.

[Circa1892]

McCluskey really is a fucking disgrace. Rivals Gordon Taylor as the worst Union leader about. Literally only cares about his own wealth and power. When was the last time he spoke up on any kind of employment issue. Comparing him to say Prentis is a joke. Can’t think of a single reason anyone would stay in Unite if they could be in another Union.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

McCluskey really is a fucking disgrace. Rivals Gordon Taylor as the worst Union leader about. Literally only cares about his own wealth and power. When was the last time he spoke up on any kind of employment issue. Comparing him to say Prentis is a joke. Can’t think of a single reason anyone would stay in Unite if they could be in another Union.

oh he’s much worse than Taylor when you consider the makeup of the union members for both

[RobinHood]

Can’t believe 3 years down the line people are still buying into this delusion that anyone (Tory or Labour) can negotiate a deal better than what we currently have as full members.

It’s ridiculous and to see the leader of the Labour Party on Marr talk about negotiating a good deal is just maddening. Anything they bring back will be nowhere near as good as remaining so what’s the point?

[TepidT2O]

And people claim they aren’t racist

[oldfordie]

Can’t believe 3 years down the line people are still buying into this delusion that anyone (Tory or Labour) can negotiate a deal better than what we currently have as full members.

It’s ridiculous and to see the leader of the Labour Party on Marr talk about negotiating a good deal is just maddening. Anything they bring back will be nowhere near as good as remaining so what’s the point?

I agree, there is no deal that is better than the one we have now, ive not heard anything from Frottage yet but I bet you he argues he would rather remain in the EU than accept Labours deal, he will list his reasons why as well, having no say being his number 1 reason.

[OOS]

Can’t believe 3 years down the line people are still buying into this delusion that anyone (Tory or Labour) can negotiate a deal better than what we currently have as full members.

It’s ridiculous and to see the leader of the Labour Party on Marr talk about negotiating a good deal is just maddening. Anything they bring back will be nowhere near as good as remaining so what’s the point?

Labour look ridiculous.

Want a GE. Wn GE. Renegotiate deal. Majority of Labour MPs to campaign/vote against that deal for Remain. 

[RobinHood]

Labour look ridiculous.

Want a GE. Wn GE. Renegotiate deal. Majority of Labour MPs to campaign/vote against that deal for Remain. 

You’ll inevitably end up either lying about your own deal or campaigning against your own deal.

[OOS]

You’ll inevitably end up either lying about your own deal or campaigning against your own deal.

It's madness. If Labour do win a GE, imagine sending Corbyn and co to Brussels to get a new deal only for a few months later Corbyn/ cabinet ministers to campaign/ vote against Corbyn's deal. They are taking the public for mugs, while making themselves look like one too.

[Alan_X]

He is all that's bad in Labour for me, says anything to defend his m8 Corbyn, lie after lie, smear after smear. horrible man.

I think he'd drop Corbyn like a shot if it suited his own needs. Awful man.

[OOS]

One thing watching clips today, interviewers rightly questioning Mps about how they are going to pay for policies. Free prescription, how much will it cost ... fair question ... however, how much will Brexit cost?

[Trada]

Jeremy playing a blinder.

This is the statement that Fisher released not the tittle tattle you are all believing from the Murdoch press.

[ShakaHislop]

One thing watching clips today, interviewers rightly questioning Mps about how they are going to pay for policies. Free prescription, how much will it cost ... fair question ... however, how much will Brexit cost?

In total the Treasury has now made available £6.3 billion to prepare for EU exit, including £4.2 billion funding this financial year alone.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/chancellor-announces-billions-to-turbo-charge-no-deal-preparations

[Zeb]

This is the statement that Fisher released not the tittle tattle you are all believing from the Murdoch press.

You know the private message to friends the Sunday Times has got hold of...

In his message to select colleagues explaining why he was really going Fisher said “I will tell other staff and politicians that I am leaving due to family commitments.”

Sunday Times will add 'colour' and slant things. But core facts aren't being debated outside weirdo social media circles.

----

Michael Chessum, pro-Corbyn and on the hard left but campaigner for 'remain', is learning how this works when push comes to shove.

Hearing that the Labour NEC has been prorogued this morning, and its members asked to endorse a Brexit statement by email.

NEC voting on its Brexit statement now,  by email. No proper amendments process, no proper debate. Extraordinary.

[The Gulleysucker]

Are you claiming that the internal memo that is being quoted didn't happen or doesn't exist?

[oldfordie]

I think he'd drop Corbyn like a shot if it suited his own needs. Awful man.

  You maybe right, ive always had the impression Corbyn.  McCluskey and others have backed each other up no matter what they say.

[oldfordie]

This is the statement that Fisher released not the tittle tattle you are all believing from the Murdoch press.

Unless ive got this wrong then Labour party policy on Brexit hasn't actually been decided yet. the members have still to vote on Brexit policy, is this true ?
Thornbury has said she has a opinion and she believes we should back remain, she says lets see what the members say.
Corbyn said he is no dictator, he doesn't decide Labour policy the members do. yet Watson and others are being accused of lack of loyalty to Corbyn, is nobody allowed to have a different opinion to Corbyn now. is nobody allowed a say on what Labours Brexit policy should be.
McCluskey and others are way out of order calling Watson disloyal for not backing Labour policy if Labour policy hasn't been agreed yet, he is is ripping into Watson for not supporting Corbyns view on Brexit.

[ShakaHislop]

Labour to be hit with libel claim over Panorama response this week

EXCLUSIVE: The JC understands that the party could be served with legal papers before the end of its annual conference in Brighton on Wednesday

    Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party is this week set to be hit with a libel claim from five of the whistleblowers who appeared in the BBC Panorama documentary that exposed the handling of antisemitism complaints.

    The JC understands that five ex-Labour employees have now instructed prominent media lawyer Mark Lewis to act on their behalf, alleging the party defamed them in its response to their claims on the show.

    In an embarrassing showdown for Labour chiefs, legal papers could now be served on the party before its conference in Brighton comes to an end.

    Mr Corbyn is due make his leader's speech on Wednesday, as the crucial conference closes with a general election possibly taking place before the end of the year.

    The libel claim will also allege that the response to the programme from senior Labour figures – including Mr Corbyn, Jon Lansman and Seumas Milne – was a clear breach of the party's commitment to protect the rights of whistleblowers.

    Among those believed to be suing the party are former head of disputes Sam Matthews and disputes officer Louise Withers Green.

    Mike Creighton, the former director of audit and risk, is another said to be taking legal action.

    Their lawyer, Mr Lewis declined to comment when asked by the JC about the launch of legal proceedings against Labour.

    But another source told the JC that the five whistleblowers were "determined to clear their names over disgusting smears from the Labour leadership."

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/labour-jeremy-corbyn-antisemitism-antisemitic-libel-bbc-panorama-response-whistleblowers-conference-1.489031

[Zeb]

Labour to be hit with libel claim over Panorama response this week

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/labour-jeremy-corbyn-antisemitism-antisemitic-libel-bbc-panorama-response-whistleblowers-conference-1.489031

Once heard a story, no idea how true - pure tittle tattle, and that was that Labour HQ was so unpleasant to work in that older staff were clearing out (toxic work environment etc.) and being replaced by staff who'd worked for Ken Livingstone. And then they too found it unpleasant and so began to be replaced by people whose qualifications were purely ideological. Some of the stuff said on Panorama fitted that. And, of course, Fisher's note to friends adds a bit more to it.

[Flaccido Dongingo]

Criticism of Corbyn has perhaps been too harsh?

He seems more of an avatar for a range of Marxists and SWP folks. He’s too thick to come up with most of this bollocks.  And I suspect too honest (?)

One thing Corbyn isn't is "thick".

[Lush is the best medicine...]

One thing Corbyn isn't is "thick".

exactly, complete fucking moron is more accurate

[Trada]

Britain Elects
‏ @britainelects

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 29% (+1)
LAB: 27% (-)
LDEM: 21% (+1)
BREX: 13% (-)
GRN: 5% (-)

via @ComRes, 18 - 19 Sep
8:35 PM - 22 Sep 2019

[classycarra]

Britain Elects
‏ @britainelects

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 29% (+1)
LAB: 27% (-)
LDEM: 21% (+1)
BREX: 13% (-)
GRN: 5% (-)

via @ComRes, 18 - 19 Sep
8:35 PM - 22 Sep 2019

Do you think the NEC fun this weekend will affect the next Com Res polls?

[thaddeus]

It's inevitable that the fallout of the last three years will mean that whichever 'side' feels disadvantaged by the eventual Brexit outcome will not go away.  The 'winners' will conversely shed a lot of support that will return to either their normal voting patterns or usual disinterested state when it comes to politics.

No doubt our historically dominant two parties are aware of how high the stakes are.  No Deal means Lib Dems will retain a core of extra Remain voters (that will likely grow and grow as the fallout hits home), No Brexit means TBP/UKIP will do likewise with Leave voters.  Labour don't want Lib Dems with a baseline of 25% and Conservatives don't want TBP/UKIP with a baseline of 25%.

I suppose some middle ground deal could take the edge off and leave hardcore Remain/Leave parties as niche players (although even a niche UKIP was enough for Dave Cameron to wet the bed).

I think I'll just relocate to the mother ship of mainland Europe.  If the United States of Europe evolves into a fascist superstate with an 'EU Army' then it's going to conquer us anyway (unless the US ride to our rescue - hohoho).  Chances are it will just remain a giant trading block with open internal borders and a progressive view of environmental and employment law.

[Alan_X]

This is the statement that Fisher released not the tittle tattle you are all believing from the Murdoch press.

Err...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/21/remain-mps-accuse-jeremy-corbyn-shutting-down-brexit-debate

I was commenting on Corbyn's bizarre Brexit 'strategy'.

But as you raised it, do I believe that Seamus Milne is an unprofessional prick and that the Labour Party is a clown show?... The answer is yes and I don't need a memo from Fisher or the Sunday Times to tell me.

[Zeb]

The story about Johnson on the front of the Times shouldn’t be ignored either.

Damning.

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson has repeatedly declined to comment on reported allegations he failed to declare close personal links to an American woman who received thousands of pounds in public business funding while he was mayor of London.

The prime minister, questioned by reporters on his plane en route to the UN general assembly (UNGA) in New York, refused to answer six questions about his links to Jennifer Arcuri, a US technology entrepreneur.

Asked if he wanted to deny any part of the story, or to comment on the nature of his relationship with Arcuri, Johnson also declined to be drawn.

Grauniad

This could well force him out if it picks up more steam. Hopefully Supreme Court will open Parliament again so MPs get a chance to have a few questions about standards in public office.

[Circa1892]

Grauniad

This could well force him out if it picks up more steam. Hopefully Supreme Court will open Parliament again so MPs get a chance to have a few questions about standards in public office.

It would've forced anyone out in the past. Johnson is like Trump. He is wholly 'managed' by his own ego and sense of entitlement. The rules do not apply to him.

[Zeb]

It would've forced anyone out in the past. Johnson is like Trump. He is wholly 'managed' by his own ego and sense of entitlement. The rules do not apply to him.

Whether the rules get applied to him by others though, isn't it? Trump analogy is weak on that part when applied to Johnson, although politics of choosing to do so is obviously there with both.

[filopastry]

Whether the rules get applied to him by others though, isn't it? Trump analogy is weak on that part when applied to Johnson, although politics of choosing to do so is obviously there with both.

With Brexit hanging over everything and increasing partisanship all round it just feels like normal rules no longer apply to most politicians as long as they have a devoted enough following.

[The Gulleysucker]

...as long as they have a devoted enough following.

And that's likely the simple explanation.

The Tories have put all their eggs in the Boris basket so won't make any fuss about it and probably deflect if it gets any more serious.

You can just imagine the old duffers in a golf club house somewhere in the home counties.. Oh that Boris, fond of the fillies isn't he?...If only I was younger...

There's always been a strand of mysogyny within the Tories, remember the lothario Cecil Parkinson and his mistress, and also some on the far left, the Go and make us all a cup of tea love, and pop out and buy some biscuits..use the money in the petty cash box... sort of attitude.

[Red-Soldier]

The rules are different now Zeb.  Johnson has a strong base within his own party and amongst a wider group in the UK, that's all you need to know.

[Zeb]

The rules are different now Zeb.  Johnson has a strong base within his own party and amongst a wider group in the UK, that's all you need to know.

He's 22 MPs short of a majority.

[Zeb]

Think there's a few who think the polls have been lying about Labour's position right now. This is by MEN's Jen Williams.

Speaking to regional journalists at party conference in Brighton, shadow foreign secretary Emily Thornberry said Labour is ‘not gaining the support of the British public’, according to internal opinion polls carried out by trade unions and others.

The party therefore needs to commit now to backing remain in a second referendum, she said, adding that she ‘doesn’t agree’ with Jeremy Corbyn’s plan to personally stay neutral in any future EU poll.

In an extraordinary intervention for a senior shadow cabinet member - made against the backdrop of vicious infighting at this year’s conference, particularly around Brexit - she divulged the results of internal polling for the party that showed 41.2pc of those who voted Labour in 2017 would not currently do so next time.

Nearly half of those deserters, 19pc, said they would vote Liberal Democrat, while 7.4pc would go Green.

By comparison a total of just 11pc said they would back either the Tories or the Brexit Party.

Ms Thornberry, who has been increasingly vocal about her remain support in recent months, said the party must now fully come out in favour of staying in the EU.

 “There’s internal polling from the unions and other sources that shows that as things stand with our current Brexit policy, we are not gaining the support of the British public,” she said.

“And the issue is that given the majority of Labour voters voted to remain, we are losing across the country around 30pc of them to the Greens and the Liberal Democrats and the Scots Nats and so on. “And we are losing some, but not many, of our leave supporters.

“The polling shows it’s the same across all regions.

“It’s a little like that scene in Star Wars when they are in the crusher and the walls are coming in...you don’t just stand there and say ‘it’s alright’, you have to get out of there.

“And if we don’t, I’m fearful for the results of the general election.”

In the north west, the internal polling suggests Labour has lost slightly less of its vote than nationally.

Nevertheless more than a third of those who backed the party in 2017, 37pc, said they would not do this time - and despite the area being leave-leaning overall, most of those deserters were also moving towards remain-backing parties, 16pc of them to the Liberal Democrats and 6.5pc to the Greens.

[The Gulleysucker]

Think there's a few who think the polls have been lying about Labour's position right now. This is by MEN's Jen Williams.

Thornberry seems to be increasingly positioning herself for the inevitable succession battle to come...that's assuming she can hold onto her seat.

She would be likely be a lot better than some of the other possible candidates, and I would expect her to give short shrift to many of the current shadow cabinet if she did ever get the job.

[classycarra]

Think there's a few who think the polls have been lying about Labour's position right now. This is by MEN's Jen Williams.

Four out of ten Labour voters, from an election they didn't even win, are looking to vote for another party. That's stark.

If the leadership actually gave a fuck about Labour's values they'd be resigning, knowing they are failing people and making things worse for normal people through their game playing.

[Red-Soldier]

He's 22 MPs short of a majority.

and....

That news story wont make his support turn against him.

[Zeb]

See how Starmer tries to one up Thornberry... Release details on how resources will be allocated and let CLPs work out odds of them still having an MP to trigger ballot next time round?

Problem Labour will have in switching to 'remain', if they do, is that they'll still be carrying two+ years of trust problems on the issue. Especially with Corbyn clearly digging in not to pursue this policy. S'pose it's all how well they can do the 'Yes, it's 'remain' we want. Now let's talk about...' thing.