Author Topic: General political discussion Part II  (Read 100166 times)

Offline Zeb

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #360 on: September 23, 2019, 11:44:32 am »
and....

That news story wont make his support turn against him.

I really don't think you understood the post you initially quoted. Try again?
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
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Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #361 on: September 23, 2019, 12:06:52 pm »
I really don't think you understood the post you initially quoted. Try again?

Understood it perfectly thanks.

Just disagree with your opinion  :)

Offline Zeb

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #362 on: September 23, 2019, 12:31:21 pm »
Understood it perfectly thanks.

Just disagree with your opinion  :)

I just don't see the relevance of what you're posting is to whether or not Johnson is held to account by the opposition. But I am sure I must be missing an obscure relationship you have in mind.
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #363 on: September 23, 2019, 12:49:00 pm »
I just don't see the relevance of what you're posting is to whether or not Johnson is held to account by the opposition. But I am sure I must be missing an obscure relationship you have in mind.

You said "this could bring him down" and I disagree with you.

It's not complicated.

Offline Zeb

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #364 on: September 23, 2019, 12:53:07 pm »
You said "this could bring him down" and I disagree with you.

It's not complicated.

It certainly shouldn't be. Definitely helps if you quote the right post and then don't dive down a weird argument which looks utterly bizarre when read next to it. :)
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #365 on: September 23, 2019, 12:56:46 pm »
It certainly shouldn't be. Definitely helps if you quote the right post and then don't dive down a weird argument which looks utterly bizarre when read next to it. :)

Ok, so it's my fault you didn't understand my point.  ;)

Offline Zeb

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #366 on: September 23, 2019, 12:57:29 pm »
Ok, so it's my fault you didn't understand my point.

Hahaha. Ok. Anyways, have a really lovely day Red-Soldier.
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And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #367 on: September 23, 2019, 12:59:26 pm »
4 day weeks?

Labours own commission said it wasn’t realistic or even desirable ... two weeks ago.

Now it’s bullshit policy just clutches out of his arse.

Reduce the bloody retirement age, do something that matters and might be possible
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Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #368 on: September 23, 2019, 01:06:34 pm »
Hahaha. Ok. Anyways, have a really lovely day Red-Soldier.

Thanks.  You to  :thumbup

Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #369 on: September 23, 2019, 01:09:45 pm »
4 day weeks?

Labours own commission said it wasn’t realistic or even desirable ... two weeks ago.

Now it’s bullshit policy just clutches out of his arse.

Reduce the bloody retirement age, do something that matters and might be possible

It actually said a blanket policy was unworkable and even undesirable, however, it should be looked at on a sector by sector basis.

Reducing the working week (however it is done) would have significant positive impacts on productivity, wellbeing and the environment.

Offline west_london_red

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #370 on: September 23, 2019, 01:14:15 pm »
McCluskey really is a fucking disgrace. Rivals Gordon Taylor as the worst Union leader about. Literally only cares about his own wealth and power. When was the last time he spoke up on any kind of employment issue. Comparing him to say Prentis is a joke. Can’t think of a single reason anyone would stay in Unite if they could be in another Union.

Not a fan of McClusky but Unite is very good at looking after its members where I work compared to my own union that does naff all. Most people join a union because of its strength in the work place, not what some guy most people have never heard of says at a conference most people don’t care about.
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #371 on: September 23, 2019, 01:14:20 pm »
It actually said a blanket policy was unworkable and even undesirable, however, it should be looked at on a sector by sector basis.

Reducing the working week (however it is done) would have significant positive impacts on productivity, wellbeing and the environment.
Such as in the health service?
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline west_london_red

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #372 on: September 23, 2019, 01:19:00 pm »
Such as in the health service?

He did say sector but sector in his defence and I suspect a lot people in the health service only work a few days a week anyway but with longer days.

I have a few colleagues who do 5 days worth of hours over 4 days because it helps with childcare or other commitment (one I know who does is a pastor who goes to France every week to preach on the weekends...).
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #373 on: September 23, 2019, 01:23:55 pm »
He did say sector but sector in his defence and I suspect a lot people in the health service only work a few days a week anyway but with longer days.

I have a few colleagues who do 5 days worth of hours over 4 days because it helps with childcare or other commitment (one I know who does is a pastor who goes to France every week to preach on the weekends...).
Agreed, but they don’t work 32 hours...

He would be increasing the wage bill by 20%.
This will never happen.  It’s a load of bullshit he’s plucked out of the sky to sound good. The reality is rather different
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #374 on: September 23, 2019, 01:28:40 pm »
Such as in the health service?
Not sure what you mean.

Here are the conclusions from the report:

Conclusion

A  criticism  of  the  above  proposals  is  that  they  set  up  bureaucratic  and  collective mechanisms for achieving outcomes which should be left to the market. This is based on the argument that competitive markets allow workers to ‘choose’ how many hours they  want  to  work,  just  as  they  allow  them  to  ‘choose’  how  much  they  want  to  be ‘trained’ for different jobs and pay levels. Since the choices have to be made within the limits  set  by  measurable  productivity,  no  obstacles  should  be  placed  in  the  way  of automation and other efficiency-improving innovations. In this idealised world there are no market imperfections or public goods.This Report proceeds from a different set of premises.

1.The reduction in hours is both desirable ethically and desired by most people. Even though  some  people  are  compelled  to  work  shorter  hours  than  they  want  to,  most people are compelled to work longer hours than they want to.

2.Mechanisation  does  not  ‘automatically’  produce  a  reduction  in  working  hours.  It may  lead  to  ‘technological  unemployment’,  with  some  people  doing  no  work,  and others working the same hours asbefore at lower wages. The argument that, in the long-run, mechanisation will create more jobs for more people at higher wages needs to  be  taken  on  faith. There  are  many  suspect  links  in  the  chain  of  arguments supporting this contention. An important one is theuncertainty of measuring outputs in services. And even supporters of the benign scenario acknowledge that there will be heavy transition costs.

3.Historical experience is less of a guide to the future of working hours than one might believe. The reason is that since the Industrial Revolution the main effect of machinery in reducing hours of work has been in the extractive and manufacturing sectors, and these   are   vanishing   parts   of   advanced   economies.   Today,   services   dominate. Productivity gains in large sections of the service sector are harder to achieve than in manufacturing and may not always be desirable anyway. The latter is true of all those 54 services  where  personal  supervision,  personal  interaction  within  companies,  and ‘person-to person’ provider-client relationships guarantee the quality of the service. Thus,  the  old  ‘automatic’  route  to  the  progressive  shortening  of  hours  (which  was never as automatic as market enthusiasts claim) may be partly barred. Thought needs to be given as to how to restore at least some part of Britain’s manufacturing capacity, by investing in manufacturing start-ups and renewable sources of energy. This is the essence of the argument for a ‘Green New Deal’. The British have always had a genius for  mechanical  invention-the  British  industrial  tradition  has  revolved  round  the production of ‘useful things’, and it is wrong that so much of it should be channelled into financial innovation.This  does  not  mean,  though,  that  workers  in  the  hard-to-automate  sectors  of  the service economy should not benefit from the productivity gains in other sectors. But this   requires   some   mechanism   for   transferring   income   from   inherently   high productivity  to  inherently  low  productivity  sectors  of  both  the  private  and  public economy.  The  expansion  of  the  caring  professions,  to  give  one  example,  should  be properly  financed  by  the  more  highly  automated  sectors.  The  role  of  the  state  will therefore be more important in securing hours reduction than it has been in the past, both  for  financing  automation,  training  workers  for  its  use,  and  securing  a  fair distribution of its fruits.

4.Individuals choose how much to work but within the limits set by the institutions of a particular society. These include the market system, but they also include cultural norms and the ways in which power and wealth are distributed inside and outside the market. At present, the rules governing employment are largely set by financial logic. This is inimical to a civilised reduction in hours. There is therefore a strong argumentfor  setting  up  countervailing  institutions  to  ‘nudge’  society  in  a  direction  which science and technology makes possible, and which is also desired by most people. A balance will need to be struck between what workers want from employment and whatemployers can afford to give. The game can be played for lower stakes than at present, but the stakes must not be so low as to bankrupt an economy which still largely relies on private enterprise to ‘deliver the goods’.

5.Policy should keep constantly in mind the goal of reducing ‘necessary’ labour effort. This,  rather  than  unlimited  growth  in  consumption,  was  the  chief  promise  of mechanisation. Material wealth is the means to a better life, not the better life itself. We have made the growth of GDP an end in itself -an offence to the gods, but also to the planet whose trustees we are. Policy can do little to make us good; but it can help us to choose wisely for ourselves and for the generations to come.

https://progressiveeconomyforum.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/PEF_Skidelsky_How_to_achieve_shorter_working_hours.pdf

Offline classycarra

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #375 on: September 23, 2019, 01:47:22 pm »
I have a few colleagues who do 5 days worth of hours over 4 days because it helps with childcare or other commitment (one I know who does is a pastor who goes to France every week to preach on the weekends...).

Great for the environment ;)

Reducing the working week (however it is done) would have significant positive impacts on productivity, wellbeing and the environment.

That's quite a broad statement, particularly the however it's done part. Presumably there's been a lot of academic studies. Can you cite your sources?

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #376 on: September 23, 2019, 01:58:53 pm »
So does a majority of the PLP agree with this new policy, or is it yet another thing they'll turn a blind eye to while campaigning to put the man they're on record as having no confidence in into No 10?

Offline Nobby Reserve

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #377 on: September 23, 2019, 01:59:28 pm »
It's madness. If Labour do win a GE, imagine sending Corbyn and co to Brussels to get a new deal only for a few months later Corbyn/ cabinet ministers to campaign/ vote against Corbyn's deal. They are taking the public for mugs, while making themselves look like one too.

In a referendum under a Labour Govt, what should the alternative be to remain on the ballot paper?
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Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #378 on: September 23, 2019, 02:02:56 pm »
In a referendum under a Labour Govt, what should the alternative be to remain on the ballot paper?

May's deal or No Deal, with it being more sensible to go for the former.

Offline killer-heels

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #379 on: September 23, 2019, 02:22:21 pm »
Camilla Tominey is at the Labour conference and I reckon she probably gets less grief than Watson.

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #380 on: September 23, 2019, 02:26:11 pm »
May's deal or No Deal, with it being more sensible to go for the former.

I'd rather the alternative to Remain be the sort of soft-Brexit that Corbyn would likely look to negotiate.

(I don't think he has a chance, as the EU rightly say 'fuck off' to cake'ism)
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Offline killer-heels

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #381 on: September 23, 2019, 02:28:04 pm »
Is there anything planned to discuss the plans McDonnell discussed around buy to let property and compulsory buying rights by tenants at the conference?

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #382 on: September 23, 2019, 02:29:09 pm »
Is there anything planned to discuss the plans McDonnell discussed around buy to let property and compulsory buying rights by tenants at the conference?
Who knows.

I don’t think that for long term rental it’s a bad idea.  But it does nothing to solve the housing crisis
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Offline killer-heels

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #383 on: September 23, 2019, 02:33:20 pm »
Who knows.

I don’t think that for long term rental it’s a bad idea.  But it does nothing to solve the housing crisis

They threw the idea that it would be below market rate so as a landlord I am keen to see its detail a bit more. If they get that far.

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #384 on: September 23, 2019, 02:36:34 pm »
For those of you who still are, or were Labour members, is an archive kept of CLP meeting minutes or is that sort of thing quickly deleted once they've been sent out to members? Is it even a requirement of a CLP to take minutes?

I'm not suggesting this an exclusively Labour problem, nor one that has only begun under Corbyn's leadership but the lack of transparency for an organisation that is effectively seeking to run the country is unnerving. What happens in a Labour meeting can have ramifications for even people who don't intend on voting Labour i.e. deciding who to support for Leader and effectively the next-in-line to be Prime Minister but they shouldn't be expected to attend every meeting to know what went on.

There should be a legal requirement to keep a record of such things and make them publicly available. The Freedom of Information Act should be amended to apply to all political parties too.

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #385 on: September 23, 2019, 02:37:46 pm »
They threw the idea that it would be below market rate so as a landlord I am keen to see its detail a bit more. If they get that far.
Don’t forget that property is theft so you are capitalist scum ;)

Being told that by millionaires and public school boys is a tough one to take though!

I guess that below market rate might account for the years of taking rent and making a profit (if people do in reality is a different question).

I fear that an unwanted outcome might be the collapse of the rental sector and a huge rise in illegal letting a.

I doubt it will ever happen mind hence the lack of details
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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #386 on: September 23, 2019, 02:40:18 pm »
Don’t forget that property is theft so you are capitalist scum ;)

Being told that by millionaires and public school boys is a tough one to take though!

I guess that below market rate might account for the years of taking rent and making a profit (if people do in reality is a different question).

I fear that an unwanted outcome might be the collapse of the rental sector and a huge rise in illegal letting a.

I doubt it will ever happen mind hence the lack of details

The funny thing with that was McDonnell said it was only targeted by those people who didn't maintain their properties and it wasn't targeted at landlords who may have invested to a small scale.

No idea how on earth any of that would work.

Offline Schmidt

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #387 on: September 23, 2019, 02:42:44 pm »
Don’t forget that property is theft so you are capitalist scum ;)

Being told that by millionaires and public school boys is a tough one to take though!

I guess that below market rate might account for the years of taking rent and making a profit (if people do in reality is a different question).

I fear that an unwanted outcome might be the collapse of the rental sector and a huge rise in illegal letting a.

I doubt it will ever happen mind hence the lack of details

As someone who rents my concern is that I'll just get turfed out of every place I rent after my initial contract is up, so I can never develop that long-term tenant status.

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #388 on: September 23, 2019, 02:47:33 pm »
The funny thing with that was McDonnell said it was only targeted by those people who didn't maintain their properties and it wasn't targeted at landlords who may have invested to a small scale.

No idea how on earth any of that would work.
No, how would you do that?

It’s got some merit in principle but reality is more complex

As someone who rents my concern is that I'll just get turfed out of every place I rent after my initial contract is up, so I can never develop that long-term tenant status.
And this may be an unexpected consequence .

As always, they’ve had 40 years protesting and they’ve forgotten to do any practical solutions.  Which is a huge issue even if I have sympathy with their intent.
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“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline killer-heels

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #389 on: September 23, 2019, 02:57:57 pm »
As someone who rents my concern is that I'll just get turfed out of every place I rent after my initial contract is up, so I can never develop that long-term tenant status.

I was going to say that landlords would just offer cheaper tenancies but on a 1 or 2 year basis to avoid long term status’.

Offline Schmidt

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #390 on: September 23, 2019, 03:08:00 pm »
And this may be an unexpected consequence .

As always, they’ve had 40 years protesting and they’ve forgotten to do any practical solutions.  Which is a huge issue even if I have sympathy with their intent.

It's such an obvious consequence though, it was literally the first thought I had.

I was going to say that landlords would just offer cheaper tenancies but on a 1 or 2 year basis to avoid long term status’.

A lot of agencies already offer 12 month contracts which become a rolling contract afterwards that both the tenant and agency can get out of at short notice at any time. The abolishing of agency fees has been good as it takes away the incentive to find new tenants regularly and makes moving easier, but allowing long-term renters to buy would just result in tenancies getting ended as soon as the rolling contract starts. They could give tenants more power to remain in a property but that also has consequences I'm sure for removing difficult tenants.

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #391 on: September 23, 2019, 03:50:06 pm »
Great for the environment ;)




That's quite a broad statement, particularly the however it's done part. Presumably there's been a lot of academic studies. Can you cite your sources?

If you think one person negates whole industries you must be really thick  ;)



Fill your boots (it's the same article that you were poined towards the other day:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49672757

People should work fewer hours to earn a living, but capping their hours would be unrealistic, a report commissioned by the Labour Party has claimed.

The report, by cross-bench peer Robert Skidelsky, said working less without loss of pay was "good for material and spiritual well-being".


But it said imposing a four-day week - a policy Labour is considering - would not be "realistic or even desirable".

Labour shadow chancellor John McDonnell said he would study the findings.

But the free market Adam Smith Institute warned: "If we force people to work less they will inevitably earn less."

According to the report, working hours in the UK are much lower than during the Industrial Revolution, when people could work up to 16 hours a day.


But it said the trend towards shorter hours had stalled since the 1980s as productivity gains had slowed and union power had been eroded.

The UK now works longer hours than any other European country bar Greece - with the average full-time employee clocking up 42.5 hours a week versus an EU average of 41.2 hours.

"Even though some people are compelled to work shorter hours than they want to, most people are compelled to work longer hours than they want to," the report said.


This week, London-based communications agency Synergy Vision permanently adopted a four-day week after a six-month trial.

Its 52 staff now work 36 hours each week as opposed to 40, and boss Ffyona Dawber says the team is "much happier, retention is better and it is easier to recruit".

"Some staff use their day off to get chores done, others play golf or go swimming. They all come back to work feeling more refreshed."

Productivity has stayed the same, Ms Dawber says, as people are happier to work harder in the fewer days that they are in the office.

The rota is carefully planned to stop everyone picking Friday as their day off, with people rotating from month to month.

"It was more complicated to set it up than I thought it would be," Ms Dawber says. "Things like calculating holidays or making sure you have projects covered.

"But we've got over that now. Our staff wanted to make it work, because they wanted to have the extra day off.


It said working hours in the public sector could be reduced - without cutting pay - in order to change the "norms of work" across the whole economy.

And it said the state could bring about full employment by acting as "employer of last resort" with a job guarantee programme. Among other things this would "weaken employers' control over the employment contract", and reduce fears about automation - a key to allowing people to work less.

The full report:

https://progressiveeconomyforum.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/PEF_Skidelsky_How_to_achieve_shorter_working_hours.pdf
« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 03:51:49 pm by Red-Soldier »

Offline classycarra

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #392 on: September 23, 2019, 03:56:52 pm »
If you think one person negates whole industries you must be really thick  ;)
Defensive as ever when even slightly challenged by a harmless joke :) Just like earlier with Zeb, and I think you must have been the guy who got weird and superior about spelling and grammar that time too.

Fill your boots (it's the same article that you were poined towards the other day:
Sorry, but again you probably want to go back and re-read what you're replying to as you've missed the point. I didn't ask to read some political statement and the findings of a peer.

As I said I want to read more rigorous research, conducted scientifically. I foolishly assumed from your confidence/assertiveness and lack of doubt that you were basing your broad generalisation on something more than wishful thinking and faith.

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #393 on: September 23, 2019, 04:06:06 pm »
Labour passing a motion to abolish private schools, so so dumb these people

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #394 on: September 23, 2019, 04:13:55 pm »
If you add up all the hours worked and divide it by the employees it magically comes to 32.

Now call me suspicious, but that seems a little too convenient... it includes all part time work of course 
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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #395 on: September 23, 2019, 04:13:55 pm »
Agreed, but they don’t work 32 hours...

He would be increasing the wage bill by 20%.
This will never happen.  It’s a load of bullshit he’s plucked out of the sky to sound good. The reality is rather different

I didn’t see the bit about 32 hours!
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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #396 on: September 23, 2019, 04:14:36 pm »
Labour passing a motion to abolish private schools, so so dumb these people

Maybe that’s because they didn’t go to a private school... no wait...
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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #397 on: September 23, 2019, 04:19:19 pm »
Defensive as ever when even slightly challenged by a harmless joke :) Just like earlier with Zeb, and I think you must have been the guy who got weird and superior about spelling and grammar that time too.

Sorry, but again you probably want to go back and re-read what you're replying to as you've missed the point. I didn't ask to read some political statement and the findings of a peer.

As I said I want to read more rigorous research, conducted scientifically. I foolishly assumed from your confidence/assertiveness and lack of doubt that you were basing your broad generalisation on something more than wishful thinking and faith.

I wasn't being "defensive" with Zeb earlier, I was just replying to his posts in the same manner he was to me.  There were no ill words said, I just disagreed with him.

That's fair enough.  There's quite a few references in that report, have a look at those.



I am sorry if I've offended anyone today.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 04:32:23 pm by Red-Soldier »

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #398 on: September 23, 2019, 04:23:02 pm »
If you add up all the hours worked and divide it by the employees it magically comes to 32.

Now call me suspicious, but that seems a little too convenient... it includes all part time work of course 

If you're proposing something which assumes you'll be in power for 10 years to deliver it then you're probably not expecting anyone in 10 years time to remember what you promised all those years back...
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Offline classycarra

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Re: General political discussion Part II
« Reply #399 on: September 23, 2019, 04:29:19 pm »
That's fair enough.  There's quite a few references in that report, have a look at those.

Sadly mostly news articles, or policy advocacy pieces by various organisations. There's a little ONS stuff in there at least, but the most recent academic study published in a peer reviewed journal I could find (of the few I could see in the bibliography) was published in 2013 which was a little disappointing (if unsurprising) for its credibility.