Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"

[Billy Elliot]

Maybe just me but I don't think there is any such thing as a Labour Brexit, no doubt there is a Labour Leadership Brexit though, from what they have said I doubt it would be much different to the Tory one, just as long as state aid rules were relaxed

I'm very much in the minority on here, but sometimes it sounds like the EU is this big guardian angel from the nasty Tory Government.

When I look out of my front office window I can see luxury flats, most of which are empty.  When I look out of my back window I can see tents pitched against the River with the homeless living amongst rats.  That's what I literally see.

I can't see how these poor bastards have received any of this trickle down from the EU.  Whilst it hasn't been caused by the EU, the EU haven't prevented it, in fact I'd go as far as saying they've facilitated it.

Also, I still maintain that the official remain campaign still haven't got a clue about why they lost the referendum.  For that reason, I don't have much confidence in them winning a second.

Also, what type of precedent does it set?  Next time the Tories win an election, can we just say they lied  in the campaign and call for another?

[Sangria]

Financial Globalisation Has Been a Disaster. Brexit Gives Us a Chance to Resist It

https://novaramedia.com/2018/06/24/financial-globalisation-has-been-a-disaster-brexit-gives-us-a-chance-to-resist-it/

So does Jeremy want to leave the EU?

[So… Howard Philips]

I'm very much in the minority on here, but sometimes it sounds like the EU is this big guardian angel from the nasty Tory Government.

When I look out of my front office window I can see luxury flats, most of which are empty.  When I look out of my back window I can see tents pitched against the River with the homeless living amongst rats.  That's what I literally see.

I can't see how these poor bastards have received any of this trickle down from the EU.  Whilst it hasn't been caused by the EU, the EU haven't prevented it, in fact I'd go as far as saying they've facilitated it.

Also, I still maintain that the official remain campaign still haven't got a clue about why they lost the referendum.  For that reason, I don't have much confidence in them winning a second.

Also, what type of precedent does it set?  Next time the Tories win an election, can we just say they lied  in the campaign and call for another?

How have the EU facilitated homelessness and luxury flats not being occupied?

Use curious how you reach that conclusion.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

How have the EU facilitated homelessness and luxury flats not being occupied?

Use curious how you reach that conclusion.

and of course it implies that the labour leadership know what will prevent that when they have a track record of supporting regimes where it ends up so much worse

[24/7]

How have the EU facilitated homelessness and luxury flats not being occupied?

Use curious how you reach that conclusion.

PLUS much of the issue around luxury apartments in London specifically is caused by mass buy up from Russia and China. Nasty EU could've prevented that. Innit. Mate.

[Billy Elliot]

How have the EU facilitated homelessness and luxury flats not being occupied?

Use curious how you reach that conclusion.

The article I posted reflects my own thoughts.  Even if Alan does think I'm deluded.

[Sangria]

The article I posted reflects my own thoughts.  Even if Alan does think I'm deluded.

What we think doesn't really matter. But what matters is, does Jeremy want to leave the EU?

[Billy Elliot]

PLUS much of the issue around luxury apartments in London specifically is caused by mass buy up from Russia and China. Nasty EU could've prevented that. Innit. Mate.

Years of failed policy by the Tory Government (and arguably for me, New Labour), I'll go and tell the people in the tents that Toyota are about to relocate though and see if they're arsed.

[Alan_X]

How have the EU facilitated homelessness and luxury flats not being occupied?

Use curious how you reach that conclusion.

You're missing the point. Once we're out of the EU and Corbyn wins the election in a landslide, the proletariat will be so happy with the new rolling five-year-plans that there will never be another Tory Government...

And then once the rest of the oppressed masses see our glorious paradise, where we all have free rail and postage they will rise up in global revolution...

Or something...

Whereas, the reality of Lexit would be at best a couple of terms (probably one) in government with a bit of nationalisation and progressive taxation before the damage to the economy from Brexit lets the next Tory government in. Led my Rees-Mogg or someone equally horrific, they will do whatever the fuck they want with none of the checks and balances that are part and parcel of being in the EU.

Utter stupidity. Lexit is Brexit.

[24/7]

Years of failed policy by the Tory Government (and arguably for me, New Labour), I'll go and tell the people in the tents that Toyota are about to relocate though and see if they're arsed.

I'm sure that will help

Although you're also correct about the failed policies, again, what are the EU meant to do - interfere with our governmental, democratic election procedures?? I still don't see the point you're making about EU allegedly having facilitated the problem you highlighted.

[KillieRed]

PLUS much of the issue around luxury apartments in London specifically is caused by mass buy up from Russia and China. Nasty EU could've prevented that. Innit. Mate.

You see a lot of direct EU help/aid in rural areas of need - they even put signs up - if you`ve ever travelled in the Scottish highlands or western Ireland you`ll have seen them. I`m guessing London doesn't get that kind of help, even in it`s more deprived areas because it`s judged to be wealthy and able to take care of it`s own. Which of course it is. Instead we have the situation where property is kept for investment, money-laundering or visa purposes and people are forced to sleep rough.

I`d be interested to know from someone with more knowledge the procedure for getting EU grants in the inner-cities.

[Iska]

This bit has always puzzled me why it's such an issue.

It's freedom to apply for work right, not a freedom to be hired? Employers, business owners, universities still retain the right to interview and select the best candidate no?

Can I ask why this doesn’t seem like a big issue?  It’s just about as big as they come surely?

[24/7]

You see a lot of direct EU help/aid in rural areas of need - they even put signs up - if you`ve ever travelled in the Scottish highlands or western Ireland you`ll have seen them. I`m guessing London doesn't get that kind of help, even in it`s more deprived areas because it`s judged to be wealthy and able to take care of it`s own. Which of course it is. Instead we have the situation where property is kept for investment, money-laundering or visa purposes and people are forced to sleep rough.

I`d be interested to know from someone with more knowledge the procedure for getting EU grants in the inner-cities.

Indeed - and one of the many things that surprised and horrified me was the extent of Leave voting in these inner-city areas that had benefited so much from such EU funding! Beggars belief that.......

[Billy Elliot]

What we think doesn't really matter. But what matters is, does Jeremy want to leave the EU?

I'm not a big fan of him, I've said that before.  I'd guess that his first choice was to remain in the EU and try to influence change from within.  I went to a Diem25 rally and was persuaded to vote remain on this basis, and I was pissed off that Corbyn wasn't there.  Why he was with a load of muppets arguing to remain on a completely different basis which he never seemed comfortable with is beyond me.  Still, if I was pressed on it and had to hazard a guess, I'd say that his first choice would be to remain.

Now that the vote is lost, I'd say he wants to leave the EU.

Then again, I don't like him so I don't care about what he personally wants.  I'll support him though, just like I've done for any other Labour leader in my lifetime.

If that makes me naive, so be it.  I'm a naive, loony, deluded Lexiteer.

[Sangria]

There you go Trada, from the mouth of the Labour Left. Jeremy wants to leave the EU. When you say that he's playing a blinder, is this what you mean?

[TheShanklyGates]

I'm not a big fan of him, I've said that before.  I'd guess that his first choice was to remain in the EU and try to influence change from within.  I went to a Diem25 rally and was persuaded to vote remain on this basis, and I was pissed off that Corbyn wasn't there.  Why he was with a load of muppets arguing to remain on a completely different basis which he never seemed comfortable with is beyond me.  Still, if I was pressed on it and had to hazard a guess, I'd say that his first choice would be to remain.

Now that the vote is lost, I'd say he wants to leave the EU.

Then again, I don't like him so I don't care about what he personally wants.  I'll support him though, just like I've done for any other Labour leader in my lifetime.

If that makes me naive, so be it.  I'm a naive, loony, deluded Lexiteer.

You don't like him, you don't care what he wants, but you support him anyway?

[Billy Elliot]

Although you're also correct about the failed policies, again, what are the EU meant to do - interfere with our governmental, democratic election procedures??

That's what they'll do if Labour get in (if we stayed in the EU).  They'll insist that the railways can't be nationalised unless if it goes out to tender, and they wont be too happy about the investment bank (if that's still on the table) either.

[wige]

Can I ask why this doesn’t seem like a big issue?  It’s just about as big as they come surely?

Specifically the freedom to work part. Freedom to work guarantees nothing and forces no-one to employ an EU citizen. I've heard the freedom to work part regularly as a terrible thing, sometime from business owners themselves. It seems to me that they had/have a choice whether to employ that individual or not and if they don't have UK born candidates then that talks more about the profession and UK based workforce, rather than immigration?

Free movement, and un-preventable immigration is a bigger issue and a fair concern I'd say. In a nutshell, I don't have an issue with freedom of movement, but do see and understand the concerns if that's used in a way to arrive and claim un-employment, housing or other benefits, for example. I think the bigger issue here, and I touched on it above, was the non-existent or weak arguments from the remain campaign taking on the immigration argument aggressively, championing the economic, cultural and societal benefits it brings.

[TheShanklyGates]

That's what they'll do if Labour get in (if we stayed in the EU).  They'll insist that the railways can't be nationalised unless if it goes out to tender, and they wont be too happy about the investment bank (if that's still on the table) either.

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/11/17/everything-you-need-to-know-about-lexit-in-five-minutes

There was nothing in the 2017 election manifesto that couldn't be done whilst an EU member.

And a link to the article quoted in that blog:

http://renewal.org.uk/blog/eu-law-is-no-barrier-to-labours-economic-programme

[filopastry]

That's what they'll do if Labour get in (if we stayed in the EU).  They'll insist that the railways can't be nationalised unless if it goes out to tender, and they wont be too happy about the investment bank (if that's still on the table) either.

I wasna't aware of any issue under EU law of taking the rail franchises back into public ownership as the current contracts expire, haven't we ended up doing that for short time periods already?

[Billy Elliot]

You don't like him, you don't care what he wants, but you support him anyway?

I  don't like a lot of his faffing about.  He's not the best Labour 'leader' ever.  He's pretty useless at getting his point across.

Although I'm not a big fan of him personally, I am a fan of his politics over that of the moderates.  I was a big fan of the manifesto, which I assumed he shaped.

[24/7]

All this does is remind me why I, a life-long Labour supporter, returned my membership card with a stinking rebuke of Corbyn's and Watson's abject failure to take into account the view of the vast majority of their own constituents, members and own MPs..........what a fucking shitshow.........best chance ever of crushing a Tory government and it can't be taken.........like a guaranteed repeat/hold function on three bells that just turned up, but without 10p to put in the machine.

[Alan_X]

That's what they'll do if Labour get in (if we stayed in the EU).  They'll insist that the railways can't be nationalised unless if it goes out to tender, and they wont be too happy about the investment bank (if that's still on the table) either.

The regional investment bank is based on the German model isn’t it?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/18/labour-vows-to-set-up-national-investment-bank-to-mobilise-500bn

And there are ways to bring the railways under national ownership within EU legislation. EU tenders aren’t just based on price unless you choose to do it that way. Set the quality criteria properly and even if it’s tendered there’s a good chance you end up with national ownership.

And frankly, if we’re throwing away everything to nationalise the railways, then I’d rather they stayed in private hands.

[Craig S]

That's what they'll do if Labour get in (if we stayed in the EU).  They'll insist that the railways can't be nationalised unless if it goes out to tender.

Erm: https://www.lner.co.uk/
Owner: Department of Transport, the Uk government.

This has been taken back into government ownership, from Virgin, in the last 6 months

[Zeb]

I`d be interested to know from someone with more knowledge the procedure for getting EU grants in the inner-cities.

Much of the money from the EU which has gone into central Manchester has been matching funding from the Regional Development Fund. Everything from building houses to renovating council stock to urban improvement and developing the tram network. I live in a ward literally just outside the very centre of Manchester and you couldn't miss the huge boards up with 'part funded by EU' all round when they doing up dozens of houses there.

Question as ever is why Westminster is so content to fuck off the north. Labour tried to shift things a bit under Blair/Brown (and you can point to its failures as well its successes) but as soon as Tories are back in we're back to watching the north/south divide manifest itself in even 'simple' things like impact of cuts to council funding*. Can understand the temptation to demand more local decision making powers but its worth not a lot if all you're doing is administering the cuts for Westminster. Or making temporary changes which will get rolled back pretty quickly the following election.

*IPPR has it that since 2010, in real terms, the North of England has seen public spending cut by £6.3bn while it's gone up by £3.2bn across the south.

[redbyrdz]

All this does is remind me why I, a life-long Labour supporter, returned my membership card with a stinking rebuke of Corbyn's and Watson's abject failure to take into account the view of the vast majority of their own constituents, members and own MPs..........what a fucking shitshow.........best chance ever of crushing a Tory government and it can't be taken.........like a guaranteed repeat/hold function on three bells that just turned up, but without 10p to put in the machine.

Its like you're the massive underdog in the cup final...the favourites have a couple of players sent off. You then refuse to attack, and don't play any of your subs, even though some of your players are just hobbling about injured.

[Billy Elliot]

Erm: https://www.lner.co.uk/
Owner: Department of Transport, the Uk government.

This has been taken back into government ownership, from Virgin, in the last 6 months

There's existing state aid rules around public investment, competition rules that only allow the state to take back privatised health services and public services if the public bid is successful in competitive tender, and is subject to regular competitive tender thereafter.

Plus there's the upcoming 4th Railway Package to be implemented next year. This will make competitive tendering mandatory for all rail.

[filopastry]

There's existing state aid rules around public investment, competition rules that only allow the state to take back privatised health services and public services if the public bid is successful in competitive tender, and is subject to regular competitive tender thereafter.

Plus there's the upcoming 4th Railway Package to be implemented next year. This will make competitive tendering mandatory for all rail.

And why would the public sector lose those tenders, we are routinely told how appalling a job the private sector is doing with rail and in the health service. If the public sector can deliver a better and/or cheaper service there won't be an issue, they have a starting advantage through not needing to make a profit for a start.

It will probably mark me out as the worst kind of neoliberal running dog, but if the public sector can't deliver better value for money than the private sector it shouldn't be running the service in the first place.

[24/7]

https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-46459904


Haha! Great ending to the piece though.....

"The Irish border and Brexit explained by @BorderIrish"

[oldfordie]

It's not that I don't agree with the sentiment - but surely to get to this there has to be some other sort of public vote - referendum or otherwise - before the government, parliament or a cross party group can legitimately revert the public's decision?

I'm not pretending that I'm anywhere near to being an expert in political process, but this is the highest profile political vote that I can remember - we're talking 70% turnout, close to 30% more than most general elections in my lifetime I believe. The result was to leave the EU. This was then followed up by a general election where a HUGE majority of seats in parliament were won by two parties who explicity promised to deliver Brexit in their manifestos.

It's similar to the above - I largely agree - being from London and specifically raised in Essex, I'm surrounded by Tory voters and leavers (though the first doesn't guarantee the second) - the vast majority don't understand the implications. Loads of the reasons I've been given behind people's votes have been nonsensical, basic, ill-informed and sometimes outright fucking stupid. That said, at the time of the vote, as a remainer, I didn't understand this debate or the implications, or the nuances to the degree I do now - I'd be stunned if that wasn't true for remainers and leavers up, down and across the country. Both campaigns during the referendum were terrible. The electorate, to my mind, was failed by both sides. Leave lied through it's teeth, remain was vacuous (I could go on here). Ultimately though, people looked at what evidence they had (or they didn't) and voted how they wanted to. Democracy doesn't demand that people are educated, intelligent or have based their votes on fact - it just gives people a single vote. That vote was to leave. I think that's a fucking travesty, I think it's fucking dumb. I think it should be reversed, but I think that has to be done via a mechanism or path that is democratic. How that is done is a complete clusterfuck.

The referendum was corrupt, if this was a legally binding referendum that Parliament had to repsect then the courts had the power to void it. the argument to respect the result of the referendum is about the public loosing faith in our democracy. am afraid millions of people have already lost faith in our democracy, they've seen the PM threatening the HOL, judges called the enemy of the people, remain MPs classed as enemies of the people. Democracy has been trampled over the last 2yrs, I really haven't got much respect for that referendum or the lying politicians who played games with the countries future. I wouldn't dignify it by arguing we must respect the result.

[Jiminy Cricket]

That’s literally (more or less) true, but it’s because the UK and Ireland have a common travel area (though in practice there are checks on the ferries, many an illegal migrant gets picked up that way).

But freedom of movement isn’t really about actual movement, it’s about freedom to work.  If Brexit happens in any meaningful sense, it will remove that freedom from EU nationals who want to come to the UK to do so.  And technically from UK nationals who might want to do so in the EU, pfft as if that would ever happen.

OK. I see, I think. Thinking around the edges of that (EU nationals becoming established in NI, etc.) - I can some problems straight off. Such as, they would not be allowed to travel in the rUK. Hardly seems very equitable.

[wige]

The referendum was corrupt, if this was a legally binding referendum that Parliament had to repsect then the courts had the power to void it. the argument to respect the result of the referendum is about the public loosing faith in our democracy. am afraid millions of people have already lost faith in our democracy, they've seen the PM threatening the HOL, judges called the enemy of the people, remain MPs classed as enemies of the people. Democracy has been trampled over the last 2yrs, I really haven't got much respect for that referendum or the lying politicians who played games with the countries future. I wouldn't dignify it by arguing we must respect the result.

Those first four words are killer. Maybe a supreme court voiding the referendum is a solution here?

The rest of that:

the PM threatening the HOL, judges called the enemy of the people, remain MPs classed as enemies of the people.

Isn't this our democracy in action? It might be harsh, it might be bullshit*, it might be aggressive, divisive and wrong, but people are entitled to their opinion, they're entitled to freedom of speech, and public discourse is the means in which our parliamentary democracy debates, influences and wins the right to govern?

*Think we have libel laws to prevent this, but never sure what qualifies or doesn't.

[J_Kopite]

Scotland would be either in EU fully or at least in EFTA/EEA with freedom of movement so it depends on what happesn with UK's agreement with EU but Scotland wold almost certainly have a pretty open immigration policy as we need immigrants, and I suspect we would remain in the CTA with rUK and Ireland. It is in everyone's interest.

Why would the EU allow that?

[Trada]

There you go Trada, from the mouth of the Labour Left. Jeremy wants to leave the EU. When you say that he's playing a blinder, is this what you mean?

Its said in the Labour Manifesto that Labour would respect the outcome of the referendum. Its nothing new.

[Jiminy Cricket]

If I were a leader of one of the EU27, I'd make it clear I'd be vetoing any future relationship between the UK and EU if the UK pulled this trick. Treating Article 50 like it's the save option in a video game, allowing you to go back to an earlier point because you didn't collect all the tokens in the next level is an breathtaking example of pisstakery.

Have the fucking balls to admit Brexit is a shit idea altogether, rather than expect the EU to endure further instability because we pretended that unicorns were real for the first 2 and a half years.

I believe that the preliminary judgment from the ECJ made comment about 'good faith' retraction of A50. It implied that the UK would not be able to invoke and revoke A50 to our heart's content.

[Sangria]

Its said in the Labour Manifesto that Labour would respect the outcome of the referendum. Its nothing new.

So what's the blinder that Jeremy is playing? What's his endgame vis a vis Europe?

[Iska]

Specifically the freedom to work part. Freedom to work guarantees nothing and forces no-one to employ an EU citizen.

It guarantees that you can try though.  If the UK economy downturns, you can go to Amsterdam and try your luck there; or if you have an idea for a start-up you can join that community in Berlin.  Or you can marry a Spaniard and move to Spain with her.  It doesn’t guarantee jobs, no, but it vastly expands the pool of jobs you can look for.

I think we’re looking at it completely differently and I don’t really get where you’re coming from.  But I also think the public would be on your side, not mine.  I guess I’m howling into the wind again about this just never getting any traction.  It’s probably as simple as most British people never imagining that they’d ever want to do it.

[Iska]

Why would the EU allow that?

Why wouldn’t it?  Nothing he says is against EU law.

[wige]

It guarantees that you can try though.  If the UK economy downturns, you can go to Amsterdam and try your luck there; or if you have an idea for a start-up you can join that community in Berlin.  Or you can marry a Spaniard and move to Spain with her.  It doesn’t guarantee jobs, no, but it vastly expands the pool of jobs you can look for.

I think we’re looking at it completely differently and I don’t really get where you’re coming from.  But I also think the public would be on your side, not mine.  I guess I’m howling into the wind again about this just never getting any traction.  It’s probably as simple as most British people never imagining that they’d ever want to do it.

I was saying that I never really understood why leavers/brexiteers complained about the freedom to work and that that argument made no sense to me. Like you say, they had the freedom to try, and employers had the freedom to say no.

[oldfordie]

Those first four words are killer. Maybe a supreme court voiding the referendum is a solution here?

The rest of that:

Isn't this our democracy in action? It might be harsh, it might be bullshit*, it might be aggressive, divisive and wrong, but people are entitled to their opinion, they're entitled to freedom of speech, and public discourse is the means in which our parliamentary democracy debates, influences and wins the right to govern?

*Think we have libel laws to prevent this, but never sure what qualifies or doesn't.

Were back to being told we have to respect a advisory referendum by people who don't deserve respect. I think it went far further than being aggressive or nasty, leave MPs resorted to McCarthyism to ridicule and threaten all who stand in their way. politics went into the gutter over the last 2 yrs.
I know politicians will always lie but they went too far this time, a few will pay the price for this at the next GE. a message has to be sent.