Topic: The Klopp Template

[PhaseOfPlay]

Shaqiri is as rapid as Mane and Salah?

That's not what you said, though. You said "Shaqiri doesn't fit the profile", but the profile for Mane and Salah is "Speed and Mobility". Shaqiri has speed and mobility. Therefore he fits the profile.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Just to take the piss, you could've only written that and nobody would've batted an eyelid 

I came to that realization once I finished writing everything else 

[BrandoLFC]

In other words, I am not sure what your point is.

Then what was your point?  You responded to my post by saying we should be buying the next Mane, Bobby or Salah.  Is that now, next season or many seasons down the road?  The only reason to buy those players now would be for cover unless you're saying we can replace one of those three now.  So what is it?

I'm making the point that we don't have the money to solve everything at any one time.  Your response is we do? 

[Bjornar]

That's not what you said, though. You said "Shaqiri doesn't fit the profile", but the profile for Mane and Salah is "Speed and Mobility". Shaqiri has speed and mobility. Therefore he fits the profile.

While Shaqiri helps, we have lost Oxlade-Chamberlain for the season who I`d argue also fits that profile (even though central midfield is his best position), as well as Coutinho last January. So overall we look about as light there as last season as far as squad depth is concerned.

What I`m slightly worried about is that if we lose two of our front three for a prolonged amount of time, we could witness something a bit like what happened to the Rodgers team after losing Suarez and Sturridge - that the team doesn`t just merely miss the quality of those players, but also go through an "identity crisis" due to no longer being able to play the same style.

(Not trying to be negative here, we have a fantastic team and manager, so what I`m talking about is being prepared also for a worst case scenario, not how I actually think the season most likely will look like) 

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Then what was your point?  You responded to my post by saying we should be buying the next Mane, Bobby or Salah.  Is that now, next season or many seasons down the road?  The only reason to buy those players now would be for cover unless you're saying we can replace one of those three now.  So what is it?

I'm making the point that we don't have the money to solve everything at any one time.  Your response is we do?

Err my point was we don't have to buy Mbappe type of players to have success. And I am not saying that we should replace the front three, I said we can sign players of their ilk and quality, when we signed them, they could be midfielders,defenders,whatever, it wasn't a particular position I was discussing, i was talking about the level of talent and what we could buy, I used the front three as an example.

We have the money. The problem isn't the money the problem is availability and the fit of the side. We can't sign Mbappe but we don't need to sign a player like him to be successful. We didn't sign Fekir because of underlying medical issue, not because we were skint.

Not every player is available for variety of reasons and not every player suits this club and the manager. So money isn't the issue why we can't solve every problem right away

[deFacto please, you bastards]

While Shaqiri helps, we have lost Oxlade-Chamberlain for the season who I`d argue also fits that profile (even though central midfield is his best position), as well as Coutinho last January. So overall we look about as light there as last season as far as squad depth is concerned.

What I`m slightly worried about is that if we lose two of our front three for a prolonged amount of time, we could witness something a bit like what happened to the Rodgers team after losing Suarez and Sturridge - that the team doesn`t just merely miss the quality of those players, but also go through an "identity crisis" due to no longer being able to play the same style.

(Not trying to be negative here, we have a fantastic team and manager, so what I`m talking about is being prepared also for a worst case scenario, not how I actually think the season most likely will look like)

This team and the manager has showed flexibility and ability to adapt and change when needed to. The last run in of the season was a problem because we had semi-finals and a final in our mind, and we were playing intense matches in a short period of time.

We are better equipped this year than last year, mostly due to Keita and Shaqiri, and if Lallana is fit, he helps massively.

[PhaseOfPlay]

While Shaqiri helps, we have lost Oxlade-Chamberlain for the season who I`d argue also fits that profile (even though central midfield is his best position), as well as Coutinho last January. So overall we look about as light there as last season as far as squad depth is concerned.

What I`m slightly worried about is that if we lose two of our front three for a prolonged amount of time, we could witness something a bit like what happened to the Rodgers team after losing Suarez and Sturridge - that the team doesn`t just merely miss the quality of those players, but also go through an "identity crisis" due to no longer being able to play the same style.

(Not trying to be negative here, we have a fantastic team and manager, so what I`m talking about is being prepared also for a worst case scenario, not how I actually think the season most likely will look like)

Players aren't positions, though. As long as the skill set fits the area of the field and the task required, we can be quite flexible - and Klopp has shown that he lives by this as well.

[catinthebag]

That's not what you said, though. You said "Shaqiri doesn't fit the profile", but the profile for Mane and Salah is "Speed and Mobility". Shaqiri has speed and mobility. Therefore he fits the profile.

Great! My mistake, apologies all round, back to lurking on the forums rather than posting.

Actually who cares what I said. It's just an opinion. I hope you are right--I only want the best for the team and it doesn't really matter to me if I'm proven right or you are. If that makes us both happy, it'll be great. 

[Bobinhood]

Whoever goes down anywhere, we play Trent there and he does better than the first guy.

such a simple game this 

[PhaseOfPlay]

Great! My mistake, apologies all round, back to lurking on the forums rather than posting.

Actually who cares what I said. It's just an opinion. I hope you are right--I only want the best for the team and it doesn't really matter to me if I'm proven right or you are. If that makes us both happy, it'll be great. 

It sure will.

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

Great! My mistake, apologies all round, back to lurking on the forums rather than posting.

Actually who cares what I said. It's just an opinion. I hope you are right--I only want the best for the team and it doesn't really matter to me if I'm proven right or you are. If that makes us both happy, it'll be great. 

In your defence, I was working at Stoke City in the week and everyone I asked about Shaqiri, without fail, said that he is deceptively slow. He seems to have a reputation as someone who is quick given his size and position but I guess that isn’t the case. He’s probably closer to being a bulkier, stronger Lallana than he is to being a Salah/Mane.

[PoetryInMotion]

In your defence, I was working at Stoke City in the week and everyone I asked about Shaqiri, without fail, said that he is deceptively slow. He seems to have a reputation as someone who is quick given his size and position but I guess that isn’t the case. He’s probably closer to being a bulkier, stronger Lallana than he is to being a Salah/Mane.

He's way quicker than Lallana. Only thing that needs to be managed is fatigue. He's quick over short distances, dribbles the ball past defenses. The problem is the more tired he gets, the less he attempts to run past. And I'm not talking about fatigue over an individual game, but accumulated fatigue. So, rotation is going to be important, it helped in the last season and it would've helped even more if we didn't have some unlucky contact injuries (even with the later stages of CL).

As for the profiles of players, I think Shaqiri fits Mane's profile the most (although it makes things lob-sided, because he's left footed and likes to cut-in from the right). He can replace Salah in one-off games and come on from the bench and do a job, but he doesn't 'fit' Salah's profile as he's more of a creator than a goalscorer. The 2nd position be suits most is Ox's provided he can adjust to defensive responsibilities.

[DanA]

That's not what you said, though. You said "Shaqiri doesn't fit the profile", but the profile for Mane and Salah is "Speed and Mobility". Shaqiri has speed and mobility. Therefore he fits the profile.

Mane and Salah are a different profile of athlete. They are some of the highest in the premier league in terms of sprint efforts and top speed. This game suggests Shaqiri has some of the worst down there with Charlie Adam and Peter Crouch.

[Djozer]

In your defence, I was working at Stoke City in the week and everyone I asked about Shaqiri, without fail, said that he is deceptively slow. He seems to have a reputation as someone who is quick given his size and position but I guess that isn’t the case. He’s probably closer to being a bulkier, stronger Lallana than he is to being a Salah/Mane.

Saw some YouTube podcast about the signing and they had a Stoke fan on, and he was saying he wasn't sure about Shaq in our system because he wasn't exactly the quickest. Think he's got good acceleration but only decent top speed and that's about it. Maybe that's all he needs, and he's got other qualities too, but he doesn't seem like the type to burn past players. FWIW, the Stoke guy on the podcast reckoned he did his best work centrally as a 10 for them.

It's not a massive deal, and it's not like he's incredibly slow either, but I do think our squad is missing pacy backup in the attacking positions still. Wonder if Brewster can go some way towards providing this when he gets back, but otherwise it's an area we're a bit short in.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Saw some YouTube podcast about the signing and they had a Stoke fan on, and he was saying he wasn't sure about Shaq in our system because he wasn't exactly the quickest. Think he's got good acceleration but only decent top speed and that's about it. Maybe that's all he needs, and he's got other qualities too, but he doesn't seem like the type to burn past players. FWIW, the Stoke guy on the podcast reckoned he did his best work centrally as a 10 for them.

It's not a massive deal, and it's not like he's incredibly slow either, but I do think our squad is missing pacy backup in the attacking positions still. Wonder if Brewster can go some way towards providing this when he gets back, but otherwise it's an area we're a bit short in.

He's not running the 100m sprint

He needs acceleration over 10-40 yards, and that's it. And he has that.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/ryX5kcMrGIc" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/ryX5kcMrGIc</a>

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/39U99rmBRBg" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/39U99rmBRBg</a>

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/iGbjOZNpr4E" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/iGbjOZNpr4E</a>

[PhaseOfPlay]

Mane and Salah are a different profile of athlete. They are some of the highest in the premier league in terms of sprint efforts and top speed. This game suggests Shaqiri has some of the worst down there with Charlie Adam and Peter Crouch.

That can't be your evidence, Dan. One game, for 57 minutes, out of context?

Over what distance is the speed measured?

Was it with or without the ball?

Was it an attacking run or a defensive recovery run?

Etc.

There's visual evidence that he's faster than a lot of the defenders he faces. And that's as fast as he needs to be.

[PoetryInMotion]

Mane and Salah are a different profile of athlete. They are some of the highest in the premier league in terms of sprint efforts and top speed. This game suggests Shaqiri has some of the worst down there with Charlie Adam and Peter Crouch.

So, taking the distance covered in one game is now the solution to the discussion?

Also pace doesn't mean making the longest distances or even the most sprints. He picks his moments. He has good acceleration over small distances to beat players and that's good enough to play the wide positions (but not Salah's goalscoring role), considering his creativity as well.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Klopp on Shaqiri:

“He has speed and ability, has the right amount of arrogance on the football pitch, real bravery to want the ball and influence things. To play for us these are mandatory requirements.”

Somebody is getting this all wrong here

[PhaseOfPlay]

And again - he's at least faster than Firmino:

[Hazell]

And again - he's at least faster than Firmino:

Wow, Firmino's stats are ridiculous. I do remember there was talk this time last year about how we need someone else up front, not much of it this year thankfully.

[DanA]

And again - he's at least faster than Firmino:

It's encouraging that he's covering quite a bit of distance there. But when has anyone said Firmino is quick? He's fantastic as a CF for us but I don't really like it when Firmino plays on the wing......he's too slow.

[PhaseOfPlay]

It's encouraging that he's covering quite a bit of distance there. But when has anyone said Firmino is quick? He's fantastic as a CF for us but I don't really like it when Firmino plays on the wing......he's too slow.

I would say, though - don't look at "mph" for speed comparisons. I'd rather look at 40yd times, with 10 and 20yd splits. That would give a better picture of how quick the players are, in more football-related terms.

[DanA]

So, taking the distance covered in one game is now the solution to the discussion?

Also pace doesn't mean making the longest distances or even the most sprints. He picks his moments. He has good acceleration over small distances to beat players and that's good enough to play the wide positions (but not Salah's goalscoring role), considering his creativity as well.

I never said distance covered. I said sprint efforts and top speed and it was indicative of him being a different profile of an athlete. He has acceleration over short areas.....sure. And you can interpret that as quick. But you can't tell me he's the same type of athlete as Mane or Salah because he's simply not.

[Magix]

Doesn't Shaqiri pass the eye test quite easily in the PL anyway? He beats his fair number of people.

[DanA]

I would say, though - don't look at "mph" for speed comparisons. I'd rather look at 40yd times, with 10 and 20yd splits. That would give a better picture of how quick the players are, in more football-related terms.

And I agree acceleration is more important but Salah and Mane have both. Shaqiri does not.

[Chalky Boots]

It's encouraging that he's covering quite a bit of distance there. But when has anyone said Firmino is quick? He's fantastic as a CF for us but I don't really like it when Firmino plays on the wing......he's too slow.

It is, it does mean that he has good stamina and speed but he's obviously way down on sprints which is more important than distance; but I do believe that has more to do with tactics than his own characteristics.

[PhaseOfPlay]

And I agree acceleration is more important but Salah and Mane have both. Shaqiri does not.

Definitively?

[PhaseOfPlay]

I never said distance covered. I said sprint efforts and top speed and it was indicative of him being a different profile of an athlete. He has acceleration over short areas.....sure. And you can interpret that as quick. But you can't tell me he's the same type of athlete as Mane or Salah because he's simply not.

That's because it is

[NHRed]

It is, it does mean that he has good stamina and speed but he's obviously way down on sprints which is more important than distance; but I do believe that has more to do with tactics than his own characteristics.

Agree with you that Stoke as a whole don't (have never, will never, really) played with our kind of pace, so Shaq didn't need to sprint as frequently.

So it's down to, if he increases the number of sprints by a significant amount, what happens to his overall endurance and recovery between sprints? 

There's no evidence he can't, but it's unproven that he will adapt to Liverpool's pace.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Agree with you that Stoke as a whole don't (have never, will never, really) played with our kind of pace, so Shaq didn't need to sprint as frequently.

So it's down to, if he increases the number of sprints by a significant amount, what happens to his overall endurance and recovery between sprints? 

There's no evidence he can't, but it's unproven that he will adapt to Liverpool's pace.

That's what aerobic training is for

[DanA]

Definitively?

You just quoted top speed for an entire year. That's pretty definitive.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Some of you need to watch football a bit more with clearer vision.

[PhaseOfPlay]

You just quoted top speed for an entire year. That's pretty definitive.

It really isn't. For example, was he coming off an injury, what kind of training was he doing at Stoke, was speed work optimal, was he constantly fatigued from training, etc.

I wouldn't say definitely that Shaqiri "doesn't have speed". I think that's fallacious. He might not be as fast as Mane or Salah, but he's not far off. But that's also beside the point, I think. He doesn't have to be as fast as them. He has to be faster than the opposition defenders, and I don't think that's something we can doubt.

I also quoted it to show that "MPH" is not really a great way to judge speed in football. We had your example which showed a lower MPH, and my example which showed a higher one, so there can be a lot of variance with that measurement I think. Unless we can see his yards per second numbers or its variations, we won't really know HOW fast he is, in football terms.

Acceleration is speed. He has acceleration, therefore he has speed. Has he got speed over distance? I'm certainly not sure, but I've seen him sprint over 50 yards, and he's not been caught while doing it. Does he have speed repeatability? That's the million dollar question, but if he doesn't, it's certainly easy to train (although as I think you pointed out before - it's subject to genetic limitations).

[red1977]

Jurgen Klopp is a god.

[hesbighesred]

What I`m slightly worried about is that if we lose two of our front three for a prolonged amount of time, we could witness something a bit like what happened to the Rodgers team after losing Suarez and Sturridge - that the team doesn`t just merely miss the quality of those players, but also go through an "identity crisis" due to no longer being able to play the same style.

There'd certainly be a drop-off in quality but there's no chance of an identity crisis under Klopp.

The massive difference is that Rodgers' style for the club was totally dependent on those players - therefore without them, there was no style, no system.
Under Klopp, the players look as good as they do because the system brings it out of them. Take them away and we'd still have the same style, even if it weren't quite as effective. Put those players in a different club and they wouldn't look as effective, either.

[plura]

He's not running the 100m sprint

He needs acceleration over 10-40 yards, and that's it. And he has that.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/ryX5kcMrGIc" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/ryX5kcMrGIc</a>

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/39U99rmBRBg" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/39U99rmBRBg</a>

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/iGbjOZNpr4E" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/iGbjOZNpr4E</a>

He's gonna score a good few goals for us this season, especially later in the games as the opponents gets tired. The Swiss/Albanian bull!


BTW it's a sad read in the comments for that last video where Serbs and Albanian internet warriors hate on each other and compare how many people each country have killed of the other's.

[jepovic]

All teams have key players, whose absence lowers the overall quality. It's inevitable unless you have a complete squad of average players.

To win the league, we need a bit of luck with injuries.

[PoetryInMotion]

I never said distance covered. I said sprint efforts and top speed and it was indicative of him being a different profile of an athlete. He has acceleration over short areas.....sure. And you can interpret that as quick. But you can't tell me he's the same type of athlete as Mane or Salah because he's simply not.

Oh, neither did I tell you that. He just doesn't need to make as many sprints to be a wide player. Wide players primarily need acceleration over short distances. And surprisingly Shaqiri also covers a lot of distance overall without clocking sprints. That means he's putting in the work, a good trait for a Klopp side. He has always been a wide player, so now we're questioning his position when he's 26? And he showed he can play through the middle yesterday in a kind of free-role. For me, he ticks all the boxes we need.

[PoetryInMotion]

It really isn't. For example, was he coming off an injury, what kind of training was he doing at Stoke, was speed work optimal, was he constantly fatigued from training, etc.

I wouldn't say definitely that Shaqiri "doesn't have speed". I think that's fallacious. He might not be as fast as Mane or Salah, but he's not far off. But that's also beside the point, I think. He doesn't have to be as fast as them. He has to be faster than the opposition defenders, and I don't think that's something we can doubt.

I also quoted it to show that "MPH" is not really a great way to judge speed in football. We had your example which showed a lower MPH, and my example which showed a higher one, so there can be a lot of variance with that measurement I think. Unless we can see his yards per second numbers or its variations, we won't really know HOW fast he is, in football terms.

Acceleration is speed. He has acceleration, therefore he has speed. Has he got speed over distance? I'm certainly not sure, but I've seen him sprint over 50 yards, and he's not been caught while doing it. Does he have speed repeatability? That's the million dollar question, but if he doesn't, it's certainly easy to train (although as I think you pointed out before - it's subject to genetic limitations).

If his entire argument is that you've to be as fast as Mane and Salah or be the exact type of players they're to be successful as a wide player, then he's either smoking stuff or is lost in the clouds, somewhere in his own world.

[PoetryInMotion]

There'd certainly be a drop-off in quality but there's no chance of an identity crisis under Klopp.

The massive difference is that Rodgers' style for the club was totally dependent on those players - therefore without them, there was no style, no system.
Under Klopp, the players look as good as they do because the system brings it out of them. Take them away and we'd still have the same style, even if it weren't quite as effective. Put those players in a different club and they wouldn't look as effective, either.

Good point. Yesterday, we made a host of subs at two points, half-time and somewhere with 20-15 minutes to go, and at all times we played with the same style. Players came in and played like they've been on the pitch the entire game.